Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Translating Getica (cerva) + Drus Grutigge

Expand Messages
  • ualarauans
    ... (MDu., ... says some ... connect it ... FFT say it s from PG *hindî ( Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems strange to me. They also say it s from earlier
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 30, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
      >
      > Go. *hinda F -o, or *hindo F -on (OE hind, ON hind; OLG *hinda
      (MDu.,
      > Du. hinde), OHG hinta (MHG, Ger. hinde), wk. fem. The OED
      says "some
      > suggest derivation from Goth. hinþan to catch; others would
      connect it
      > with Gr. KEMAS young deer, pricket."

      FFT say it's from PG *hindî (> Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems
      strange to me. They also say it's from earlier *hemdî and cognate to
      KEMAS (Gen. KEMADOS). Interestingly, NHG has Hinde and Hindin, both
      feminine. I guess it's this latter Hindin (with an "extra"
      feminizator) which led some to conclude about an –în- stem. OE and
      ON as I can gather are F.-o, right?

      -------------------------------------------------

      Þata was leitil waiht, / liþau unmahteig. / HINDA (?) hvarboda / af
      hairdai ainA. / Jah seiþu warþ. / Jah saurgandEI warþ. / FralusanA
      in fanja, / SI rann framis.

      hatiza, iþ RAIHON / rinnan lailotun. / Nahts neiþhardus. / Fraus
      nasos IZOS smalos.

      Is it OK with the rhyme now I wonder?

      Ualarauans
    • Francisc Czobor
      Hi, Ualarauans, There might be a connection between the Hungarian szarvas and Latin cervus , but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form szarv horn,
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 1, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi, Ualarauans,

        There might be a connection between the Hungarian "szarvas" and
        Latin "cervus", but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form
        szarv "horn, antler", the meaning being "having horns/antlers". As
        substantive it means "deer" (any gender), and as adjective: "with
        horns/antlers, horned", as in the compound szarvasmarha "horned
        cattle".
        The word szarv "horn" is common Finno-Ugrian, having cognates in all
        other Finno-Ugrian languages (Finnish: sarvi; Estonian: sarv;
        Livonian: so:ra, sa:ra; Saami [Lappish]: c^oar've; Mordvin: s'uro,
        s'ura; Mari [Cheremis]: s^ur; Udmurt: s'ur; Komi: s'ur; Khanty
        [Ostyak]: s'arBi; Mansi [Vogul]: s'o:re). This common Finno-Ugrian
        word is considered to be of Indo-European (satem, most probably
        Iranic) origin (cf. Avestan sru:, srva:, Mod. Pers. seru:, suru:[n];
        other cognates mentioned there are Latin cervus and German Horn).
        (source: A Magyar Nyelv Történeti-Etimológiai Szótára [The Historical-
        Etymological Dictionary of the Hungarian Language], Akadémiai Kiadó,
        Budapest, 1976)
        The old Hungarian chronicles mentioning the deer-legend were written
        in Latin, the oldest of them being that of Simon de Keza (written
        1282-1285) (followed by the Chronicon Hungariae Pictum / Painted
        Chronicle of Vienna, written around 1360, etc.). Until now, I have
        found only modern Hungarian translations of Keza's work, where the
        animal appears sometimes as "gímszarvas" (stag), sometimes
        as "szarvas ünö" (doe). But, finally, I have found the Latin text,
        only a part of it, but containing the passage of interest
        (http://www.konyv-e.hu/pdf/Kezai-latin-r.pdf): there is clearly about
        a "cerva" ! The passage reads:
        "Accidit autem dierum una venandi causa ipsos perrexisse; quibus in
        deserto cum cerva occurrisset, in paludes Meotidas illam insequentes,
        fugiit ante eos. Cumque ibi ab oculis eorum prorsus vanuisset,
        diutius requisitam invenire nullo modo potuerunt. Peragratis tandem
        paludibus memoratis pro armentis nutriendis ipsam conspexerant
        oportunam."
        The influence of Iordanes is obvious.

