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Re: Attila's speech

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  • ualarauans
    Adnotata (some remarks on the translation and requests for your aid) ineptus inept = *untils (Lat. aptus = Go. gatils). Cf. also OCSl. loan o.tilu no longer
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 23, 2007
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      Adnotata (some remarks on the translation and requests for your aid)

      ineptus "inept" = *untils (Lat. aptus = Go. gatils). Cf. also OCSl.
      loan o.tilu "no longer usable" and Go. compound untila-malsks.

      ignaros rei = unweisans waihtais. Other options are unwitans
      waihtais, unwitandans waiht. But the latter seems to mean
      rather "totally ignorant".

      uerbis acuere "to incite with words" = waurdam inwagjan. To
      translate acuere one could construct *neþljan (Lat. acus "needle" =
      Go. neþla).

      inexpertus "unexperienced" = unfraisans, lit. "untempted", here in
      the sense "not tested in combat". One could use ungakausiþs too, I
      think.

      oportet "ought to" = skuld ist. I wonder is it possible to say
      gaqimiþ, after Col. 3:18?

      bellare "to wage war" = militon. A tribute to the badly remembered
      [;-)] military pidgin (< Lat. militare), actually attested in the
      Bible. One could use Germanic weihan instead.

      uiro forti "for a strong man" = gumin swinþamma. Lat. fortis here
      perhaps rather "brave" than "strong" (it could mean both), so maybe
      gumin balþamma?

      animus "spirit" (NOT anima "soul") hic et passim = ahma. I've long
      wavered between ahma and saiwala. Any arguments in favor of either?

      satiare "to satiate" = sadans briggan (cf. satiari "to sate oneself"
      = saþs wairþan). Another possibility is gasoþjan (used below). The
      case is either dative or genitive. I'm in doubt.

      hostis "enemy" = andastaþjis. I was long thinking how to
      translate "opponent in war". Fijands seems too personal. Perhaps we
      should invent a word for it, smth like *andaweiha M.-an, but I'm not
      sure about the stem vowel and the next consonant, maybe *andawiga?

      qui inferunt bellum. This is a complicated moment and I'd like to
      elaborate a little. You know that Lat. bellum inferre means "to
      unleash an aggressive war", "to start hostilities", "to invade the
      enemy's territory". A literal rendering of this turn of speech in
      Gothic (smth like þaiei innatbairand wigan) wouldn't say much to a
      native speaker, I guess. I tried to find a Germanic semantic
      equivalent and I came to nothing better than þaiei farand du
      *harjon, lit. "those who go on a raid" (ON fara at herja). Other
      variants are þaiei bairand *harjaskildu "those who carry the shield
      of war" (ON bera herskjöld, is it fitting here?), þaiei slahand
      fruman slah "those who strike the first blow" (figura etymologica,
      ON höggva it fyrsta högg, iirc). Your opinions?

      adunatas "joint" = gaqumanaim, lit. "having come together".
      Galisanaim also possible?

      defendi "to defend oneself" = driugan, just "to fight". No attested
      Gothic word for "to defend" afaik. Or there is one?

      impetus "assault", "attack" etc = *ufarruns. Any better ideas?

      excelsa "heights" = hlaina N.-a pl. "hills". In fact, only gen. pl.
      hlaine is attested, it can well be M.-a/-i or F.-i too.

      tumulus "barrow" = *haugs, reconstructed after ON haugr. Other
      suggestions?

      nota uobis sunt "you know" = kunþa izwis sind (word for word after
      Latin). One could go just with singular: kunþ izwis ist, right?

      testudo "screen formed by body of troops in close array with
      overlapping shields" (Oxford Dict.) – a term of Roman military art.
      To translate it was an interesting task. My suggestions are:
      *skildugards "shield house" *skilduskairms M.-i "shield of shields"
      (both elements alliterate, also *skaljaskairms, as Go. skalja "tile"
      = Lat. testa), *skilduhrot "shield roof" and, last but not least,
      *skildubaurgs "shield fortress", after OHG sciltburc glossing Lat.
      testudo.

      incumbite = atdriusiþ. I thought of constructing *inkumbjan for
      incumbere (cf. attested anakumbjan "to lie down to a meal" < Lat.
      accumbere).

      inde ... unde "thence ... whence" = þaruh ... þarei "there ...
      where". I think literal þaþroh ... þaþroei would sound pretty
      clumsy. What do you think?

      solitus "habitual" = swikunþs "well-known".

      inlaesus "unhurt" = hails "healthy", "safe". Other variants are
      *ungamaiþs (gamaiþs "mutilated", "deformed", cf. ON
      meiðr "cripple"), unskaþans, *unsair as an adjective (cf. ON sárr
      and Finnish loan sairas "ill"). Your ideas?

      uicturos "those going to win", "the would-be victors" = *sigiz-
      wairþjans (cf. attested swulta-wairþja "one going to die"). Another
      good possibility is *sigisselins (acc. pl. masc.), constructed after
      ON sigrsæll "victorious".

      telum "missile" hic et infra = arhvazna "arrow". Afaik Lat. telum
      may refer to any type of weapon, but predominantly one which is
      thrown or shot, it could well be Go. *spiut N.-a (ON spjót, OHG
      spioz) "javelin".

      fata "fate (goddesses)", "weird sisters" = *waiwaurds "ill fate",
      cf. OHG (Hildebrandslied) wewurt "idem"; also ON urðr, OE wyrd, OHG
      wurt etc. I'm tempted to use smth like *naurneis in pl. = Lat. fata,
      but am not sure.

      fortuna = *Wodans. This is of course an interpretatio Gothica (god
      of battle deciding who wins and who loses). Translating fortuna is
      indeed a challenge, can someone remember a Norse goddess of good
      luck?

      uictores = fraujans ("masters", couldn't find a word for "victor").

      adseret (conject. adseruit?) "proclaimed" = andhaihait (an example
      with accusatiuus duplex is in John 9:22).

      Meotidarum iter "the way to the Maeotides" = *Aujo wig (acc. sg.). I
      think it's rather useless to try to reconstruct a Gothic name for
      the Maeotides (today's Azov Sea), definitely it was not the Greek
      word, so I used Go. *Aujos pl., because Azov lied right on the Huns'
      way into the Gothic Oium paradise.

      armatos "armed ones" = þans *gawepnodans (cf. ON vápnaðr). Another
      option (sounding more poetical) is þans in *alawepnja (ON í alvæpni).

      faciem "face" = andawleizn. One could use any of the synonyms
      (andwairþi, siuns, wlits etc), every with its own fine shades of
      meaning (for example, andwairþi hints more to "presence" of the
      Huns, siuns to their "sight" etc).

      adunata collectio = galisanai alamans pl. in the sense "all kinds of
      people that gathered together".

      euentu "result", "outcome" = bi þata habando gadaban "about [things]
      that are going to happen" (see similar phrasing in Mc. 10:32). Or
      maybe, bi *usgagg (as a calque of Lat. e-uentum)?

      tela coiciam = *spiuta gawairpa. If telum here = arhvazna (see
      above), then probably arhvaznos *skiuta "I'll shoot arrows", not
      gawairpa "I'll throw"? Can one "throw arrows"? In Latin, sagittam in
      hostem coicere (conjicere) is OK, but what about Gothic?

      otio ferre "to be at leisure" = gahveilain <sis> haban (attested).
      Another possibility is unwaurstwa wisan.

      All comments are of course welcome

      Ualarauans
    • ualarauans
      Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out here ;-). Having revised the text over and over again I ve arrived at the following version.
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 1, 2007
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        Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out
        here ;-).

        Having revised the text over and over again I've arrived at the
        following version. All major emendations are listed below. The words
        in <...> have no matches in the Latin original but seem to be rather
        indispensable in Gothic. Your recommendations are, as before,
        welcome.

        (Getica 202-206 Gothice uersa)

        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

        [Attila qaþ:]

        Afar sigiza swalaudaizo þiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiþ,
        gatamidana, until domidedjau <izwis> swaswe unweisans waihtais
        waurdam inwagjan. Sokjai þata andizuh niujis drauhtins aiþþau
        unfraisans harjis. Nih mis binauht ist hva gamainjata rodjan, nih
        izwis skuld ist hausjan. Hva raihtis anþar jus nibai militon biuhtai
        <sijuþ>? Aiþþau hva gumin swinþamma woþizo þau fraweit handau
        sokjan? Mikila giba <ist> at wistai ahmans fragildis sadans briggan.
        Anaqimaima nu andastaþi mundrai: balþizans sind sinteino þaiei
        farand du harjon. Gaqumanaim frakunneiþ missaleikaim þiudom: bandwo
        faurhteins ist gamainduþai driugan. Sai faura ufarruna unsaramma
        agisa ju dishabanda, hlaina sokjand, haugans nimand jah <in> seiþjai
        idreigai in haiþjom tulgiþos usbidand. Kunþ izwis ist hvan sijaina
        leihta Rumone sarwa: frumein jan-ni qiþa wundufnjai, ak silbin
        stubjau kaurjanda, miþþanei in tewai gagaggand jah hansos <in>
        skildubaurg gawidand. Jus haifstjaiþ gastoþaim ahmam swe biuhtai,
        fra-h-kunnandans harja ize Allanans dissitiþ, in Wisugutans
        atdriusiþ. Þaruh uns adrata sigis sokjan <skuld ist>, þarei sik
        habaiþ waihjo. Afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom suns liþjus afsliupand,
        nih mag standan leik þammei baina usnimis. Urreisaina ahmans, moþs
        swikunþs ufarwahsjai. Nu mitonins, Huneis, nu wepna uslukiþ: jabai
        gawundoþs hvas – andastaþjis dauþu gatilo, aiþþau hails – fijande
        slauhtais gasoþjaidau. Þans sigizwairþjans ni ainohun arhvazno
        undrinniþ, þans dauþubljans jah in rimisa waiwaurds gadrauseiþ. Bi
        spedistin duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa managaim þiudom hroþeigans
        ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais swegniþai gamanwidedi? Þaþroþ-
        þan hvas Aujo wig þaim airizam unsaraim gabairhtida þana swa laggos
        aldins galukanan fulginana? Hvas nauh þaim wepnalausam gakunnan
        gatawida þans gawepnodans? Andawleizn Hune ni mahtedun bairan
        galisanai alamans. Ik ni afairzjada bi þata habando gadaban: her
        akrs ist þanei unsis swa managos ansteis gahaihaitun. Fruma in
        andastaþi spiuta gawairpa. Jabai hvas magi <at> Attilin weihandin
        gahveilain <sis> haban, gafulhans ist.

