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Re: Drus Griutunge

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  • ualarauans
    ... Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I m flattered and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks. /allaim inu hrabna/
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
      >
      > [...]
      > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!

      Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
      and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.

      /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
      something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
      the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
      allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?

      Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
      could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?

      /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
      Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
      unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?

      /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
      just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
      translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
      alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?

      /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
      their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?

      /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
      shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?

      /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
      with the bolts"
      and
      /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
      [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
      intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
      to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
      any examples?

      /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
      dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
      Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?

      /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
      above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?

      And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
      lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!

      Ualarauans
    • llama_nom
      ... Correction, thou might doesn t, but other verbs do. There seems to be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least: For though thou
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
        >
        > [...] however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
        > Bible as subjunctive

        Correction, 'thou might' doesn't, but other verbs do. There seems to
        be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least:

        For though thou wash thee with nitre

        Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee
        with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in
        vain shalt thou make thyself fair;

        though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again,

        though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away,
        __________________________________________________________

        Thanks for the extra comments - and the extra praise! It would be a
        poorer poem without your help. I'll have a proper look through them
        tomorrow. Just a couple of replies: 'unhulþo' and 'skohsl', though
        feminine and neuter respectively, are each found with a masculine
        adjective on occasion (Mt 9:33, Mk 8:31; and cf. Mk 3:22 þamma
        reikistin unhulþono)--see Streitberg 236.1. But, given the story, it
        might be better to make them explicitly male, 'miþ unhulþam'. You're
        right about 'funsana' and 'gadauþniþ' and 'haubida'...
      • ualarauans
        To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there s an attested word Skwþus translating SKUQHS
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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          To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a
          more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there's an attested word
          Skwþus translating SKUQHS "Scythian" in Col. 3:11, but this clearly
          was a newly borrowed name, unheard of before the Bible translation.
          When we are dealing with parts of Getica that apparently go back to
          the lost Gothic epics (such as the story of the migration into Oium,
          for example) and mention "Scythia" and "Scythians", a native Gothic
          term is to be found. In fact, Jordanes recorded several East
          European ethnonyms in the form presumably close to spoken Gothic
          variant: these are e. g. Antes (Go. *Anteis pl.) and Spali (Go.
          *Spalos or *Spalans pl.). Further there is the list of peoples
          conquered by Ermanaric in Getica 116 where the mysterious
          Golthescytha thiudos are mentioned. The most plausible of many
          different interpretations of this name first suggested by von
          Grienberger (1895) and supported by Stender-Petersen (1927) and
          Korkkanen (1975) views it as a Latino-Gothic hybrid Gotth[a]e or
          Gotth[ic]e Scytha-thiudos, that is "Scythian peoples [subjected] to
          the Goth (= Ermanaric)" or "peoples of Scythia in the Gothic
          language". This is followed with eleven heavily distorted names of
          these peoples. The word Scytha-thiudos pl. (cf. Gut-þiuda) seems to
          comprehend the element Skwþa-, but this is most likely a later
          conjecture made by Cassiodorus or Jordanes.

          Currently there are several suggested etymologies of the name of
          Scythians. The one I find most convincing explains Greek SKUQAI as a
          phonetic approximation of OIr. *Skuda- or *Skuða- derived from the
          PIE stem *skeu(d)- "to throw", "to shoot", "to push". Scythians are
          thus "archers" literally (see for details Oswald Szemerenyi's Four
          Old Iranian Ethnic Names:..., 1980:20ff). The Germanic reflex of the
          same stem is PG *skeutan "to shoot", "to cast a missile" >
          ON skjóta, OE scéotan, OHG skiozan, Crimean Gothic schieten etc.
          The attested nomen agentis in the historical languages – ON skyti,
          OE scytta, OHG skuzzo – points towards
          PG *skutjan- M.-an "shooter", "archer" (ibid.), but cf.
          ON andskoti "opponent", "adversary" which < *anda-skutan-, lit.
          "one who shoots back (or against smb.)", without -j- in the suffix.
          Hence we can reconstruct Go. *skiutan st. v. 2 "to shoot"; *skutja
          M.-an "archer" and its variant *skuta M.-an. The last form is the
          closest analogue of the Scythians' ethnonym possible. Semantically
          it's a perfect designation for a people of steppe nomads with
          mounted archers comprising next to 100% of its war power.