        Francisc



        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
        > ...
        > There's actually some evidence for an alternative tradition. In
        > several versions of the deer-legend the animal could have been
        male.
        > The Old Church Slavonic translation of the Simeon Logotheta's
        > Chronicle (10th ct.) says: GotQi prêshídúshe Meotískoje jezero
        > elafomí vodimi "The Goths (sic!) having crossed the Maeotic lake
        led
        > by a deer (masculine)", where elafomí (instr. sg. of elafú*) is of
        > course Greek ELAFOS which can be both masculine and feminine. The
        > Hungarian legend mentions szarvas "stag" (see
        > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4894).
        Hungarian
        > doesn't distinguish grammatical genders, but szarvas seems to be
        > borrowed from a satem IE (Iranian?) masculine word cognate to Lat.
        > cervus.
        > ...
      • ualarauans
        Hi Francisc, ... all ... [n]; ... Historical- ... Kiadó, ... At first I thought szarvas preserves Indo-Iranian a-stem masculine ending -as, much like Finnish
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Francisc,

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > There might be a connection between the Hungarian "szarvas" and
          > Latin "cervus", but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form
          > szarv "horn, antler", the meaning being "having horns/antlers". As
          > substantive it means "deer" (any gender), and as adjective: "with
          > horns/antlers, horned", as in the compound szarvasmarha "horned
          > cattle".
          > The word szarv "horn" is common Finno-Ugrian, having cognates in
          all
          > other Finno-Ugrian languages (Finnish: sarvi; Estonian: sarv;
          > Livonian: so:ra, sa:ra; Saami [Lappish]: c^oar've; Mordvin: s'uro,
          > s'ura; Mari [Cheremis]: s^ur; Udmurt: s'ur; Komi: s'ur; Khanty
          > [Ostyak]: s'arBi; Mansi [Vogul]: s'o:re). This common Finno-Ugrian
          > word is considered to be of Indo-European (satem, most probably
          > Iranic) origin (cf. Avestan sru:, srva:, Mod. Pers. seru:, suru:
          [n];
          > other cognates mentioned there are Latin cervus and German Horn).
          > (source: A Magyar Nyelv Történeti-Etimológiai Szótára [The
          Historical-
          > Etymological Dictionary of the Hungarian Language], Akadémiai
          Kiadó,
          > Budapest, 1976)

          At first I thought szarvas preserves Indo-Iranian a-stem masculine
          ending -as, much like Finnish germanisms do. The expected proto-word
          could be then smth like *s'arvas "horned animal" < PIE *k'er@w-:
          *k'r.w-o- (Pokorny I, 576) – cf. Lith. kárve, OCSl. krava (both
          fem.) "cow", OPruss. kurwis "ox" (with a surprising initial k- in
          otherwise satem languages). Now I see from your exposition that
          the -as in szarvas is a Hungarian suffix and does not account for
          gender. Thank you for clearing this up.

          > The old Hungarian chronicles mentioning the deer-legend were
          written
          > in Latin, the oldest of them being that of Simon de Keza (written
          > 1282-1285) (followed by the Chronicon Hungariae Pictum / Painted
          > Chronicle of Vienna, written around 1360, etc.). Until now, I have
          > found only modern Hungarian translations of Keza's work, where the
          > animal appears sometimes as "gímszarvas" (stag), sometimes
          > as "szarvas ünö" (doe). But, finally, I have found the Latin text,
          > only a part of it, but containing the passage of interest
          > (http://www.konyv-e.hu/pdf/Kezai-latin-r.pdf): there is clearly
          about
          > a "cerva" ! The passage reads:
          > "Accidit autem dierum una venandi causa ipsos perrexisse; quibus in
          > deserto cum cerva occurrisset, in paludes Meotidas illam
          insequentes,
          > fugiit ante eos. Cumque ibi ab oculis eorum prorsus vanuisset,
          > diutius requisitam invenire nullo modo potuerunt. Peragratis tandem
          > paludibus memoratis pro armentis nutriendis ipsam conspexerant
          > oportunam."
          > The influence of Iordanes is obvious.

          It is obvious indeed. Thank you for citing this source. Well, looks
          like one argument less for a male deer. Now what we have for a "doe"
          in Gothic (a bit of summing up):

          *hinda F.-o (*hindo F.-on; *hindei F.-ein)
          *raiho F.-on (*raihjo F.-on)
          *sago F.-on

          *demo (?) F.-on seems really problematic...

          Ualarauans
        • llama_nom
          ... OE has acc.sg. hinde , consistent with F. -o, although the i-stems could take acc.sg. too by analogy with o-stems. I m not sure about ON; just one
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > FFT say it's from PG *hindî (> Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems
            > strange to me. They also say it's from earlier *hemdî and cognate to
            > KEMAS (Gen. KEMADOS). Interestingly, NHG has Hinde and Hindin, both
            > feminine. I guess it's this latter Hindin (with an "extra"
            > feminizator) which led some to conclude about an –în- stem. OE and
            > ON as I can gather are F.-o, right?

