Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Attila's speech

Expand Messages
  • ualarauans
    Hi all, As I said it s highly probable that the language of Attila s court was Gothic. There was a lot of East Germanic kings round there, and they may have
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 23, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi all,

      As I said it's highly probable that the language of Attila's court
      was Gothic. There was a lot of East Germanic kings round there, and
      they may have had a pretty strong influence upon the Hun's decisions
      and actions. You all remember the famous bloodthirsty speech that
      Attila made before the Catalaunic battle (Getica, 202-206). Of
      course it was never spoken in the form which is delivered to us by
      Jordanes. Perhaps, there was no speech at all (I personally can't
      imagine how it was possible to speak before tens of thousands of
      warriors, without modern devices, so that any significant number of
      them would hear). Whatever it was, let us fancy that Attila did
      really speak a speech and that he spoke exactly what is written in
      Getica. What language could it be in? We'll never know. His auditory
      must have been so multilingual that no single language could help.
      But maybe his principal addressees were the "narrow circle" of
      closest advisors, favorites and most important warlords – chiefs of
      the coalition's strongest tribes. In this case he could well speak
      Gothic to them. Not the Gothic of the Bible, but a colloquial
      version of it. I tried to translate it "back" into Gothic from the
      corrupt Latin version of Jordanes. As the speech is rather long, it
      would be convenient to divide it into several postings. Below you
      can see the Latin text of Getica (my "Vorlage"), just to compare if
      you like.

      Getica, 202-206
      post uictorias tantarum gentium, post orbem, si consistatis,
      edomitum, ineptum iudicaueram tamquam ignaros rei uerbis acuere.
      quaerat hoc aut nouus ductor aut inexpertus exercitus. nec mihi fas
      est aliquid uulgare dicere, nec uobis oportet audire. quid autem
      aliud uos quam bellare consuetum? aut quid uiro forti suauius, quam
      uindicta manu querere? magnum munus a natura animos ultione satiare.
      adgrediamur igitur hostem alacres: audaciores sunt semper, qui
      inferunt bellum. adunatas dispicite dissonas gentes: indicium
      pauoris est societate defendi. en ante impetum nostrum terroribus
      iam feruntur, excelsa quaerunt, tumulos capiunt et sera paenitudine
      in campos monitiones efflagitant. nota uobis sunt quam sint leuia
      Romanorum arma: primo etiam non dico uulnere, sed ipso puluere
      grauantur, dum in ordine coeunt et acies testudineque conectunt. uos
      confligite perstantibus animis, ut soletis, despicientesque eorum
      aciem Alanos inuadite, in Uesegothas incumbite. inde nobis cita
      uictoria quaerere, unde se continet bellum. abscisa autem neruis mox
      membra relabuntur, nec potest stare corpus, cui ossa subtraxeris.
      consurgant animi, furor solitus intumescat. nunc consilia, Hunni,
      nunc arma depromite: aut uulneratus quis aduersarii mortem reposcat
      aut inlaesus hostium clade satietur. uicturos nulla tela conueniunt,
      morituros et in otio fata praecipitant. postremo cur fortuna Hunnos
      tot gentium uictores adseret, nisi ad certaminis huius gaudia
      praeparasset? quis denique Meotidarum iter maiores nostros aperuit
      tot saeculis clausum secretum? quis adhuc inermibus cedere faciebat
      armatos? faciem Hunnorum non poterat ferre adunata collectio. non
      fallor euentu: hic campus est, quem nobis tot prospera promiserunt.
      primus in hoste tela coiciam. si quis potuerit Attila pugnante otio
      ferre, sepultus est.

      You can find it also at
      http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/iordanes1.html#XXXIX

      An English version is available at
      http://www.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html#attila
      (not very precise, in my view).
    • ualarauans
      And here is my Gothic version (unattested words are marked with *) [Attila qaþ:] Afar sigiza swa managaizo þiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiþ,
      Message 2 of 29 , Aug 23, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        And here is my Gothic version (unattested words are marked with *)

        [Attila qaþ:]

        Afar sigiza swa managaizo þiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiþ,
        gatamidana, *until domidedjau <izwis> swaswe unweisans waihtais
        waurdam inwagjan. Sokjai þata andizuh niujis *drauhtins aiþþau
        unfraisans harjis. Nih mis binauht ist hva gamainjata qiþan, nih
        izwis skuld ist hausjan. Hva sweþauh anþar jus nibai militon biuhtai
        <sijuþ>? Aiþþau hva gumin swinþamma woþizo þau fraweit handau
        sokjan? Mikila giba <ist> at wistai ahmans *fragildis sadans
        briggan. Anaqimaima nu andastaþi *mundrai: balþizans sind sinteino
        þaiei farand du harjon. Gaqumanaim frakunneiþ missaleikaim þiudom:
        bandwo faurhteins ist gamainduþai driugan. Sai faura *ufarruna
        unsaramma agisa ju dishabanda, hlaina* sokjand, *haugans nimand jah
        <in> seiþjai idreigai in haiþjom tulgiþos usbidand. Kunþa izwis sind
        hvan sijaina leihta Rumone sarwa: frumein jah ni qiþa wundufnjai, ak
        silbin stubjau kaurjanda, miþþanei in tewai gagaggand jah hansos
        <ubuh> *skildugarda gawidand. Jus haifstjaiþ *gastoþaim ahmam swe
        biuhtai, fra-h-kunnandans hansai ize *Allanans dissitiþ, in
        *Wisugutans atdriusiþ. Þaruh uns *adrata sigis sokjan <skuld ist>,
        þarei sik gahabaiþ waihjo. Gamaitanaim þan *sinwom suns liþjus
        *afsliupand nih mag standan leik þammei *baina usnimis. Urreisaina
        ahmans, moþs swikunþs ufarwahsjai. Nu mitonins, *Huneis, nu wepna
        uslukiþ: jabai gawundoþs hvas – andastaþjis dauþu gatilo, aiþþau
        hails – fijande slauhtais gasoþjaidau. Þans *sigizwairþjans ni
        ainohun arhvazno undrinniþ, þans dauþubljans jah in rimisa
        *waiwaurds gadrauseiþ. Bi aftumin duhve *Wodans *Hunins swa
        managaizo þiudo fraujans andhaihait, nibai du þizos haifstais
        fahedai gamanwidedi? Þaþroþ-þan hvas *Aujo wig þaim airizam unsaraim
        ataugida þana swa managos aldins galukanan fulginana? Hvas nauh þaim
        *wepnalausam gakunnan gatawida þans *gawepnodans? Andawleizn *Hune
        ni mahtedun bairan galisanai alamans. Ik ni afairzjada bi þata
        habando gadaban: her akrs ist þanei unsis swa managos ansteis
        gahaihaitun. Fruma in andastaþi *spiuta gawairpa. Jabai hvas magi
        <at> *Attilin weihandin gahveilain <sis> haban, gafulhans ist.
      • ualarauans
        Adnotata (some remarks on the translation and requests for your aid) ineptus inept = *untils (Lat. aptus = Go. gatils). Cf. also OCSl. loan o.tilu no longer
        Message 3 of 29 , Aug 23, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Adnotata (some remarks on the translation and requests for your aid)

          ineptus "inept" = *untils (Lat. aptus = Go. gatils). Cf. also OCSl.
          loan o.tilu "no longer usable" and Go. compound untila-malsks.

          ignaros rei = unweisans waihtais. Other options are unwitans
          waihtais, unwitandans waiht. But the latter seems to mean
          rather "totally ignorant".

          uerbis acuere "to incite with words" = waurdam inwagjan. To
          translate acuere one could construct *neþljan (Lat. acus "needle" =
          Go. neþla).

          inexpertus "unexperienced" = unfraisans, lit. "untempted", here in
          the sense "not tested in combat". One could use ungakausiþs too, I
          think.

          oportet "ought to" = skuld ist. I wonder is it possible to say
          gaqimiþ, after Col. 3:18?

          bellare "to wage war" = militon. A tribute to the badly remembered
          [;-)] military pidgin (< Lat. militare), actually attested in the
          Bible. One could use Germanic weihan instead.

          uiro forti "for a strong man" = gumin swinþamma. Lat. fortis here
          perhaps rather "brave" than "strong" (it could mean both), so maybe
          gumin balþamma?

          animus "spirit" (NOT anima "soul") hic et passim = ahma. I've long
          wavered between ahma and saiwala. Any arguments in favor of either?

          satiare "to satiate" = sadans briggan (cf. satiari "to sate oneself"
          = saþs wairþan). Another possibility is gasoþjan (used below). The
          case is either dative or genitive. I'm in doubt.

          hostis "enemy" = andastaþjis. I was long thinking how to
          translate "opponent in war". Fijands seems too personal. Perhaps we
          should invent a word for it, smth like *andaweiha M.-an, but I'm not
          sure about the stem vowel and the next consonant, maybe *andawiga?

          qui inferunt bellum. This is a complicated moment and I'd like to
          elaborate a little. You know that Lat. bellum inferre means "to
          unleash an aggressive war", "to start hostilities", "to invade the
          enemy's territory". A literal rendering of this turn of speech in
          Gothic (smth like þaiei innatbairand wigan) wouldn't say much to a
          native speaker, I guess. I tried to find a Germanic semantic
          equivalent and I came to nothing better than þaiei farand du
          *harjon, lit. "those who go on a raid" (ON fara at herja). Other
          variants are þaiei bairand *harjaskildu "those who carry the shield
          of war" (ON bera herskjöld, is it fitting here?), þaiei slahand
          fruman slah "those who strike the first blow" (figura etymologica,
          ON höggva it fyrsta högg, iirc). Your opinions?

          adunatas "joint" = gaqumanaim, lit. "having come together".
          Galisanaim also possible?

          defendi "to defend oneself" = driugan, just "to fight". No attested
          Gothic word for "to defend" afaik. Or there is one?

          impetus "assault", "attack" etc = *ufarruns. Any better ideas?

          excelsa "heights" = hlaina N.-a pl. "hills". In fact, only gen. pl.
          hlaine is attested, it can well be M.-a/-i or F.-i too.

          tumulus "barrow" = *haugs, reconstructed after ON haugr. Other
          suggestions?

          nota uobis sunt "you know" = kunþa izwis sind (word for word after
          Latin). One could go just with singular: kunþ izwis ist, right?

          testudo "screen formed by body of troops in close array with
          overlapping shields" (Oxford Dict.) – a term of Roman military art.
          To translate it was an interesting task. My suggestions are:
          *skildugards "shield house" *skilduskairms M.-i "shield of shields"
          (both elements alliterate, also *skaljaskairms, as Go. skalja "tile"
          = Lat. testa), *skilduhrot "shield roof" and, last but not least,
          *skildubaurgs "shield fortress", after OHG sciltburc glossing Lat.
          testudo.

          incumbite = atdriusiþ. I thought of constructing *inkumbjan for
          incumbere (cf. attested anakumbjan "to lie down to a meal" < Lat.
          accumbere).

          inde ... unde "thence ... whence" = þaruh ... þarei "there ...
          where". I think literal þaþroh ... þaþroei would sound pretty
          clumsy. What do you think?

          solitus "habitual" = swikunþs "well-known".

          inlaesus "unhurt" = hails "healthy", "safe". Other variants are
          *ungamaiþs (gamaiþs "mutilated", "deformed", cf. ON
          meiðr "cripple"), unskaþans, *unsair as an adjective (cf. ON sárr
          and Finnish loan sairas "ill"). Your ideas?

          uicturos "those going to win", "the would-be victors" = *sigiz-
          wairþjans (cf. attested swulta-wairþja "one going to die"). Another
          good possibility is *sigisselins (acc. pl. masc.), constructed after
          ON sigrsæll "victorious".

          telum "missile" hic et infra = arhvazna "arrow". Afaik Lat. telum
          may refer to any type of weapon, but predominantly one which is
          thrown or shot, it could well be Go. *spiut N.-a (ON spjót, OHG
          spioz) "javelin".

          fata "fate (goddesses)", "weird sisters" = *waiwaurds "ill fate",
          cf. OHG (Hildebrandslied) wewurt "idem"; also ON urðr, OE wyrd, OHG
          wurt etc. I'm tempted to use smth like *naurneis in pl. = Lat. fata,
          but am not sure.

          fortuna = *Wodans. This is of course an interpretatio Gothica (god
          of battle deciding who wins and who loses). Translating fortuna is
          indeed a challenge, can someone remember a Norse goddess of good
          luck?

          uictores = fraujans ("masters", couldn't find a word for "victor").

          adseret (conject. adseruit?) "proclaimed" = andhaihait (an example
          with accusatiuus duplex is in John 9:22).

