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Translating Getica (cerva) (was Re: Attila's speech)

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  • ualarauans
    Translating Jordanes back into Gothic I stumbled over the word Lat. cerua she-deer , doe (Getica 123-4). It s the fragment where the legend is told of a
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 26, 2007
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      Translating Jordanes "back into Gothic" I stumbled over the word
      Lat. cerua "she-deer", "doe" (Getica 123-4). It's the fragment where
      the legend is told of a doe leading Hunnish hunters the way over the
      Maeotic swamp. I could find several options of reconstructing the
      word for this animal based on evidence of the sister languages.
      These are:

      *algs M.-i "elk" (ON elgr, OE eolh (?), but OHG el(a)ho M.-an).
      However, "elk" is not "deer", strictly spoken. The feminine form
      could probably be *algini F.-jo or maybe just algs F.-i.

      *haíruts M.-a "deer" (ON hjörtr, OE heor(o)t, OHG hiruz). Seems OK
      semantically, but I am at a total loss with probable feminine.
      *hairuti F.-jo?

      *hráins M.-a "reindeer" (ON hreinn, OE hrân). Same is here. Or maybe
      one could use *hrainadius N.-a covering both sexes.

      Now as I was in any case compelled to resort to a reconstruction,
      I thought of another possibility. I speculated that the word (and
      maybe the plot of the story as well) could have been taken by the
      Goths from a non-Germanic language spoken in the area where the
      described event took place. Newcomers are usually apt to borrow
      words for local fauna from natives of the landscape, after all.
      Being not a biologist I can't judge whether the deer of the South
      Russian steppes did to any significant extent differ from the deer
      met in places of the Gothic Urheimat (wherever this have been
      situated). If it really did, then that's an argument for the
      loanword suggestion.

      In my opinion, the donor-language in question could have been
      Sarmatian or Alanic, i. e. Northeastern Iranian. The word is
      OIr. *sâka-, still living in Ossetic sag "hart". One of the major
      Scythian tribes, namely the Sacae, bore this name as their ethnonym
      (so Abaev 1949, rejected by Szemerenyi 1980). The voicing of
      intervocalic k > g occured in Alanic ca. 2nd – 3rd centuries CE
      (Abaev o. c.), while the final vowels were still kept intact. This
      corresponds to the time of the presence of the Goths in the Black
      Sea region. The resulting Gothic form could have been *saga M.-an
      with the meaning "(Scythian steppe) deer". Hence the feminine
      counterpart is *sago F.-on (in Ossetic, they say syl-sag,
      lit. "female deer").

      Possible objection: the first /a/ in presumed Alanic *saga (> Oss.
      sag) must have been a long â. The question is whether the phonetic
      system of Gothic did already have the long â too, and, if not, what
      sound it could have substituted for it. Proto-Germanic did in fact
      turn all â's into ô's, and it involved loanwords too. Examples are
      PCelt. Dânuvios > Go. Dônawi, Lat. Rômânus > Go. Rumôns. But later,
      Gothic developed an â of its own, in words like brâhta, þâhta etc
      where the -âh- is from earlier -anh-. It seems to have been spoken
      without nasalization in the "historical time" (Braune-Helm 1952).
      Later loans from Greek and Latin display Gothic /a/ standing for the
      long vowel: fâskja, pâska (Streitberg 1920). The exact dating of the
      loss of the nasalization however is not known. Also, some dialects
      of Gothic might have been keeping the nasalized pronunciation longer
      than others. In which case the old conventional ô could still have
      been used to render foreign â.

      Ualarauans
    • llama_nom
      Hey there, Ualarauans, I see I ve got a bit of catching up reading recent posts! In the meantime, another Germanic word for deer could be reconstructed as
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 29, 2007
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        Hey there, Ualarauans,

        I see I've got a bit of catching up reading recent posts! In the
        meantime, another Germanic word for "deer" could be reconstructed as

        'raiha' M. -an. (OE 'rá', earlier 'ráha'; OE 'ráh-déor'; ON 'rábukkr'
        "roe-buck", OHG rêh, rêch - but 'rêho' "billy goat").
        'raih(j)o', F. -on. (OE 'ræ:ge', G 'Rehe' - but OHG 'rêia'"she-goat";
        ON 'rá').

        Under Rehe, Grimm lists the following synonyms: ricke, rehe, hille, geisz.

        When I was working on that poem [
        http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm ], I didn't realise (or else
        had forgotten) that the deer was female in Jordanes. I referred to it
        as 'hairuts', 'raiha' and less specifically 'dius' "animal". So I
        might have to revise that. Or just call it an alternative tradition...

        > *haíruts M.-a "deer" (ON hjörtr, OE heor(o)t, OHG hiruz). Seems OK
        > semantically, but I am at a total loss with probable feminine.
        > *hairuti F.-jo?