        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

        tantarum = swalaudaizo "so great" instead of swa managaizo "so
        many". The Latin word can mean both, but since only Lat. tot is used
        for "so many" throughout the fragment we may probably argue that
        here Jordanes (Attila) emphasized the "greatness" (numerical value
        of each), not just plain number, of the nations that had been
        conquered by the Huns up to the day of the Catalaunic battle.

        autem "indeed" = raihtis (was: sweþauh). Not that I can sufficiently
        support this choice with arguments. I just feel this sounds better.

        ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when
        (re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun",
        Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I
        didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for translating
        Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking
        such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military lexicon
        so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better is
        in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins
        (ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and
        other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in the
        Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".

        nota uobis sunt "you know", lit. [these things (neuter plural)] are
        familiar to you" = kunþ izwis ist (singular) replacing kunþa izwis
        sind (plural). I asked the question whether this plural was good
        Latin or an error on a mailing list dedicated to Latin studies
        (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/) and I was told that
        it is certainly wrong here and that most likely Jordanes was
        thinking about the word Lat. arma "arms" (equally neuter plural)
        following in the subordinate clause. Well, for Lat. arma my Gothic
        has sarwa, neuer plural as well, and one could be inclined to keep
        this (erroneous) peculiarity (plural kunþa izwis sind) as a trait of
        Jordanes' authorship. Still, good Gothic would demand singular, like
        Latin. (see e.g. Eph. 3:5).

        et acies testudineque conectunt = jah hansos <in> skildubaurg
        gawidand. Undoubtedly the most obscure place in the whole fragment.
        Mierow has it as "and forming in one line with locked shields".
        Apart from asking whether Go. hansa (actually "band of
        warriors", "cohort") is good enough to render Lat. acies the form
        testudineque seems to be quite out of sense here. My Gothic is
        literally "and [they] join their cohorts together in a "fortress of
        shields". Using -baurgs also helps me avoid addressing the question
        what case – dative or accusative – must be put in here ;-)

        se continet "finds itself" = sik habaiþ (instead of sik gahabaiþ).
        The latter seems to have a different attested meaning ("to obstain").

        abscisa autem neruis mox membra relabuntur (Mierow's) "when the
        sinews are cut the limbs soon relax" = afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom
        suns liþjus afsliupand. In the draft version I translated this
        thinking that abscisa autem neruis must be absolute dative that
        needs correction => abscisis autem neruis. Jordanes often makes
        mistakes in his Latin, after all. But then I was told by experts
        that abscisa in fact refers to membra, so it's the "limbs" which
        are "cut off the sinews", literally. Hence the new Gothic reading.

        postremo "finally" = bi spedistin (was: bi aftumin). The first is
        factually attested in Mc. 16:14.

        cur fortuna Hunnos tot gentium uictores adseret, nisi ad certaminis
        huius gaudia praeparasset? (Mierow's) "why should Fortune have made
        the Huns victorious over so many nations, unless it were to prepare
        them for the joy of this conflict?" = duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa
        managaim þiudom hroþeigans ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais
        swegniþai gamanwidedi? As you see I chose a descriptional way of
        saying this, namely "why should Wodan have caused the Huns to
        triumph over so many nations..." (see the same turn of speech in 2
        Cor. 2:14), instead of trying to literally imitate Latin. Some may
        wonder why it's Wodan who helps the Huns and even (in the next
        sentence) opens them the way into Oium, but this as I said
        is "interpretatio Gothica", much like Roman authors (Julius Caesar,
        Tacitus) who described the ancient Germani worshipping Mercurius,
        Iuppiter, Mars etc implying they were honored under their Germanic
        names, i.e. *Wodanaz, *Þunraz, *Teiwaz respectively ("interpretatio
        Romana"). Whenever a Goth was in need of referring to a Hunnish god
        of battle and war fortune, Wodan was the most likely candidate to be
        mentioned, if the person wanted to avoid long explanations and
        awkwardly sounding foreign names. There was such a thing as "pagan
        religious isomorphism", after all (hope I got the right word). And,
        of course, I am not going to raise again the debate whether the
        historical Goths knew the name of Wodan or not. If someone knows a
        better (and more verifiable) option, let it be said here.

        ad certaminis huius gaudia "for the joys of this battle" = du þizos
        haifstais swegniþai (was: fahedai). Swegniþa (Gr. AGALLIASIS) as
        well as the corresponding verb swegnjan (AGALLIASQAI, BRABEUEIN)
        seem to pertain more to "triumph" than faheþs, faginon which refer
        to "joy" in general.

        Well, that's all for now. If there are no objections on the part of
        other listmembers, could we have this text put into the files
        section of Gothic-L?

        Ualarauans
      • Frederick Louis Scoggins
        ... Dear Ualarauans, After this short message I shall unsubscribe from the Gothic newsletter. First you are obviously deceived into thinking that the entire
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
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          ualarauans wrote:
          >
          > Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out
          > here ;-).
          >
          > Having revised the text over and over again I've arrived at the
          > following version. All major emendations are listed below. The words
          > in <...> have no matches in the Latin original but seem to be rather
          > indispensable in Gothic. Your recommendations are, as before,
          > welcome.
          >
          > (Getica 202-206 Gothice uersa)
          >
          > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          >
          > [Attila qaþ:]
          >
          > Afar sigiza swalaudaizo þiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiþ,
          > gatamidana, until domidedjau <izwis> swaswe unweisans waihtais
          > waurdam inwagjan. Sokjai þata andizuh niujis drauhtins aiþþau
          > unfraisans harjis. Nih mis binauht ist hva gamainjata rodjan, nih
          > izwis skuld ist hausjan. Hva raihtis anþar jus nibai militon biuhtai
          > <sijuþ>? Aiþþau hva gumin swinþamma woþizo þau fraweit handau
          > sokjan? Mikila giba <ist> at wistai ahmans fragildis sadans briggan.
          > Anaqimaima nu andastaþi mundrai: balþizans sind sinteino þaiei
          > farand du harjon. Gaqumanaim frakunneiþ missaleikaim þiudom: bandwo
          > faurhteins ist gamainduþai driugan. Sai faura ufarruna unsaramma
          > agisa ju dishabanda, hlaina sokjand, haugans nimand jah <in> seiþjai
          > idreigai in haiþjom tulgiþos usbidand. Kunþ izwis ist hvan sijaina
          > leihta Rumone sarwa: frumein jan-ni qiþa wundufnjai, ak silbin
          > stubjau kaurjanda, miþþanei in tewai gagaggand jah hansos <in>
          > skildubaurg gawidand. Jus haifstjaiþ gastoþaim ahmam swe biuhtai,
          > fra-h-kunnandans harja ize Allanans dissitiþ, in Wisugutans
          > atdriusiþ. Þaruh uns adrata sigis sokjan <skuld ist>, þarei sik
          > habaiþ waihjo. Afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom suns liþjus afsliupand,
          > nih mag standan leik þammei baina usnimis. Urreisaina ahmans, moþs
          > swikunþs ufarwahsjai. Nu mitonins, Huneis, nu wepna uslukiþ: jabai
          > gawundoþs hvas – andastaþjis dauþu gatilo, aiþþau hails – fijande
          > slauhtais gasoþjaidau. Þans sigizwairþjans ni ainohun arhvazno
          > undrinniþ, þans dauþubljans jah in rimisa waiwaurds gadrauseiþ. Bi
          > spedistin duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa managaim þiudom hroþeigans
          > ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais swegniþai gamanwidedi? Þaþroþ-
          > þan hvas Aujo wig þaim airizam unsaraim gabairhtida þana swa laggos
          > aldins galukanan fulginana? Hvas nauh þaim wepnalausam gakunnan
          > gatawida þans gawepnodans? Andawleizn Hune ni mahtedun bairan
          > galisanai alamans. Ik ni afairzjada bi þata habando gadaban: her
          > akrs ist þanei unsis swa managos ansteis gahaihaitun. Fruma in
          > andastaþi spiuta gawairpa. Jabai hvas magi <at> Attilin weihandin
          > gahveilain <sis> haban, gafulhans ist.
          >
          > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          >
          > tantarum = swalaudaizo "so great" instead of swa managaizo "so
          > many". The Latin word can mean both, but since only Lat. tot is used
          > for "so many" throughout the fragment we may probably argue that
          > here Jordanes (Attila) emphasized the "greatness" (numerical value
          > of each), not just plain number, of the nations that had been
          > conquered by the Huns up to the day of the Catalaunic battle.
          >
          > autem "indeed" = raihtis (was: sweþauh). Not that I can sufficiently
          > support this choice with arguments. I just feel this sounds better.
          >
          > ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when
          > (re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun",
          > Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I
          > didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for translating
          > Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking
          > such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military lexicon
          > so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better is
          > in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins
          > (ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and
          > other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in the
          > Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".
          >
          > nota uobis sunt "you know", lit. [these things (neuter plural)] are
          > familiar to you" = kunþ izwis ist (singular) replacing kunþa izwis
          > sind (plural). I asked the question whether this plural was good
          > Latin or an error on a mailing list dedicated to Latin studies
          > (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/
          > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/>) and I was told that
          > it is certainly wrong here and that most likely Jordanes was
          > thinking about the word Lat. arma "arms" (equally neuter plural)
          > following in the subordinate clause. Well, for Lat. arma my Gothic
          > has sarwa, neuer plural as well, and one could be inclined to keep
          > this (erroneous) peculiarity (plural kunþa izwis sind) as a trait of
          > Jordanes' authorship. Still, good Gothic would demand singular, like
          > Latin. (see e.g. Eph. 3:5).
          >
          > et acies testudineque conectunt = jah hansos <in> skildubaurg
          > gawidand. Undoubtedly the most obscure place in the whole fragment.
          > Mierow has it as "and forming in one line with locked shields".
          > Apart from asking whether Go. hansa (actually "band of
          > warriors", "cohort") is good enough to render Lat. acies the form
          > testudineque seems to be quite out of sense here. My Gothic is
          > literally "and [they] join their cohorts together in a "fortress of
          > shields". Using -baurgs also helps me avoid addressing the question
          > what case – dative or accusative – must be put in here ;-)
          >
          > se continet "finds itself" = sik habaiþ (instead of sik gahabaiþ).
          > The latter seems to have a different attested meaning ("to obstain").
          >
          > abscisa autem neruis mox membra relabuntur (Mierow's) "when the
          > sinews are cut the limbs soon relax" = afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom
          > suns liþjus afsliupand. In the draft version I translated this
          > thinking that abscisa autem neruis must be absolute dative that
          > needs correction => abscisis autem neruis. Jordanes often makes
          > mistakes in his Latin, after all. But then I was told by experts
          > that abscisa in fact refers to membra, so it's the "limbs" which
          > are "cut off the sinews", literally. Hence the new Gothic reading.
          >
          > postremo "finally" = bi spedistin (was: bi aftumin). The first is
          > factually attested in Mc. 16:14.
          >
          > cur fortuna Hunnos tot gentium uictores adseret, nisi ad certaminis
          > huius gaudia praeparasset? (Mierow's) "why should Fortune have made
          > the Huns victorious over so many nations, unless it were to prepare
          > them for the joy of this conflict?" = duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa
          > managaim þiudom hroþeigans ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais
          > swegniþai gamanwidedi? As you see I chose a descriptional way of
          > saying this, namely "why should Wodan have caused the Huns to
          > triumph over so many nations..." (see the same turn of speech in 2
          > Cor. 2:14), instead of trying to literally imitate Latin. Some may
          > wonder why it's Wodan who helps the Huns and even (in the next
          > sentence) opens them the way into Oium, but this as I said
          > is "interpretatio Gothica", much like Roman authors (Julius Caesar,
          > Tacitus) who described the ancient Germani worshipping Mercurius,
          > Iuppiter, Mars etc implying they were honored under their Germanic
          > names, i.e. *Wodanaz, *Þunraz, *Teiwaz respectively ("interpretatio
          > Romana"). Whenever a Goth was in need of referring to a Hunnish god
          > of battle and war fortune, Wodan was the most likely candidate to be
          > mentioned, if the person wanted to avoid long explanations and
          > awkwardly sounding foreign names. There was such a thing as "pagan
          > religious isomorphism", after all (hope I got the right word). And,
          > of course, I am not going to raise again the debate whether the
          > historical Goths knew the name of Wodan or not. If someone knows a
          > better (and more verifiable) option, let it be said here.
          >
          > ad certaminis huius gaudia "for the joys of this battle" = du þizos
          > haifstais swegniþai (was: fahedai). Swegniþa (Gr. AGALLIASIS) as
          > well as the corresponding verb swegnjan (AGALLIASQAI, BRABEUEIN)
          > seem to pertain more to "triumph" than faheþs, faginon which refer
          > to "joy" in general.
          >
          > Well, that's all for now. If there are no objections on the part of
          > other listmembers, could we have this text put into the files
          > section of Gothic-L?
          >
          > Ualarauans
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM
          >
          Dear Ualarauans,