          Meotidarum iter "the way to the Maeotides" = *Aujo wig (acc. sg.). I
          think it's rather useless to try to reconstruct a Gothic name for
          the Maeotides (today's Azov Sea), definitely it was not the Greek
          word, so I used Go. *Aujos pl., because Azov lied right on the Huns'
          way into the Gothic Oium paradise.

          armatos "armed ones" = þans *gawepnodans (cf. ON vápnaðr). Another
          option (sounding more poetical) is þans in *alawepnja (ON í alvæpni).

          faciem "face" = andawleizn. One could use any of the synonyms
          (andwairþi, siuns, wlits etc), every with its own fine shades of
          meaning (for example, andwairþi hints more to "presence" of the
          Huns, siuns to their "sight" etc).

          adunata collectio = galisanai alamans pl. in the sense "all kinds of
          people that gathered together".

          euentu "result", "outcome" = bi þata habando gadaban "about [things]
          that are going to happen" (see similar phrasing in Mc. 10:32). Or
          maybe, bi *usgagg (as a calque of Lat. e-uentum)?

          tela coiciam = *spiuta gawairpa. If telum here = arhvazna (see
          above), then probably arhvaznos *skiuta "I'll shoot arrows", not
          gawairpa "I'll throw"? Can one "throw arrows"? In Latin, sagittam in
          hostem coicere (conjicere) is OK, but what about Gothic?

          otio ferre "to be at leisure" = gahveilain <sis> haban (attested).
          Another possibility is unwaurstwa wisan.

          All comments are of course welcome

          Ualarauans
        • ualarauans
          Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out here ;-). Having revised the text over and over again I ve arrived at the following version.
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 1, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out
            here ;-).

            Having revised the text over and over again I've arrived at the
            following version. All major emendations are listed below. The words
            in <...> have no matches in the Latin original but seem to be rather
            indispensable in Gothic. Your recommendations are, as before,
            welcome.

            (Getica 202-206 Gothice uersa)

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

            [Attila qaþ:]

            Afar sigiza swalaudaizo þiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiþ,
            gatamidana, until domidedjau <izwis> swaswe unweisans waihtais
            waurdam inwagjan. Sokjai þata andizuh niujis drauhtins aiþþau
            unfraisans harjis. Nih mis binauht ist hva gamainjata rodjan, nih
            izwis skuld ist hausjan. Hva raihtis anþar jus nibai militon biuhtai
            <sijuþ>? Aiþþau hva gumin swinþamma woþizo þau fraweit handau
            sokjan? Mikila giba <ist> at wistai ahmans fragildis sadans briggan.
            Anaqimaima nu andastaþi mundrai: balþizans sind sinteino þaiei
            farand du harjon. Gaqumanaim frakunneiþ missaleikaim þiudom: bandwo
            faurhteins ist gamainduþai driugan. Sai faura ufarruna unsaramma
            agisa ju dishabanda, hlaina sokjand, haugans nimand jah <in> seiþjai
            idreigai in haiþjom tulgiþos usbidand. Kunþ izwis ist hvan sijaina
            leihta Rumone sarwa: frumein jan-ni qiþa wundufnjai, ak silbin
            stubjau kaurjanda, miþþanei in tewai gagaggand jah hansos <in>
            skildubaurg gawidand. Jus haifstjaiþ gastoþaim ahmam swe biuhtai,
            fra-h-kunnandans harja ize Allanans dissitiþ, in Wisugutans
            atdriusiþ. Þaruh uns adrata sigis sokjan <skuld ist>, þarei sik
            habaiþ waihjo. Afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom suns liþjus afsliupand,
            nih mag standan leik þammei baina usnimis. Urreisaina ahmans, moþs
            swikunþs ufarwahsjai. Nu mitonins, Huneis, nu wepna uslukiþ: jabai
            gawundoþs hvas – andastaþjis dauþu gatilo, aiþþau hails – fijande
            slauhtais gasoþjaidau. Þans sigizwairþjans ni ainohun arhvazno
            undrinniþ, þans dauþubljans jah in rimisa waiwaurds gadrauseiþ. Bi
            spedistin duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa managaim þiudom hroþeigans
            ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais swegniþai gamanwidedi? Þaþroþ-
            þan hvas Aujo wig þaim airizam unsaraim gabairhtida þana swa laggos
            aldins galukanan fulginana? Hvas nauh þaim wepnalausam gakunnan
            gatawida þans gawepnodans? Andawleizn Hune ni mahtedun bairan
            galisanai alamans. Ik ni afairzjada bi þata habando gadaban: her
            akrs ist þanei unsis swa managos ansteis gahaihaitun. Fruma in
            andastaþi spiuta gawairpa. Jabai hvas magi <at> Attilin weihandin
            gahveilain <sis> haban, gafulhans ist.

            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

            tantarum = swalaudaizo "so great" instead of swa managaizo "so
            many". The Latin word can mean both, but since only Lat. tot is used
            for "so many" throughout the fragment we may probably argue that
            here Jordanes (Attila) emphasized the "greatness" (numerical value
            of each), not just plain number, of the nations that had been
            conquered by the Huns up to the day of the Catalaunic battle.

            autem "indeed" = raihtis (was: sweþauh). Not that I can sufficiently
            support this choice with arguments. I just feel this sounds better.

            ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when
            (re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun",
            Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I
            didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for translating
            Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking
            such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military lexicon
            so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better is
            in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins
            (ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and
            other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in the
            Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".

            nota uobis sunt "you know", lit. [these things (neuter plural)] are
            familiar to you" = kunþ izwis ist (singular) replacing kunþa izwis
            sind (plural). I asked the question whether this plural was good
            Latin or an error on a mailing list dedicated to Latin studies
            (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/) and I was told that
            it is certainly wrong here and that most likely Jordanes was
            thinking about the word Lat. arma "arms" (equally neuter plural)
            following in the subordinate clause. Well, for Lat. arma my Gothic
            has sarwa, neuer plural as well, and one could be inclined to keep
            this (erroneous) peculiarity (plural kunþa izwis sind) as a trait of
            Jordanes' authorship. Still, good Gothic would demand singular, like
            Latin. (see e.g. Eph. 3:5).

            et acies testudineque conectunt = jah hansos <in> skildubaurg
            gawidand. Undoubtedly the most obscure place in the whole fragment.
            Mierow has it as "and forming in one line with locked shields".
            Apart from asking whether Go. hansa (actually "band of
            warriors", "cohort") is good enough to render Lat. acies the form
            testudineque seems to be quite out of sense here. My Gothic is
            literally "and [they] join their cohorts together in a "fortress of
            shields". Using -baurgs also helps me avoid addressing the question
            what case – dative or accusative – must be put in here ;-)

            se continet "finds itself" = sik habaiþ (instead of sik gahabaiþ).
            The latter seems to have a different attested meaning ("to obstain").

            abscisa autem neruis mox membra relabuntur (Mierow's) "when the
            sinews are cut the limbs soon relax" = afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom
            suns liþjus afsliupand. In the draft version I translated this
            thinking that abscisa autem neruis must be absolute dative that
            needs correction => abscisis autem neruis. Jordanes often makes
            mistakes in his Latin, after all. But then I was told by experts
            that abscisa in fact refers to membra, so it's the "limbs" which
            are "cut off the sinews", literally. Hence the new Gothic reading.

            postremo "finally" = bi spedistin (was: bi aftumin). The first is
            factually attested in Mc. 16:14.

            cur fortuna Hunnos tot gentium uictores adseret, nisi ad certaminis
            huius gaudia praeparasset? (Mierow's) "why should Fortune have made
            the Huns victorious over so many nations, unless it were to prepare
            them for the joy of this conflict?" = duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa
            managaim þiudom hroþeigans ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais
            swegniþai gamanwidedi? As you see I chose a descriptional way of
            saying this, namely "why should Wodan have caused the Huns to
            triumph over so many nations..." (see the same turn of speech in 2
            Cor. 2:14), instead of trying to literally imitate Latin. Some may
            wonder why it's Wodan who helps the Huns and even (in the next
            sentence) opens them the way into Oium, but this as I said
            is "interpretatio Gothica", much like Roman authors (Julius Caesar,
            Tacitus) who described the ancient Germani worshipping Mercurius,
            Iuppiter, Mars etc implying they were honored under their Germanic
            names, i.e. *Wodanaz, *Þunraz, *Teiwaz respectively ("interpretatio
            Romana"). Whenever a Goth was in need of referring to a Hunnish god
            of battle and war fortune, Wodan was the most likely candidate to be
            mentioned, if the person wanted to avoid long explanations and
            awkwardly sounding foreign names. There was such a thing as "pagan
            religious isomorphism", after all (hope I got the right word). And,
            of course, I am not going to raise again the debate whether the
            historical Goths knew the name of Wodan or not. If someone knows a
            better (and more verifiable) option, let it be said here.

            ad certaminis huius gaudia "for the joys of this battle" = du þizos
            haifstais swegniþai (was: fahedai). Swegniþa (Gr. AGALLIASIS) as
            well as the corresponding verb swegnjan (AGALLIASQAI, BRABEUEIN)
            seem to pertain more to "triumph" than faheþs, faginon which refer
            to "joy" in general.

            Well, that's all for now. If there are no objections on the part of
            other listmembers, could we have this text put into the files
            section of Gothic-L?