        It would be handy for my alliteration if we could find one. I wonder
        what Grimm's 'hille' comes from.

        > Possible objection: the first /a/ in presumed Alanic *saga (> Oss.
        > sag) must have been a long â. The question is whether the phonetic
        > system of Gothic did already have the long â too, and, if not, what
        > sound it could have substituted for it. Proto-Germanic did in fact
        > turn all â's into ô's, and it involved loanwords too. Examples are
        > PCelt. Dânuvios > Go. Dônawi, Lat. Rômânus > Go. Rumôns. But later,
        > Gothic developed an â of its own, in words like brâhta, þâhta etc
        > where the -âh- is from earlier -anh-. It seems to have been spoken
        > without nasalization in the "historical time" (Braune-Helm 1952).
        > Later loans from Greek and Latin display Gothic /a/ standing for the
        > long vowel: fâskja, pâska (Streitberg 1920). The exact dating of the
        > loss of the nasalization however is not known. Also, some dialects
        > of Gothic might have been keeping the nasalized pronunciation longer
        > than others. In which case the old conventional ô could still have
        > been used to render foreign â.

        The change /a:/ to /o:/ is very early, already in complete in
        Proto-Germanic. The loss of /n/ before /h/ and compensatory
        lengthening is also shared by all branches of Germanic, so unless more
        information comes to light, I'd guess Alanic /a:/ would find its
        closest match in Gothic /a:/ (whether nasalised or not).

        LN
      • ualarauans
        Hi Lama, ... as ... ON rábukkr ... goat ; ... hille, geisz. ... else ... to it ... tradition... There s actually some evidence for an alternative tradition.
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 29, 2007
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          Hi Lama,

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hey there, Ualarauans,
          >
          > I see I've got a bit of catching up reading recent posts! In the
          > meantime, another Germanic word for "deer" could be reconstructed
          as
          >
          > 'raiha' M. -an. (OE 'rá', earlier 'ráha'; OE 'ráh-déor';
          ON 'rábukkr'
          > "roe-buck", OHG rêh, rêch - but 'rêho' "billy goat").
          > 'raih(j)o', F. -on. (OE 'ræ:ge', G 'Rehe' - but OHG 'rêia'"she-
          goat";
          > ON 'rá').
          >
          > Under Rehe, Grimm lists the following synonyms: ricke, rehe,
          hille, geisz.
          >
          > When I was working on that poem [
          > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm ], I didn't realise (or
          else
          > had forgotten) that the deer was female in Jordanes. I referred
          to it
          > as 'hairuts', 'raiha' and less specifically 'dius' "animal". So I
          > might have to revise that. Or just call it an alternative
          tradition...

          There's actually some evidence for an alternative tradition. In
          several versions of the deer-legend the animal could have been male.
          The Old Church Slavonic translation of the Simeon Logotheta's
          Chronicle (10th ct.) says: GotQi prêshídúshe Meotískoje jezero
          elafomí vodimi "The Goths (sic!) having crossed the Maeotic lake led
          by a deer (masculine)", where elafomí (instr. sg. of elafú*) is of
          course Greek ELAFOS which can be both masculine and feminine. The
          Hungarian legend mentions szarvas "stag" (see
          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4894). Hungarian
          doesn't distinguish grammatical genders, but szarvas seems to be
          borrowed from a satem IE (Iranian?) masculine word cognate to Lat.
          cervus.

          Still, Sozomenus (Hist. Eccl. VI, 37) writes: ELAFOS DIAFUGOUSA
          (feminine). Procopius (Bell. Goth. IV, 5) writes: ELAFON DE MIAN
          PROS AUTWN FEUFOUSAN (feminine); THi ELAFWi EPISPESQAI TAUTHi
          (feminine). Agathias (Hist. V, 11): EITE hWS ALLHQWS ELAFOU TINOS
          KATA TOUTO DH TO QRULOUMENON TA PRWTA hHGHSAMENHS (feminine).

          > > *haíruts M.-a "deer" (ON hjörtr, OE heor(o)t, OHG hiruz). Seems
          OK
          > > semantically, but I am at a total loss with probable feminine.
          > > *hairuti F.-jo?
          >
          > It would be handy for my alliteration if we could find one. I
          wonder
          > what Grimm's 'hille' comes from.

          In MHG hilde, hille meant "eifrig", "rasch", "geschäftig". Is this
          it? Fick-Falk-Torp (1909) explain it as a probable cognate of PG
          *haldan with the original meaning "(Vieh) hüten".