          After this short message I shall unsubscribe from the Gothic newsletter.
          First you are obviously deceived into thinking that the entire writtings
          of Jordanes are accurate instead of the cut and paste propaganda of a
          third rate political and religious hack who tried to deceive readers
          into accepting it as the condensed work of a lost Roman historian.
          Jordanes may be a source but he ranks somewhat below Goering and has the
          same glorious interpretation of Germanic history as the Nazis had. If I
          were to discover that you had facist inclinations it would not surprise
          me in the least. In your favor of course is your language skills, they
          appear admirable! Please enjoy your past time by yourself...

          Goodbye,

          Frederick Louis Scoggins
        • Francisc Czobor
          Dear Frederick, it s your right to unsubscribe whenever you wish, but please don t judge Ualarauans that way. Some members of this Gothi-L (including me)
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Frederick,

            it's your right to unsubscribe whenever you wish, but please don't
            judge Ualarauans that way. Some members of this Gothi-L (including
            me) tried, several years ago, to translate in Gothic the beginning
            section of "Getica". We didn't regard this as history, but rather as
            a sort of literary work-up of Gothic mythology. "Getica" doesn't
            represent for us (or for me at least) a reliable source for Gothic
            history, but rather a piece of Gothic literature written in Latin.
            Therefore, it looks more appropriate to test our skills to translate
            into Gothic on a fragment of "Getica" than, let's say, on
            the "Aeneid".

            Francisc


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Frederick Louis Scoggins
            <scoggins3375@...> wrote:
            >
            > ualarauans wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out
            > > here ;-).
            > >
            > > Having revised the text over and over again I've arrived at the
            > > following version. All major emendations are listed below. The
            words
            > > in <...> have no matches in the Latin original but seem to be
            rather
            > > indispensable in Gothic. Your recommendations are, as before,
            > > welcome.
            > >
            > > (Getica 202-206 Gothice uersa)
            > >
            > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
            > >
            > > [Attila qaþ:]
            > >
            > > Afar sigiza swalaudaizo þiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiþ,
            > > gatamidana, until domidedjau <izwis> swaswe unweisans waihtais
            > > waurdam inwagjan. Sokjai þata andizuh niujis drauhtins aiþþau
            > > unfraisans harjis. Nih mis binauht ist hva gamainjata rodjan, nih
            > > izwis skuld ist hausjan. Hva raihtis anþar jus nibai militon
            biuhtai
            > > <sijuþ>? Aiþþau hva gumin swinþamma woþizo þau fraweit handau
            > > sokjan? Mikila giba <ist> at wistai ahmans fragildis sadans
            briggan.
            > > Anaqimaima nu andastaþi mundrai: balþizans sind sinteino þaiei
            > > farand du harjon. Gaqumanaim frakunneiþ missaleikaim þiudom:
            bandwo
            > > faurhteins ist gamainduþai driugan. Sai faura ufarruna unsaramma
            > > agisa ju dishabanda, hlaina sokjand, haugans nimand jah <in>
            seiþjai
            > > idreigai in haiþjom tulgiþos usbidand. Kunþ izwis ist hvan sijaina
            > > leihta Rumone sarwa: frumein jan-ni qiþa wundufnjai, ak silbin
            > > stubjau kaurjanda, miþþanei in tewai gagaggand jah hansos <in>
            > > skildubaurg gawidand. Jus haifstjaiþ gastoþaim ahmam swe biuhtai,
            > > fra-h-kunnandans harja ize Allanans dissitiþ, in Wisugutans
            > > atdriusiþ. Þaruh uns adrata sigis sokjan <skuld ist>, þarei sik
            > > habaiþ waihjo. Afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom suns liþjus afsliupand,
            > > nih mag standan leik þammei baina usnimis. Urreisaina ahmans, moþs
            > > swikunþs ufarwahsjai. Nu mitonins, Huneis, nu wepna uslukiþ: jabai
            > > gawundoþs hvas – andastaþjis dauþu gatilo, aiþþau hails – fijande
            > > slauhtais gasoþjaidau. Þans sigizwairþjans ni ainohun arhvazno
            > > undrinniþ, þans dauþubljans jah in rimisa waiwaurds gadrauseiþ. Bi
            > > spedistin duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa managaim þiudom hroþeigans
            > > ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais swegniþai gamanwidedi?
            Þaþroþ-
            > > þan hvas Aujo wig þaim airizam unsaraim gabairhtida þana swa
            laggos
            > > aldins galukanan fulginana? Hvas nauh þaim wepnalausam gakunnan
            > > gatawida þans gawepnodans? Andawleizn Hune ni mahtedun bairan
            > > galisanai alamans. Ik ni afairzjada bi þata habando gadaban: her
            > > akrs ist þanei unsis swa managos ansteis gahaihaitun. Fruma in
            > > andastaþi spiuta gawairpa. Jabai hvas magi <at> Attilin weihandin
            > > gahveilain <sis> haban, gafulhans ist.
            > >
            > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
            > >
            > > tantarum = swalaudaizo "so great" instead of swa managaizo "so
            > > many". The Latin word can mean both, but since only Lat. tot is
            used
            > > for "so many" throughout the fragment we may probably argue that
            > > here Jordanes (Attila) emphasized the "greatness" (numerical value
            > > of each), not just plain number, of the nations that had been
            > > conquered by the Huns up to the day of the Catalaunic battle.
            > >
            > > autem "indeed" = raihtis (was: sweþauh). Not that I can
            sufficiently
            > > support this choice with arguments. I just feel this sounds
            better.
            > >
            > > ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when
            > > (re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun",
            > > Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I
            > > didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for
            translating
            > > Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking
            > > such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military
            lexicon
            > > so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better
            is
            > > in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins
            > > (ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and
            > > other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in
            the
            > > Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".
            > >
            > > nota uobis sunt "you know", lit. [these things (neuter plural)]
            are
            > > familiar to you" = kunþ izwis ist (singular) replacing kunþa izwis
            > > sind (plural). I asked the question whether this plural was good
            > > Latin or an error on a mailing list dedicated to Latin studies
            > > (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/
            > > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/>) and I was told
            that
            > > it is certainly wrong here and that most likely Jordanes was
            > > thinking about the word Lat. arma "arms" (equally neuter plural)
            > > following in the subordinate clause. Well, for Lat. arma my Gothic
            > > has sarwa, neuer plural as well, and one could be inclined to keep
            > > this (erroneous) peculiarity (plural kunþa izwis sind) as a trait
            of
            > > Jordanes' authorship. Still, good Gothic would demand singular,
            like
            > > Latin. (see e.g. Eph. 3:5).
            > >
            > > et acies testudineque conectunt = jah hansos <in> skildubaurg
            > > gawidand. Undoubtedly the most obscure place in the whole
            fragment.
            > > Mierow has it as "and forming in one line with locked shields".
            > > Apart from asking whether Go. hansa (actually "band of
            > > warriors", "cohort") is good enough to render Lat. acies the form
            > > testudineque seems to be quite out of sense here. My Gothic is
            > > literally "and [they] join their cohorts together in a "fortress
            of
            > > shields". Using -baurgs also helps me avoid addressing the
            question
            > > what case – dative or accusative – must be put in here ;-)
            > >
            > > se continet "finds itself" = sik habaiþ (instead of sik gahabaiþ).
            > > The latter seems to have a different attested meaning ("to
            obstain").
            > >
            > > abscisa autem neruis mox membra relabuntur (Mierow's) "when the
            > > sinews are cut the limbs soon relax" = afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom
            > > suns liþjus afsliupand. In the draft version I translated this
            > > thinking that abscisa autem neruis must be absolute dative that
            > > needs correction => abscisis autem neruis. Jordanes often makes
            > > mistakes in his Latin, after all. But then I was told by experts
            > > that abscisa in fact refers to membra, so it's the "limbs" which
            > > are "cut off the sinews", literally. Hence the new Gothic reading.
            > >
            > > postremo "finally" = bi spedistin (was: bi aftumin). The first is
            > > factually attested in Mc. 16:14.
            > >
            > > cur fortuna Hunnos tot gentium uictores adseret, nisi ad
            certaminis
            > > huius gaudia praeparasset? (Mierow's) "why should Fortune have
            made
            > > the Huns victorious over so many nations, unless it were to
            prepare
            > > them for the joy of this conflict?" = duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa
            > > managaim þiudom hroþeigans ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais
            > > swegniþai gamanwidedi? As you see I chose a descriptional way of
            > > saying this, namely "why should Wodan have caused the Huns to
            > > triumph over so many nations..." (see the same turn of speech in 2
            > > Cor. 2:14), instead of trying to literally imitate Latin. Some may
            > > wonder why it's Wodan who helps the Huns and even (in the next
            > > sentence) opens them the way into Oium, but this as I said
            > > is "interpretatio Gothica", much like Roman authors (Julius
            Caesar,
            > > Tacitus) who described the ancient Germani worshipping Mercurius,
            > > Iuppiter, Mars etc implying they were honored under their Germanic
            > > names, i.e. *Wodanaz, *Þunraz, *Teiwaz respectively
            ("interpretatio
            > > Romana"). Whenever a Goth was in need of referring to a Hunnish
            god
            > > of battle and war fortune, Wodan was the most likely candidate to
            be
            > > mentioned, if the person wanted to avoid long explanations and
            > > awkwardly sounding foreign names. There was such a thing as "pagan
            > > religious isomorphism", after all (hope I got the right word).
            And,
            > > of course, I am not going to raise again the debate whether the
            > > historical Goths knew the name of Wodan or not. If someone knows a
            > > better (and more verifiable) option, let it be said here.
            > >
            > > ad certaminis huius gaudia "for the joys of this battle" = du
            þizos
            > > haifstais swegniþai (was: fahedai). Swegniþa (Gr. AGALLIASIS) as
            > > well as the corresponding verb swegnjan (AGALLIASQAI, BRABEUEIN)
            > > seem to pertain more to "triumph" than faheþs, faginon which refer
            > > to "joy" in general.
            > >
            > > Well, that's all for now. If there are no objections on the part
            of
            > > other listmembers, could we have this text put into the files
            > > section of Gothic-L?
            > >
            > > Ualarauans
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
            ------
            > >
            > > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date:
            9/2/2007 4:32 PM
            > >
            > Dear Ualarauans,
            >
            > After this short message I shall unsubscribe from the Gothic
            newsletter.
            > First you are obviously deceived into thinking that the entire
            writtings
            > of Jordanes are accurate instead of the cut and paste propaganda of
            a
            > third rate political and religious hack who tried to deceive
            readers
            > into accepting it as the condensed work of a lost Roman historian.
            > Jordanes may be a source but he ranks somewhat below Goering and
            has the
            > same glorious interpretation of Germanic history as the Nazis had.
            If I
            > were to discover that you had facist inclinations it would not
            surprise
            > me in the least. In your favor of course is your language skills,
            they
            > appear admirable! Please enjoy your past time by yourself...
            >
            > Goodbye,
            >
            > Frederick Louis Scoggins
            >
          • Michael Erwin
            ... I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I m not sure whether the latter two words are semantically
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              On Sep 2, 2007, at 12:14 AM, ualarauans wrote:
              > ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when
              > (re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun",
              > Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I
              > didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for translating
              > Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking
              > such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military lexicon
              > so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better is
              > in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins
              > (ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and
              > other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in the
              > Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".
              I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of
              andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I'm not sure whether the latter two
              words are semantically related or just look that way.

