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Re: Translating Getica (cerva) + Drus Griutunge

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  • llama_nom
    ... That s what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of the meter, and because dius was the last noun mentioned. But given what
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
      > >
      > > There we go:
      > >
      > > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
      > >
      > > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
      > > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
      > *think* I
      > > got them all...
      >
      > The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
      > which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
      > to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.


      That's what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of
      the meter, and because 'dius' was the last noun mentioned. But given
      what Streitberg says in section 236.1-2, and Wright in 429.1-2 about
      natural gender sometimes taking precedence over grammatical gender, I
      suspect either would be acceptable here (feminine because we know the
      animal is female, or neuter because of the gender of 'dius'). I stuck
      to feminine in the English translation though because we've lost the
      idea of arbitrary grammatical gender on nouns, so it might be a bit
      confusing to shift back and forth between neuter and feminine
      (although even in English there's some leeway when talking about animals).


      > A couple more comments while we are upon it...
      >
      > /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?


      You're right, of course. Incidentally, the prefixed and unprefixed
      forms can both be used perfectively: 'nahtamat waurhta' (Mk 6:21) :
      'gawaurhtedun imma nahtamat' (J 12:2).


      > /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
      > that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
      > parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
      > *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?


      Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
      but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
      reason to favour one over the other?


      > /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
      > seljaizos?


      Yes, well spotted! Hmm, I'm getting a slight sense of deja-vu here, a
      nasty feeling that maybe I saw this months ago and got distracted by
      something else before I got round to correcting it...


      > /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)


      Argh, extremely well spotted! I had to read this three times before I
      saw what was wrong with it! At first I assumed you must be pointing
      out a grammatical error, so I looked at the poem, couldn't see what it
      was, then looked back here, and only then did the penny drop.


      >
      > /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
      > thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
      > no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
      > but is it not "thou mightest"?


      I was thinking of 'hvana wileiþ ei fraletau izwis?' (Mt 27:17). But
      then we've also got 'þana gawenja þammei managizo fragaf' (L 7:43).
      And the 'ei' might be necessary in Mt 27:17 to go with the subjunctive
      /optative to give the sense of wishing, so I'm incline to go with
      'þanei' as you suggest.

      Since I didn't actually grow up saying "thou might(est)" in everyday
      conversation, all criticism is welcome! I was thinking of 'might' as
      subjunctive here, used because the ability to drive anyone out is
      unreal in the opinion of the speaker. Looking now, there seem to be
      examples of both 'might' and 'might(e)st' sometimes either in the same
      construction, which makes me think they may have been interchangeable
      at least in some parts of the modern period. Where Chaucer has 'thogh
      thou myghtest' in the Merchant's Tale, a modern adaptation has 'though
      thou might'. Robert Pleasants in the 18th c. writes 'that thou might
      be better able', but there are lots of 17th c. examples of optative
      'might(e)st', however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
      Bible as subjunctive:

      Though thou mount on high as the eagle, and though thy nest be set
      among the stars, I will bring thee down from thence, saith Jehovah.
      (Obadiah 1:4, KJB 1611).

      That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou
      hast been instructed.
      (Luke 1:4, KJB 1611).

      Compare: "Though thou pour the ocean into thy pitcher, It can hold no
      more than one day's store." (Rumi's Masnavi i Ma'navi, trans.
      Whinfield 1898).


      > [...]
      >
      > What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
      > could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
      > Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
      > (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).


      Köbler reconstructs PGmc. *raigjon, F on-stem. OHG has 'réia' and
      'reiga'. I'm not quite sure to get from this vowel to NHG 'ricke'
      (Grimm cites dialectal alternatives 'rieke' and 'rücke'), but the
      survival of /k/ there suggests that it was originally */g/ rather than
      */gw/. I'm not sure how */wj/ develops in Proto Old English; I'll
      have to look that up.

      Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
    • llama_nom
      ... but -wiseis will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any reason to favour one over the other? Revised to Jah Wulþuwiseis x / x / (x) (Sievers
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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        >> /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
        >> that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
        >> parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
        >> *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

        > Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
        but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
        reason to favour one over the other?

        Revised to 'Jah Wulþuwiseis' x / x / (x) (Sievers type B), on the
        principle "if there's no indication otherwise, tribes can be i-stems".
      • ualarauans
        ... Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I m flattered and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks. /allaim inu hrabna/
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
          >
          > [...]
          > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!

          Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
          and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.

          /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
          something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
          the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
          allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?

          Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
          could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?

          /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
          Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
          unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?

          /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
          just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
          translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
          alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?

