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  • Michael Erwin
    I mentioned before my efforts to translate labor-movement songs into Gothic - however anachronistic they may be. I paraphrase-translated the first verse and
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 8, 2007
      I mentioned before my efforts to translate labor-movement songs into
      Gothic - however anachronistic they may be. I paraphrase-translated
      the first verse and chorus of Ralph Chaplin's "Commonwealth of Toil"
      tonight. I'm not very good at this but practice makes ... better.

      Commonwealth of Toil

      by Ralph Chaplin

      In the gloom of mighty cities
      mid the roar of whirling wheels
      we are toiling on like chattel slaves of old.
      And our masters ever seek
      to keep us thus beneath their feet
      and to coin our very life-blood into gold.

      In sa skadus baurgim mikilaim
      miþ *hjulam *ƕirandam
      arbaidjam samana skalkos aiwe sineiga.
      Jah unsar reikos lustand
      du haban uns atbrukjanda
      jah du *maunetan unsar bloþ du gulda.

      Chorus:
      But we have a glowing dream
      of how fair the world will seem
      when we each can live our lives secure and free -
      when the earth is owned by labor
      and there's joy and peace for all
      in the commonwealth of toil that is to be.

      Þan habam *glaujand draum af
      ƕaiwa haila airþai wairþiþ
      ƕan ains jah alls skulum libam in friþau -
      ƕan gawaurstwans aigun airþa
      miþ leikainai jah freihala
      in þizos gamainons botos gawaurtswane.

      (remaining verses not yet translated)

      Okay, the first verse is much more literal than the chorus. I
      couldn't find any suitable common-Germanic root for either roar or
      whirl - the former is only attested in West-Germanic and the latter
      is first attested in North-Germanic - but decided that they were
      better than nothing (I ultimately chose WG "howl" over WG "roar").
      The other biggies were "coin," "glow," and, of course, "commonwealth."

      (I wanted to avoid trying the ones with lines like "with one big
      industrial union" for the time being).

      To make the meter more-or-less hang together (the syllable count
      should work but the rhythm won't), I subbed "in friþau" for "secure
      and free" - and subbed "freihala" for "peace" two lines later. Also
      dropped "that is to be."

      Mike
    • ualarauans
      ... into ... Toil ... course, commonwealth. For wheel I d suggest Gothic *hvaéhvul or *hviwul (both N.-a) formed after PG reduplications *hwehwula- and
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 9, 2007
        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
        >
        > I mentioned before my efforts to translate labor-movement songs
        into
        > Gothic - however anachronistic they may be. I paraphrase-translated
        > the first verse and chorus of Ralph Chaplin's "Commonwealth of
        Toil"
        > tonight. I'm not very good at this but practice makes ... better.
        >
        > Commonwealth of Toil
        >
        > by Ralph Chaplin
        >
        > In the gloom of mighty cities
        > mid the roar of whirling wheels
        > we are toiling on like chattel slaves of old.
        > And our masters ever seek
        > to keep us thus beneath their feet
        > and to coin our very life-blood into gold.
        >
        > In sa skadus baurgim mikilaim
        > miþ *hjulam *hvirandam
        > arbaidjam samana skalkos aiwe sineiga.
        > Jah unsar reikos lustand
        > du haban uns atbrukjanda
        > jah du *maunetan unsar bloþ du gulda.
        >
        > Chorus:
        > But we have a glowing dream
        > of how fair the world will seem
        > when we each can live our lives secure and free -
        > when the earth is owned by labor
        > and there's joy and peace for all
        > in the commonwealth of toil that is to be.
        >
        > Þan habam *glaujand draum af
        > hvaiwa haila airþai wairþiþ
        > hvan ains jah alls skulum libam in friþau -
        > hvan gawaurstwans aigun airþa
        > miþ leikainai jah freihala
        > in þizos gamainons botos gawaurtswane.
        >
        > (remaining verses not yet translated)
        >
        > Okay, the first verse is much more literal than the chorus. I
        > couldn't find any suitable common-Germanic root for either roar or
        > whirl - the former is only attested in West-Germanic and the latter
        > is first attested in North-Germanic - but decided that they were
        > better than nothing (I ultimately chose WG "howl" over WG "roar").
        > The other biggies were "coin," "glow," and, of
        course, "commonwealth."

