Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Translating Getica (cerva) + Drus Griutunge

Expand Messages
  • llama_nom
    ... but -wiseis will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any reason to favour one over the other? Revised to Jah Wulþuwiseis x / x / (x) (Sievers
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      >> /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
      >> that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
      >> parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
      >> *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

      > Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
      but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
      reason to favour one over the other?

      Revised to 'Jah Wulþuwiseis' x / x / (x) (Sievers type B), on the
      principle "if there's no indication otherwise, tribes can be i-stems".
    • ualarauans
      ... Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I m flattered and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks. /allaim inu hrabna/
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
        >
        > [...]
        > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!

        Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
        and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.

        /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
        something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
        the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
        allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?

        Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
        could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?

        /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
        Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
        unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?

        /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
        just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
        translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
        alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?

        /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
        their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?

        /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
        shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?

        /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
        with the bolts"
        and
        /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
        [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
        intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
        to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
        any examples?

        /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
        dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
        Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?

        /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
        above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?

        And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
        lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!

        Ualarauans
      • llama_nom
        ... Correction, thou might doesn t, but other verbs do. There seems to be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least: For though thou
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
          >
          > [...] however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
          > Bible as subjunctive

          Correction, 'thou might' doesn't, but other verbs do. There seems to
          be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least:

          For though thou wash thee with nitre

          Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee
          with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in
          vain shalt thou make thyself fair;

          though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again,

          though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away,
          __________________________________________________________

          Thanks for the extra comments - and the extra praise! It would be a
          poorer poem without your help. I'll have a proper look through them
          tomorrow. Just a couple of replies: 'unhulþo' and 'skohsl', though
          feminine and neuter respectively, are each found with a masculine
          adjective on occasion (Mt 9:33, Mk 8:31; and cf. Mk 3:22 þamma
          reikistin unhulþono)--see Streitberg 236.1. But, given the story, it
          might be better to make them explicitly male, 'miþ unhulþam'. You're
          right about 'funsana' and 'gadauþniþ' and 'haubida'...
        • ualarauans
          To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there s an attested word Skwþus translating SKUQHS
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a
            more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there's an attested word
            Skwþus translating SKUQHS "Scythian" in Col. 3:11, but this clearly
            was a newly borrowed name, unheard of before the Bible translation.
            When we are dealing with parts of Getica that apparently go back to
            the lost Gothic epics (such as the story of the migration into Oium,
            for example) and mention "Scythia" and "Scythians", a native Gothic
            term is to be found. In fact, Jordanes recorded several East
            European ethnonyms in the form presumably close to spoken Gothic
            variant: these are e. g. Antes (Go. *Anteis pl.) and Spali (Go.
            *Spalos or *Spalans pl.). Further there is the list of peoples
            conquered by Ermanaric in Getica 116 where the mysterious
            Golthescytha thiudos are mentioned. The most plausible of many
            different interpretations of this name first suggested by von
            Grienberger (1895) and supported by Stender-Petersen (1927) and
            Korkkanen (1975) views it as a Latino-Gothic hybrid Gotth[a]e or
            Gotth[ic]e Scytha-thiudos, that is "Scythian peoples [subjected] to
            the Goth (= Ermanaric)" or "peoples of Scythia in the Gothic
            language". This is followed with eleven heavily distorted names of
            these peoples. The word Scytha-thiudos pl. (cf. Gut-þiuda) seems to
            comprehend the element Skwþa-, but this is most likely a later
            conjecture made by Cassiodorus or Jordanes.

            Currently there are several suggested etymologies of the name of
            Scythians. The one I find most convincing explains Greek SKUQAI as a
            phonetic approximation of OIr. *Skuda- or *Skuða- derived from the
            PIE stem *skeu(d)- "to throw", "to shoot", "to push". Scythians are
            thus "archers" literally (see for details Oswald Szemerenyi's Four
            Old Iranian Ethnic Names:..., 1980:20ff). The Germanic reflex of the
            same stem is PG *skeutan "to shoot", "to cast a missile" >
            ON skjóta, OE scéotan, OHG skiozan, Crimean Gothic schieten etc.
            The attested nomen agentis in the historical languages – ON skyti,
            OE scytta, OHG skuzzo – points towards
            PG *skutjan- M.-an "shooter", "archer" (ibid.), but cf.
            ON andskoti "opponent", "adversary" which < *anda-skutan-, lit.
            "one who shoots back (or against smb.)", without -j- in the suffix.
            Hence we can reconstruct Go. *skiutan st. v. 2 "to shoot"; *skutja
            M.-an "archer" and its variant *skuta M.-an. The last form is the
            closest analogue of the Scythians' ethnonym possible. Semantically
            it's a perfect designation for a people of steppe nomads with
            mounted archers comprising next to 100% of its war power.