          /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
          their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?

          /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
          shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?

          /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
          with the bolts"
          and
          /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
          [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
          intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
          to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
          any examples?

          /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
          dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
          Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?

          /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
          above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?

          And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
          lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!

          Ualarauans
        • llama_nom
          ... Correction, thou might doesn t, but other verbs do. There seems to be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least: For though thou
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
            >
            > [...] however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
            > Bible as subjunctive

            Correction, 'thou might' doesn't, but other verbs do. There seems to
            be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least:

            For though thou wash thee with nitre

            Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee
            with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in
            vain shalt thou make thyself fair;

            though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again,

            though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away,
            __________________________________________________________

            Thanks for the extra comments - and the extra praise! It would be a
            poorer poem without your help. I'll have a proper look through them
            tomorrow. Just a couple of replies: 'unhulþo' and 'skohsl', though
            feminine and neuter respectively, are each found with a masculine
            adjective on occasion (Mt 9:33, Mk 8:31; and cf. Mk 3:22 þamma
            reikistin unhulþono)--see Streitberg 236.1. But, given the story, it
            might be better to make them explicitly male, 'miþ unhulþam'. You're
            right about 'funsana' and 'gadauþniþ' and 'haubida'...
          • ualarauans
            To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there s an attested word Skwþus translating SKUQHS
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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              To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a
              more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there's an attested word
              Skwþus translating SKUQHS "Scythian" in Col. 3:11, but this clearly
              was a newly borrowed name, unheard of before the Bible translation.
              When we are dealing with parts of Getica that apparently go back to
              the lost Gothic epics (such as the story of the migration into Oium,
              for example) and mention "Scythia" and "Scythians", a native Gothic
              term is to be found. In fact, Jordanes recorded several East
              European ethnonyms in the form presumably close to spoken Gothic
              variant: these are e. g. Antes (Go. *Anteis pl.) and Spali (Go.
              *Spalos or *Spalans pl.). Further there is the list of peoples
              conquered by Ermanaric in Getica 116 where the mysterious
              Golthescytha thiudos are mentioned. The most plausible of many
              different interpretations of this name first suggested by von
              Grienberger (1895) and supported by Stender-Petersen (1927) and
              Korkkanen (1975) views it as a Latino-Gothic hybrid Gotth[a]e or
              Gotth[ic]e Scytha-thiudos, that is "Scythian peoples [subjected] to
              the Goth (= Ermanaric)" or "peoples of Scythia in the Gothic
              language". This is followed with eleven heavily distorted names of
              these peoples. The word Scytha-thiudos pl. (cf. Gut-þiuda) seems to
              comprehend the element Skwþa-, but this is most likely a later
              conjecture made by Cassiodorus or Jordanes.

              Currently there are several suggested etymologies of the name of
              Scythians. The one I find most convincing explains Greek SKUQAI as a
              phonetic approximation of OIr. *Skuda- or *Skuða- derived from the
              PIE stem *skeu(d)- "to throw", "to shoot", "to push". Scythians are
              thus "archers" literally (see for details Oswald Szemerenyi's Four
              Old Iranian Ethnic Names:..., 1980:20ff). The Germanic reflex of the
              same stem is PG *skeutan "to shoot", "to cast a missile" >
              ON skjóta, OE scéotan, OHG skiozan, Crimean Gothic schieten etc.
              The attested nomen agentis in the historical languages – ON skyti,
              OE scytta, OHG skuzzo – points towards
              PG *skutjan- M.-an "shooter", "archer" (ibid.), but cf.
              ON andskoti "opponent", "adversary" which < *anda-skutan-, lit.
              "one who shoots back (or against smb.)", without -j- in the suffix.
              Hence we can reconstruct Go. *skiutan st. v. 2 "to shoot"; *skutja
              M.-an "archer" and its variant *skuta M.-an. The last form is the
              closest analogue of the Scythians' ethnonym possible. Semantically
              it's a perfect designation for a people of steppe nomads with
              mounted archers comprising next to 100% of its war power.

              By the time of the Gothic migrations the epoch of the Scythians
              dominating the steppes north of the Black Sea was long over. They
              had been effectively replaced by kindred Iranian-speaking tribes of
              Sarmatians, Alans, Iazyges and others. Their ethnonym must have gone
              away with them, although the Graeco-Roman authors continued to use
              it indiscriminately for all nomadic peoples of the Northeast,
              including the Goths. Thus we are far from being sure of an immediate
              genetic succession between Scythian self-name *Skuða-ta pl. and
              hypothetical Go. *Skutans. If the latter was ever used for Iranian
              (and probably Hunnish as well) neighbors of the Goths, it could well
              have occured independently. Still, for translation purposes I'd
              suggest *Skutans and *Skuta-þiuda (*Skuta-land), not Skwþus and its
              derivatives, whenever it comes to render Scythae and Scythia in the
              passages of Getica taken from the Gothic oral tradition.