          Ualarauans
        • llama_nom
          A couple more possibilities: Go. *hinda F -o, or *hindo F -on (OE hind, ON hind; OLG *hinda (MDu., Du. hinde), OHG hinta (MHG, Ger. hinde), wk. fem. The OED
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 30, 2007
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            A couple more possibilities:

            Go. *hinda F -o, or *hindo F -on (OE hind, ON hind; OLG *hinda (MDu.,
            Du. hinde), OHG hinta (MHG, Ger. hinde), wk. fem. The OED says "some
            suggest derivation from Goth. hinþan to catch; others would connect it
            with Gr. KEMAS young deer, pricket."

            Go. ?*dámo F -on (masc. ?*dáma M -an). But the exact connection
            between English and North Germanic, on the one hand, and German on the
            other is unclear.

            Under 'doe', the OED has:

            "OE. dá is thought by some to be a contracted form, cognate with OHG.
            tâmo, dâmo wk. masc., MHG. tâme, G. dam- (in damhirsch, damwild), a.
            L. dáma, damma f., sometimes m., fallow deer, buck, doe; but there are
            serious difficulties. See Pogatscher Gr. Lat. u. Rom. Lehnworte im
            Altengl. §302."

            Grimm, under Damhirsch, mentions "althd. tâmo und tâm GRAFF 5, 422,
            mhd. tâme, tâmel; ags. dâ; dän. daa, daahjort, [...] ital. daino,
            daina; franz. daim, daine".
          • ualarauans
            ... (MDu., ... says some ... connect it ... FFT say it s from PG *hindî ( Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems strange to me. They also say it s from earlier
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 30, 2007
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
              >
              > Go. *hinda F -o, or *hindo F -on (OE hind, ON hind; OLG *hinda
              (MDu.,
              > Du. hinde), OHG hinta (MHG, Ger. hinde), wk. fem. The OED
              says "some
              > suggest derivation from Goth. hinþan to catch; others would
              connect it
              > with Gr. KEMAS young deer, pricket."

              FFT say it's from PG *hindî (> Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems
              strange to me. They also say it's from earlier *hemdî and cognate to
              KEMAS (Gen. KEMADOS). Interestingly, NHG has Hinde and Hindin, both
              feminine. I guess it's this latter Hindin (with an "extra"
              feminizator) which led some to conclude about an –în- stem. OE and
              ON as I can gather are F.-o, right?

              -------------------------------------------------

              Þata was leitil waiht, / liþau unmahteig. / HINDA (?) hvarboda / af
              hairdai ainA. / Jah seiþu warþ. / Jah saurgandEI warþ. / FralusanA
              in fanja, / SI rann framis.

              hatiza, iþ RAIHON / rinnan lailotun. / Nahts neiþhardus. / Fraus
              nasos IZOS smalos.

              Is it OK with the rhyme now I wonder?

              Ualarauans
            • Francisc Czobor
              Hi, Ualarauans, There might be a connection between the Hungarian szarvas and Latin cervus , but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form szarv horn,
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 1, 2007
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                Hi, Ualarauans,

                There might be a connection between the Hungarian "szarvas" and
                Latin "cervus", but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form
                szarv "horn, antler", the meaning being "having horns/antlers". As
                substantive it means "deer" (any gender), and as adjective: "with
                horns/antlers, horned", as in the compound szarvasmarha "horned
                cattle".
                The word szarv "horn" is common Finno-Ugrian, having cognates in all
                other Finno-Ugrian languages (Finnish: sarvi; Estonian: sarv;
                Livonian: so:ra, sa:ra; Saami [Lappish]: c^oar've; Mordvin: s'uro,
                s'ura; Mari [Cheremis]: s^ur; Udmurt: s'ur; Komi: s'ur; Khanty
                [Ostyak]: s'arBi; Mansi [Vogul]: s'o:re). This common Finno-Ugrian
                word is considered to be of Indo-European (satem, most probably
                Iranic) origin (cf. Avestan sru:, srva:, Mod. Pers. seru:, suru:[n];
                other cognates mentioned there are Latin cervus and German Horn).
                (source: A Magyar Nyelv Történeti-Etimológiai Szótára [The Historical-
                Etymological Dictionary of the Hungarian Language], Akadémiai Kiadó,
                Budapest, 1976)
                The old Hungarian chronicles mentioning the deer-legend were written
                in Latin, the oldest of them being that of Simon de Keza (written
                1282-1285) (followed by the Chronicon Hungariae Pictum / Painted
                Chronicle of Vienna, written around 1360, etc.). Until now, I have
                found only modern Hungarian translations of Keza's work, where the
                animal appears sometimes as "gímszarvas" (stag), sometimes
                as "szarvas ünö" (doe). But, finally, I have found the Latin text,
                only a part of it, but containing the passage of interest
                (http://www.konyv-e.hu/pdf/Kezai-latin-r.pdf): there is clearly about
                a "cerva" ! The passage reads:
                "Accidit autem dierum una venandi causa ipsos perrexisse; quibus in
                deserto cum cerva occurrisset, in paludes Meotidas illam insequentes,
                fugiit ante eos. Cumque ibi ab oculis eorum prorsus vanuisset,
                diutius requisitam invenire nullo modo potuerunt. Peragratis tandem
                paludibus memoratis pro armentis nutriendis ipsam conspexerant
                oportunam."
                The influence of Iordanes is obvious.