            By the time of the Gothic migrations the epoch of the Scythians
            dominating the steppes north of the Black Sea was long over. They
            had been effectively replaced by kindred Iranian-speaking tribes of
            Sarmatians, Alans, Iazyges and others. Their ethnonym must have gone
            away with them, although the Graeco-Roman authors continued to use
            it indiscriminately for all nomadic peoples of the Northeast,
            including the Goths. Thus we are far from being sure of an immediate
            genetic succession between Scythian self-name *Skuða-ta pl. and
            hypothetical Go. *Skutans. If the latter was ever used for Iranian
            (and probably Hunnish as well) neighbors of the Goths, it could well
            have occured independently. Still, for translation purposes I'd
            suggest *Skutans and *Skuta-þiuda (*Skuta-land), not Skwþus and its
            derivatives, whenever it comes to render Scythae and Scythia in the
            passages of Getica taken from the Gothic oral tradition.

            Ualarauans

            P.S. To compare with *Skuta-þiuda is OHG folk
            sceotantero "Schützenvolk" in Hildebrandslied 51.
          • llama_nom
            ... You re right, as usual :-) I ve replaced inu with alja . ... Well, we have got awiliudon , supposing the first element of that is from the same root?
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
              > >
              > > [...]
              > > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
              >
              > Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
              > and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.
              >
              > /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
              > something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
              > the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
              > allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?


              You're right, as usual :-) I've replaced 'inu' with 'alja'.



              > Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
              > could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?


              Well, we have got 'awiliudon', supposing the first element of that is
              from the same root?


              > /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
              > Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
              > unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?


              Changed to 'unhulþam' as you suggest to emphasise that they're male.


              > /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
              > just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
              > translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
              > alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?


              I think either would fit the meaning (cf. 2Cor 13:5), but I've changed
              to 'unfraisan' for the sake of the extra gratuitous alliteration.


              > /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
              > their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?


              Changed to 'Hilms gulþahrudans / ni sat ana haubida im'. I think
              'haubidam' would be possible, but for singuar, see 'ni indrobnai izwar
              hairto' = hUMWN hE KARDIA (J 14:1); 'iþ hairto ize' = hE de KARDIA
              AUTWN (Mk 7:6) = KJB 'their heart' = Icelandic 'hjarta þeirra'.
              Google turns up lots of examples of Icelandic 'í/á/yfir höfði þeirra',
              and in st. 60 of the Old Norse Sólarljóð, we find:

              Marga menn
              sá ek moldar gengna,
              þá er eigi máttu þjónustu ná;
              heiðnar stjörnur
              stóðu yfir höfði þeim
              fáðar feiknstöfum.

              "I saw many dead men who could not take service [with God]. Heathen
              stars stood over their head[s], painted with evil letters/runes."


              > /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
              > shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?


              You're right.


              > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
              > with the bolts"
              > and
              > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
              > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
              > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
              > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
              > any examples?
              >
              > /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
              > dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
              > Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?


              I was trying to get across the idea that Audika (indulging in a bit of
              traditional flyting before the battle) is telling Ibra that he (Ibra)
              is fey, i.e. locked into a feverish or trance-like state of mind where
              his every choice seems to bring death closer, as if he's
              subconsciously working towards his own destruction, and so there's no
              helping him, and it shows in the fact that his mind's on ancient
              glories and tales rather than on the practical realities of the
              chahged political situation.

              http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0149.png


              > /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
              > above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?


              The plural was deliberate. The nameless grey-haired warrior is on the
              side of the Huns and Gothic rebels against Airmanareiks. He's
              addressing the forces loyal to Airmanareiks, currently holed up in
              their fortified settlement (Ibra and his men). I think he's probably
              a certain god (harjonds, from the same root as Herjan) who famously
              turns up at such moments to ensure the battle goes according to his
              inscrutable plans. He goads the defenders into leaving their position
              of strength and coming out to fight in the open against superior
              numbers; he also drops a hint to the attackers clues about how to get
              them out if they refuse (cf. the end of Völsunga saga), although he
              knows they won't. The reference to fire and enchantment was meant to
              be an allusion to the story in Guta saga of the founding of Gotland
              and how the spell that caused the island to sink every day was lifted
              with fire; so he's invoking a memory of the very beginning of Gothic
              history here at what must seem to the participants as something like
              the end.


              > And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
              > lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!


              Þagk þus fairhaita, Walhahrabn, jah allaim fairni-liuþarjam þaim
              þizeei *hugisahtins (ideas) ik skandalaus hlaf!
            • llama_nom
              ... This isn t quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the passive was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus and the active intransitive hve
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                >
                > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                > with the bolts"
                > and
                > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                > any examples?

                This isn't quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the
                passive 'was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus' and the active
                intransitive 'hve wasjaima', 'gawasjam sarwam liuhadis', 'ni wasjaiþ
                twaim paidom'. Or 'agisa mikillamma dishaibaida wesun' : 'ohtedun
                agisa mikilamma'. But can we generalise from that to other uses of
                the dative? I'll see if I can find a closer match somewhere. Or
                would a preposition help: miþ, fram, af?
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.