              Ualarauans

              P.S. To compare with *Skuta-þiuda is OHG folk
              sceotantero "Schützenvolk" in Hildebrandslied 51.
            • llama_nom
              ... You re right, as usual :-) I ve replaced inu with alja . ... Well, we have got awiliudon , supposing the first element of that is from the same root?
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
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                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                > >
                > > [...]
                > > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
                >
                > Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                > and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.
                >
                > /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                > something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                > the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                > allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?


                You're right, as usual :-) I've replaced 'inu' with 'alja'.



                > Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                > could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?


                Well, we have got 'awiliudon', supposing the first element of that is
                from the same root?


                > /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                > Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                > unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?


                Changed to 'unhulþam' as you suggest to emphasise that they're male.


                > /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                > just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                > translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                > alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?


                I think either would fit the meaning (cf. 2Cor 13:5), but I've changed
                to 'unfraisan' for the sake of the extra gratuitous alliteration.


                > /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                > their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?


                Changed to 'Hilms gulþahrudans / ni sat ana haubida im'. I think
                'haubidam' would be possible, but for singuar, see 'ni indrobnai izwar
                hairto' = hUMWN hE KARDIA (J 14:1); 'iþ hairto ize' = hE de KARDIA
                AUTWN (Mk 7:6) = KJB 'their heart' = Icelandic 'hjarta þeirra'.
                Google turns up lots of examples of Icelandic 'í/á/yfir höfði þeirra',
                and in st. 60 of the Old Norse Sólarljóð, we find:

                Marga menn
                sá ek moldar gengna,
                þá er eigi máttu þjónustu ná;
                heiðnar stjörnur
                stóðu yfir höfði þeim
                fáðar feiknstöfum.

                "I saw many dead men who could not take service [with God]. Heathen
                stars stood over their head[s], painted with evil letters/runes."


                > /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                > shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?


                You're right.


                > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                > with the bolts"
                > and
                > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                > any examples?
                >
                > /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                > dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                > Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?


                I was trying to get across the idea that Audika (indulging in a bit of
                traditional flyting before the battle) is telling Ibra that he (Ibra)
                is fey, i.e. locked into a feverish or trance-like state of mind where
                his every choice seems to bring death closer, as if he's
                subconsciously working towards his own destruction, and so there's no
                helping him, and it shows in the fact that his mind's on ancient
                glories and tales rather than on the practical realities of the
                chahged political situation.

                http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0149.png


                > /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                > above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?


                The plural was deliberate. The nameless grey-haired warrior is on the
                side of the Huns and Gothic rebels against Airmanareiks. He's
                addressing the forces loyal to Airmanareiks, currently holed up in
                their fortified settlement (Ibra and his men). I think he's probably
                a certain god (harjonds, from the same root as Herjan) who famously
                turns up at such moments to ensure the battle goes according to his
                inscrutable plans. He goads the defenders into leaving their position
                of strength and coming out to fight in the open against superior
                numbers; he also drops a hint to the attackers clues about how to get
                them out if they refuse (cf. the end of Völsunga saga), although he
                knows they won't. The reference to fire and enchantment was meant to
                be an allusion to the story in Guta saga of the founding of Gotland
                and how the spell that caused the island to sink every day was lifted
                with fire; so he's invoking a memory of the very beginning of Gothic
                history here at what must seem to the participants as something like
                the end.


                > And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                > lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!


                Þagk þus fairhaita, Walhahrabn, jah allaim fairni-liuþarjam þaim
                þizeei *hugisahtins (ideas) ik skandalaus hlaf!
              • llama_nom
                ... This isn t quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the passive was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus and the active intransitive hve
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                  > with the bolts"
                  > and
                  > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                  > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                  > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                  > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                  > any examples?

                  This isn't quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the
                  passive 'was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus' and the active
                  intransitive 'hve wasjaima', 'gawasjam sarwam liuhadis', 'ni wasjaiþ
                  twaim paidom'. Or 'agisa mikillamma dishaibaida wesun' : 'ohtedun
                  agisa mikilamma'. But can we generalise from that to other uses of
                  the dative? I'll see if I can find a closer match somewhere. Or
                  would a preposition help: miþ, fram, af?
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