            Ualarauans
          • Frederick Louis Scoggins
            ... Dear Ualarauans, After this short message I shall unsubscribe from the Gothic newsletter. First you are obviously deceived into thinking that the entire
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              ualarauans wrote:
              >
              > Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out
              > here ;-).
              >
              > Having revised the text over and over again I've arrived at the
              > following version. All major emendations are listed below. The words
              > in <...> have no matches in the Latin original but seem to be rather
              > indispensable in Gothic. Your recommendations are, as before,
              > welcome.
              >
              > (Getica 202-206 Gothice uersa)
              >
              > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              >
              > [Attila qaþ:]
              >
              > Afar sigiza swalaudaizo þiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiþ,
              > gatamidana, until domidedjau <izwis> swaswe unweisans waihtais
              > waurdam inwagjan. Sokjai þata andizuh niujis drauhtins aiþþau
              > unfraisans harjis. Nih mis binauht ist hva gamainjata rodjan, nih
              > izwis skuld ist hausjan. Hva raihtis anþar jus nibai militon biuhtai
              > <sijuþ>? Aiþþau hva gumin swinþamma woþizo þau fraweit handau
              > sokjan? Mikila giba <ist> at wistai ahmans fragildis sadans briggan.
              > Anaqimaima nu andastaþi mundrai: balþizans sind sinteino þaiei
              > farand du harjon. Gaqumanaim frakunneiþ missaleikaim þiudom: bandwo
              > faurhteins ist gamainduþai driugan. Sai faura ufarruna unsaramma
              > agisa ju dishabanda, hlaina sokjand, haugans nimand jah <in> seiþjai
              > idreigai in haiþjom tulgiþos usbidand. Kunþ izwis ist hvan sijaina
              > leihta Rumone sarwa: frumein jan-ni qiþa wundufnjai, ak silbin
              > stubjau kaurjanda, miþþanei in tewai gagaggand jah hansos <in>
              > skildubaurg gawidand. Jus haifstjaiþ gastoþaim ahmam swe biuhtai,
              > fra-h-kunnandans harja ize Allanans dissitiþ, in Wisugutans
              > atdriusiþ. Þaruh uns adrata sigis sokjan <skuld ist>, þarei sik
              > habaiþ waihjo. Afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom suns liþjus afsliupand,
              > nih mag standan leik þammei baina usnimis. Urreisaina ahmans, moþs
              > swikunþs ufarwahsjai. Nu mitonins, Huneis, nu wepna uslukiþ: jabai
              > gawundoþs hvas – andastaþjis dauþu gatilo, aiþþau hails – fijande
              > slauhtais gasoþjaidau. Þans sigizwairþjans ni ainohun arhvazno
              > undrinniþ, þans dauþubljans jah in rimisa waiwaurds gadrauseiþ. Bi
              > spedistin duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa managaim þiudom hroþeigans
              > ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais swegniþai gamanwidedi? Þaþroþ-
              > þan hvas Aujo wig þaim airizam unsaraim gabairhtida þana swa laggos
              > aldins galukanan fulginana? Hvas nauh þaim wepnalausam gakunnan
              > gatawida þans gawepnodans? Andawleizn Hune ni mahtedun bairan
              > galisanai alamans. Ik ni afairzjada bi þata habando gadaban: her
              > akrs ist þanei unsis swa managos ansteis gahaihaitun. Fruma in
              > andastaþi spiuta gawairpa. Jabai hvas magi <at> Attilin weihandin
              > gahveilain <sis> haban, gafulhans ist.
              >
              > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              >
              > tantarum = swalaudaizo "so great" instead of swa managaizo "so
              > many". The Latin word can mean both, but since only Lat. tot is used
              > for "so many" throughout the fragment we may probably argue that
              > here Jordanes (Attila) emphasized the "greatness" (numerical value
              > of each), not just plain number, of the nations that had been
              > conquered by the Huns up to the day of the Catalaunic battle.
              >
              > autem "indeed" = raihtis (was: sweþauh). Not that I can sufficiently
              > support this choice with arguments. I just feel this sounds better.
              >
              > ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when
              > (re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun",
              > Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I
              > didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for translating
              > Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking
              > such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military lexicon
              > so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better is
              > in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins
              > (ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and
              > other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in the
              > Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".
              >
              > nota uobis sunt "you know", lit. [these things (neuter plural)] are
              > familiar to you" = kunþ izwis ist (singular) replacing kunþa izwis
              > sind (plural). I asked the question whether this plural was good
              > Latin or an error on a mailing list dedicated to Latin studies
              > (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/
              > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/>) and I was told that
              > it is certainly wrong here and that most likely Jordanes was
              > thinking about the word Lat. arma "arms" (equally neuter plural)
              > following in the subordinate clause. Well, for Lat. arma my Gothic
              > has sarwa, neuer plural as well, and one could be inclined to keep
              > this (erroneous) peculiarity (plural kunþa izwis sind) as a trait of
              > Jordanes' authorship. Still, good Gothic would demand singular, like
              > Latin. (see e.g. Eph. 3:5).
              >
              > et acies testudineque conectunt = jah hansos <in> skildubaurg
              > gawidand. Undoubtedly the most obscure place in the whole fragment.
              > Mierow has it as "and forming in one line with locked shields".
              > Apart from asking whether Go. hansa (actually "band of
              > warriors", "cohort") is good enough to render Lat. acies the form
              > testudineque seems to be quite out of sense here. My Gothic is
              > literally "and [they] join their cohorts together in a "fortress of
              > shields". Using -baurgs also helps me avoid addressing the question
              > what case – dative or accusative – must be put in here ;-)
              >
              > se continet "finds itself" = sik habaiþ (instead of sik gahabaiþ).
              > The latter seems to have a different attested meaning ("to obstain").
              >
              > abscisa autem neruis mox membra relabuntur (Mierow's) "when the
              > sinews are cut the limbs soon relax" = afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom
              > suns liþjus afsliupand. In the draft version I translated this
              > thinking that abscisa autem neruis must be absolute dative that
              > needs correction => abscisis autem neruis. Jordanes often makes
              > mistakes in his Latin, after all. But then I was told by experts
              > that abscisa in fact refers to membra, so it's the "limbs" which
              > are "cut off the sinews", literally. Hence the new Gothic reading.
              >
              > postremo "finally" = bi spedistin (was: bi aftumin). The first is
              > factually attested in Mc. 16:14.
              >
              > cur fortuna Hunnos tot gentium uictores adseret, nisi ad certaminis
              > huius gaudia praeparasset? (Mierow's) "why should Fortune have made
              > the Huns victorious over so many nations, unless it were to prepare
              > them for the joy of this conflict?" = duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa
              > managaim þiudom hroþeigans ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais
              > swegniþai gamanwidedi? As you see I chose a descriptional way of
              > saying this, namely "why should Wodan have caused the Huns to
              > triumph over so many nations..." (see the same turn of speech in 2
              > Cor. 2:14), instead of trying to literally imitate Latin. Some may
              > wonder why it's Wodan who helps the Huns and even (in the next
              > sentence) opens them the way into Oium, but this as I said
              > is "interpretatio Gothica", much like Roman authors (Julius Caesar,
              > Tacitus) who described the ancient Germani worshipping Mercurius,
              > Iuppiter, Mars etc implying they were honored under their Germanic
              > names, i.e. *Wodanaz, *Þunraz, *Teiwaz respectively ("interpretatio
              > Romana"). Whenever a Goth was in need of referring to a Hunnish god
              > of battle and war fortune, Wodan was the most likely candidate to be
              > mentioned, if the person wanted to avoid long explanations and
              > awkwardly sounding foreign names. There was such a thing as "pagan
              > religious isomorphism", after all (hope I got the right word). And,
              > of course, I am not going to raise again the debate whether the
              > historical Goths knew the name of Wodan or not. If someone knows a
              > better (and more verifiable) option, let it be said here.
              >
              > ad certaminis huius gaudia "for the joys of this battle" = du þizos
              > haifstais swegniþai (was: fahedai). Swegniþa (Gr. AGALLIASIS) as
              > well as the corresponding verb swegnjan (AGALLIASQAI, BRABEUEIN)
              > seem to pertain more to "triumph" than faheþs, faginon which refer
              > to "joy" in general.
              >
              > Well, that's all for now. If there are no objections on the part of
              > other listmembers, could we have this text put into the files
              > section of Gothic-L?
              >
              > Ualarauans
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: 9/2/2007 4:32 PM
              >
              Dear Ualarauans,

              After this short message I shall unsubscribe from the Gothic newsletter.
              First you are obviously deceived into thinking that the entire writtings
              of Jordanes are accurate instead of the cut and paste propaganda of a
              third rate political and religious hack who tried to deceive readers
              into accepting it as the condensed work of a lost Roman historian.
              Jordanes may be a source but he ranks somewhat below Goering and has the
              same glorious interpretation of Germanic history as the Nazis had. If I
              were to discover that you had facist inclinations it would not surprise
              me in the least. In your favor of course is your language skills, they
              appear admirable! Please enjoy your past time by yourself...

              Goodbye,

              Frederick Louis Scoggins
            • Francisc Czobor
              Dear Frederick, it s your right to unsubscribe whenever you wish, but please don t judge Ualarauans that way. Some members of this Gothi-L (including me)
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Frederick,

                it's your right to unsubscribe whenever you wish, but please don't
                judge Ualarauans that way. Some members of this Gothi-L (including
                me) tried, several years ago, to translate in Gothic the beginning
                section of "Getica". We didn't regard this as history, but rather as
                a sort of literary work-up of Gothic mythology. "Getica" doesn't
                represent for us (or for me at least) a reliable source for Gothic
                history, but rather a piece of Gothic literature written in Latin.
                Therefore, it looks more appropriate to test our skills to translate
                into Gothic on a fragment of "Getica" than, let's say, on
                the "Aeneid".