            OE has acc.sg. 'hinde', consistent with F. -o, although the i-stems
            could take acc.sg. too by analogy with o-stems. I'm not sure about
            ON; just one example in the Orðabók Háskólans textasafn, in the singular:

            http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?lemma=hind&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m1=hind+hinda+hindanna+hindar+hindarinnar+hindin+hindina+hindinni+hindir+hindirnar+hindum+hindunum+hindurnar&l1=Leita&lmax=1

            sáu þeir hind eina stóra ok væna ok ríða þar eptir
            (Hjálmars saga ok Ölvis).

            Modern Icelandic has gen.sg. -ar, nom./acc.pl. ir., but a lot of
            o-stems have come to be declined like this. The OHG on-stem 'hinta'
            would look the same in the nom.sg. as an o-stem, so for now, I'm guess
            ing that it was originally an o-stem.


            > -------------------------------------------------
            >
            > Þata was leitil waiht, / liþau unmahteig. / HINDA (?) hvarboda / af
            > hairdai ainA. / Jah seiþu warþ. / Jah saurgandEI warþ. / FralusanA
            > in fanja, / SI rann framis.
            >
            > hatiza, iþ RAIHON / rinnan lailotun. / Nahts neiþhardus. / Fraus
            > nasos IZOS smalos.
            >
            > Is it OK with the rhyme now I wonder?

            Well, it does bad things to the meter in a couple of places ;-) But
            we can solve that easy enough:

            B ... Þata was leitil waiht, ....x x x / x /
            D ... liþau unmahteig. ........../ (x) / \ x
            B ... Af hairdai hvarb ..........x / x /
            A ... hinda aina. .............../ x / x
            B ... Jah seiþu warþ. ...........x / x /
            E ... Saurgandei warþ. ........../ \ x /
            A ... Fralusana in fanja ........(x) / (x) x / x
            A ... si rann framis. ...........x x / x

            (Or 'Jah seiþu warþ, jah saurgandei... x / x / . x / \ x)

            Technical jiggery-pokery: Verbal prefixes and the negatve particle
            'ni' are allowed in an on-line (odd line) of Sievers type A or D. The
            final line is Sievers type A3 (single delayed lift), cf. OE 'se wæs
            mín fæder', with "resolution" blocked by the not entirely unstressed
            preceding word.

            As an alternative to Go. *raih(j)o, we could perhaps have Go. *raigjo
            (which fits exactly with the OE and OHG forms). Gothic levels out
            Verner's Law forms in the strong verbs and elsewhere, and may well
            have done here by analogy with 'raiha', but maybe not.
          • llama_nom
            There we go: http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over from before the deer s gender change
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              There we go:

              http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm

              Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
              from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I *think* I
              got them all...
            • ualarauans
              ... *think* I ... The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/ which is translated She was hard pressed . But this may refer to /þata
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                >
                > There we go:
                >
                > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
                >
                > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
                *think* I
                > got them all...

                The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
                which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
                to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.

                A couple more comments while we are upon it...

                /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?

                /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

                /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
                seljaizos?

                /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)

                /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
                thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
                no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
                but is it not "thou mightest"?

                And I like your *niqis for "water monster" (or smth like this)!


                What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
                could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
                Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
                (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).

                Ualarauans
              • llama_nom
                ... That s what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of the meter, and because dius was the last noun mentioned. But given what
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > There we go:
                  > >
                  > > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
                  > >
                  > > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                  > > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
                  > *think* I
                  > > got them all...
                  >
                  > The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
                  > which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
                  > to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.


                  That's what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of
                  the meter, and because 'dius' was the last noun mentioned. But given
                  what Streitberg says in section 236.1-2, and Wright in 429.1-2 about
                  natural gender sometimes taking precedence over grammatical gender, I
                  suspect either would be acceptable here (feminine because we know the
                  animal is female, or neuter because of the gender of 'dius'). I stuck
                  to feminine in the English translation though because we've lost the
                  idea of arbitrary grammatical gender on nouns, so it might be a bit
                  confusing to shift back and forth between neuter and feminine
                  (although even in English there's some leeway when talking about animals).


                  > A couple more comments while we are upon it...
                  >
                  > /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?


