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Re: Translating Getica (cerva) + Drus Grutigge

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  • llama_nom
    ... OE has acc.sg. hinde , consistent with F. -o, although the i-stems could take acc.sg. too by analogy with o-stems. I m not sure about ON; just one
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > FFT say it's from PG *hindî (> Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems
      > strange to me. They also say it's from earlier *hemdî and cognate to
      > KEMAS (Gen. KEMADOS). Interestingly, NHG has Hinde and Hindin, both
      > feminine. I guess it's this latter Hindin (with an "extra"
      > feminizator) which led some to conclude about an –în- stem. OE and
      > ON as I can gather are F.-o, right?

      OE has acc.sg. 'hinde', consistent with F. -o, although the i-stems
      could take acc.sg. too by analogy with o-stems. I'm not sure about
      ON; just one example in the Orðabók Háskólans textasafn, in the singular:

      http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?lemma=hind&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m1=hind+hinda+hindanna+hindar+hindarinnar+hindin+hindina+hindinni+hindir+hindirnar+hindum+hindunum+hindurnar&l1=Leita&lmax=1

      sáu þeir hind eina stóra ok væna ok ríða þar eptir
      (Hjálmars saga ok Ölvis).

      Modern Icelandic has gen.sg. -ar, nom./acc.pl. ir., but a lot of
      o-stems have come to be declined like this. The OHG on-stem 'hinta'
      would look the same in the nom.sg. as an o-stem, so for now, I'm guess
      ing that it was originally an o-stem.


      > -------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Þata was leitil waiht, / liþau unmahteig. / HINDA (?) hvarboda / af
      > hairdai ainA. / Jah seiþu warþ. / Jah saurgandEI warþ. / FralusanA
      > in fanja, / SI rann framis.
      >
      > hatiza, iþ RAIHON / rinnan lailotun. / Nahts neiþhardus. / Fraus
      > nasos IZOS smalos.
      >
      > Is it OK with the rhyme now I wonder?

      Well, it does bad things to the meter in a couple of places ;-) But
      we can solve that easy enough:

      B ... Þata was leitil waiht, ....x x x / x /
      D ... liþau unmahteig. ........../ (x) / \ x
      B ... Af hairdai hvarb ..........x / x /
      A ... hinda aina. .............../ x / x
      B ... Jah seiþu warþ. ...........x / x /
      E ... Saurgandei warþ. ........../ \ x /
      A ... Fralusana in fanja ........(x) / (x) x / x
      A ... si rann framis. ...........x x / x

      (Or 'Jah seiþu warþ, jah saurgandei... x / x / . x / \ x)

      Technical jiggery-pokery: Verbal prefixes and the negatve particle
      'ni' are allowed in an on-line (odd line) of Sievers type A or D. The
      final line is Sievers type A3 (single delayed lift), cf. OE 'se wæs
      mín fæder', with "resolution" blocked by the not entirely unstressed
      preceding word.

      As an alternative to Go. *raih(j)o, we could perhaps have Go. *raigjo
      (which fits exactly with the OE and OHG forms). Gothic levels out
      Verner's Law forms in the strong verbs and elsewhere, and may well
      have done here by analogy with 'raiha', but maybe not.
    • llama_nom
      There we go: http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over from before the deer s gender change
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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        There we go:

        http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm

        Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
        from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I *think* I
        got them all...
      • ualarauans
        ... *think* I ... The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/ which is translated She was hard pressed . But this may refer to /þata
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
          >
          > There we go:
          >
          > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
          >
          > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
          > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
          *think* I
          > got them all...

          The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
          which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
          to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.

          A couple more comments while we are upon it...

          /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?

          /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
          that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
          parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
          *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

          /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
          seljaizos?

          /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)

          /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
          thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
          no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
          but is it not "thou mightest"?

          And I like your *niqis for "water monster" (or smth like this)!


          What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
          could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
          Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
          (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).

          Ualarauans
        • llama_nom
          ... That s what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of the meter, and because dius was the last noun mentioned. But given what
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
            > >
            > > There we go:
            > >
            > > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
            > >
            > > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
            > > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
            > *think* I
            > > got them all...
            >
            > The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
            > which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
            > to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.