              Of course it's traditional to practice Gothic by translating the
              bible, but it's not that uncommon to try other sources. I've tried
              translating labor songs, and I'm wondering what sort of pseudo-
              historical theory could be read into that...
            • ualarauans
              ... two ... Andastaþjis opponent , enemy and andstandan to oppose , to stand against are certainly related, both etymologically and semantically. Look
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
                >
                > I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of
                > andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I'm not sure whether the latter
                two
                > words are semantically related or just look that way.

                Andastaþjis "opponent", "enemy" and andstandan "to oppose", "to
                stand against" are certainly related, both etymologically and
                semantically. Look at p.t. stoþ "[I, he, she, it] stood" dropping
                the nasal too.

                > Of course it's traditional to practice Gothic by translating the
                > bible, but it's not that uncommon to try other sources. I've tried
                > translating labor songs, and I'm wondering what sort of pseudo-
                > historical theory could be read into that...

                I suggest you just have to try and see what you'll get in comments ;-
                ). Seriously speaking, it would be great if people were more eager
                to share their Gothic compositions with the group. I'm sure many of
                us have some.

                Ualarauans
              • OSCAR HERRERA
                getica looks pretty much like gothic to me.......whats up with fredric? ... two ... Andastaþjis opponent , enemy and andstandan to oppose , to stand
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  getica looks pretty much like gothic to me.......whats up with fredric?

                  ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of
                  > andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I'm not sure whether the latter
                  two
                  > words are semantically related or just look that way.

                  Andastaþjis "opponent", "enemy" and andstandan "to oppose", "to
                  stand against" are certainly related, both etymologically and
                  semantically. Look at p.t. stoþ "[I, he, she, it] stood" dropping
                  the nasal too.

                  > Of course it's traditional to practice Gothic by translating the
                  > bible, but it's not that uncommon to try other sources. I've tried
                  > translating labor songs, and I'm wondering what sort of pseudo-
                  > historical theory could be read into that...

                  I suggest you just have to try and see what you'll get in comments ;-
                  ). Seriously speaking, it would be great if people were more eager
                  to share their Gothic compositions with the group. I'm sure many of
                  us have some.

                  Ualarauans






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ualarauans
                  ... fredric? Oscar, I must say that your way to express yourself is rather mysterious at times. Not long ago you told us that assimilation and extermination
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 4, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > getica looks pretty much like gothic to me.......whats up with
                    fredric?

                    Oscar, I must say that your way to express yourself is rather
                    mysterious at times. Not long ago you told us that "assimilation and
                    extermination are foolhardy words" reacting on my post where I spoke
                    of the final fates of the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths in Spain and
                    Italy respectively. I asked you then to explain why you think so,
                    but you didn't. OK, let it be. Now you're telling that "getica looks
                    pretty much like gothic to me". Should it be understood so that you
                    find Latin of Getica as incomprehensible as Gothic, or that you
                    think it is a genuine source for the Gothic history, or that in your
                    opinion it was originally written in Gothic or by Goths, or what
                    else? Secondly, whom do you referring to as Fredric (I suggest you
                    capitalize the initial letters of the listmemvers' personal names,
                    at the very least)? I may try to guess and think of either Fredrik
                    (gadrauhts) or Frederick L. Scoggins. In both cases I don't
                    know "what's up" with them. What do you mean, actually?

                    Ualarauans

                    > ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote: --- In
                    > gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of
                    > > andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I'm not sure whether the latter
                    > two
                    > > words are semantically related or just look that way.
                    >
                    > Andastaþjis "opponent", "enemy" and andstandan "to oppose", "to
                    > stand against" are certainly related, both etymologically and
                    > semantically. Look at p.t. stoþ "[I, he, she, it] stood" dropping
                    > the nasal too.
                    >
                    > > Of course it's traditional to practice Gothic by translating the
                    > > bible, but it's not that uncommon to try other sources. I've
                    tried
                    > > translating labor songs, and I'm wondering what sort of pseudo-
                    > > historical theory could be read into that...
                    >
                    > I suggest you just have to try and see what you'll get in
                    comments ;-
                    > ). Seriously speaking, it would be great if people were more eager
                    > to share their Gothic compositions with the group. I'm sure many of
                    > us have some.
                    >
                    > Ualarauans
                  • OSCAR HERRERA
                    your sayin what that getica is gothic or latin.....i said your translation looked like gothic....im not following you with this one.....and i was referring to
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 4, 2007
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                      your sayin what that getica is gothic or latin.....i said your translation looked like gothic....im not following you with this one.....and i was referring to fredric scoggins.....????

                      ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > getica looks pretty much like gothic to me.......whats up with
                      fredric?

                      Oscar, I must say that your way to express yourself is rather
                      mysterious at times. Not long ago you told us that "assimilation and
                      extermination are foolhardy words" reacting on my post where I spoke
                      of the final fates of the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths in Spain and
                      Italy respectively. I asked you then to explain why you think so,
                      but you didn't. OK, let it be. Now you're telling that "getica looks
                      pretty much like gothic to me". Should it be understood so that you
                      find Latin of Getica as incomprehensible as Gothic, or that you
                      think it is a genuine source for the Gothic history, or that in your
                      opinion it was originally written in Gothic or by Goths, or what
                      else? Secondly, whom do you referring to as Fredric (I suggest you
                      capitalize the initial letters of the listmemvers' personal names,
                      at the very least)? I may try to guess and think of either Fredrik
                      (gadrauhts) or Frederick L. Scoggins. In both cases I don't
                      know "what's up" with them. What do you mean, actually?