                  You're right, of course. Incidentally, the prefixed and unprefixed
                  forms can both be used perfectively: 'nahtamat waurhta' (Mk 6:21) :
                  'gawaurhtedun imma nahtamat' (J 12:2).


                  > /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                  > that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                  > parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                  > *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?


                  Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
                  but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
                  reason to favour one over the other?


                  > /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
                  > seljaizos?


                  Yes, well spotted! Hmm, I'm getting a slight sense of deja-vu here, a
                  nasty feeling that maybe I saw this months ago and got distracted by
                  something else before I got round to correcting it...


                  > /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)


                  Argh, extremely well spotted! I had to read this three times before I
                  saw what was wrong with it! At first I assumed you must be pointing
                  out a grammatical error, so I looked at the poem, couldn't see what it
                  was, then looked back here, and only then did the penny drop.


                  >
                  > /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
                  > thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
                  > no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
                  > but is it not "thou mightest"?


                  I was thinking of 'hvana wileiþ ei fraletau izwis?' (Mt 27:17). But
                  then we've also got 'þana gawenja þammei managizo fragaf' (L 7:43).
                  And the 'ei' might be necessary in Mt 27:17 to go with the subjunctive
                  /optative to give the sense of wishing, so I'm incline to go with
                  'þanei' as you suggest.

                  Since I didn't actually grow up saying "thou might(est)" in everyday
                  conversation, all criticism is welcome! I was thinking of 'might' as
                  subjunctive here, used because the ability to drive anyone out is
                  unreal in the opinion of the speaker. Looking now, there seem to be
                  examples of both 'might' and 'might(e)st' sometimes either in the same
                  construction, which makes me think they may have been interchangeable
                  at least in some parts of the modern period. Where Chaucer has 'thogh
                  thou myghtest' in the Merchant's Tale, a modern adaptation has 'though
                  thou might'. Robert Pleasants in the 18th c. writes 'that thou might
                  be better able', but there are lots of 17th c. examples of optative
                  'might(e)st', however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
                  Bible as subjunctive:

                  Though thou mount on high as the eagle, and though thy nest be set
                  among the stars, I will bring thee down from thence, saith Jehovah.
                  (Obadiah 1:4, KJB 1611).

                  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou
                  hast been instructed.
                  (Luke 1:4, KJB 1611).

                  Compare: "Though thou pour the ocean into thy pitcher, It can hold no
                  more than one day's store." (Rumi's Masnavi i Ma'navi, trans.
                  Whinfield 1898).


                  > [...]
                  >
                  > What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
                  > could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
                  > Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
                  > (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).


                  Köbler reconstructs PGmc. *raigjon, F on-stem. OHG has 'réia' and
                  'reiga'. I'm not quite sure to get from this vowel to NHG 'ricke'
                  (Grimm cites dialectal alternatives 'rieke' and 'rücke'), but the
                  survival of /k/ there suggests that it was originally */g/ rather than
                  */gw/. I'm not sure how */wj/ develops in Proto Old English; I'll
                  have to look that up.

                  Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
                • llama_nom
                  ... but -wiseis will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any reason to favour one over the other? Revised to Jah Wulþuwiseis x / x / (x) (Sievers
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    >> /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                    >> that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                    >> parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                    >> *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

                    > Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
                    but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
                    reason to favour one over the other?

                    Revised to 'Jah Wulþuwiseis' x / x / (x) (Sievers type B), on the
                    principle "if there's no indication otherwise, tribes can be i-stems".
                  • ualarauans
                    ... Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I m flattered and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks. /allaim inu hrabna/
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > [...]
                      > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!

                      Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                      and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.

                      /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                      something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                      the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                      allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?

                      Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                      could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?

                      /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                      Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                      unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?

                      /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                      just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                      translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                      alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?

                      /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                      their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?

                      /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                      shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?

                      /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                      with the bolts"
                      and
                      /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                      [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                      intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                      to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                      any examples?

                      /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                      dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                      Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?

                      /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                      above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?

                      And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                      lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!