                Francisc



                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                > ...
                > There's actually some evidence for an alternative tradition. In
                > several versions of the deer-legend the animal could have been
                male.
                > The Old Church Slavonic translation of the Simeon Logotheta's
                > Chronicle (10th ct.) says: GotQi prêshídúshe Meotískoje jezero
                > elafomí vodimi "The Goths (sic!) having crossed the Maeotic lake
                led
                > by a deer (masculine)", where elafomí (instr. sg. of elafú*) is of
                > course Greek ELAFOS which can be both masculine and feminine. The
                > Hungarian legend mentions szarvas "stag" (see
                > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4894).
                Hungarian
                > doesn't distinguish grammatical genders, but szarvas seems to be
                > borrowed from a satem IE (Iranian?) masculine word cognate to Lat.
                > cervus.
                > ...
              • ualarauans
                Hi Francisc, ... all ... [n]; ... Historical- ... Kiadó, ... At first I thought szarvas preserves Indo-Iranian a-stem masculine ending -as, much like Finnish
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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                  Hi Francisc,

                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > There might be a connection between the Hungarian "szarvas" and
                  > Latin "cervus", but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form
                  > szarv "horn, antler", the meaning being "having horns/antlers". As
                  > substantive it means "deer" (any gender), and as adjective: "with
                  > horns/antlers, horned", as in the compound szarvasmarha "horned
                  > cattle".
                  > The word szarv "horn" is common Finno-Ugrian, having cognates in
                  all
                  > other Finno-Ugrian languages (Finnish: sarvi; Estonian: sarv;
                  > Livonian: so:ra, sa:ra; Saami [Lappish]: c^oar've; Mordvin: s'uro,
                  > s'ura; Mari [Cheremis]: s^ur; Udmurt: s'ur; Komi: s'ur; Khanty
                  > [Ostyak]: s'arBi; Mansi [Vogul]: s'o:re). This common Finno-Ugrian
                  > word is considered to be of Indo-European (satem, most probably
                  > Iranic) origin (cf. Avestan sru:, srva:, Mod. Pers. seru:, suru:
                  [n];
                  > other cognates mentioned there are Latin cervus and German Horn).
                  > (source: A Magyar Nyelv Történeti-Etimológiai Szótára [The
                  Historical-
                  > Etymological Dictionary of the Hungarian Language], Akadémiai
                  Kiadó,
                  > Budapest, 1976)

                  At first I thought szarvas preserves Indo-Iranian a-stem masculine
                  ending -as, much like Finnish germanisms do. The expected proto-word
                  could be then smth like *s'arvas "horned animal" < PIE *k'er@w-:
                  *k'r.w-o- (Pokorny I, 576) – cf. Lith. kárve, OCSl. krava (both
                  fem.) "cow", OPruss. kurwis "ox" (with a surprising initial k- in
                  otherwise satem languages). Now I see from your exposition that
                  the -as in szarvas is a Hungarian suffix and does not account for
                  gender. Thank you for clearing this up.

                  > The old Hungarian chronicles mentioning the deer-legend were
                  written
                  > in Latin, the oldest of them being that of Simon de Keza (written
                  > 1282-1285) (followed by the Chronicon Hungariae Pictum / Painted
                  > Chronicle of Vienna, written around 1360, etc.). Until now, I have
                  > found only modern Hungarian translations of Keza's work, where the
                  > animal appears sometimes as "gímszarvas" (stag), sometimes
                  > as "szarvas ünö" (doe). But, finally, I have found the Latin text,
                  > only a part of it, but containing the passage of interest
                  > (http://www.konyv-e.hu/pdf/Kezai-latin-r.pdf): there is clearly
                  about
                  > a "cerva" ! The passage reads:
                  > "Accidit autem dierum una venandi causa ipsos perrexisse; quibus in
                  > deserto cum cerva occurrisset, in paludes Meotidas illam
                  insequentes,
                  > fugiit ante eos. Cumque ibi ab oculis eorum prorsus vanuisset,
                  > diutius requisitam invenire nullo modo potuerunt. Peragratis tandem
                  > paludibus memoratis pro armentis nutriendis ipsam conspexerant
                  > oportunam."
                  > The influence of Iordanes is obvious.