        For "wheel" I'd suggest Gothic *hvaéhvul or *hviwul (both N.-a)
        formed after PG reduplications *hwehwula- and *hwegwula-
        respectively. One can't be sure which variant – voiceless or voiced –
        was more likely to appear in Gothic (or did they co-exist like OE
        hwéol and hweogul?). "Mid the [roar of] whirling wheels" = in
        midjaim windandam hvaihvulam?

        Another PG word for "wheel" is *raþa- (> NHG Rad). BTW, its Celtic
        cognate is attested as a part of the compound petor-ritum "four-
        wheeled chariot". We could use *fidur-raþ N.-a (gen. –raþis)
        for "car" in Neo-Gothic. Then *twi-raþ is a bike ;-)

        Go. kintus is attested for "small coin", "penny" (Gr. KODRANTHS). If
        we derive a verb we get *kinton wv. 2. Could be specialized for "to
        coin", I guess.

        > (I wanted to avoid trying the ones with lines like "with one big
        > industrial union" for the time being).
        >
        > To make the meter more-or-less hang together (the syllable count
        > should work but the rhythm won't), I subbed "in friþau" for "secure
        > and free" - and subbed "freihala" for "peace" two lines later. Also
        > dropped "that is to be."

        -s in freihals is not the ending but a part of the stem. Hence dat.
        sg. freihalsa.

        > Mike

        Ualarauans
      • Fredrik
        A while ago me and llama translated the International to gothic. But we only came to the first vers plus chorus. I began with second vers this summer but aint
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 12, 2007
          A while ago me and llama translated the International to gothic. But
          we only came to the first vers plus chorus. I began with second vers
          this summer but aint finnished yet. It would be nice if you would
          like to complete it or give some ideas to it.

          /Fredrik

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
          >
          > I mentioned before my efforts to translate labor-movement songs
          into
          > Gothic - however anachronistic they may be. I paraphrase-
          translated
          > the first verse and chorus of Ralph Chaplin's "Commonwealth of
          Toil"
          > tonight. I'm not very good at this but practice makes ... better.
          >
          > Commonwealth of Toil
          >
          > by Ralph Chaplin
          >
          > In the gloom of mighty cities
          > mid the roar of whirling wheels
          > we are toiling on like chattel slaves of old.
          > And our masters ever seek
          > to keep us thus beneath their feet
          > and to coin our very life-blood into gold.
          >
          > In sa skadus baurgim mikilaim
          > miþ *hjulam *ƕirandam
          > arbaidjam samana skalkos aiwe sineiga.
          > Jah unsar reikos lustand
          > du haban uns atbrukjanda
          > jah du *maunetan unsar bloþ du gulda.
          >
          > Chorus:
          > But we have a glowing dream
          > of how fair the world will seem
          > when we each can live our lives secure and free -
          > when the earth is owned by labor
          > and there's joy and peace for all
          > in the commonwealth of toil that is to be.
          >
          > Þan habam *glaujand draum af
          > ƕaiwa haila airþai wairþiþ
          > ƕan ains jah alls skulum libam in friþau -
          > ƕan gawaurstwans aigun airþa
          > miþ leikainai jah freihala
          > in þizos gamainons botos gawaurtswane.
          >
          > (remaining verses not yet translated)
          >
          > Okay, the first verse is much more literal than the chorus. I
          > couldn't find any suitable common-Germanic root for either roar or
          > whirl - the former is only attested in West-Germanic and the
          latter
          > is first attested in North-Germanic - but decided that they were
          > better than nothing (I ultimately chose WG "howl" over WG "roar").
          > The other biggies were "coin," "glow," and, of
          course, "commonwealth."
          >
          > (I wanted to avoid trying the ones with lines like "with one big
          > industrial union" for the time being).
          >
          > To make the meter more-or-less hang together (the syllable count
          > should work but the rhythm won't), I subbed "in friþau"
          for "secure
          > and free" - and subbed "freihala" for "peace" two lines later.
          Also
          > dropped "that is to be."
          >
          > Mike
          >
        • Michael Erwin
          ... Nice. Different versions of course, often have different meanings. I did those same verses but didn t know what to do with the second. Here was my
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 12, 2007
            On Sep 12, 2007, at 4:42 PM, Fredrik wrote:
            > A while ago me and llama translated the International to gothic. But
            > we only came to the first vers plus chorus. I began with second vers
            > this summer but aint finnished yet. It would be nice if you would
            > like to complete it or give some ideas to it.
            >
            > /Fredrik
            Nice. Different versions of course, often have different meanings. I
            did those same verses but didn't know what to do with the second.
            Here was my rendering, largely derived from the Kerr translation
            rather than the original:

            Urreissam alaþarbans airþos!
            Urreissam bandjans huhros!
            Allis raihtei gadomiþ reikja, [1]
            Aiws batiza bairada,
            Ni þanaseiþs uns insailjanda
            in skalkinassau du faihau!
            Skalam anaskapjam midjungard
            Wairþum ni, wairþam manaseþs!

            Brakja aftumisto:
            Lisan sik jah suns,
            Waurkarjos, alakjo, [2]
            Wairþam mannaskodus.

            [1] depending who's using the song.
            [2] dodging the problem of translating "International Workers/
            Workingmen's Association" and guessing the short form.

            A more literal version might read:

            Urreissiþ bandjans huhraus [3]
            Urreissiþ alaþarbans airþos
            Allis raihtei hropjiþ / gadomiþ
            Airþa batiza bairada
            Ni wileima bandjos anafilhis insailjaima uns
            Urreissiþ þiwos! ni þanaseiþs in skalkinassau
            Airþa reisiþ ana njuaim grundu-waddjuns
            Wairþum ni ainshun, skalam wairþan ainƕarjizuh

            [3] I must have misspelled this in one version, I'm not sure which.
          • llama_nom
            ... I noticed a while ago that the reconstruction of wheel as Proto Germanic *xwexula- (and *xwe(g)ula-) in the 2nd ed. of the Oxford English Dictionary
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 13, 2007
              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
              >
              > For "wheel" I'd suggest Gothic *hvaéhvul or *hviwul (both N.-a)
              > formed after PG reduplications *hwehwula- and *hwegwula-
              > respectively. One can't be sure which variant – voiceless or voiced –
              > was more likely to appear in Gothic (or did they co-exist like OE
              > hwéol and hweogul?). "Mid the [roar of] whirling wheels" = in
              > midjaim windandam hvaihvulam?

              I noticed a while ago that the reconstruction of "wheel" as Proto
              Germanic *xwexula- (and *xwe(g)ula-) in the 2nd ed. of the Oxford
              English Dictionary doesn't quite work. The double "h" in Old English
              variants (hweohhol) must be due to earlier /hw/ (cf. Francis A. Wood
              (1920) "Germanic 'w' gemination II", Modern Philology 18:6, pp.
              303-308), or else to a directly following /l/, later syllabicised in
              Old English (Campbell (1959) 'Old English Grammar', OUP, Oxford, §
              408). I've also made a note that if /xw/ had come before /u/ in Proto
              Germanic in this word, it would have become /x/, but I can't find a
              reference for that or examples. (Presumably, if so, then Gothic
              'saihwum' would be due to analogical levelling.) Hmm, where did I get
              that from? Any ideas?