                      Ualarauans
                    • llama_nom
                      ... Correction, thou might doesn t, but other verbs do. There seems to be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least: For though thou
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > [...] however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
                        > Bible as subjunctive

                        Correction, 'thou might' doesn't, but other verbs do. There seems to
                        be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least:

                        For though thou wash thee with nitre

                        Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee
                        with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in
                        vain shalt thou make thyself fair;

                        though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again,

                        though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away,
                        __________________________________________________________

                        Thanks for the extra comments - and the extra praise! It would be a
                        poorer poem without your help. I'll have a proper look through them
                        tomorrow. Just a couple of replies: 'unhulþo' and 'skohsl', though
                        feminine and neuter respectively, are each found with a masculine
                        adjective on occasion (Mt 9:33, Mk 8:31; and cf. Mk 3:22 þamma
                        reikistin unhulþono)--see Streitberg 236.1. But, given the story, it
                        might be better to make them explicitly male, 'miþ unhulþam'. You're
                        right about 'funsana' and 'gadauþniþ' and 'haubida'...
                      • ualarauans
                        To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there s an attested word Skwþus translating SKUQHS
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a
                          more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there's an attested word
                          Skwþus translating SKUQHS "Scythian" in Col. 3:11, but this clearly
                          was a newly borrowed name, unheard of before the Bible translation.
                          When we are dealing with parts of Getica that apparently go back to
                          the lost Gothic epics (such as the story of the migration into Oium,
                          for example) and mention "Scythia" and "Scythians", a native Gothic
                          term is to be found. In fact, Jordanes recorded several East
                          European ethnonyms in the form presumably close to spoken Gothic
                          variant: these are e. g. Antes (Go. *Anteis pl.) and Spali (Go.
                          *Spalos or *Spalans pl.). Further there is the list of peoples
                          conquered by Ermanaric in Getica 116 where the mysterious
                          Golthescytha thiudos are mentioned. The most plausible of many
                          different interpretations of this name first suggested by von
                          Grienberger (1895) and supported by Stender-Petersen (1927) and
                          Korkkanen (1975) views it as a Latino-Gothic hybrid Gotth[a]e or
                          Gotth[ic]e Scytha-thiudos, that is "Scythian peoples [subjected] to
                          the Goth (= Ermanaric)" or "peoples of Scythia in the Gothic
                          language". This is followed with eleven heavily distorted names of
                          these peoples. The word Scytha-thiudos pl. (cf. Gut-þiuda) seems to
                          comprehend the element Skwþa-, but this is most likely a later
                          conjecture made by Cassiodorus or Jordanes.

                          Currently there are several suggested etymologies of the name of
                          Scythians. The one I find most convincing explains Greek SKUQAI as a
                          phonetic approximation of OIr. *Skuda- or *Skuða- derived from the
                          PIE stem *skeu(d)- "to throw", "to shoot", "to push". Scythians are
                          thus "archers" literally (see for details Oswald Szemerenyi's Four
                          Old Iranian Ethnic Names:..., 1980:20ff). The Germanic reflex of the
                          same stem is PG *skeutan "to shoot", "to cast a missile" >
                          ON skjóta, OE scéotan, OHG skiozan, Crimean Gothic schieten etc.
                          The attested nomen agentis in the historical languages – ON skyti,
                          OE scytta, OHG skuzzo – points towards
                          PG *skutjan- M.-an "shooter", "archer" (ibid.), but cf.
                          ON andskoti "opponent", "adversary" which < *anda-skutan-, lit.
                          "one who shoots back (or against smb.)", without -j- in the suffix.
                          Hence we can reconstruct Go. *skiutan st. v. 2 "to shoot"; *skutja
                          M.-an "archer" and its variant *skuta M.-an. The last form is the
                          closest analogue of the Scythians' ethnonym possible. Semantically
                          it's a perfect designation for a people of steppe nomads with
                          mounted archers comprising next to 100% of its war power.

                          By the time of the Gothic migrations the epoch of the Scythians
                          dominating the steppes north of the Black Sea was long over. They
                          had been effectively replaced by kindred Iranian-speaking tribes of
                          Sarmatians, Alans, Iazyges and others. Their ethnonym must have gone
                          away with them, although the Graeco-Roman authors continued to use
                          it indiscriminately for all nomadic peoples of the Northeast,
                          including the Goths. Thus we are far from being sure of an immediate
                          genetic succession between Scythian self-name *Skuða-ta pl. and
                          hypothetical Go. *Skutans. If the latter was ever used for Iranian
                          (and probably Hunnish as well) neighbors of the Goths, it could well
                          have occured independently. Still, for translation purposes I'd
                          suggest *Skutans and *Skuta-þiuda (*Skuta-land), not Skwþus and its
                          derivatives, whenever it comes to render Scythae and Scythia in the
                          passages of Getica taken from the Gothic oral tradition.