                  It is obvious indeed. Thank you for citing this source. Well, looks
                  like one argument less for a male deer. Now what we have for a "doe"
                  in Gothic (a bit of summing up):

                  *hinda F.-o (*hindo F.-on; *hindei F.-ein)
                  *raiho F.-on (*raihjo F.-on)
                  *sago F.-on

                  *demo (?) F.-on seems really problematic...

                  Ualarauans
                • llama_nom
                  ... OE has acc.sg. hinde , consistent with F. -o, although the i-stems could take acc.sg. too by analogy with o-stems. I m not sure about ON; just one
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > FFT say it's from PG *hindî (> Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems
                    > strange to me. They also say it's from earlier *hemdî and cognate to
                    > KEMAS (Gen. KEMADOS). Interestingly, NHG has Hinde and Hindin, both
                    > feminine. I guess it's this latter Hindin (with an "extra"
                    > feminizator) which led some to conclude about an –în- stem. OE and
                    > ON as I can gather are F.-o, right?

                    OE has acc.sg. 'hinde', consistent with F. -o, although the i-stems
                    could take acc.sg. too by analogy with o-stems. I'm not sure about
                    ON; just one example in the Orðabók Háskólans textasafn, in the singular:

                    http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?lemma=hind&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m1=hind+hinda+hindanna+hindar+hindarinnar+hindin+hindina+hindinni+hindir+hindirnar+hindum+hindunum+hindurnar&l1=Leita&lmax=1

                    sáu þeir hind eina stóra ok væna ok ríða þar eptir
                    (Hjálmars saga ok Ölvis).

                    Modern Icelandic has gen.sg. -ar, nom./acc.pl. ir., but a lot of
                    o-stems have come to be declined like this. The OHG on-stem 'hinta'
                    would look the same in the nom.sg. as an o-stem, so for now, I'm guess
                    ing that it was originally an o-stem.


                    > -------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Þata was leitil waiht, / liþau unmahteig. / HINDA (?) hvarboda / af
                    > hairdai ainA. / Jah seiþu warþ. / Jah saurgandEI warþ. / FralusanA
                    > in fanja, / SI rann framis.
                    >
                    > hatiza, iþ RAIHON / rinnan lailotun. / Nahts neiþhardus. / Fraus
                    > nasos IZOS smalos.
                    >
                    > Is it OK with the rhyme now I wonder?

                    Well, it does bad things to the meter in a couple of places ;-) But
                    we can solve that easy enough:

                    B ... Þata was leitil waiht, ....x x x / x /
                    D ... liþau unmahteig. ........../ (x) / \ x
                    B ... Af hairdai hvarb ..........x / x /
                    A ... hinda aina. .............../ x / x
                    B ... Jah seiþu warþ. ...........x / x /
                    E ... Saurgandei warþ. ........../ \ x /
                    A ... Fralusana in fanja ........(x) / (x) x / x
                    A ... si rann framis. ...........x x / x

                    (Or 'Jah seiþu warþ, jah saurgandei... x / x / . x / \ x)

                    Technical jiggery-pokery: Verbal prefixes and the negatve particle
                    'ni' are allowed in an on-line (odd line) of Sievers type A or D. The
                    final line is Sievers type A3 (single delayed lift), cf. OE 'se wæs
                    mín fæder', with "resolution" blocked by the not entirely unstressed
                    preceding word.

                    As an alternative to Go. *raih(j)o, we could perhaps have Go. *raigjo
                    (which fits exactly with the OE and OHG forms). Gothic levels out
                    Verner's Law forms in the strong verbs and elsewhere, and may well
                    have done here by analogy with 'raiha', but maybe not.
                  • llama_nom
                    There we go: http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over from before the deer s gender change
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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                      There we go:

                      http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm

                      Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                      from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I *think* I
                      got them all...
                    • ualarauans
                      ... *think* I ... The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/ which is translated She was hard pressed . But this may refer to /þata
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > There we go:
                        >
                        > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
                        >
                        > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                        > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
                        *think* I
                        > got them all...

                        The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
                        which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
                        to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.

                        A couple more comments while we are upon it...

                        /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?

                        /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                        that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                        parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                        *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

                        /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
                        seljaizos?

                        /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)

                        /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
                        thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
                        no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
                        but is it not "thou mightest"?

                        And I like your *niqis for "water monster" (or smth like this)!


                        What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
                        could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
                        Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
                        (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).

                        Ualarauans
                      • llama_nom
                        ... That s what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of the meter, and because dius was the last noun mentioned. But given what
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > There we go:
                          > >
                          > > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
                          > >
                          > > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                          > > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
                          > *think* I
                          > > got them all...
                          >
                          > The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
                          > which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
                          > to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.