                      Ualarauans

                      > ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote: --- In
                      > gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of
                      > > andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I'm not sure whether the latter
                      > two
                      > > words are semantically related or just look that way.
                      >
                      > Andastaþjis "opponent", "enemy" and andstandan "to oppose", "to
                      > stand against" are certainly related, both etymologically and
                      > semantically. Look at p.t. stoþ "[I, he, she, it] stood" dropping
                      > the nasal too.
                      >
                      > > Of course it's traditional to practice Gothic by translating the
                      > > bible, but it's not that uncommon to try other sources. I've
                      tried
                      > > translating labor songs, and I'm wondering what sort of pseudo-
                      > > historical theory could be read into that...
                      >
                      > I suggest you just have to try and see what you'll get in
                      comments ;-
                      > ). Seriously speaking, it would be great if people were more eager
                      > to share their Gothic compositions with the group. I'm sure many of
                      > us have some.
                      >
                      > Ualarauans






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ualarauans
                      Corrigendum Getica 206: Meotidarum iter [...] tot saeculis clausum secretum. Charles C. Mierow s translation: [...] the path through the Maeotian swamp, for
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 5, 2007
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                        Corrigendum

                        Getica 206: Meotidarum iter [...] tot saeculis clausum secretum.

                        Charles C. Mierow's translation: "[...] the path through the Maeotian
                        swamp, for so many ages a closed secret".

                        Gothic version: "Aujo wig [...] þana swa laggos aldins galukanan
                        fulginana" (aping the Latin phrase).

                        I think it's better to use here the attested metaphor Go. in fulhsnja
                        (Gr. EN TW KRUPTW, EN TW KRUFAIW) "in secret" (Mt. 6:4, 18).

                        Thus the new reading is: "Aujo wig [...] þana swa laggos aldins
                        galukanan in fulhsnja".

                        Yours,

                        Ualarauans
                      • ualarauans
                        Translating Jordanes back into Gothic I stumbled over the word Lat. cerua she-deer , doe (Getica 123-4). It s the fragment where the legend is told of a
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 26, 2007
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                          Translating Jordanes "back into Gothic" I stumbled over the word
                          Lat. cerua "she-deer", "doe" (Getica 123-4). It's the fragment where
                          the legend is told of a doe leading Hunnish hunters the way over the
                          Maeotic swamp. I could find several options of reconstructing the
                          word for this animal based on evidence of the sister languages.
                          These are:

                          *algs M.-i "elk" (ON elgr, OE eolh (?), but OHG el(a)ho M.-an).
                          However, "elk" is not "deer", strictly spoken. The feminine form
                          could probably be *algini F.-jo or maybe just algs F.-i.

                          *haíruts M.-a "deer" (ON hjörtr, OE heor(o)t, OHG hiruz). Seems OK
                          semantically, but I am at a total loss with probable feminine.
                          *hairuti F.-jo?

                          *hráins M.-a "reindeer" (ON hreinn, OE hrân). Same is here. Or maybe
                          one could use *hrainadius N.-a covering both sexes.

                          Now as I was in any case compelled to resort to a reconstruction,
                          I thought of another possibility. I speculated that the word (and
                          maybe the plot of the story as well) could have been taken by the
                          Goths from a non-Germanic language spoken in the area where the
                          described event took place. Newcomers are usually apt to borrow
                          words for local fauna from natives of the landscape, after all.
                          Being not a biologist I can't judge whether the deer of the South
                          Russian steppes did to any significant extent differ from the deer
                          met in places of the Gothic Urheimat (wherever this have been
                          situated). If it really did, then that's an argument for the
                          loanword suggestion.

                          In my opinion, the donor-language in question could have been
                          Sarmatian or Alanic, i. e. Northeastern Iranian. The word is
                          OIr. *sâka-, still living in Ossetic sag "hart". One of the major
                          Scythian tribes, namely the Sacae, bore this name as their ethnonym
                          (so Abaev 1949, rejected by Szemerenyi 1980). The voicing of
                          intervocalic k > g occured in Alanic ca. 2nd – 3rd centuries CE
                          (Abaev o. c.), while the final vowels were still kept intact. This
                          corresponds to the time of the presence of the Goths in the Black
                          Sea region. The resulting Gothic form could have been *saga M.-an
                          with the meaning "(Scythian steppe) deer". Hence the feminine
                          counterpart is *sago F.-on (in Ossetic, they say syl-sag,
                          lit. "female deer").

                          Possible objection: the first /a/ in presumed Alanic *saga (> Oss.
                          sag) must have been a long â. The question is whether the phonetic
                          system of Gothic did already have the long â too, and, if not, what
                          sound it could have substituted for it. Proto-Germanic did in fact
                          turn all â's into ô's, and it involved loanwords too. Examples are
                          PCelt. Dânuvios > Go. Dônawi, Lat. Rômânus > Go. Rumôns. But later,
                          Gothic developed an â of its own, in words like brâhta, þâhta etc
                          where the -âh- is from earlier -anh-. It seems to have been spoken
                          without nasalization in the "historical time" (Braune-Helm 1952).
                          Later loans from Greek and Latin display Gothic /a/ standing for the
                          long vowel: fâskja, pâska (Streitberg 1920). The exact dating of the
                          loss of the nasalization however is not known. Also, some dialects
                          of Gothic might have been keeping the nasalized pronunciation longer
                          than others. In which case the old conventional ô could still have
                          been used to render foreign â.

                          Ualarauans
                        • llama_nom
                          Hey there, Ualarauans, I see I ve got a bit of catching up reading recent posts! In the meantime, another Germanic word for deer could be reconstructed as
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 29, 2007
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                            Hey there, Ualarauans,

                            I see I've got a bit of catching up reading recent posts! In the
                            meantime, another Germanic word for "deer" could be reconstructed as

                            'raiha' M. -an. (OE 'rá', earlier 'ráha'; OE 'ráh-déor'; ON 'rábukkr'
                            "roe-buck", OHG rêh, rêch - but 'rêho' "billy goat").
                            'raih(j)o', F. -on. (OE 'ræ:ge', G 'Rehe' - but OHG 'rêia'"she-goat";
                            ON 'rá').

                            Under Rehe, Grimm lists the following synonyms: ricke, rehe, hille, geisz.

                            When I was working on that poem [
                            http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm ], I didn't realise (or else
                            had forgotten) that the deer was female in Jordanes. I referred to it
                            as 'hairuts', 'raiha' and less specifically 'dius' "animal". So I
                            might have to revise that. Or just call it an alternative tradition...

                            > *haíruts M.-a "deer" (ON hjörtr, OE heor(o)t, OHG hiruz). Seems OK
                            > semantically, but I am at a total loss with probable feminine.
                            > *hairuti F.-jo?

                            It would be handy for my alliteration if we could find one. I wonder
                            what Grimm's 'hille' comes from.

                            > Possible objection: the first /a/ in presumed Alanic *saga (> Oss.
                            > sag) must have been a long â. The question is whether the phonetic
                            > system of Gothic did already have the long â too, and, if not, what
                            > sound it could have substituted for it. Proto-Germanic did in fact
                            > turn all â's into ô's, and it involved loanwords too. Examples are
                            > PCelt. Dânuvios > Go. Dônawi, Lat. Rômânus > Go. Rumôns. But later,
                            > Gothic developed an â of its own, in words like brâhta, þâhta etc
                            > where the -âh- is from earlier -anh-. It seems to have been spoken
                            > without nasalization in the "historical time" (Braune-Helm 1952).
                            > Later loans from Greek and Latin display Gothic /a/ standing for the
                            > long vowel: fâskja, pâska (Streitberg 1920). The exact dating of the
                            > loss of the nasalization however is not known. Also, some dialects
                            > of Gothic might have been keeping the nasalized pronunciation longer
                            > than others. In which case the old conventional ô could still have
                            > been used to render foreign â.

                            The change /a:/ to /o:/ is very early, already in complete in
                            Proto-Germanic. The loss of /n/ before /h/ and compensatory
                            lengthening is also shared by all branches of Germanic, so unless more
                            information comes to light, I'd guess Alanic /a:/ would find its
                            closest match in Gothic /a:/ (whether nasalised or not).

                            LN
                          • ualarauans
                            Hi Lama, ... as ... ON rábukkr ... goat ; ... hille, geisz. ... else ... to it ... tradition... There s actually some evidence for an alternative tradition.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 29, 2007
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                              Hi Lama,

                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hey there, Ualarauans,
                              >
                              > I see I've got a bit of catching up reading recent posts! In the
                              > meantime, another Germanic word for "deer" could be reconstructed
                              as
                              >
                              > 'raiha' M. -an. (OE 'rá', earlier 'ráha'; OE 'ráh-déor';
                              ON 'rábukkr'
                              > "roe-buck", OHG rêh, rêch - but 'rêho' "billy goat").
                              > 'raih(j)o', F. -on. (OE 'ræ:ge', G 'Rehe' - but OHG 'rêia'"she-
                              goat";
                              > ON 'rá').
                              >
                              > Under Rehe, Grimm lists the following synonyms: ricke, rehe,
                              hille, geisz.
                              >
                              > When I was working on that poem [
                              > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm ], I didn't realise (or
                              else
                              > had forgotten) that the deer was female in Jordanes. I referred
                              to it
                              > as 'hairuts', 'raiha' and less specifically 'dius' "animal". So I
                              > might have to revise that. Or just call it an alternative
                              tradition...

                              There's actually some evidence for an alternative tradition. In
                              several versions of the deer-legend the animal could have been male.
                              The Old Church Slavonic translation of the Simeon Logotheta's
                              Chronicle (10th ct.) says: GotQi prêshídúshe Meotískoje jezero
                              elafomí vodimi "The Goths (sic!) having crossed the Maeotic lake led
                              by a deer (masculine)", where elafomí (instr. sg. of elafú*) is of
                              course Greek ELAFOS which can be both masculine and feminine. The
                              Hungarian legend mentions szarvas "stag" (see
                              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4894). Hungarian
                              doesn't distinguish grammatical genders, but szarvas seems to be
                              borrowed from a satem IE (Iranian?) masculine word cognate to Lat.
                              cervus.

                              Still, Sozomenus (Hist. Eccl. VI, 37) writes: ELAFOS DIAFUGOUSA
                              (feminine). Procopius (Bell. Goth. IV, 5) writes: ELAFON DE MIAN
                              PROS AUTWN FEUFOUSAN (feminine); THi ELAFWi EPISPESQAI TAUTHi
                              (feminine). Agathias (Hist. V, 11): EITE hWS ALLHQWS ELAFOU TINOS
                              KATA TOUTO DH TO QRULOUMENON TA PRWTA hHGHSAMENHS (feminine).