            That's what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of
            the meter, and because 'dius' was the last noun mentioned. But given
            what Streitberg says in section 236.1-2, and Wright in 429.1-2 about
            natural gender sometimes taking precedence over grammatical gender, I
            suspect either would be acceptable here (feminine because we know the
            animal is female, or neuter because of the gender of 'dius'). I stuck
            to feminine in the English translation though because we've lost the
            idea of arbitrary grammatical gender on nouns, so it might be a bit
            confusing to shift back and forth between neuter and feminine
            (although even in English there's some leeway when talking about animals).


            > A couple more comments while we are upon it...
            >
            > /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?


            You're right, of course. Incidentally, the prefixed and unprefixed
            forms can both be used perfectively: 'nahtamat waurhta' (Mk 6:21) :
            'gawaurhtedun imma nahtamat' (J 12:2).


            > /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
            > that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
            > parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
            > *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?


            Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
            but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
            reason to favour one over the other?


            > /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
            > seljaizos?


            Yes, well spotted! Hmm, I'm getting a slight sense of deja-vu here, a
            nasty feeling that maybe I saw this months ago and got distracted by
            something else before I got round to correcting it...


            > /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)


            Argh, extremely well spotted! I had to read this three times before I
            saw what was wrong with it! At first I assumed you must be pointing
            out a grammatical error, so I looked at the poem, couldn't see what it
            was, then looked back here, and only then did the penny drop.


            >
            > /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
            > thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
            > no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
            > but is it not "thou mightest"?


            I was thinking of 'hvana wileiþ ei fraletau izwis?' (Mt 27:17). But
            then we've also got 'þana gawenja þammei managizo fragaf' (L 7:43).
            And the 'ei' might be necessary in Mt 27:17 to go with the subjunctive
            /optative to give the sense of wishing, so I'm incline to go with
            'þanei' as you suggest.

            Since I didn't actually grow up saying "thou might(est)" in everyday
            conversation, all criticism is welcome! I was thinking of 'might' as
            subjunctive here, used because the ability to drive anyone out is
            unreal in the opinion of the speaker. Looking now, there seem to be
            examples of both 'might' and 'might(e)st' sometimes either in the same
            construction, which makes me think they may have been interchangeable
            at least in some parts of the modern period. Where Chaucer has 'thogh
            thou myghtest' in the Merchant's Tale, a modern adaptation has 'though
            thou might'. Robert Pleasants in the 18th c. writes 'that thou might
            be better able', but there are lots of 17th c. examples of optative
            'might(e)st', however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
            Bible as subjunctive:

            Though thou mount on high as the eagle, and though thy nest be set
            among the stars, I will bring thee down from thence, saith Jehovah.
            (Obadiah 1:4, KJB 1611).

            That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou
            hast been instructed.
            (Luke 1:4, KJB 1611).

            Compare: "Though thou pour the ocean into thy pitcher, It can hold no
            more than one day's store." (Rumi's Masnavi i Ma'navi, trans.
            Whinfield 1898).


            > [...]
            >
            > What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
            > could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
            > Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
            > (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).


            Köbler reconstructs PGmc. *raigjon, F on-stem. OHG has 'réia' and
            'reiga'. I'm not quite sure to get from this vowel to NHG 'ricke'
            (Grimm cites dialectal alternatives 'rieke' and 'rücke'), but the
            survival of /k/ there suggests that it was originally */g/ rather than
            */gw/. I'm not sure how */wj/ develops in Proto Old English; I'll
            have to look that up.

            Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
          • llama_nom
            ... but -wiseis will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any reason to favour one over the other? Revised to Jah Wulþuwiseis x / x / (x) (Sievers
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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              >> /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
              >> that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
              >> parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
              >> *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

              > Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
              but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
              reason to favour one over the other?

              Revised to 'Jah Wulþuwiseis' x / x / (x) (Sievers type B), on the
              principle "if there's no indication otherwise, tribes can be i-stems".
            • ualarauans
              ... Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I m flattered and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks. /allaim inu hrabna/
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                >
                > [...]
                > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!

                Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.

                /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?

                Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?

                /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?

                /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?

                /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?

                /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?

                /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                with the bolts"
                and
                /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                any examples?

                /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?

                /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?

                And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!