          By the time of the Gothic migrations the epoch of the Scythians
          dominating the steppes north of the Black Sea was long over. They
          had been effectively replaced by kindred Iranian-speaking tribes of
          Sarmatians, Alans, Iazyges and others. Their ethnonym must have gone
          away with them, although the Graeco-Roman authors continued to use
          it indiscriminately for all nomadic peoples of the Northeast,
          including the Goths. Thus we are far from being sure of an immediate
          genetic succession between Scythian self-name *Skuða-ta pl. and
          hypothetical Go. *Skutans. If the latter was ever used for Iranian
          (and probably Hunnish as well) neighbors of the Goths, it could well
          have occured independently. Still, for translation purposes I'd
          suggest *Skutans and *Skuta-þiuda (*Skuta-land), not Skwþus and its
          derivatives, whenever it comes to render Scythae and Scythia in the
          passages of Getica taken from the Gothic oral tradition.

          Ualarauans

          P.S. To compare with *Skuta-þiuda is OHG folk
          sceotantero "Schützenvolk" in Hildebrandslied 51.
        • llama_nom
          ... You re right, as usual :-) I ve replaced inu with alja . ... Well, we have got awiliudon , supposing the first element of that is from the same root?
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
            > >
            > > [...]
            > > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
            >
            > Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
            > and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.
            >
            > /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
            > something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
            > the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
            > allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?


            You're right, as usual :-) I've replaced 'inu' with 'alja'.



            > Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
            > could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?


            Well, we have got 'awiliudon', supposing the first element of that is
            from the same root?


            > /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
            > Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
            > unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?


            Changed to 'unhulþam' as you suggest to emphasise that they're male.


            > /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
            > just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
            > translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
            > alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?


            I think either would fit the meaning (cf. 2Cor 13:5), but I've changed
            to 'unfraisan' for the sake of the extra gratuitous alliteration.


            > /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
            > their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?


            Changed to 'Hilms gulþahrudans / ni sat ana haubida im'. I think
            'haubidam' would be possible, but for singuar, see 'ni indrobnai izwar
            hairto' = hUMWN hE KARDIA (J 14:1); 'iþ hairto ize' = hE de KARDIA
            AUTWN (Mk 7:6) = KJB 'their heart' = Icelandic 'hjarta þeirra'.
            Google turns up lots of examples of Icelandic 'í/á/yfir höfði þeirra',
            and in st. 60 of the Old Norse Sólarljóð, we find:

            Marga menn
            sá ek moldar gengna,
            þá er eigi máttu þjónustu ná;
            heiðnar stjörnur
            stóðu yfir höfði þeim
            fáðar feiknstöfum.

            "I saw many dead men who could not take service [with God]. Heathen
            stars stood over their head[s], painted with evil letters/runes."


            > /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
            > shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?


            You're right.


            > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
            > with the bolts"
            > and
            > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
            > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
            > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
            > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
            > any examples?
            >
            > /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
            > dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
            > Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?


            I was trying to get across the idea that Audika (indulging in a bit of
            traditional flyting before the battle) is telling Ibra that he (Ibra)
            is fey, i.e. locked into a feverish or trance-like state of mind where
            his every choice seems to bring death closer, as if he's
            subconsciously working towards his own destruction, and so there's no
            helping him, and it shows in the fact that his mind's on ancient
            glories and tales rather than on the practical realities of the
            chahged political situation.

            http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0149.png


            > /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
            > above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?


            The plural was deliberate. The nameless grey-haired warrior is on the
            side of the Huns and Gothic rebels against Airmanareiks. He's
            addressing the forces loyal to Airmanareiks, currently holed up in
            their fortified settlement (Ibra and his men). I think he's probably
            a certain god (harjonds, from the same root as Herjan) who famously
            turns up at such moments to ensure the battle goes according to his
            inscrutable plans. He goads the defenders into leaving their position
            of strength and coming out to fight in the open against superior
            numbers; he also drops a hint to the attackers clues about how to get
            them out if they refuse (cf. the end of Völsunga saga), although he
            knows they won't. The reference to fire and enchantment was meant to
            be an allusion to the story in Guta saga of the founding of Gotland
            and how the spell that caused the island to sink every day was lifted
            with fire; so he's invoking a memory of the very beginning of Gothic
            history here at what must seem to the participants as something like
            the end.


            > And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
            > lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!


            Þagk þus fairhaita, Walhahrabn, jah allaim fairni-liuþarjam þaim
            þizeei *hugisahtins (ideas) ik skandalaus hlaf!
          • llama_nom
            ... This isn t quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the passive was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus and the active intransitive hve
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
              >
              > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
              > with the bolts"
              > and
              > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
              > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
              > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
              > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
              > any examples?

              This isn't quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the
              passive 'was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus' and the active
              intransitive 'hve wasjaima', 'gawasjam sarwam liuhadis', 'ni wasjaiþ
              twaim paidom'. Or 'agisa mikillamma dishaibaida wesun' : 'ohtedun
              agisa mikilamma'. But can we generalise from that to other uses of
              the dative? I'll see if I can find a closer match somewhere. Or
              would a preposition help: miþ, fram, af?
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