                          That's what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of
                          the meter, and because 'dius' was the last noun mentioned. But given
                          what Streitberg says in section 236.1-2, and Wright in 429.1-2 about
                          natural gender sometimes taking precedence over grammatical gender, I
                          suspect either would be acceptable here (feminine because we know the
                          animal is female, or neuter because of the gender of 'dius'). I stuck
                          to feminine in the English translation though because we've lost the
                          idea of arbitrary grammatical gender on nouns, so it might be a bit
                          confusing to shift back and forth between neuter and feminine
                          (although even in English there's some leeway when talking about animals).


                          > A couple more comments while we are upon it...
                          >
                          > /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?


                          You're right, of course. Incidentally, the prefixed and unprefixed
                          forms can both be used perfectively: 'nahtamat waurhta' (Mk 6:21) :
                          'gawaurhtedun imma nahtamat' (J 12:2).


                          > /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                          > that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                          > parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                          > *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?


                          Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
                          but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
                          reason to favour one over the other?


                          > /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
                          > seljaizos?


                          Yes, well spotted! Hmm, I'm getting a slight sense of deja-vu here, a
                          nasty feeling that maybe I saw this months ago and got distracted by
                          something else before I got round to correcting it...


                          > /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)


                          Argh, extremely well spotted! I had to read this three times before I
                          saw what was wrong with it! At first I assumed you must be pointing
                          out a grammatical error, so I looked at the poem, couldn't see what it
                          was, then looked back here, and only then did the penny drop.


                          >
                          > /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
                          > thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
                          > no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
                          > but is it not "thou mightest"?


                          I was thinking of 'hvana wileiþ ei fraletau izwis?' (Mt 27:17). But
                          then we've also got 'þana gawenja þammei managizo fragaf' (L 7:43).
                          And the 'ei' might be necessary in Mt 27:17 to go with the subjunctive
                          /optative to give the sense of wishing, so I'm incline to go with
                          'þanei' as you suggest.

                          Since I didn't actually grow up saying "thou might(est)" in everyday
                          conversation, all criticism is welcome! I was thinking of 'might' as
                          subjunctive here, used because the ability to drive anyone out is
                          unreal in the opinion of the speaker. Looking now, there seem to be
                          examples of both 'might' and 'might(e)st' sometimes either in the same
                          construction, which makes me think they may have been interchangeable
                          at least in some parts of the modern period. Where Chaucer has 'thogh
                          thou myghtest' in the Merchant's Tale, a modern adaptation has 'though
                          thou might'. Robert Pleasants in the 18th c. writes 'that thou might
                          be better able', but there are lots of 17th c. examples of optative
                          'might(e)st', however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
                          Bible as subjunctive:

                          Though thou mount on high as the eagle, and though thy nest be set
                          among the stars, I will bring thee down from thence, saith Jehovah.
                          (Obadiah 1:4, KJB 1611).

                          That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou
                          hast been instructed.
                          (Luke 1:4, KJB 1611).

                          Compare: "Though thou pour the ocean into thy pitcher, It can hold no
                          more than one day's store." (Rumi's Masnavi i Ma'navi, trans.
                          Whinfield 1898).


                          > [...]
                          >
                          > What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
                          > could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
                          > Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
                          > (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).


                          Köbler reconstructs PGmc. *raigjon, F on-stem. OHG has 'réia' and
                          'reiga'. I'm not quite sure to get from this vowel to NHG 'ricke'
                          (Grimm cites dialectal alternatives 'rieke' and 'rücke'), but the
                          survival of /k/ there suggests that it was originally */g/ rather than
                          */gw/. I'm not sure how */wj/ develops in Proto Old English; I'll
                          have to look that up.

                          Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
                        • llama_nom
                          ... but -wiseis will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any reason to favour one over the other? Revised to Jah Wulþuwiseis x / x / (x) (Sievers
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                            >> /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                            >> that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                            >> parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                            >> *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

                            > Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
                            but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
                            reason to favour one over the other?

                            Revised to 'Jah Wulþuwiseis' x / x / (x) (Sievers type B), on the
                            principle "if there's no indication otherwise, tribes can be i-stems".
                          • ualarauans
                            ... Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I m flattered and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks. /allaim inu hrabna/
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > [...]
                              > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!

                              Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                              and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.

                              /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                              something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                              the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                              allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?

                              Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                              could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?

                              /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                              Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                              unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?

                              /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                              just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                              translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                              alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?

                              /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                              their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?

                              /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                              shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?

                              /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                              with the bolts"
                              and
                              /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                              [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                              intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                              to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                              any examples?

                              /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                              dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                              Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?

                              /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                              above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?

                              And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                              lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!