                Ualarauans
              • llama_nom
                ... Correction, thou might doesn t, but other verbs do. There seems to be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least: For though thou
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > [...] however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
                  > Bible as subjunctive

                  Correction, 'thou might' doesn't, but other verbs do. There seems to
                  be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least:

                  For though thou wash thee with nitre

                  Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee
                  with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in
                  vain shalt thou make thyself fair;

                  though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again,

                  though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away,
                  __________________________________________________________

                  Thanks for the extra comments - and the extra praise! It would be a
                  poorer poem without your help. I'll have a proper look through them
                  tomorrow. Just a couple of replies: 'unhulþo' and 'skohsl', though
                  feminine and neuter respectively, are each found with a masculine
                  adjective on occasion (Mt 9:33, Mk 8:31; and cf. Mk 3:22 þamma
                  reikistin unhulþono)--see Streitberg 236.1. But, given the story, it
                  might be better to make them explicitly male, 'miþ unhulþam'. You're
                  right about 'funsana' and 'gadauþniþ' and 'haubida'...
                • ualarauans
                  To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there s an attested word Skwþus translating SKUQHS
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                    To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a
                    more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there's an attested word
                    Skwþus translating SKUQHS "Scythian" in Col. 3:11, but this clearly
                    was a newly borrowed name, unheard of before the Bible translation.
                    When we are dealing with parts of Getica that apparently go back to
                    the lost Gothic epics (such as the story of the migration into Oium,
                    for example) and mention "Scythia" and "Scythians", a native Gothic
                    term is to be found. In fact, Jordanes recorded several East
                    European ethnonyms in the form presumably close to spoken Gothic
                    variant: these are e. g. Antes (Go. *Anteis pl.) and Spali (Go.
                    *Spalos or *Spalans pl.). Further there is the list of peoples
                    conquered by Ermanaric in Getica 116 where the mysterious
                    Golthescytha thiudos are mentioned. The most plausible of many
                    different interpretations of this name first suggested by von
                    Grienberger (1895) and supported by Stender-Petersen (1927) and
                    Korkkanen (1975) views it as a Latino-Gothic hybrid Gotth[a]e or
                    Gotth[ic]e Scytha-thiudos, that is "Scythian peoples [subjected] to
                    the Goth (= Ermanaric)" or "peoples of Scythia in the Gothic
                    language". This is followed with eleven heavily distorted names of
                    these peoples. The word Scytha-thiudos pl. (cf. Gut-þiuda) seems to
                    comprehend the element Skwþa-, but this is most likely a later
                    conjecture made by Cassiodorus or Jordanes.

                    Currently there are several suggested etymologies of the name of
                    Scythians. The one I find most convincing explains Greek SKUQAI as a
                    phonetic approximation of OIr. *Skuda- or *Skuða- derived from the
                    PIE stem *skeu(d)- "to throw", "to shoot", "to push". Scythians are
                    thus "archers" literally (see for details Oswald Szemerenyi's Four
                    Old Iranian Ethnic Names:..., 1980:20ff). The Germanic reflex of the
                    same stem is PG *skeutan "to shoot", "to cast a missile" >
                    ON skjóta, OE scéotan, OHG skiozan, Crimean Gothic schieten etc.
                    The attested nomen agentis in the historical languages – ON skyti,
                    OE scytta, OHG skuzzo – points towards
                    PG *skutjan- M.-an "shooter", "archer" (ibid.), but cf.
                    ON andskoti "opponent", "adversary" which < *anda-skutan-, lit.
                    "one who shoots back (or against smb.)", without -j- in the suffix.
                    Hence we can reconstruct Go. *skiutan st. v. 2 "to shoot"; *skutja
                    M.-an "archer" and its variant *skuta M.-an. The last form is the
                    closest analogue of the Scythians' ethnonym possible. Semantically
                    it's a perfect designation for a people of steppe nomads with
                    mounted archers comprising next to 100% of its war power.

                    By the time of the Gothic migrations the epoch of the Scythians
                    dominating the steppes north of the Black Sea was long over. They
                    had been effectively replaced by kindred Iranian-speaking tribes of
                    Sarmatians, Alans, Iazyges and others. Their ethnonym must have gone
                    away with them, although the Graeco-Roman authors continued to use
                    it indiscriminately for all nomadic peoples of the Northeast,
                    including the Goths. Thus we are far from being sure of an immediate
                    genetic succession between Scythian self-name *Skuða-ta pl. and
                    hypothetical Go. *Skutans. If the latter was ever used for Iranian
                    (and probably Hunnish as well) neighbors of the Goths, it could well
                    have occured independently. Still, for translation purposes I'd
                    suggest *Skutans and *Skuta-þiuda (*Skuta-land), not Skwþus and its
                    derivatives, whenever it comes to render Scythae and Scythia in the
                    passages of Getica taken from the Gothic oral tradition.