                              > > *haíruts M.-a "deer" (ON hjörtr, OE heor(o)t, OHG hiruz). Seems
                              OK
                              > > semantically, but I am at a total loss with probable feminine.
                              > > *hairuti F.-jo?
                              >
                              > It would be handy for my alliteration if we could find one. I
                              wonder
                              > what Grimm's 'hille' comes from.

                              In MHG hilde, hille meant "eifrig", "rasch", "geschäftig". Is this
                              it? Fick-Falk-Torp (1909) explain it as a probable cognate of PG
                              *haldan with the original meaning "(Vieh) hüten".

                              Ualarauans
                            • llama_nom
                              A couple more possibilities: Go. *hinda F -o, or *hindo F -on (OE hind, ON hind; OLG *hinda (MDu., Du. hinde), OHG hinta (MHG, Ger. hinde), wk. fem. The OED
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 30, 2007
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                                A couple more possibilities:

                                Go. *hinda F -o, or *hindo F -on (OE hind, ON hind; OLG *hinda (MDu.,
                                Du. hinde), OHG hinta (MHG, Ger. hinde), wk. fem. The OED says "some
                                suggest derivation from Goth. hinþan to catch; others would connect it
                                with Gr. KEMAS young deer, pricket."

                                Go. ?*dámo F -on (masc. ?*dáma M -an). But the exact connection
                                between English and North Germanic, on the one hand, and German on the
                                other is unclear.

                                Under 'doe', the OED has:

                                "OE. dá is thought by some to be a contracted form, cognate with OHG.
                                tâmo, dâmo wk. masc., MHG. tâme, G. dam- (in damhirsch, damwild), a.
                                L. dáma, damma f., sometimes m., fallow deer, buck, doe; but there are
                                serious difficulties. See Pogatscher Gr. Lat. u. Rom. Lehnworte im
                                Altengl. §302."

                                Grimm, under Damhirsch, mentions "althd. tâmo und tâm GRAFF 5, 422,
                                mhd. tâme, tâmel; ags. dâ; dän. daa, daahjort, [...] ital. daino,
                                daina; franz. daim, daine".
                              • ualarauans
                                ... (MDu., ... says some ... connect it ... FFT say it s from PG *hindî ( Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems strange to me. They also say it s from earlier
                                Message 15 of 29 , Sep 30, 2007
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                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Go. *hinda F -o, or *hindo F -on (OE hind, ON hind; OLG *hinda
                                  (MDu.,
                                  > Du. hinde), OHG hinta (MHG, Ger. hinde), wk. fem. The OED
                                  says "some
                                  > suggest derivation from Goth. hinþan to catch; others would
                                  connect it
                                  > with Gr. KEMAS young deer, pricket."

                                  FFT say it's from PG *hindî (> Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems
                                  strange to me. They also say it's from earlier *hemdî and cognate to
                                  KEMAS (Gen. KEMADOS). Interestingly, NHG has Hinde and Hindin, both
                                  feminine. I guess it's this latter Hindin (with an "extra"
                                  feminizator) which led some to conclude about an –în- stem. OE and
                                  ON as I can gather are F.-o, right?

                                  -------------------------------------------------

                                  Þata was leitil waiht, / liþau unmahteig. / HINDA (?) hvarboda / af
                                  hairdai ainA. / Jah seiþu warþ. / Jah saurgandEI warþ. / FralusanA
                                  in fanja, / SI rann framis.

                                  hatiza, iþ RAIHON / rinnan lailotun. / Nahts neiþhardus. / Fraus
                                  nasos IZOS smalos.

                                  Is it OK with the rhyme now I wonder?

                                  Ualarauans
                                • Francisc Czobor
                                  Hi, Ualarauans, There might be a connection between the Hungarian szarvas and Latin cervus , but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form szarv horn,
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 1, 2007
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                                    Hi, Ualarauans,

                                    There might be a connection between the Hungarian "szarvas" and
                                    Latin "cervus", but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form
                                    szarv "horn, antler", the meaning being "having horns/antlers". As
                                    substantive it means "deer" (any gender), and as adjective: "with
                                    horns/antlers, horned", as in the compound szarvasmarha "horned
                                    cattle".
                                    The word szarv "horn" is common Finno-Ugrian, having cognates in all
                                    other Finno-Ugrian languages (Finnish: sarvi; Estonian: sarv;
                                    Livonian: so:ra, sa:ra; Saami [Lappish]: c^oar've; Mordvin: s'uro,
                                    s'ura; Mari [Cheremis]: s^ur; Udmurt: s'ur; Komi: s'ur; Khanty
                                    [Ostyak]: s'arBi; Mansi [Vogul]: s'o:re). This common Finno-Ugrian
                                    word is considered to be of Indo-European (satem, most probably
                                    Iranic) origin (cf. Avestan sru:, srva:, Mod. Pers. seru:, suru:[n];
                                    other cognates mentioned there are Latin cervus and German Horn).
                                    (source: A Magyar Nyelv Történeti-Etimológiai Szótára [The Historical-
                                    Etymological Dictionary of the Hungarian Language], Akadémiai Kiadó,
                                    Budapest, 1976)
                                    The old Hungarian chronicles mentioning the deer-legend were written
                                    in Latin, the oldest of them being that of Simon de Keza (written
                                    1282-1285) (followed by the Chronicon Hungariae Pictum / Painted
                                    Chronicle of Vienna, written around 1360, etc.). Until now, I have
                                    found only modern Hungarian translations of Keza's work, where the
                                    animal appears sometimes as "gímszarvas" (stag), sometimes
                                    as "szarvas ünö" (doe). But, finally, I have found the Latin text,
                                    only a part of it, but containing the passage of interest
                                    (http://www.konyv-e.hu/pdf/Kezai-latin-r.pdf): there is clearly about
                                    a "cerva" ! The passage reads:
                                    "Accidit autem dierum una venandi causa ipsos perrexisse; quibus in
                                    deserto cum cerva occurrisset, in paludes Meotidas illam insequentes,
                                    fugiit ante eos. Cumque ibi ab oculis eorum prorsus vanuisset,
                                    diutius requisitam invenire nullo modo potuerunt. Peragratis tandem
                                    paludibus memoratis pro armentis nutriendis ipsam conspexerant
                                    oportunam."
                                    The influence of Iordanes is obvious.

                                    Francisc



                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                    > ...
                                    > There's actually some evidence for an alternative tradition. In
                                    > several versions of the deer-legend the animal could have been
                                    male.
                                    > The Old Church Slavonic translation of the Simeon Logotheta's
                                    > Chronicle (10th ct.) says: GotQi prêshídúshe Meotískoje jezero
                                    > elafomí vodimi "The Goths (sic!) having crossed the Maeotic lake
                                    led
                                    > by a deer (masculine)", where elafomí (instr. sg. of elafú*) is of
                                    > course Greek ELAFOS which can be both masculine and feminine. The
                                    > Hungarian legend mentions szarvas "stag" (see
                                    > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4894).
                                    Hungarian
                                    > doesn't distinguish grammatical genders, but szarvas seems to be
                                    > borrowed from a satem IE (Iranian?) masculine word cognate to Lat.
                                    > cervus.
                                    > ...
                                  • ualarauans
                                    Hi Francisc, ... all ... [n]; ... Historical- ... Kiadó, ... At first I thought szarvas preserves Indo-Iranian a-stem masculine ending -as, much like Finnish
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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                                      Hi Francisc,

                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > There might be a connection between the Hungarian "szarvas" and
                                      > Latin "cervus", but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form
                                      > szarv "horn, antler", the meaning being "having horns/antlers". As
                                      > substantive it means "deer" (any gender), and as adjective: "with
                                      > horns/antlers, horned", as in the compound szarvasmarha "horned
                                      > cattle".
                                      > The word szarv "horn" is common Finno-Ugrian, having cognates in
                                      all
                                      > other Finno-Ugrian languages (Finnish: sarvi; Estonian: sarv;
                                      > Livonian: so:ra, sa:ra; Saami [Lappish]: c^oar've; Mordvin: s'uro,
                                      > s'ura; Mari [Cheremis]: s^ur; Udmurt: s'ur; Komi: s'ur; Khanty
                                      > [Ostyak]: s'arBi; Mansi [Vogul]: s'o:re). This common Finno-Ugrian
                                      > word is considered to be of Indo-European (satem, most probably
                                      > Iranic) origin (cf. Avestan sru:, srva:, Mod. Pers. seru:, suru:
                                      [n];
                                      > other cognates mentioned there are Latin cervus and German Horn).
                                      > (source: A Magyar Nyelv Történeti-Etimológiai Szótára [The
                                      Historical-
                                      > Etymological Dictionary of the Hungarian Language], Akadémiai
                                      Kiadó,
                                      > Budapest, 1976)

                                      At first I thought szarvas preserves Indo-Iranian a-stem masculine
                                      ending -as, much like Finnish germanisms do. The expected proto-word
                                      could be then smth like *s'arvas "horned animal" < PIE *k'er@w-:
                                      *k'r.w-o- (Pokorny I, 576) – cf. Lith. kárve, OCSl. krava (both
                                      fem.) "cow", OPruss. kurwis "ox" (with a surprising initial k- in
                                      otherwise satem languages). Now I see from your exposition that
                                      the -as in szarvas is a Hungarian suffix and does not account for
                                      gender. Thank you for clearing this up.

                                      > The old Hungarian chronicles mentioning the deer-legend were
                                      written
                                      > in Latin, the oldest of them being that of Simon de Keza (written
                                      > 1282-1285) (followed by the Chronicon Hungariae Pictum / Painted
                                      > Chronicle of Vienna, written around 1360, etc.). Until now, I have
                                      > found only modern Hungarian translations of Keza's work, where the
                                      > animal appears sometimes as "gímszarvas" (stag), sometimes
                                      > as "szarvas ünö" (doe). But, finally, I have found the Latin text,
                                      > only a part of it, but containing the passage of interest
                                      > (http://www.konyv-e.hu/pdf/Kezai-latin-r.pdf): there is clearly
                                      about
                                      > a "cerva" ! The passage reads:
                                      > "Accidit autem dierum una venandi causa ipsos perrexisse; quibus in
                                      > deserto cum cerva occurrisset, in paludes Meotidas illam
                                      insequentes,
                                      > fugiit ante eos. Cumque ibi ab oculis eorum prorsus vanuisset,
                                      > diutius requisitam invenire nullo modo potuerunt. Peragratis tandem
                                      > paludibus memoratis pro armentis nutriendis ipsam conspexerant
                                      > oportunam."
                                      > The influence of Iordanes is obvious.