              If it's right, then neither of the OED's explanations for the double
              "h" in Old English could apply. By which reasoning, maybe Gothic
              *hwaihwl for the voiceless variant? But if I'm mistaken about /xw/ >
              /h/ before /u/, then your suggestion still works.

              As for the voiced variant, /gw/ became /g/ before /u/ in Proto
              Germanic, e.g. *magwuz (cf. Ogham Irish maqos) > Go. magus (but /gw/ >
              /w/ in other positions, e.g. *magwjo: > Go. mawi; *segwniz > Go. siuns
              (Wright (1917) 'Grammar of the Gothic Language, OUP, Oxford, § 137).
              So could we be looking at Gothic *hwaihwl (=OE hweohhol < PG
              *xwexwla-) and/or *hwiul (=OE hwéol, hweowul, hweogul < PG *xwegwla-);
              or else Gothic *hwigul and *hwaih(w)ul?

              LN
            • llama_nom
              ... Old Norse has an expression hverfanda hvél whirling wheel . In Alvíssmál it s said to be the name by which people in hell call the moon (which
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 13, 2007
                > whirling wheels

                Old Norse has an expression 'hverfanda hvél' "whirling wheel". In
                Alvíssmál it's said to be the name by which people in hell call the
                moon (which whirls or turns around the sky). In Hávamál and
                elsewhere, the expression is a proverbial metaphor for
                untrustworthiness: 'Á hverfanda hvéli váru þeim hjörtu sköpuð' "their
                hearts were shaped on a whirling wheel." Admittedly in Gothic
                'hvairban' is used with the meaning "to walk", but there is also in
                Gothic the adjective 'hveilahvairbs' "transient, temporary, not
                lasting", which seems reminiscent of the Old Norse use. So maybe we
                could justify using the verb in this context as a poetic fixed expression.

                Llama Nom
              • llama_nom
                Hi Mike, Good work there on your translation! By way of answer, I ve just had a go at the first verse and chorus of Commonwealth of Toil with some rhyme, of
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 13, 2007
                  Hi Mike,

                  Good work there on your translation! By way of answer, I've just had
                  a go at the first verse and chorus of "Commonwealth of Toil" with some
                  rhyme, of sorts... I started from scratch, but I particularly liked
                  your idea of using the word 'bota' to form Commonwealth, so I
                  *borrowed* that, except that I made it a compound 'gamainbota', to cut
                  down on syllables for the sake of the meter. Grammar tip: 'gamains'
                  is an i-stem adjective, so it inserts a -j- before oblique case
                  endings, e.g. 'gamainjos botos' "of common profit". Also, go
                  sparingly with the definite article in Gothic. 'sa' is used much less
                  than Modern English 'the', more like English 'that' or 'this'.

                  Re. the comments in my previous post, I'm not sure where I got that
                  idea from about Proto-Germanic /xw/ > /h/ before /u/. Gothic has
                  'sehvum' and 'fairhvus', anyway. Fick-Falk-Torp has PGmc. *hvehvula-,
                  dat. hvehv(u)lé; so that might be the source of the Old English
                  gemination /h/ > /hh/. Not sure... Anyway, for now, I've gone with
                  Ualarauans' suggested voiceless form 'hvaihvul'. Here's what I came
                  up with. A literal back-translation into English follows, so you can
                  see how far I twisted it.

                  > Commonwealth of Toil
                  >
                  > by Ralph Chaplin
                  >
                  > In the gloom of mighty cities
                  > mid the roar of whirling wheels
                  > we are toiling on like chattel slaves of old.
                  > And our masters ever seek
                  > to keep us thus beneath their feet
                  > and to coin our very life-blood into gold.

                  In baurgim mikilaim mairqjaim,
                  in midjaim hvaihvulam hvairbaim,
                  weis þulam swe þiujos faur jera þreihsl inu dulþ.
                  Jah fraujos sinteino sokjand
                  uns sagqjan uf seinans fotuns
                  jah us unsaramma bloþa taujan gulþ.