                Francisc


                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Frederick Louis Scoggins
                <scoggins3375@...> wrote:
                >
                > ualarauans wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out
                > > here ;-).
                > >
                > > Having revised the text over and over again I've arrived at the
                > > following version. All major emendations are listed below. The
                words
                > > in <...> have no matches in the Latin original but seem to be
                rather
                > > indispensable in Gothic. Your recommendations are, as before,
                > > welcome.
                > >
                > > (Getica 202-206 Gothice uersa)
                > >
                > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                > >
                > > [Attila qaþ:]
                > >
                > > Afar sigiza swalaudaizo þiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiþ,
                > > gatamidana, until domidedjau <izwis> swaswe unweisans waihtais
                > > waurdam inwagjan. Sokjai þata andizuh niujis drauhtins aiþþau
                > > unfraisans harjis. Nih mis binauht ist hva gamainjata rodjan, nih
                > > izwis skuld ist hausjan. Hva raihtis anþar jus nibai militon
                biuhtai
                > > <sijuþ>? Aiþþau hva gumin swinþamma woþizo þau fraweit handau
                > > sokjan? Mikila giba <ist> at wistai ahmans fragildis sadans
                briggan.
                > > Anaqimaima nu andastaþi mundrai: balþizans sind sinteino þaiei
                > > farand du harjon. Gaqumanaim frakunneiþ missaleikaim þiudom:
                bandwo
                > > faurhteins ist gamainduþai driugan. Sai faura ufarruna unsaramma
                > > agisa ju dishabanda, hlaina sokjand, haugans nimand jah <in>
                seiþjai
                > > idreigai in haiþjom tulgiþos usbidand. Kunþ izwis ist hvan sijaina
                > > leihta Rumone sarwa: frumein jan-ni qiþa wundufnjai, ak silbin
                > > stubjau kaurjanda, miþþanei in tewai gagaggand jah hansos <in>
                > > skildubaurg gawidand. Jus haifstjaiþ gastoþaim ahmam swe biuhtai,
                > > fra-h-kunnandans harja ize Allanans dissitiþ, in Wisugutans
                > > atdriusiþ. Þaruh uns adrata sigis sokjan <skuld ist>, þarei sik
                > > habaiþ waihjo. Afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom suns liþjus afsliupand,
                > > nih mag standan leik þammei baina usnimis. Urreisaina ahmans, moþs
                > > swikunþs ufarwahsjai. Nu mitonins, Huneis, nu wepna uslukiþ: jabai
                > > gawundoþs hvas – andastaþjis dauþu gatilo, aiþþau hails – fijande
                > > slauhtais gasoþjaidau. Þans sigizwairþjans ni ainohun arhvazno
                > > undrinniþ, þans dauþubljans jah in rimisa waiwaurds gadrauseiþ. Bi
                > > spedistin duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa managaim þiudom hroþeigans
                > > ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais swegniþai gamanwidedi?
                Þaþroþ-
                > > þan hvas Aujo wig þaim airizam unsaraim gabairhtida þana swa
                laggos
                > > aldins galukanan fulginana? Hvas nauh þaim wepnalausam gakunnan
                > > gatawida þans gawepnodans? Andawleizn Hune ni mahtedun bairan
                > > galisanai alamans. Ik ni afairzjada bi þata habando gadaban: her
                > > akrs ist þanei unsis swa managos ansteis gahaihaitun. Fruma in
                > > andastaþi spiuta gawairpa. Jabai hvas magi <at> Attilin weihandin
                > > gahveilain <sis> haban, gafulhans ist.
                > >
                > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                > >
                > > tantarum = swalaudaizo "so great" instead of swa managaizo "so
                > > many". The Latin word can mean both, but since only Lat. tot is
                used
                > > for "so many" throughout the fragment we may probably argue that
                > > here Jordanes (Attila) emphasized the "greatness" (numerical value
                > > of each), not just plain number, of the nations that had been
                > > conquered by the Huns up to the day of the Catalaunic battle.
                > >
                > > autem "indeed" = raihtis (was: sweþauh). Not that I can
                sufficiently
                > > support this choice with arguments. I just feel this sounds
                better.
                > >
                > > ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when
                > > (re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun",
                > > Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I
                > > didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for
                translating
                > > Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking
                > > such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military
                lexicon
                > > so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better
                is
                > > in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins
                > > (ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and
                > > other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in
                the
                > > Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".
                > >
                > > nota uobis sunt "you know", lit. [these things (neuter plural)]
                are
                > > familiar to you" = kunþ izwis ist (singular) replacing kunþa izwis
                > > sind (plural). I asked the question whether this plural was good
                > > Latin or an error on a mailing list dedicated to Latin studies
                > > (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/
                > > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/>) and I was told
                that
                > > it is certainly wrong here and that most likely Jordanes was
                > > thinking about the word Lat. arma "arms" (equally neuter plural)
                > > following in the subordinate clause. Well, for Lat. arma my Gothic
                > > has sarwa, neuer plural as well, and one could be inclined to keep
                > > this (erroneous) peculiarity (plural kunþa izwis sind) as a trait
                of
                > > Jordanes' authorship. Still, good Gothic would demand singular,
                like
                > > Latin. (see e.g. Eph. 3:5).
                > >
                > > et acies testudineque conectunt = jah hansos <in> skildubaurg
                > > gawidand. Undoubtedly the most obscure place in the whole
                fragment.
                > > Mierow has it as "and forming in one line with locked shields".
                > > Apart from asking whether Go. hansa (actually "band of
                > > warriors", "cohort") is good enough to render Lat. acies the form
                > > testudineque seems to be quite out of sense here. My Gothic is
                > > literally "and [they] join their cohorts together in a "fortress
                of
                > > shields". Using -baurgs also helps me avoid addressing the
                question
                > > what case – dative or accusative – must be put in here ;-)
                > >
                > > se continet "finds itself" = sik habaiþ (instead of sik gahabaiþ).
                > > The latter seems to have a different attested meaning ("to
                obstain").
                > >
                > > abscisa autem neruis mox membra relabuntur (Mierow's) "when the
                > > sinews are cut the limbs soon relax" = afmaitanai þan <af> sinwom
                > > suns liþjus afsliupand. In the draft version I translated this
                > > thinking that abscisa autem neruis must be absolute dative that
                > > needs correction => abscisis autem neruis. Jordanes often makes
                > > mistakes in his Latin, after all. But then I was told by experts
                > > that abscisa in fact refers to membra, so it's the "limbs" which
                > > are "cut off the sinews", literally. Hence the new Gothic reading.
                > >
                > > postremo "finally" = bi spedistin (was: bi aftumin). The first is
                > > factually attested in Mc. 16:14.
                > >
                > > cur fortuna Hunnos tot gentium uictores adseret, nisi ad
                certaminis
                > > huius gaudia praeparasset? (Mierow's) "why should Fortune have
                made
                > > the Huns victorious over so many nations, unless it were to
                prepare
                > > them for the joy of this conflict?" = duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa
                > > managaim þiudom hroþeigans ustaiknida, nibai du þizos haifstais
                > > swegniþai gamanwidedi? As you see I chose a descriptional way of
                > > saying this, namely "why should Wodan have caused the Huns to
                > > triumph over so many nations..." (see the same turn of speech in 2
                > > Cor. 2:14), instead of trying to literally imitate Latin. Some may
                > > wonder why it's Wodan who helps the Huns and even (in the next
                > > sentence) opens them the way into Oium, but this as I said
                > > is "interpretatio Gothica", much like Roman authors (Julius
                Caesar,
                > > Tacitus) who described the ancient Germani worshipping Mercurius,
                > > Iuppiter, Mars etc implying they were honored under their Germanic
                > > names, i.e. *Wodanaz, *Þunraz, *Teiwaz respectively
                ("interpretatio
                > > Romana"). Whenever a Goth was in need of referring to a Hunnish
                god
                > > of battle and war fortune, Wodan was the most likely candidate to
                be
                > > mentioned, if the person wanted to avoid long explanations and
                > > awkwardly sounding foreign names. There was such a thing as "pagan
                > > religious isomorphism", after all (hope I got the right word).
                And,
                > > of course, I am not going to raise again the debate whether the
                > > historical Goths knew the name of Wodan or not. If someone knows a
                > > better (and more verifiable) option, let it be said here.
                > >
                > > ad certaminis huius gaudia "for the joys of this battle" = du
                þizos
                > > haifstais swegniþai (was: fahedai). Swegniþa (Gr. AGALLIASIS) as
                > > well as the corresponding verb swegnjan (AGALLIASQAI, BRABEUEIN)
                > > seem to pertain more to "triumph" than faheþs, faginon which refer
                > > to "joy" in general.
                > >
                > > Well, that's all for now. If there are no objections on the part
                of
                > > other listmembers, could we have this text put into the files
                > > section of Gothic-L?
                > >
                > > Ualarauans
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                ------
                > >
                > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date:
                9/2/2007 4:32 PM
                > >
                > Dear Ualarauans,
                >
                > After this short message I shall unsubscribe from the Gothic
                newsletter.
                > First you are obviously deceived into thinking that the entire
                writtings
                > of Jordanes are accurate instead of the cut and paste propaganda of
                a
                > third rate political and religious hack who tried to deceive
                readers
                > into accepting it as the condensed work of a lost Roman historian.
                > Jordanes may be a source but he ranks somewhat below Goering and
                has the
                > same glorious interpretation of Germanic history as the Nazis had.
                If I
                > were to discover that you had facist inclinations it would not
                surprise
                > me in the least. In your favor of course is your language skills,
                they
                > appear admirable! Please enjoy your past time by yourself...
                >
                > Goodbye,
                >
                > Frederick Louis Scoggins
                >
              • Michael Erwin
                ... I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I m not sure whether the latter two words are semantically
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  On Sep 2, 2007, at 12:14 AM, ualarauans wrote:
                  > ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when
                  > (re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun",
                  > Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I
                  > didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for translating
                  > Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking
                  > such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military lexicon
                  > so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better is
                  > in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins
                  > (ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and
                  > other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in the
                  > Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".
                  I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of
                  andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I'm not sure whether the latter two
                  words are semantically related or just look that way.

                  Of course it's traditional to practice Gothic by translating the
                  bible, but it's not that uncommon to try other sources. I've tried
                  translating labor songs, and I'm wondering what sort of pseudo-
                  historical theory could be read into that...
                • ualarauans
                  ... two ... Andastaþjis opponent , enemy and andstandan to oppose , to stand against are certainly related, both etymologically and semantically. Look
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of
                    > andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I'm not sure whether the latter
                    two
                    > words are semantically related or just look that way.

                    Andastaþjis "opponent", "enemy" and andstandan "to oppose", "to
                    stand against" are certainly related, both etymologically and
                    semantically. Look at p.t. stoþ "[I, he, she, it] stood" dropping
                    the nasal too.

                    > Of course it's traditional to practice Gothic by translating the
                    > bible, but it's not that uncommon to try other sources. I've tried
                    > translating labor songs, and I'm wondering what sort of pseudo-
                    > historical theory could be read into that...

                    I suggest you just have to try and see what you'll get in comments ;-
                    ). Seriously speaking, it would be great if people were more eager
                    to share their Gothic compositions with the group. I'm sure many of
                    us have some.

                    Ualarauans
                  • OSCAR HERRERA
                    getica looks pretty much like gothic to me.......whats up with fredric? ... two ... Andastaþjis opponent , enemy and andstandan to oppose , to stand
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      getica looks pretty much like gothic to me.......whats up with fredric?

                      ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of
                      > andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I'm not sure whether the latter
                      two
                      > words are semantically related or just look that way.

                      Andastaþjis "opponent", "enemy" and andstandan "to oppose", "to
                      stand against" are certainly related, both etymologically and
                      semantically. Look at p.t. stoþ "[I, he, she, it] stood" dropping
                      the nasal too.

                      > Of course it's traditional to practice Gothic by translating the
                      > bible, but it's not that uncommon to try other sources. I've tried
                      > translating labor songs, and I'm wondering what sort of pseudo-
                      > historical theory could be read into that...

                      I suggest you just have to try and see what you'll get in comments ;-
                      ). Seriously speaking, it would be great if people were more eager
                      to share their Gothic compositions with the group. I'm sure many of
                      us have some.

                      Ualarauans






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ualarauans
                      ... fredric? Oscar, I must say that your way to express yourself is rather mysterious at times. Not long ago you told us that assimilation and extermination
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 4, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > getica looks pretty much like gothic to me.......whats up with
                        fredric?

                        Oscar, I must say that your way to express yourself is rather
                        mysterious at times. Not long ago you told us that "assimilation and
                        extermination are foolhardy words" reacting on my post where I spoke
                        of the final fates of the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths in Spain and
                        Italy respectively. I asked you then to explain why you think so,
                        but you didn't. OK, let it be. Now you're telling that "getica looks
                        pretty much like gothic to me". Should it be understood so that you
                        find Latin of Getica as incomprehensible as Gothic, or that you
                        think it is a genuine source for the Gothic history, or that in your
                        opinion it was originally written in Gothic or by Goths, or what
                        else? Secondly, whom do you referring to as Fredric (I suggest you
                        capitalize the initial letters of the listmemvers' personal names,
                        at the very least)? I may try to guess and think of either Fredrik
                        (gadrauhts) or Frederick L. Scoggins. In both cases I don't
                        know "what's up" with them. What do you mean, actually?