                                      It is obvious indeed. Thank you for citing this source. Well, looks
                                      like one argument less for a male deer. Now what we have for a "doe"
                                      in Gothic (a bit of summing up):

                                      *hinda F.-o (*hindo F.-on; *hindei F.-ein)
                                      *raiho F.-on (*raihjo F.-on)
                                      *sago F.-on

                                      *demo (?) F.-on seems really problematic...

                                      Ualarauans
                                    • llama_nom
                                      ... OE has acc.sg. hinde , consistent with F. -o, although the i-stems could take acc.sg. too by analogy with o-stems. I m not sure about ON; just one
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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                                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > FFT say it's from PG *hindî (> Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems
                                        > strange to me. They also say it's from earlier *hemdî and cognate to
                                        > KEMAS (Gen. KEMADOS). Interestingly, NHG has Hinde and Hindin, both
                                        > feminine. I guess it's this latter Hindin (with an "extra"
                                        > feminizator) which led some to conclude about an –în- stem. OE and
                                        > ON as I can gather are F.-o, right?

                                        OE has acc.sg. 'hinde', consistent with F. -o, although the i-stems
                                        could take acc.sg. too by analogy with o-stems. I'm not sure about
                                        ON; just one example in the Orðabók Háskólans textasafn, in the singular:

                                        http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?lemma=hind&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m1=hind+hinda+hindanna+hindar+hindarinnar+hindin+hindina+hindinni+hindir+hindirnar+hindum+hindunum+hindurnar&l1=Leita&lmax=1

                                        sáu þeir hind eina stóra ok væna ok ríða þar eptir
                                        (Hjálmars saga ok Ölvis).

                                        Modern Icelandic has gen.sg. -ar, nom./acc.pl. ir., but a lot of
                                        o-stems have come to be declined like this. The OHG on-stem 'hinta'
                                        would look the same in the nom.sg. as an o-stem, so for now, I'm guess
                                        ing that it was originally an o-stem.


                                        > -------------------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Þata was leitil waiht, / liþau unmahteig. / HINDA (?) hvarboda / af
                                        > hairdai ainA. / Jah seiþu warþ. / Jah saurgandEI warþ. / FralusanA
                                        > in fanja, / SI rann framis.
                                        >
                                        > hatiza, iþ RAIHON / rinnan lailotun. / Nahts neiþhardus. / Fraus
                                        > nasos IZOS smalos.
                                        >
                                        > Is it OK with the rhyme now I wonder?

                                        Well, it does bad things to the meter in a couple of places ;-) But
                                        we can solve that easy enough:

                                        B ... Þata was leitil waiht, ....x x x / x /
                                        D ... liþau unmahteig. ........../ (x) / \ x
                                        B ... Af hairdai hvarb ..........x / x /
                                        A ... hinda aina. .............../ x / x
                                        B ... Jah seiþu warþ. ...........x / x /
                                        E ... Saurgandei warþ. ........../ \ x /
                                        A ... Fralusana in fanja ........(x) / (x) x / x
                                        A ... si rann framis. ...........x x / x

                                        (Or 'Jah seiþu warþ, jah saurgandei... x / x / . x / \ x)

                                        Technical jiggery-pokery: Verbal prefixes and the negatve particle
                                        'ni' are allowed in an on-line (odd line) of Sievers type A or D. The
                                        final line is Sievers type A3 (single delayed lift), cf. OE 'se wæs
                                        mín fæder', with "resolution" blocked by the not entirely unstressed
                                        preceding word.

                                        As an alternative to Go. *raih(j)o, we could perhaps have Go. *raigjo
                                        (which fits exactly with the OE and OHG forms). Gothic levels out
                                        Verner's Law forms in the strong verbs and elsewhere, and may well
                                        have done here by analogy with 'raiha', but maybe not.
                                      • llama_nom
                                        There we go: http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over from before the deer s gender change
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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                                          There we go:

                                          http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm

                                          Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                                          from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I *think* I
                                          got them all...
                                        • ualarauans
                                          ... *think* I ... The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/ which is translated She was hard pressed . But this may refer to /þata
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
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                                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > There we go:
                                            >
                                            > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
                                            >
                                            > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                                            > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
                                            *think* I
                                            > got them all...

                                            The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
                                            which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
                                            to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.

                                            A couple more comments while we are upon it...

                                            /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?

                                            /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                                            that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                                            parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                                            *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

                                            /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
                                            seljaizos?

                                            /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)

                                            /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
                                            thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
                                            no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
                                            but is it not "thou mightest"?

                                            And I like your *niqis for "water monster" (or smth like this)!


                                            What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
                                            could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
                                            Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
                                            (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).

                                            Ualarauans
                                          • llama_nom
                                            ... That s what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of the meter, and because dius was the last noun mentioned. But given what
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > There we go:
                                              > >
                                              > > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
                                              > >
                                              > > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                                              > > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
                                              > *think* I
                                              > > got them all...
                                              >
                                              > The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
                                              > which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
                                              > to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.


                                              That's what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of
                                              the meter, and because 'dius' was the last noun mentioned. But given
                                              what Streitberg says in section 236.1-2, and Wright in 429.1-2 about
                                              natural gender sometimes taking precedence over grammatical gender, I
                                              suspect either would be acceptable here (feminine because we know the
                                              animal is female, or neuter because of the gender of 'dius'). I stuck
                                              to feminine in the English translation though because we've lost the
                                              idea of arbitrary grammatical gender on nouns, so it might be a bit
                                              confusing to shift back and forth between neuter and feminine
                                              (although even in English there's some leeway when talking about animals).


                                              > A couple more comments while we are upon it...
                                              >
                                              > /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?


                                              You're right, of course. Incidentally, the prefixed and unprefixed
                                              forms can both be used perfectively: 'nahtamat waurhta' (Mk 6:21) :
                                              'gawaurhtedun imma nahtamat' (J 12:2).


                                              > /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                                              > that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                                              > parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                                              > *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?


                                              Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
                                              but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
                                              reason to favour one over the other?


                                              > /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
                                              > seljaizos?


                                              Yes, well spotted! Hmm, I'm getting a slight sense of deja-vu here, a
                                              nasty feeling that maybe I saw this months ago and got distracted by
                                              something else before I got round to correcting it...


                                              > /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)


                                              Argh, extremely well spotted! I had to read this three times before I
                                              saw what was wrong with it! At first I assumed you must be pointing
                                              out a grammatical error, so I looked at the poem, couldn't see what it
                                              was, then looked back here, and only then did the penny drop.


                                              >
                                              > /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
                                              > thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
                                              > no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
                                              > but is it not "thou mightest"?


                                              I was thinking of 'hvana wileiþ ei fraletau izwis?' (Mt 27:17). But
                                              then we've also got 'þana gawenja þammei managizo fragaf' (L 7:43).
                                              And the 'ei' might be necessary in Mt 27:17 to go with the subjunctive
                                              /optative to give the sense of wishing, so I'm incline to go with
                                              'þanei' as you suggest.

                                              Since I didn't actually grow up saying "thou might(est)" in everyday
                                              conversation, all criticism is welcome! I was thinking of 'might' as
                                              subjunctive here, used because the ability to drive anyone out is
                                              unreal in the opinion of the speaker. Looking now, there seem to be
                                              examples of both 'might' and 'might(e)st' sometimes either in the same
                                              construction, which makes me think they may have been interchangeable
                                              at least in some parts of the modern period. Where Chaucer has 'thogh
                                              thou myghtest' in the Merchant's Tale, a modern adaptation has 'though
                                              thou might'. Robert Pleasants in the 18th c. writes 'that thou might
                                              be better able', but there are lots of 17th c. examples of optative
                                              'might(e)st', however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
                                              Bible as subjunctive:

                                              Though thou mount on high as the eagle, and though thy nest be set
                                              among the stars, I will bring thee down from thence, saith Jehovah.
                                              (Obadiah 1:4, KJB 1611).

                                              That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou
                                              hast been instructed.
                                              (Luke 1:4, KJB 1611).

                                              Compare: "Though thou pour the ocean into thy pitcher, It can hold no
                                              more than one day's store." (Rumi's Masnavi i Ma'navi, trans.
                                              Whinfield 1898).


                                              > [...]
                                              >
                                              > What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
                                              > could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
                                              > Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
                                              > (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).


                                              Köbler reconstructs PGmc. *raigjon, F on-stem. OHG has 'réia' and
                                              'reiga'. I'm not quite sure to get from this vowel to NHG 'ricke'
                                              (Grimm cites dialectal alternatives 'rieke' and 'rücke'), but the
                                              survival of /k/ there suggests that it was originally */g/ rather than
                                              */gw/. I'm not sure how */wj/ develops in Proto Old English; I'll
                                              have to look that up.

                                              Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
                                            • llama_nom
                                              ... but -wiseis will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any reason to favour one over the other? Revised to Jah Wulþuwiseis x / x / (x) (Sievers
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                                >> /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                                                >> that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                                                >> parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                                                >> *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

                                                > Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
                                                but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
                                                reason to favour one over the other?

                                                Revised to 'Jah Wulþuwiseis' x / x / (x) (Sievers type B), on the
                                                principle "if there's no indication otherwise, tribes can be i-stems".
                                              • ualarauans
                                                ... Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I m flattered and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks. /allaim inu hrabna/
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > [...]
                                                  > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!

                                                  Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                                                  and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.

                                                  /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                                                  something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                                                  the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                                                  allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?

                                                  Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                                                  could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?

                                                  /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                                                  Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                                                  unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?

                                                  /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                                                  just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                                                  translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                                                  alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?

                                                  /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                                                  their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?

                                                  /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                                                  shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?

                                                  /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                                                  with the bolts"
                                                  and
                                                  /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                                                  [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                                                  intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                                                  to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                                                  any examples?