                  In great murky cities, amid ?whirling wheels, we suffer, like
                  slaves/servants years ago, tribulation without a holiday. And [our]
                  masters forever seek to make us sink beneath their feet, and from our
                  blood to make gold.

                  > Chorus:
                  > But we have a glowing dream
                  > of how fair the world will seem
                  > when we each can live our lives secure and free -
                  > when the earth is owned by labor
                  > and there's joy and peace for all
                  > in the commonwealth of toil that is to be.

                  Iþ uns draumeiþ skeinands draums,
                  hvaiwa wairþiþ sa fairhvus skauns,
                  þan liban mag unsara hvarjizuh arns jah freis,
                  þanei waurstwjans airþa aihand,
                  jah gawairþi jah faheþs uns þlaihand
                  in gamainbotai arbaidais samana allai weis.

                  But we dream a shining dream, how fair this world will be when each of
                  us can live secure and free, when all we workers own the earth, and
                  peace and joy will comfort us, together in the commonwealth of toil.
                  ___________________________________________________________________

                  A bit ragged, I'm afraid... There must be a way to improve on my
                  attempt at the first verse. If we think of a way to fit in the
                  wheels' roar, we could maybe use 'drunjus' or 'hrops'. Instead of 'in
                  midjaim' you could have 'in midumai', 'ana midumai', or swap it for a
                  simple preposition to reduce syllables: '?uf/?faura/?miþ hvairbandane
                  hvaihvule drunjau'.

                  Llama Nom




                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I mentioned before my efforts to translate labor-movement songs into
                  > Gothic - however anachronistic they may be. I paraphrase-translated
                  > the first verse and chorus of Ralph Chaplin's "Commonwealth of Toil"
                  > tonight. I'm not very good at this but practice makes ... better.
                  >
                  > Commonwealth of Toil
                  >
                  > by Ralph Chaplin
                  >
                  > In the gloom of mighty cities
                  > mid the roar of whirling wheels
                  > we are toiling on like chattel slaves of old.
                  > And our masters ever seek
                  > to keep us thus beneath their feet
                  > and to coin our very life-blood into gold.
                  >
                  > In sa skadus baurgim mikilaim
                  > miþ *hjulam *ƕirandam
                  > arbaidjam samana skalkos aiwe sineiga.
                  > Jah unsar reikos lustand
                  > du haban uns atbrukjanda
                  > jah du *maunetan unsar bloþ du gulda.
                  >
                  > Chorus:
                  > But we have a glowing dream
                  > of how fair the world will seem
                  > when we each can live our lives secure and free -
                  > when the earth is owned by labor
                  > and there's joy and peace for all
                  > in the commonwealth of toil that is to be.
                  >
                  > Þan habam *glaujand draum af
                  > ƕaiwa haila airþai wairþiþ
                  > ƕan ains jah alls skulum libam in friþau -
                  > ƕan gawaurstwans aigun airþa
                  > miþ leikainai jah freihala
                  > in þizos gamainons botos gawaurtswane.
                  >
                  > (remaining verses not yet translated)
                  >
                  > Okay, the first verse is much more literal than the chorus. I
                  > couldn't find any suitable common-Germanic root for either roar or
                  > whirl - the former is only attested in West-Germanic and the latter
                  > is first attested in North-Germanic - but decided that they were
                  > better than nothing (I ultimately chose WG "howl" over WG "roar").
                  > The other biggies were "coin," "glow," and, of course, "commonwealth."
                  >
                  > (I wanted to avoid trying the ones with lines like "with one big
                  > industrial union" for the time being).
                  >
                  > To make the meter more-or-less hang together (the syllable count
                  > should work but the rhythm won't), I subbed "in friþau" for "secure
                  > and free" - and subbed "freihala" for "peace" two lines later. Also
                  > dropped "that is to be."
                  >
                  > Mike
                  >
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