                              Ualarauans
                            • llama_nom
                              ... Correction, thou might doesn t, but other verbs do. There seems to be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least: For though thou
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > [...] however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
                                > Bible as subjunctive

                                Correction, 'thou might' doesn't, but other verbs do. There seems to
                                be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least:

                                For though thou wash thee with nitre

                                Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee
                                with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in
                                vain shalt thou make thyself fair;

                                though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again,

                                though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away,
                                __________________________________________________________

                                Thanks for the extra comments - and the extra praise! It would be a
                                poorer poem without your help. I'll have a proper look through them
                                tomorrow. Just a couple of replies: 'unhulþo' and 'skohsl', though
                                feminine and neuter respectively, are each found with a masculine
                                adjective on occasion (Mt 9:33, Mk 8:31; and cf. Mk 3:22 þamma
                                reikistin unhulþono)--see Streitberg 236.1. But, given the story, it
                                might be better to make them explicitly male, 'miþ unhulþam'. You're
                                right about 'funsana' and 'gadauþniþ' and 'haubida'...
                              • ualarauans
                                To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there s an attested word Skwþus translating SKUQHS
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                  To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a
                                  more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there's an attested word
                                  Skwþus translating SKUQHS "Scythian" in Col. 3:11, but this clearly
                                  was a newly borrowed name, unheard of before the Bible translation.
                                  When we are dealing with parts of Getica that apparently go back to
                                  the lost Gothic epics (such as the story of the migration into Oium,
                                  for example) and mention "Scythia" and "Scythians", a native Gothic
                                  term is to be found. In fact, Jordanes recorded several East
                                  European ethnonyms in the form presumably close to spoken Gothic
                                  variant: these are e. g. Antes (Go. *Anteis pl.) and Spali (Go.
                                  *Spalos or *Spalans pl.). Further there is the list of peoples
                                  conquered by Ermanaric in Getica 116 where the mysterious
                                  Golthescytha thiudos are mentioned. The most plausible of many
                                  different interpretations of this name first suggested by von
                                  Grienberger (1895) and supported by Stender-Petersen (1927) and
                                  Korkkanen (1975) views it as a Latino-Gothic hybrid Gotth[a]e or
                                  Gotth[ic]e Scytha-thiudos, that is "Scythian peoples [subjected] to
                                  the Goth (= Ermanaric)" or "peoples of Scythia in the Gothic
                                  language". This is followed with eleven heavily distorted names of
                                  these peoples. The word Scytha-thiudos pl. (cf. Gut-þiuda) seems to
                                  comprehend the element Skwþa-, but this is most likely a later
                                  conjecture made by Cassiodorus or Jordanes.

                                  Currently there are several suggested etymologies of the name of
                                  Scythians. The one I find most convincing explains Greek SKUQAI as a
                                  phonetic approximation of OIr. *Skuda- or *Skuða- derived from the
                                  PIE stem *skeu(d)- "to throw", "to shoot", "to push". Scythians are
                                  thus "archers" literally (see for details Oswald Szemerenyi's Four
                                  Old Iranian Ethnic Names:..., 1980:20ff). The Germanic reflex of the
                                  same stem is PG *skeutan "to shoot", "to cast a missile" >
                                  ON skjóta, OE scéotan, OHG skiozan, Crimean Gothic schieten etc.
                                  The attested nomen agentis in the historical languages – ON skyti,
                                  OE scytta, OHG skuzzo – points towards
                                  PG *skutjan- M.-an "shooter", "archer" (ibid.), but cf.
                                  ON andskoti "opponent", "adversary" which < *anda-skutan-, lit.
                                  "one who shoots back (or against smb.)", without -j- in the suffix.
                                  Hence we can reconstruct Go. *skiutan st. v. 2 "to shoot"; *skutja
                                  M.-an "archer" and its variant *skuta M.-an. The last form is the
                                  closest analogue of the Scythians' ethnonym possible. Semantically
                                  it's a perfect designation for a people of steppe nomads with
                                  mounted archers comprising next to 100% of its war power.

                                  By the time of the Gothic migrations the epoch of the Scythians
                                  dominating the steppes north of the Black Sea was long over. They
                                  had been effectively replaced by kindred Iranian-speaking tribes of
                                  Sarmatians, Alans, Iazyges and others. Their ethnonym must have gone
                                  away with them, although the Graeco-Roman authors continued to use
                                  it indiscriminately for all nomadic peoples of the Northeast,
                                  including the Goths. Thus we are far from being sure of an immediate
                                  genetic succession between Scythian self-name *Skuða-ta pl. and
                                  hypothetical Go. *Skutans. If the latter was ever used for Iranian
                                  (and probably Hunnish as well) neighbors of the Goths, it could well
                                  have occured independently. Still, for translation purposes I'd
                                  suggest *Skutans and *Skuta-þiuda (*Skuta-land), not Skwþus and its
                                  derivatives, whenever it comes to render Scythae and Scythia in the
                                  passages of Getica taken from the Gothic oral tradition.