                        Ualarauans

                        > ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote: --- In
                        > gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of
                        > > andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I'm not sure whether the latter
                        > two
                        > > words are semantically related or just look that way.
                        >
                        > Andastaþjis "opponent", "enemy" and andstandan "to oppose", "to
                        > stand against" are certainly related, both etymologically and
                        > semantically. Look at p.t. stoþ "[I, he, she, it] stood" dropping
                        > the nasal too.
                        >
                        > > Of course it's traditional to practice Gothic by translating the
                        > > bible, but it's not that uncommon to try other sources. I've
                        tried
                        > > translating labor songs, and I'm wondering what sort of pseudo-
                        > > historical theory could be read into that...
                        >
                        > I suggest you just have to try and see what you'll get in
                        comments ;-
                        > ). Seriously speaking, it would be great if people were more eager
                        > to share their Gothic compositions with the group. I'm sure many of
                        > us have some.
                        >
                        > Ualarauans
                      • OSCAR HERRERA
                        your sayin what that getica is gothic or latin.....i said your translation looked like gothic....im not following you with this one.....and i was referring to
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 4, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          your sayin what that getica is gothic or latin.....i said your translation looked like gothic....im not following you with this one.....and i was referring to fredric scoggins.....????

                          ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > getica looks pretty much like gothic to me.......whats up with
                          fredric?

                          Oscar, I must say that your way to express yourself is rather
                          mysterious at times. Not long ago you told us that "assimilation and
                          extermination are foolhardy words" reacting on my post where I spoke
                          of the final fates of the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths in Spain and
                          Italy respectively. I asked you then to explain why you think so,
                          but you didn't. OK, let it be. Now you're telling that "getica looks
                          pretty much like gothic to me". Should it be understood so that you
                          find Latin of Getica as incomprehensible as Gothic, or that you
                          think it is a genuine source for the Gothic history, or that in your
                          opinion it was originally written in Gothic or by Goths, or what
                          else? Secondly, whom do you referring to as Fredric (I suggest you
                          capitalize the initial letters of the listmemvers' personal names,
                          at the very least)? I may try to guess and think of either Fredrik
                          (gadrauhts) or Frederick L. Scoggins. In both cases I don't
                          know "what's up" with them. What do you mean, actually?

                          Ualarauans

                          > ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote: --- In
                          > gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I would mention faura *andaruna or faura *andruna, thinking of
                          > > andastaþjis and andstandjan, but I'm not sure whether the latter
                          > two
                          > > words are semantically related or just look that way.
                          >
                          > Andastaþjis "opponent", "enemy" and andstandan "to oppose", "to
                          > stand against" are certainly related, both etymologically and
                          > semantically. Look at p.t. stoþ "[I, he, she, it] stood" dropping
                          > the nasal too.
                          >
                          > > Of course it's traditional to practice Gothic by translating the
                          > > bible, but it's not that uncommon to try other sources. I've
                          tried
                          > > translating labor songs, and I'm wondering what sort of pseudo-
                          > > historical theory could be read into that...
                          >
                          > I suggest you just have to try and see what you'll get in
                          comments ;-
                          > ). Seriously speaking, it would be great if people were more eager
                          > to share their Gothic compositions with the group. I'm sure many of
                          > us have some.
                          >
                          > Ualarauans






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • ualarauans
                          Corrigendum Getica 206: Meotidarum iter [...] tot saeculis clausum secretum. Charles C. Mierow s translation: [...] the path through the Maeotian swamp, for
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 5, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Corrigendum

                            Getica 206: Meotidarum iter [...] tot saeculis clausum secretum.

                            Charles C. Mierow's translation: "[...] the path through the Maeotian
                            swamp, for so many ages a closed secret".

                            Gothic version: "Aujo wig [...] þana swa laggos aldins galukanan
                            fulginana" (aping the Latin phrase).

                            I think it's better to use here the attested metaphor Go. in fulhsnja
                            (Gr. EN TW KRUPTW, EN TW KRUFAIW) "in secret" (Mt. 6:4, 18).

                            Thus the new reading is: "Aujo wig [...] þana swa laggos aldins
                            galukanan in fulhsnja".

                            Yours,

                            Ualarauans
                          • ualarauans
                            Translating Jordanes back into Gothic I stumbled over the word Lat. cerua she-deer , doe (Getica 123-4). It s the fragment where the legend is told of a
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 26, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Translating Jordanes "back into Gothic" I stumbled over the word
                              Lat. cerua "she-deer", "doe" (Getica 123-4). It's the fragment where
                              the legend is told of a doe leading Hunnish hunters the way over the
                              Maeotic swamp. I could find several options of reconstructing the
                              word for this animal based on evidence of the sister languages.
                              These are:

                              *algs M.-i "elk" (ON elgr, OE eolh (?), but OHG el(a)ho M.-an).
                              However, "elk" is not "deer", strictly spoken. The feminine form
                              could probably be *algini F.-jo or maybe just algs F.-i.

                              *haíruts M.-a "deer" (ON hjörtr, OE heor(o)t, OHG hiruz). Seems OK
                              semantically, but I am at a total loss with probable feminine.
                              *hairuti F.-jo?

                              *hráins M.-a "reindeer" (ON hreinn, OE hrân). Same is here. Or maybe
                              one could use *hrainadius N.-a covering both sexes.

                              Now as I was in any case compelled to resort to a reconstruction,
                              I thought of another possibility. I speculated that the word (and
                              maybe the plot of the story as well) could have been taken by the
                              Goths from a non-Germanic language spoken in the area where the
                              described event took place. Newcomers are usually apt to borrow
                              words for local fauna from natives of the landscape, after all.
                              Being not a biologist I can't judge whether the deer of the South
                              Russian steppes did to any significant extent differ from the deer
                              met in places of the Gothic Urheimat (wherever this have been
                              situated). If it really did, then that's an argument for the
                              loanword suggestion.

                              In my opinion, the donor-language in question could have been
                              Sarmatian or Alanic, i. e. Northeastern Iranian. The word is
                              OIr. *sâka-, still living in Ossetic sag "hart". One of the major
                              Scythian tribes, namely the Sacae, bore this name as their ethnonym
                              (so Abaev 1949, rejected by Szemerenyi 1980). The voicing of
                              intervocalic k > g occured in Alanic ca. 2nd – 3rd centuries CE
                              (Abaev o. c.), while the final vowels were still kept intact. This
                              corresponds to the time of the presence of the Goths in the Black
                              Sea region. The resulting Gothic form could have been *saga M.-an
                              with the meaning "(Scythian steppe) deer". Hence the feminine
                              counterpart is *sago F.-on (in Ossetic, they say syl-sag,
                              lit. "female deer").

                              Possible objection: the first /a/ in presumed Alanic *saga (> Oss.
                              sag) must have been a long â. The question is whether the phonetic
                              system of Gothic did already have the long â too, and, if not, what
                              sound it could have substituted for it. Proto-Germanic did in fact
                              turn all â's into ô's, and it involved loanwords too. Examples are
                              PCelt. Dânuvios > Go. Dônawi, Lat. Rômânus > Go. Rumôns. But later,
                              Gothic developed an â of its own, in words like brâhta, þâhta etc
                              where the -âh- is from earlier -anh-. It seems to have been spoken
                              without nasalization in the "historical time" (Braune-Helm 1952).
                              Later loans from Greek and Latin display Gothic /a/ standing for the
                              long vowel: fâskja, pâska (Streitberg 1920). The exact dating of the
                              loss of the nasalization however is not known. Also, some dialects
                              of Gothic might have been keeping the nasalized pronunciation longer
                              than others. In which case the old conventional ô could still have
                              been used to render foreign â.

                              Ualarauans
                            • llama_nom
                              Hey there, Ualarauans, I see I ve got a bit of catching up reading recent posts! In the meantime, another Germanic word for deer could be reconstructed as
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 29, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hey there, Ualarauans,

                                I see I've got a bit of catching up reading recent posts! In the
                                meantime, another Germanic word for "deer" could be reconstructed as

                                'raiha' M. -an. (OE 'rá', earlier 'ráha'; OE 'ráh-déor'; ON 'rábukkr'
                                "roe-buck", OHG rêh, rêch - but 'rêho' "billy goat").
                                'raih(j)o', F. -on. (OE 'ræ:ge', G 'Rehe' - but OHG 'rêia'"she-goat";
                                ON 'rá').

                                Under Rehe, Grimm lists the following synonyms: ricke, rehe, hille, geisz.

                                When I was working on that poem [
                                http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm ], I didn't realise (or else
                                had forgotten) that the deer was female in Jordanes. I referred to it
                                as 'hairuts', 'raiha' and less specifically 'dius' "animal". So I
                                might have to revise that. Or just call it an alternative tradition...

                                > *haíruts M.-a "deer" (ON hjörtr, OE heor(o)t, OHG hiruz). Seems OK
                                > semantically, but I am at a total loss with probable feminine.
                                > *hairuti F.-jo?

                                It would be handy for my alliteration if we could find one. I wonder
                                what Grimm's 'hille' comes from.

                                > Possible objection: the first /a/ in presumed Alanic *saga (> Oss.
                                > sag) must have been a long â. The question is whether the phonetic
                                > system of Gothic did already have the long â too, and, if not, what
                                > sound it could have substituted for it. Proto-Germanic did in fact
                                > turn all â's into ô's, and it involved loanwords too. Examples are
                                > PCelt. Dânuvios > Go. Dônawi, Lat. Rômânus > Go. Rumôns. But later,
                                > Gothic developed an â of its own, in words like brâhta, þâhta etc
                                > where the -âh- is from earlier -anh-. It seems to have been spoken
                                > without nasalization in the "historical time" (Braune-Helm 1952).
                                > Later loans from Greek and Latin display Gothic /a/ standing for the
                                > long vowel: fâskja, pâska (Streitberg 1920). The exact dating of the
                                > loss of the nasalization however is not known. Also, some dialects
                                > of Gothic might have been keeping the nasalized pronunciation longer
                                > than others. In which case the old conventional ô could still have
                                > been used to render foreign â.

                                The change /a:/ to /o:/ is very early, already in complete in
                                Proto-Germanic. The loss of /n/ before /h/ and compensatory
                                lengthening is also shared by all branches of Germanic, so unless more
                                information comes to light, I'd guess Alanic /a:/ would find its
                                closest match in Gothic /a:/ (whether nasalised or not).

                                LN
                              • ualarauans
                                Hi Lama, ... as ... ON rábukkr ... goat ; ... hille, geisz. ... else ... to it ... tradition... There s actually some evidence for an alternative tradition.
                                Message 15 of 29 , Sep 29, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Lama,

                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hey there, Ualarauans,
                                  >
                                  > I see I've got a bit of catching up reading recent posts! In the
                                  > meantime, another Germanic word for "deer" could be reconstructed
                                  as
                                  >
                                  > 'raiha' M. -an. (OE 'rá', earlier 'ráha'; OE 'ráh-déor';
                                  ON 'rábukkr'
                                  > "roe-buck", OHG rêh, rêch - but 'rêho' "billy goat").
                                  > 'raih(j)o', F. -on. (OE 'ræ:ge', G 'Rehe' - but OHG 'rêia'"she-
                                  goat";
                                  > ON 'rá').
                                  >
                                  > Under Rehe, Grimm lists the following synonyms: ricke, rehe,
                                  hille, geisz.
                                  >
                                  > When I was working on that poem [
                                  > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm ], I didn't realise (or
                                  else
                                  > had forgotten) that the deer was female in Jordanes. I referred
                                  to it
                                  > as 'hairuts', 'raiha' and less specifically 'dius' "animal". So I
                                  > might have to revise that. Or just call it an alternative
                                  tradition...