                                                  /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                                                  dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                                                  Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?

                                                  /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                                                  above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?

                                                  And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                                                  lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!

                                                  Ualarauans
                                                • llama_nom
                                                  ... Correction, thou might doesn t, but other verbs do. There seems to be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least: For though thou
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > [...] however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
                                                    > Bible as subjunctive

                                                    Correction, 'thou might' doesn't, but other verbs do. There seems to
                                                    be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least:

                                                    For though thou wash thee with nitre

                                                    Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee
                                                    with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in
                                                    vain shalt thou make thyself fair;

                                                    though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again,

                                                    though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away,
                                                    __________________________________________________________

                                                    Thanks for the extra comments - and the extra praise! It would be a
                                                    poorer poem without your help. I'll have a proper look through them
                                                    tomorrow. Just a couple of replies: 'unhulþo' and 'skohsl', though
                                                    feminine and neuter respectively, are each found with a masculine
                                                    adjective on occasion (Mt 9:33, Mk 8:31; and cf. Mk 3:22 þamma
                                                    reikistin unhulþono)--see Streitberg 236.1. But, given the story, it
                                                    might be better to make them explicitly male, 'miþ unhulþam'. You're
                                                    right about 'funsana' and 'gadauþniþ' and 'haubida'...
                                                  • ualarauans
                                                    To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there s an attested word Skwþus translating SKUQHS
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                                      To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a
                                                      more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there's an attested word
                                                      Skwþus translating SKUQHS "Scythian" in Col. 3:11, but this clearly
                                                      was a newly borrowed name, unheard of before the Bible translation.
                                                      When we are dealing with parts of Getica that apparently go back to
                                                      the lost Gothic epics (such as the story of the migration into Oium,
                                                      for example) and mention "Scythia" and "Scythians", a native Gothic
                                                      term is to be found. In fact, Jordanes recorded several East
                                                      European ethnonyms in the form presumably close to spoken Gothic
                                                      variant: these are e. g. Antes (Go. *Anteis pl.) and Spali (Go.
                                                      *Spalos or *Spalans pl.). Further there is the list of peoples
                                                      conquered by Ermanaric in Getica 116 where the mysterious
                                                      Golthescytha thiudos are mentioned. The most plausible of many
                                                      different interpretations of this name first suggested by von
                                                      Grienberger (1895) and supported by Stender-Petersen (1927) and
                                                      Korkkanen (1975) views it as a Latino-Gothic hybrid Gotth[a]e or
                                                      Gotth[ic]e Scytha-thiudos, that is "Scythian peoples [subjected] to
                                                      the Goth (= Ermanaric)" or "peoples of Scythia in the Gothic
                                                      language". This is followed with eleven heavily distorted names of
                                                      these peoples. The word Scytha-thiudos pl. (cf. Gut-þiuda) seems to
                                                      comprehend the element Skwþa-, but this is most likely a later
                                                      conjecture made by Cassiodorus or Jordanes.

                                                      Currently there are several suggested etymologies of the name of
                                                      Scythians. The one I find most convincing explains Greek SKUQAI as a
                                                      phonetic approximation of OIr. *Skuda- or *Skuða- derived from the
                                                      PIE stem *skeu(d)- "to throw", "to shoot", "to push". Scythians are
                                                      thus "archers" literally (see for details Oswald Szemerenyi's Four
                                                      Old Iranian Ethnic Names:..., 1980:20ff). The Germanic reflex of the
                                                      same stem is PG *skeutan "to shoot", "to cast a missile" >
                                                      ON skjóta, OE scéotan, OHG skiozan, Crimean Gothic schieten etc.
                                                      The attested nomen agentis in the historical languages – ON skyti,
                                                      OE scytta, OHG skuzzo – points towards
                                                      PG *skutjan- M.-an "shooter", "archer" (ibid.), but cf.
                                                      ON andskoti "opponent", "adversary" which < *anda-skutan-, lit.
                                                      "one who shoots back (or against smb.)", without -j- in the suffix.
                                                      Hence we can reconstruct Go. *skiutan st. v. 2 "to shoot"; *skutja
                                                      M.-an "archer" and its variant *skuta M.-an. The last form is the
                                                      closest analogue of the Scythians' ethnonym possible. Semantically
                                                      it's a perfect designation for a people of steppe nomads with
                                                      mounted archers comprising next to 100% of its war power.

                                                      By the time of the Gothic migrations the epoch of the Scythians
                                                      dominating the steppes north of the Black Sea was long over. They
                                                      had been effectively replaced by kindred Iranian-speaking tribes of
                                                      Sarmatians, Alans, Iazyges and others. Their ethnonym must have gone
                                                      away with them, although the Graeco-Roman authors continued to use
                                                      it indiscriminately for all nomadic peoples of the Northeast,
                                                      including the Goths. Thus we are far from being sure of an immediate
                                                      genetic succession between Scythian self-name *Skuða-ta pl. and
                                                      hypothetical Go. *Skutans. If the latter was ever used for Iranian
                                                      (and probably Hunnish as well) neighbors of the Goths, it could well
                                                      have occured independently. Still, for translation purposes I'd
                                                      suggest *Skutans and *Skuta-þiuda (*Skuta-land), not Skwþus and its
                                                      derivatives, whenever it comes to render Scythae and Scythia in the
                                                      passages of Getica taken from the Gothic oral tradition.

                                                      Ualarauans

                                                      P.S. To compare with *Skuta-þiuda is OHG folk
                                                      sceotantero "Schützenvolk" in Hildebrandslied 51.
                                                    • llama_nom
                                                      ... You re right, as usual :-) I ve replaced inu with alja . ... Well, we have got awiliudon , supposing the first element of that is from the same root?
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
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                                                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > [...]
                                                        > > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
                                                        >
                                                        > Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                                                        > and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.
                                                        >
                                                        > /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                                                        > something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                                                        > the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                                                        > allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?


                                                        You're right, as usual :-) I've replaced 'inu' with 'alja'.



                                                        > Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                                                        > could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?


                                                        Well, we have got 'awiliudon', supposing the first element of that is
                                                        from the same root?


                                                        > /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                                                        > Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                                                        > unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?


                                                        Changed to 'unhulþam' as you suggest to emphasise that they're male.


                                                        > /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                                                        > just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                                                        > translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                                                        > alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?


                                                        I think either would fit the meaning (cf. 2Cor 13:5), but I've changed
                                                        to 'unfraisan' for the sake of the extra gratuitous alliteration.


                                                        > /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                                                        > their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?


                                                        Changed to 'Hilms gulþahrudans / ni sat ana haubida im'. I think
                                                        'haubidam' would be possible, but for singuar, see 'ni indrobnai izwar
                                                        hairto' = hUMWN hE KARDIA (J 14:1); 'iþ hairto ize' = hE de KARDIA
                                                        AUTWN (Mk 7:6) = KJB 'their heart' = Icelandic 'hjarta þeirra'.
                                                        Google turns up lots of examples of Icelandic 'í/á/yfir höfði þeirra',
                                                        and in st. 60 of the Old Norse Sólarljóð, we find:

                                                        Marga menn
                                                        sá ek moldar gengna,
                                                        þá er eigi máttu þjónustu ná;
                                                        heiðnar stjörnur
                                                        stóðu yfir höfði þeim
                                                        fáðar feiknstöfum.

                                                        "I saw many dead men who could not take service [with God]. Heathen
                                                        stars stood over their head[s], painted with evil letters/runes."


                                                        > /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                                                        > shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?


                                                        You're right.


                                                        > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                                                        > with the bolts"
                                                        > and
                                                        > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                                                        > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                                                        > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                                                        > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                                                        > any examples?
                                                        >
                                                        > /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                                                        > dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                                                        > Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?


                                                        I was trying to get across the idea that Audika (indulging in a bit of
                                                        traditional flyting before the battle) is telling Ibra that he (Ibra)
                                                        is fey, i.e. locked into a feverish or trance-like state of mind where
                                                        his every choice seems to bring death closer, as if he's
                                                        subconsciously working towards his own destruction, and so there's no
                                                        helping him, and it shows in the fact that his mind's on ancient
                                                        glories and tales rather than on the practical realities of the
                                                        chahged political situation.

                                                        http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0149.png


                                                        > /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                                                        > above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?


                                                        The plural was deliberate. The nameless grey-haired warrior is on the
                                                        side of the Huns and Gothic rebels against Airmanareiks. He's
                                                        addressing the forces loyal to Airmanareiks, currently holed up in
                                                        their fortified settlement (Ibra and his men). I think he's probably
                                                        a certain god (harjonds, from the same root as Herjan) who famously
                                                        turns up at such moments to ensure the battle goes according to his
                                                        inscrutable plans. He goads the defenders into leaving their position
                                                        of strength and coming out to fight in the open against superior
                                                        numbers; he also drops a hint to the attackers clues about how to get
                                                        them out if they refuse (cf. the end of Völsunga saga), although he
                                                        knows they won't. The reference to fire and enchantment was meant to
                                                        be an allusion to the story in Guta saga of the founding of Gotland
                                                        and how the spell that caused the island to sink every day was lifted
                                                        with fire; so he's invoking a memory of the very beginning of Gothic
                                                        history here at what must seem to the participants as something like
                                                        the end.


                                                        > And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                                                        > lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!


                                                        Þagk þus fairhaita, Walhahrabn, jah allaim fairni-liuþarjam þaim
                                                        þizeei *hugisahtins (ideas) ik skandalaus hlaf!
                                                      • llama_nom
                                                        ... This isn t quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the passive was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus and the active intransitive hve
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
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                                                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                                                          > with the bolts"
                                                          > and
                                                          > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                                                          > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                                                          > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                                                          > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                                                          > any examples?

                                                          This isn't quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the
                                                          passive 'was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus' and the active
                                                          intransitive 'hve wasjaima', 'gawasjam sarwam liuhadis', 'ni wasjaiþ
                                                          twaim paidom'. Or 'agisa mikillamma dishaibaida wesun' : 'ohtedun
                                                          agisa mikilamma'. But can we generalise from that to other uses of
                                                          the dative? I'll see if I can find a closer match somewhere. Or
                                                          would a preposition help: miþ, fram, af?
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