                          Ualarauans

                          P.S. To compare with *Skuta-þiuda is OHG folk
                          sceotantero "Schützenvolk" in Hildebrandslied 51.
                        • llama_nom
                          ... You re right, as usual :-) I ve replaced inu with alja . ... Well, we have got awiliudon , supposing the first element of that is from the same root?
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > [...]
                            > > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
                            >
                            > Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                            > and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.
                            >
                            > /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                            > something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                            > the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                            > allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?


                            You're right, as usual :-) I've replaced 'inu' with 'alja'.



                            > Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                            > could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?


                            Well, we have got 'awiliudon', supposing the first element of that is
                            from the same root?


                            > /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                            > Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                            > unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?


                            Changed to 'unhulþam' as you suggest to emphasise that they're male.


                            > /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                            > just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                            > translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                            > alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?


                            I think either would fit the meaning (cf. 2Cor 13:5), but I've changed
                            to 'unfraisan' for the sake of the extra gratuitous alliteration.


                            > /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                            > their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?


                            Changed to 'Hilms gulþahrudans / ni sat ana haubida im'. I think
                            'haubidam' would be possible, but for singuar, see 'ni indrobnai izwar
                            hairto' = hUMWN hE KARDIA (J 14:1); 'iþ hairto ize' = hE de KARDIA
                            AUTWN (Mk 7:6) = KJB 'their heart' = Icelandic 'hjarta þeirra'.
                            Google turns up lots of examples of Icelandic 'í/á/yfir höfði þeirra',
                            and in st. 60 of the Old Norse Sólarljóð, we find:

                            Marga menn
                            sá ek moldar gengna,
                            þá er eigi máttu þjónustu ná;
                            heiðnar stjörnur
                            stóðu yfir höfði þeim
                            fáðar feiknstöfum.

                            "I saw many dead men who could not take service [with God]. Heathen
                            stars stood over their head[s], painted with evil letters/runes."


                            > /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                            > shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?


                            You're right.


                            > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                            > with the bolts"
                            > and
                            > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                            > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                            > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                            > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                            > any examples?
                            >
                            > /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                            > dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                            > Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?


                            I was trying to get across the idea that Audika (indulging in a bit of
                            traditional flyting before the battle) is telling Ibra that he (Ibra)
                            is fey, i.e. locked into a feverish or trance-like state of mind where
                            his every choice seems to bring death closer, as if he's
                            subconsciously working towards his own destruction, and so there's no
                            helping him, and it shows in the fact that his mind's on ancient
                            glories and tales rather than on the practical realities of the
                            chahged political situation.

                            http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0149.png


                            > /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                            > above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?


                            The plural was deliberate. The nameless grey-haired warrior is on the
                            side of the Huns and Gothic rebels against Airmanareiks. He's
                            addressing the forces loyal to Airmanareiks, currently holed up in
                            their fortified settlement (Ibra and his men). I think he's probably
                            a certain god (harjonds, from the same root as Herjan) who famously
                            turns up at such moments to ensure the battle goes according to his
                            inscrutable plans. He goads the defenders into leaving their position
                            of strength and coming out to fight in the open against superior
                            numbers; he also drops a hint to the attackers clues about how to get
                            them out if they refuse (cf. the end of Völsunga saga), although he
                            knows they won't. The reference to fire and enchantment was meant to
                            be an allusion to the story in Guta saga of the founding of Gotland
                            and how the spell that caused the island to sink every day was lifted
                            with fire; so he's invoking a memory of the very beginning of Gothic
                            history here at what must seem to the participants as something like
                            the end.


                            > And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                            > lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!


                            Þagk þus fairhaita, Walhahrabn, jah allaim fairni-liuþarjam þaim
                            þizeei *hugisahtins (ideas) ik skandalaus hlaf!
                          • llama_nom
                            ... This isn t quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the passive was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus and the active intransitive hve
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                              > with the bolts"
                              > and
                              > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                              > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                              > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                              > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                              > any examples?

                              This isn't quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the
                              passive 'was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus' and the active
                              intransitive 'hve wasjaima', 'gawasjam sarwam liuhadis', 'ni wasjaiþ
                              twaim paidom'. Or 'agisa mikillamma dishaibaida wesun' : 'ohtedun
                              agisa mikilamma'. But can we generalise from that to other uses of
                              the dative? I'll see if I can find a closer match somewhere. Or
                              would a preposition help: miþ, fram, af?
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.