                                  There's actually some evidence for an alternative tradition. In
                                  several versions of the deer-legend the animal could have been male.
                                  The Old Church Slavonic translation of the Simeon Logotheta's
                                  Chronicle (10th ct.) says: GotQi prêshídúshe Meotískoje jezero
                                  elafomí vodimi "The Goths (sic!) having crossed the Maeotic lake led
                                  by a deer (masculine)", where elafomí (instr. sg. of elafú*) is of
                                  course Greek ELAFOS which can be both masculine and feminine. The
                                  Hungarian legend mentions szarvas "stag" (see
                                  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4894). Hungarian
                                  doesn't distinguish grammatical genders, but szarvas seems to be
                                  borrowed from a satem IE (Iranian?) masculine word cognate to Lat.
                                  cervus.

                                  Still, Sozomenus (Hist. Eccl. VI, 37) writes: ELAFOS DIAFUGOUSA
                                  (feminine). Procopius (Bell. Goth. IV, 5) writes: ELAFON DE MIAN
                                  PROS AUTWN FEUFOUSAN (feminine); THi ELAFWi EPISPESQAI TAUTHi
                                  (feminine). Agathias (Hist. V, 11): EITE hWS ALLHQWS ELAFOU TINOS
                                  KATA TOUTO DH TO QRULOUMENON TA PRWTA hHGHSAMENHS (feminine).

                                  > > *haíruts M.-a "deer" (ON hjörtr, OE heor(o)t, OHG hiruz). Seems
                                  OK
                                  > > semantically, but I am at a total loss with probable feminine.
                                  > > *hairuti F.-jo?
                                  >
                                  > It would be handy for my alliteration if we could find one. I
                                  wonder
                                  > what Grimm's 'hille' comes from.

                                  In MHG hilde, hille meant "eifrig", "rasch", "geschäftig". Is this
                                  it? Fick-Falk-Torp (1909) explain it as a probable cognate of PG
                                  *haldan with the original meaning "(Vieh) hüten".

                                  Ualarauans
                                • llama_nom
                                  A couple more possibilities: Go. *hinda F -o, or *hindo F -on (OE hind, ON hind; OLG *hinda (MDu., Du. hinde), OHG hinta (MHG, Ger. hinde), wk. fem. The OED
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Sep 30, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    A couple more possibilities:

                                    Go. *hinda F -o, or *hindo F -on (OE hind, ON hind; OLG *hinda (MDu.,
                                    Du. hinde), OHG hinta (MHG, Ger. hinde), wk. fem. The OED says "some
                                    suggest derivation from Goth. hinþan to catch; others would connect it
                                    with Gr. KEMAS young deer, pricket."

                                    Go. ?*dámo F -on (masc. ?*dáma M -an). But the exact connection
                                    between English and North Germanic, on the one hand, and German on the
                                    other is unclear.

                                    Under 'doe', the OED has:

                                    "OE. dá is thought by some to be a contracted form, cognate with OHG.
                                    tâmo, dâmo wk. masc., MHG. tâme, G. dam- (in damhirsch, damwild), a.
                                    L. dáma, damma f., sometimes m., fallow deer, buck, doe; but there are
                                    serious difficulties. See Pogatscher Gr. Lat. u. Rom. Lehnworte im
                                    Altengl. §302."

                                    Grimm, under Damhirsch, mentions "althd. tâmo und tâm GRAFF 5, 422,
                                    mhd. tâme, tâmel; ags. dâ; dän. daa, daahjort, [...] ital. daino,
                                    daina; franz. daim, daine".
                                  • ualarauans
                                    ... (MDu., ... says some ... connect it ... FFT say it s from PG *hindî ( Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems strange to me. They also say it s from earlier
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Sep 30, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Go. *hinda F -o, or *hindo F -on (OE hind, ON hind; OLG *hinda
                                      (MDu.,
                                      > Du. hinde), OHG hinta (MHG, Ger. hinde), wk. fem. The OED
                                      says "some
                                      > suggest derivation from Goth. hinþan to catch; others would
                                      connect it
                                      > with Gr. KEMAS young deer, pricket."

                                      FFT say it's from PG *hindî (> Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems
                                      strange to me. They also say it's from earlier *hemdî and cognate to
                                      KEMAS (Gen. KEMADOS). Interestingly, NHG has Hinde and Hindin, both
                                      feminine. I guess it's this latter Hindin (with an "extra"
                                      feminizator) which led some to conclude about an –în- stem. OE and
                                      ON as I can gather are F.-o, right?

                                      -------------------------------------------------

                                      Þata was leitil waiht, / liþau unmahteig. / HINDA (?) hvarboda / af
                                      hairdai ainA. / Jah seiþu warþ. / Jah saurgandEI warþ. / FralusanA
                                      in fanja, / SI rann framis.

                                      hatiza, iþ RAIHON / rinnan lailotun. / Nahts neiþhardus. / Fraus
                                      nasos IZOS smalos.

                                      Is it OK with the rhyme now I wonder?

                                      Ualarauans
                                    • Francisc Czobor
                                      Hi, Ualarauans, There might be a connection between the Hungarian szarvas and Latin cervus , but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form szarv horn,
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 1, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi, Ualarauans,

                                        There might be a connection between the Hungarian "szarvas" and
                                        Latin "cervus", but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form
                                        szarv "horn, antler", the meaning being "having horns/antlers". As
                                        substantive it means "deer" (any gender), and as adjective: "with
                                        horns/antlers, horned", as in the compound szarvasmarha "horned
                                        cattle".
                                        The word szarv "horn" is common Finno-Ugrian, having cognates in all
                                        other Finno-Ugrian languages (Finnish: sarvi; Estonian: sarv;
                                        Livonian: so:ra, sa:ra; Saami [Lappish]: c^oar've; Mordvin: s'uro,
                                        s'ura; Mari [Cheremis]: s^ur; Udmurt: s'ur; Komi: s'ur; Khanty
                                        [Ostyak]: s'arBi; Mansi [Vogul]: s'o:re). This common Finno-Ugrian
                                        word is considered to be of Indo-European (satem, most probably
                                        Iranic) origin (cf. Avestan sru:, srva:, Mod. Pers. seru:, suru:[n];
                                        other cognates mentioned there are Latin cervus and German Horn).
                                        (source: A Magyar Nyelv Történeti-Etimológiai Szótára [The Historical-
                                        Etymological Dictionary of the Hungarian Language], Akadémiai Kiadó,
                                        Budapest, 1976)
                                        The old Hungarian chronicles mentioning the deer-legend were written
                                        in Latin, the oldest of them being that of Simon de Keza (written
                                        1282-1285) (followed by the Chronicon Hungariae Pictum / Painted
                                        Chronicle of Vienna, written around 1360, etc.). Until now, I have
                                        found only modern Hungarian translations of Keza's work, where the
                                        animal appears sometimes as "gímszarvas" (stag), sometimes
                                        as "szarvas ünö" (doe). But, finally, I have found the Latin text,
                                        only a part of it, but containing the passage of interest
                                        (http://www.konyv-e.hu/pdf/Kezai-latin-r.pdf): there is clearly about
                                        a "cerva" ! The passage reads:
                                        "Accidit autem dierum una venandi causa ipsos perrexisse; quibus in
                                        deserto cum cerva occurrisset, in paludes Meotidas illam insequentes,
                                        fugiit ante eos. Cumque ibi ab oculis eorum prorsus vanuisset,
                                        diutius requisitam invenire nullo modo potuerunt. Peragratis tandem
                                        paludibus memoratis pro armentis nutriendis ipsam conspexerant
                                        oportunam."
                                        The influence of Iordanes is obvious.

                                        Francisc



                                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                        > ...
                                        > There's actually some evidence for an alternative tradition. In
                                        > several versions of the deer-legend the animal could have been
                                        male.
                                        > The Old Church Slavonic translation of the Simeon Logotheta's
                                        > Chronicle (10th ct.) says: GotQi prêshídúshe Meotískoje jezero
                                        > elafomí vodimi "The Goths (sic!) having crossed the Maeotic lake
                                        led
                                        > by a deer (masculine)", where elafomí (instr. sg. of elafú*) is of
                                        > course Greek ELAFOS which can be both masculine and feminine. The
                                        > Hungarian legend mentions szarvas "stag" (see
                                        > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/4894).
                                        Hungarian
                                        > doesn't distinguish grammatical genders, but szarvas seems to be
                                        > borrowed from a satem IE (Iranian?) masculine word cognate to Lat.
                                        > cervus.
                                        > ...
                                      • ualarauans
                                        Hi Francisc, ... all ... [n]; ... Historical- ... Kiadó, ... At first I thought szarvas preserves Indo-Iranian a-stem masculine ending -as, much like Finnish
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi Francisc,

                                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > There might be a connection between the Hungarian "szarvas" and
                                          > Latin "cervus", but not so direct. szarvas is a derivative form
                                          > szarv "horn, antler", the meaning being "having horns/antlers". As
                                          > substantive it means "deer" (any gender), and as adjective: "with
                                          > horns/antlers, horned", as in the compound szarvasmarha "horned
                                          > cattle".
                                          > The word szarv "horn" is common Finno-Ugrian, having cognates in
                                          all
                                          > other Finno-Ugrian languages (Finnish: sarvi; Estonian: sarv;
                                          > Livonian: so:ra, sa:ra; Saami [Lappish]: c^oar've; Mordvin: s'uro,
                                          > s'ura; Mari [Cheremis]: s^ur; Udmurt: s'ur; Komi: s'ur; Khanty
                                          > [Ostyak]: s'arBi; Mansi [Vogul]: s'o:re). This common Finno-Ugrian
                                          > word is considered to be of Indo-European (satem, most probably
                                          > Iranic) origin (cf. Avestan sru:, srva:, Mod. Pers. seru:, suru:
                                          [n];
                                          > other cognates mentioned there are Latin cervus and German Horn).
                                          > (source: A Magyar Nyelv Történeti-Etimológiai Szótára [The
                                          Historical-
                                          > Etymological Dictionary of the Hungarian Language], Akadémiai
                                          Kiadó,
                                          > Budapest, 1976)

                                          At first I thought szarvas preserves Indo-Iranian a-stem masculine
                                          ending -as, much like Finnish germanisms do. The expected proto-word
                                          could be then smth like *s'arvas "horned animal" < PIE *k'er@w-:
                                          *k'r.w-o- (Pokorny I, 576) – cf. Lith. kárve, OCSl. krava (both
                                          fem.) "cow", OPruss. kurwis "ox" (with a surprising initial k- in
                                          otherwise satem languages). Now I see from your exposition that
                                          the -as in szarvas is a Hungarian suffix and does not account for
                                          gender. Thank you for clearing this up.