                                  Ualarauans

                                  P.S. To compare with *Skuta-þiuda is OHG folk
                                  sceotantero "Schützenvolk" in Hildebrandslied 51.
                                • llama_nom
                                  ... You re right, as usual :-) I ve replaced inu with alja . ... Well, we have got awiliudon , supposing the first element of that is from the same root?
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
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                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > [...]
                                    > > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
                                    >
                                    > Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                                    > and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.
                                    >
                                    > /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                                    > something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                                    > the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                                    > allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?


                                    You're right, as usual :-) I've replaced 'inu' with 'alja'.



                                    > Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                                    > could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?


                                    Well, we have got 'awiliudon', supposing the first element of that is
                                    from the same root?


                                    > /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                                    > Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                                    > unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?


                                    Changed to 'unhulþam' as you suggest to emphasise that they're male.


                                    > /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                                    > just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                                    > translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                                    > alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?


                                    I think either would fit the meaning (cf. 2Cor 13:5), but I've changed
                                    to 'unfraisan' for the sake of the extra gratuitous alliteration.


                                    > /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                                    > their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?


                                    Changed to 'Hilms gulþahrudans / ni sat ana haubida im'. I think
                                    'haubidam' would be possible, but for singuar, see 'ni indrobnai izwar
                                    hairto' = hUMWN hE KARDIA (J 14:1); 'iþ hairto ize' = hE de KARDIA
                                    AUTWN (Mk 7:6) = KJB 'their heart' = Icelandic 'hjarta þeirra'.
                                    Google turns up lots of examples of Icelandic 'í/á/yfir höfði þeirra',
                                    and in st. 60 of the Old Norse Sólarljóð, we find:

                                    Marga menn
                                    sá ek moldar gengna,
                                    þá er eigi máttu þjónustu ná;
                                    heiðnar stjörnur
                                    stóðu yfir höfði þeim
                                    fáðar feiknstöfum.

                                    "I saw many dead men who could not take service [with God]. Heathen
                                    stars stood over their head[s], painted with evil letters/runes."


                                    > /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                                    > shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?


                                    You're right.


                                    > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                                    > with the bolts"
                                    > and
                                    > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                                    > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                                    > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                                    > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                                    > any examples?
                                    >
                                    > /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                                    > dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                                    > Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?


                                    I was trying to get across the idea that Audika (indulging in a bit of
                                    traditional flyting before the battle) is telling Ibra that he (Ibra)
                                    is fey, i.e. locked into a feverish or trance-like state of mind where
                                    his every choice seems to bring death closer, as if he's
                                    subconsciously working towards his own destruction, and so there's no
                                    helping him, and it shows in the fact that his mind's on ancient
                                    glories and tales rather than on the practical realities of the
                                    chahged political situation.

                                    http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0149.png


                                    > /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                                    > above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?


                                    The plural was deliberate. The nameless grey-haired warrior is on the
                                    side of the Huns and Gothic rebels against Airmanareiks. He's
                                    addressing the forces loyal to Airmanareiks, currently holed up in
                                    their fortified settlement (Ibra and his men). I think he's probably
                                    a certain god (harjonds, from the same root as Herjan) who famously
                                    turns up at such moments to ensure the battle goes according to his
                                    inscrutable plans. He goads the defenders into leaving their position
                                    of strength and coming out to fight in the open against superior
                                    numbers; he also drops a hint to the attackers clues about how to get
                                    them out if they refuse (cf. the end of Völsunga saga), although he
                                    knows they won't. The reference to fire and enchantment was meant to
                                    be an allusion to the story in Guta saga of the founding of Gotland
                                    and how the spell that caused the island to sink every day was lifted
                                    with fire; so he's invoking a memory of the very beginning of Gothic
                                    history here at what must seem to the participants as something like
                                    the end.


                                    > And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                                    > lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!


                                    Þagk þus fairhaita, Walhahrabn, jah allaim fairni-liuþarjam þaim
                                    þizeei *hugisahtins (ideas) ik skandalaus hlaf!
                                  • llama_nom
                                    ... This isn t quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the passive was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus and the active intransitive hve
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
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                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                                      > with the bolts"
                                      > and
                                      > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                                      > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                                      > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                                      > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                                      > any examples?

                                      This isn't quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the
                                      passive 'was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus' and the active
                                      intransitive 'hve wasjaima', 'gawasjam sarwam liuhadis', 'ni wasjaiþ
                                      twaim paidom'. Or 'agisa mikillamma dishaibaida wesun' : 'ohtedun
                                      agisa mikilamma'. But can we generalise from that to other uses of
                                      the dative? I'll see if I can find a closer match somewhere. Or
                                      would a preposition help: miþ, fram, af?
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