                    Ualarauans

                    P.S. To compare with *Skuta-þiuda is OHG folk
                    sceotantero "Schützenvolk" in Hildebrandslied 51.
                  • llama_nom
                    ... You re right, as usual :-) I ve replaced inu with alja . ... Well, we have got awiliudon , supposing the first element of that is from the same root?
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
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                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > [...]
                      > > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
                      >
                      > Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                      > and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.
                      >
                      > /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                      > something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                      > the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                      > allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?


                      You're right, as usual :-) I've replaced 'inu' with 'alja'.



                      > Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                      > could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?


                      Well, we have got 'awiliudon', supposing the first element of that is
                      from the same root?


                      > /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                      > Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                      > unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?


                      Changed to 'unhulþam' as you suggest to emphasise that they're male.


                      > /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                      > just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                      > translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                      > alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?


                      I think either would fit the meaning (cf. 2Cor 13:5), but I've changed
                      to 'unfraisan' for the sake of the extra gratuitous alliteration.


                      > /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                      > their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?


                      Changed to 'Hilms gulþahrudans / ni sat ana haubida im'. I think
                      'haubidam' would be possible, but for singuar, see 'ni indrobnai izwar
                      hairto' = hUMWN hE KARDIA (J 14:1); 'iþ hairto ize' = hE de KARDIA
                      AUTWN (Mk 7:6) = KJB 'their heart' = Icelandic 'hjarta þeirra'.
                      Google turns up lots of examples of Icelandic 'í/á/yfir höfði þeirra',
                      and in st. 60 of the Old Norse Sólarljóð, we find:

                      Marga menn
                      sá ek moldar gengna,
                      þá er eigi máttu þjónustu ná;
                      heiðnar stjörnur
                      stóðu yfir höfði þeim
                      fáðar feiknstöfum.

                      "I saw many dead men who could not take service [with God]. Heathen
                      stars stood over their head[s], painted with evil letters/runes."


                      > /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                      > shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?


                      You're right.


                      > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                      > with the bolts"
                      > and
                      > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                      > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                      > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                      > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                      > any examples?
                      >
                      > /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                      > dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                      > Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?


                      I was trying to get across the idea that Audika (indulging in a bit of
                      traditional flyting before the battle) is telling Ibra that he (Ibra)
                      is fey, i.e. locked into a feverish or trance-like state of mind where
                      his every choice seems to bring death closer, as if he's
                      subconsciously working towards his own destruction, and so there's no
                      helping him, and it shows in the fact that his mind's on ancient
                      glories and tales rather than on the practical realities of the
                      chahged political situation.

                      http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0149.png


                      > /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                      > above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?


                      The plural was deliberate. The nameless grey-haired warrior is on the
                      side of the Huns and Gothic rebels against Airmanareiks. He's
                      addressing the forces loyal to Airmanareiks, currently holed up in
                      their fortified settlement (Ibra and his men). I think he's probably
                      a certain god (harjonds, from the same root as Herjan) who famously
                      turns up at such moments to ensure the battle goes according to his
                      inscrutable plans. He goads the defenders into leaving their position
                      of strength and coming out to fight in the open against superior
                      numbers; he also drops a hint to the attackers clues about how to get
                      them out if they refuse (cf. the end of Völsunga saga), although he
                      knows they won't. The reference to fire and enchantment was meant to
                      be an allusion to the story in Guta saga of the founding of Gotland
                      and how the spell that caused the island to sink every day was lifted
                      with fire; so he's invoking a memory of the very beginning of Gothic
                      history here at what must seem to the participants as something like
                      the end.


                      > And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                      > lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!


                      Þagk þus fairhaita, Walhahrabn, jah allaim fairni-liuþarjam þaim
                      þizeei *hugisahtins (ideas) ik skandalaus hlaf!
                    • llama_nom
                      ... This isn t quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the passive was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus and the active intransitive hve
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                        > with the bolts"
                        > and
                        > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                        > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                        > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                        > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                        > any examples?

                        This isn't quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the
                        passive 'was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus' and the active
                        intransitive 'hve wasjaima', 'gawasjam sarwam liuhadis', 'ni wasjaiþ
                        twaim paidom'. Or 'agisa mikillamma dishaibaida wesun' : 'ohtedun
                        agisa mikilamma'. But can we generalise from that to other uses of
                        the dative? I'll see if I can find a closer match somewhere. Or
                        would a preposition help: miþ, fram, af?
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