                                          > The old Hungarian chronicles mentioning the deer-legend were
                                          written
                                          > in Latin, the oldest of them being that of Simon de Keza (written
                                          > 1282-1285) (followed by the Chronicon Hungariae Pictum / Painted
                                          > Chronicle of Vienna, written around 1360, etc.). Until now, I have
                                          > found only modern Hungarian translations of Keza's work, where the
                                          > animal appears sometimes as "gímszarvas" (stag), sometimes
                                          > as "szarvas ünö" (doe). But, finally, I have found the Latin text,
                                          > only a part of it, but containing the passage of interest
                                          > (http://www.konyv-e.hu/pdf/Kezai-latin-r.pdf): there is clearly
                                          about
                                          > a "cerva" ! The passage reads:
                                          > "Accidit autem dierum una venandi causa ipsos perrexisse; quibus in
                                          > deserto cum cerva occurrisset, in paludes Meotidas illam
                                          insequentes,
                                          > fugiit ante eos. Cumque ibi ab oculis eorum prorsus vanuisset,
                                          > diutius requisitam invenire nullo modo potuerunt. Peragratis tandem
                                          > paludibus memoratis pro armentis nutriendis ipsam conspexerant
                                          > oportunam."
                                          > The influence of Iordanes is obvious.

                                          It is obvious indeed. Thank you for citing this source. Well, looks
                                          like one argument less for a male deer. Now what we have for a "doe"
                                          in Gothic (a bit of summing up):

                                          *hinda F.-o (*hindo F.-on; *hindei F.-ein)
                                          *raiho F.-on (*raihjo F.-on)
                                          *sago F.-on

                                          *demo (?) F.-on seems really problematic...

                                          Ualarauans
                                        • llama_nom
                                          ... OE has acc.sg. hinde , consistent with F. -o, although the i-stems could take acc.sg. too by analogy with o-stems. I m not sure about ON; just one
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > FFT say it's from PG *hindî (> Go. *hindei F.-ein) which seems
                                            > strange to me. They also say it's from earlier *hemdî and cognate to
                                            > KEMAS (Gen. KEMADOS). Interestingly, NHG has Hinde and Hindin, both
                                            > feminine. I guess it's this latter Hindin (with an "extra"
                                            > feminizator) which led some to conclude about an –în- stem. OE and
                                            > ON as I can gather are F.-o, right?

                                            OE has acc.sg. 'hinde', consistent with F. -o, although the i-stems
                                            could take acc.sg. too by analogy with o-stems. I'm not sure about
                                            ON; just one example in the Orðabók Háskólans textasafn, in the singular:

                                            http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?lemma=hind&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m1=hind+hinda+hindanna+hindar+hindarinnar+hindin+hindina+hindinni+hindir+hindirnar+hindum+hindunum+hindurnar&l1=Leita&lmax=1

                                            sáu þeir hind eina stóra ok væna ok ríða þar eptir
                                            (Hjálmars saga ok Ölvis).

                                            Modern Icelandic has gen.sg. -ar, nom./acc.pl. ir., but a lot of
                                            o-stems have come to be declined like this. The OHG on-stem 'hinta'
                                            would look the same in the nom.sg. as an o-stem, so for now, I'm guess
                                            ing that it was originally an o-stem.


                                            > -------------------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Þata was leitil waiht, / liþau unmahteig. / HINDA (?) hvarboda / af
                                            > hairdai ainA. / Jah seiþu warþ. / Jah saurgandEI warþ. / FralusanA
                                            > in fanja, / SI rann framis.
                                            >
                                            > hatiza, iþ RAIHON / rinnan lailotun. / Nahts neiþhardus. / Fraus
                                            > nasos IZOS smalos.
                                            >
                                            > Is it OK with the rhyme now I wonder?

                                            Well, it does bad things to the meter in a couple of places ;-) But
                                            we can solve that easy enough:

                                            B ... Þata was leitil waiht, ....x x x / x /
                                            D ... liþau unmahteig. ........../ (x) / \ x
                                            B ... Af hairdai hvarb ..........x / x /
                                            A ... hinda aina. .............../ x / x
                                            B ... Jah seiþu warþ. ...........x / x /
                                            E ... Saurgandei warþ. ........../ \ x /
                                            A ... Fralusana in fanja ........(x) / (x) x / x
                                            A ... si rann framis. ...........x x / x

                                            (Or 'Jah seiþu warþ, jah saurgandei... x / x / . x / \ x)

                                            Technical jiggery-pokery: Verbal prefixes and the negatve particle
                                            'ni' are allowed in an on-line (odd line) of Sievers type A or D. The
                                            final line is Sievers type A3 (single delayed lift), cf. OE 'se wæs
                                            mín fæder', with "resolution" blocked by the not entirely unstressed
                                            preceding word.

                                            As an alternative to Go. *raih(j)o, we could perhaps have Go. *raigjo
                                            (which fits exactly with the OE and OHG forms). Gothic levels out
                                            Verner's Law forms in the strong verbs and elsewhere, and may well
                                            have done here by analogy with 'raiha', but maybe not.
                                          • llama_nom
                                            There we go: http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over from before the deer s gender change
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              There we go:

                                              http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm

                                              Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                                              from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I *think* I
                                              got them all...
                                            • ualarauans
                                              ... *think* I ... The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/ which is translated She was hard pressed . But this may refer to /þata
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Oct 2, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > There we go:
                                                >
                                                > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
                                                >
                                                > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                                                > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
                                                *think* I
                                                > got them all...

                                                The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
                                                which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
                                                to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.

                                                A couple more comments while we are upon it...

                                                /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?

                                                /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                                                that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                                                parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                                                *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

                                                /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
                                                seljaizos?

                                                /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)

                                                /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
                                                thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
                                                no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
                                                but is it not "thou mightest"?

                                                And I like your *niqis for "water monster" (or smth like this)!


                                                What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
                                                could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
                                                Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
                                                (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).

                                                Ualarauans
                                              • llama_nom
                                                ... That s what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of the meter, and because dius was the last noun mentioned. But given what
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > There we go:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/drus.htm
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Let me know if you spot any masculine pronouns or endings left over
                                                  > > from before the deer's gender change (when hind was hart); I
                                                  > *think* I
                                                  > > got them all...
                                                  >
                                                  > The only one I (seem to) have found is /Harduba was anaprangan/
                                                  > which is translated "She was hard pressed". But this may refer
                                                  > to /þata airpo dius/ rather than to /si/ in the next strophe.


                                                  That's what I had in mind, anyway. I used neuter here for the sake of
                                                  the meter, and because 'dius' was the last noun mentioned. But given
                                                  what Streitberg says in section 236.1-2, and Wright in 429.1-2 about
                                                  natural gender sometimes taking precedence over grammatical gender, I
                                                  suspect either would be acceptable here (feminine because we know the
                                                  animal is female, or neuter because of the gender of 'dius'). I stuck
                                                  to feminine in the English translation though because we've lost the
                                                  idea of arbitrary grammatical gender on nouns, so it might be a bit
                                                  confusing to shift back and forth between neuter and feminine
                                                  (although even in English there's some leeway when talking about animals).


                                                  > A couple more comments while we are upon it...
                                                  >
                                                  > /waurhtida ijos du wargam/ - (ga)waurhta?


                                                  You're right, of course. Incidentally, the prefixed and unprefixed
                                                  forms can both be used perfectively: 'nahtamat waurhta' (Mk 6:21) :
                                                  'gawaurhtedun imma nahtamat' (J 12:2).


                                                  > /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                                                  > that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                                                  > parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                                                  > *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?


                                                  Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
                                                  but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
                                                  reason to favour one over the other?


                                                  > /suns selaizos sunnons broþar/. Since sels is an i-stem, probably
                                                  > seljaizos?


                                                  Yes, well spotted! Hmm, I'm getting a slight sense of deja-vu here, a
                                                  nasty feeling that maybe I saw this months ago and got distracted by
                                                  something else before I got round to correcting it...


                                                  > /fauhrtjan uns/. A typo!!! (ALARM!ALARM!ALARM!)


                                                  Argh, extremely well spotted! I had to read this three times before I
                                                  saw what was wrong with it! At first I assumed you must be pointing
                                                  out a grammatical error, so I looked at the poem, couldn't see what it
                                                  was, then looked back here, and only then did the penny drop.


                                                  >
                                                  > /Hvana ahjis, dwala, þatei usdreiban mageis?/ "Whom, fool, doest
                                                  > thou imagine that thou might drive out?" – perhaps, þanei usdreiban,
                                                  > no? And, forgive my pardonless teaching English to a native speaker,
                                                  > but is it not "thou mightest"?


                                                  I was thinking of 'hvana wileiþ ei fraletau izwis?' (Mt 27:17). But
                                                  then we've also got 'þana gawenja þammei managizo fragaf' (L 7:43).
                                                  And the 'ei' might be necessary in Mt 27:17 to go with the subjunctive
                                                  /optative to give the sense of wishing, so I'm incline to go with
                                                  'þanei' as you suggest.

                                                  Since I didn't actually grow up saying "thou might(est)" in everyday
                                                  conversation, all criticism is welcome! I was thinking of 'might' as
                                                  subjunctive here, used because the ability to drive anyone out is
                                                  unreal in the opinion of the speaker. Looking now, there seem to be
                                                  examples of both 'might' and 'might(e)st' sometimes either in the same
                                                  construction, which makes me think they may have been interchangeable
                                                  at least in some parts of the modern period. Where Chaucer has 'thogh
                                                  thou myghtest' in the Merchant's Tale, a modern adaptation has 'though
                                                  thou might'. Robert Pleasants in the 18th c. writes 'that thou might
                                                  be better able', but there are lots of 17th c. examples of optative
                                                  'might(e)st', however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
                                                  Bible as subjunctive:

                                                  Though thou mount on high as the eagle, and though thy nest be set
                                                  among the stars, I will bring thee down from thence, saith Jehovah.
                                                  (Obadiah 1:4, KJB 1611).

                                                  That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou
                                                  hast been instructed.
                                                  (Luke 1:4, KJB 1611).

                                                  Compare: "Though thou pour the ocean into thy pitcher, It can hold no
                                                  more than one day's store." (Rumi's Masnavi i Ma'navi, trans.
                                                  Whinfield 1898).


                                                  > [...]
                                                  >
                                                  > What worries me about our *raih(j)o:*raig(j)o is whether the word
                                                  > could by some chance have a -hv-:-gw- alternation after Verner's
                                                  > Law. In which case we'd have Gothic *ráihv(j)o:*raiw(j)o
                                                  > (cf. ahva:awi = OE ea:íg).


                                                  Köbler reconstructs PGmc. *raigjon, F on-stem. OHG has 'réia' and
                                                  'reiga'. I'm not quite sure to get from this vowel to NHG 'ricke'
                                                  (Grimm cites dialectal alternatives 'rieke' and 'rücke'), but the
                                                  survival of /k/ there suggests that it was originally */g/ rather than
                                                  */gw/. I'm not sure how */wj/ develops in Proto Old English; I'll
                                                  have to look that up.

                                                  Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
                                                • llama_nom
                                                  ... but -wiseis will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any reason to favour one over the other? Revised to Jah Wulþuwiseis x / x / (x) (Sievers
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    >> /Wulþuweiseis/ "The glorious Visigoths" – but there's an opinion
                                                    >> that it was rather PG. *wesu- or *wezu- "good" (with a lot of
                                                    >> parallels in other IE languages) which accounts for Visi(goths).
                                                    >> *Wulþuwisjus:*Wulþuwiseis?

                                                    > Good point, I'll look into that. '-wisjus' doesn't affect the meter,
                                                    but '-wiseis' will mean a change due to the short root vowel. Any
                                                    reason to favour one over the other?

                                                    Revised to 'Jah Wulþuwiseis' x / x / (x) (Sievers type B), on the
                                                    principle "if there's no indication otherwise, tribes can be i-stems".
                                                  • ualarauans
                                                    ... Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I m flattered and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks. /allaim inu hrabna/
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > [...]
                                                      > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!

                                                      Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                                                      and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.

                                                      /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                                                      something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                                                      the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                                                      allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?

                                                      Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                                                      could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?

                                                      /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                                                      Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                                                      unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?

                                                      /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                                                      just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                                                      translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                                                      alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?

                                                      /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                                                      their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?

                                                      /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                                                      shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?

                                                      /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                                                      with the bolts"
                                                      and
                                                      /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                                                      [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                                                      intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                                                      to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                                                      any examples?

                                                      /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                                                      dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                                                      Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?

                                                      /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                                                      above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?

                                                      And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                                                      lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!

                                                      Ualarauans
                                                    • llama_nom
                                                      ... Correction, thou might doesn t, but other verbs do. There seems to be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least: For though thou
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > [...] however 'thou might' also appears in the King James
                                                        > Bible as subjunctive

                                                        Correction, 'thou might' doesn't, but other verbs do. There seems to
                                                        be a choice of subjunctive or indicative in some contexts at least:

                                                        For though thou wash thee with nitre

                                                        Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee
                                                        with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in
                                                        vain shalt thou make thyself fair;

                                                        though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again,

                                                        though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away,
                                                        __________________________________________________________

                                                        Thanks for the extra comments - and the extra praise! It would be a
                                                        poorer poem without your help. I'll have a proper look through them
                                                        tomorrow. Just a couple of replies: 'unhulþo' and 'skohsl', though
                                                        feminine and neuter respectively, are each found with a masculine
                                                        adjective on occasion (Mt 9:33, Mk 8:31; and cf. Mk 3:22 þamma
                                                        reikistin unhulþono)--see Streitberg 236.1. But, given the story, it
                                                        might be better to make them explicitly male, 'miþ unhulþam'. You're
                                                        right about 'funsana' and 'gadauþniþ' and 'haubida'...
                                                      • ualarauans
                                                        To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there s an attested word Skwþus translating SKUQHS
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Oct 3, 2007
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          To find a proper Gothic equivalent of the name of Scythians is a
                                                          more difficult task than it may seem. Yes, there's an attested word
                                                          Skwþus translating SKUQHS "Scythian" in Col. 3:11, but this clearly
                                                          was a newly borrowed name, unheard of before the Bible translation.
                                                          When we are dealing with parts of Getica that apparently go back to
                                                          the lost Gothic epics (such as the story of the migration into Oium,
                                                          for example) and mention "Scythia" and "Scythians", a native Gothic
                                                          term is to be found. In fact, Jordanes recorded several East
                                                          European ethnonyms in the form presumably close to spoken Gothic
                                                          variant: these are e. g. Antes (Go. *Anteis pl.) and Spali (Go.
                                                          *Spalos or *Spalans pl.). Further there is the list of peoples
                                                          conquered by Ermanaric in Getica 116 where the mysterious
                                                          Golthescytha thiudos are mentioned. The most plausible of many
                                                          different interpretations of this name first suggested by von
                                                          Grienberger (1895) and supported by Stender-Petersen (1927) and
                                                          Korkkanen (1975) views it as a Latino-Gothic hybrid Gotth[a]e or
                                                          Gotth[ic]e Scytha-thiudos, that is "Scythian peoples [subjected] to
                                                          the Goth (= Ermanaric)" or "peoples of Scythia in the Gothic
                                                          language". This is followed with eleven heavily distorted names of
                                                          these peoples. The word Scytha-thiudos pl. (cf. Gut-þiuda) seems to
                                                          comprehend the element Skwþa-, but this is most likely a later
                                                          conjecture made by Cassiodorus or Jordanes.

                                                          Currently there are several suggested etymologies of the name of
                                                          Scythians. The one I find most convincing explains Greek SKUQAI as a
                                                          phonetic approximation of OIr. *Skuda- or *Skuða- derived from the
                                                          PIE stem *skeu(d)- "to throw", "to shoot", "to push". Scythians are
                                                          thus "archers" literally (see for details Oswald Szemerenyi's Four
                                                          Old Iranian Ethnic Names:..., 1980:20ff). The Germanic reflex of the
                                                          same stem is PG *skeutan "to shoot", "to cast a missile" >
                                                          ON skjóta, OE scéotan, OHG skiozan, Crimean Gothic schieten etc.
                                                          The attested nomen agentis in the historical languages – ON skyti,
                                                          OE scytta, OHG skuzzo – points towards
                                                          PG *skutjan- M.-an "shooter", "archer" (ibid.), but cf.
                                                          ON andskoti "opponent", "adversary" which < *anda-skutan-, lit.
                                                          "one who shoots back (or against smb.)", without -j- in the suffix.
                                                          Hence we can reconstruct Go. *skiutan st. v. 2 "to shoot"; *skutja
                                                          M.-an "archer" and its variant *skuta M.-an. The last form is the
                                                          closest analogue of the Scythians' ethnonym possible. Semantically
                                                          it's a perfect designation for a people of steppe nomads with
                                                          mounted archers comprising next to 100% of its war power.

                                                          By the time of the Gothic migrations the epoch of the Scythians
                                                          dominating the steppes north of the Black Sea was long over. They
                                                          had been effectively replaced by kindred Iranian-speaking tribes of
                                                          Sarmatians, Alans, Iazyges and others. Their ethnonym must have gone
                                                          away with them, although the Graeco-Roman authors continued to use
                                                          it indiscriminately for all nomadic peoples of the Northeast,
                                                          including the Goths. Thus we are far from being sure of an immediate
                                                          genetic succession between Scythian self-name *Skuða-ta pl. and
                                                          hypothetical Go. *Skutans. If the latter was ever used for Iranian
                                                          (and probably Hunnish as well) neighbors of the Goths, it could well
                                                          have occured independently. Still, for translation purposes I'd
                                                          suggest *Skutans and *Skuta-þiuda (*Skuta-land), not Skwþus and its
                                                          derivatives, whenever it comes to render Scythae and Scythia in the
                                                          passages of Getica taken from the Gothic oral tradition.

                                                          Ualarauans

                                                          P.S. To compare with *Skuta-þiuda is OHG folk
                                                          sceotantero "Schützenvolk" in Hildebrandslied 51.
                                                        • llama_nom
                                                          ... You re right, as usual :-) I ve replaced inu with alja . ... Well, we have got awiliudon , supposing the first element of that is from the same root?
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > [...]
                                                            > > Thanks for all your eagle-eyed observations!
                                                            >
                                                            > Well, since I am obviously commended (arins augo! – I'm flattered
                                                            > and blushing) I feel ready to drop in some more... eh... remarks.
                                                            >
                                                            > /allaim inu hrabna/ "for all but the raven" – probably I fail to see
                                                            > something which is evident allaim inuh (Walha)hrabna, but if it is
                                                            > the preposition inu(h) "without" it should govern accusative. Maybe,
                                                            > allaim alja hrabna with alja "except"? Or niba(i)?


                                                            You're right, as usual :-) I've replaced 'inu' with 'alja'.



                                                            > Awimundus (PN). Thinking of niuja-satiþs (but niu-klahs) I wonder
                                                            > could the name be occasionally spelt *Aujamundus or even *Aumundus?


                                                            Well, we have got 'awiliudon', supposing the first element of that is
                                                            from the same root?


                                                            > /Jah miþ unhulþom arþu nemun/ "And with fiends they dwelt" – iirc
                                                            > Jordanes' point was that the demons were actually male (incubi). Miþ
                                                            > unhulþam (dat. pl. masc.)?


                                                            Changed to 'unhulþam' as you suggest to emphasise that they're male.


                                                            > /fulk unkausiþ jah faurhtjando/ "a force untried and fearful". I'd
                                                            > just like to ask whether fulk unfraisan could be equally possible (I
                                                            > translated inexpertus exercitus as unfraisans harjis in the Attilae
                                                            > alloquium. Maybe I should change it to unkausiþs)?


                                                            I think either would fit the meaning (cf. 2Cor 13:5), but I've changed
                                                            to 'unfraisan' for the sake of the extra gratuitous alliteration.


                                                            > /Hilms gulþahrudans im ana haubiþ ni sat/ "No gilt helm sat upon
                                                            > their heads" – ana haubida (dat. sg.)? Or maybe ana haubidam (pl.)?


                                                            Changed to 'Hilms gulþahrudans / ni sat ana haubida im'. I think
                                                            'haubidam' would be possible, but for singuar, see 'ni indrobnai izwar
                                                            hairto' = hUMWN hE KARDIA (J 14:1); 'iþ hairto ize' = hE de KARDIA
                                                            AUTWN (Mk 7:6) = KJB 'their heart' = Icelandic 'hjarta þeirra'.
                                                            Google turns up lots of examples of Icelandic 'í/á/yfir höfði þeirra',
                                                            and in st. 60 of the Old Norse Sólarljóð, we find:

                                                            Marga menn
                                                            sá ek moldar gengna,
                                                            þá er eigi máttu þjónustu ná;
                                                            heiðnar stjörnur
                                                            stóðu yfir höfði þeim
                                                            fáðar feiknstöfum.

                                                            "I saw many dead men who could not take service [with God]. Heathen
                                                            stars stood over their head[s], painted with evil letters/runes."


                                                            > /Jus þan ... airlos allai gadauþnand/ "Then all ye doughty ones ...
                                                            > shall die" – gadauþniþ (2nd pers. pl.)?


                                                            You're right.


                                                            > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                                                            > with the bolts"
                                                            > and
                                                            > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                                                            > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                                                            > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                                                            > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                                                            > any examples?
                                                            >
                                                            > /Ik þuk nu faigjana wait jah funs haljos/ "I know now that thou art
                                                            > dead already and eager for thy grave" – funsana haljos? Or it's
                                                            > Audika who is eager for Ibra's grave (funs [im] haljos [þeinaizos])?


                                                            I was trying to get across the idea that Audika (indulging in a bit of
                                                            traditional flyting before the battle) is telling Ibra that he (Ibra)
                                                            is fey, i.e. locked into a feverish or trance-like state of mind where
                                                            his every choice seems to bring death closer, as if he's
                                                            subconsciously working towards his own destruction, and so there's no
                                                            helping him, and it shows in the fact that his mind's on ancient
                                                            glories and tales rather than on the practical realities of the
                                                            chahged political situation.

                                                            http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0149.png


                                                            > /Sijaidu afhugidai?/ "Are ye bewitched?" – if this aims at the two
                                                            > above, then it should be dual, probably sijaitsu?


                                                            The plural was deliberate. The nameless grey-haired warrior is on the
                                                            side of the Huns and Gothic rebels against Airmanareiks. He's
                                                            addressing the forces loyal to Airmanareiks, currently holed up in
                                                            their fortified settlement (Ibra and his men). I think he's probably
                                                            a certain god (harjonds, from the same root as Herjan) who famously
                                                            turns up at such moments to ensure the battle goes according to his
                                                            inscrutable plans. He goads the defenders into leaving their position
                                                            of strength and coming out to fight in the open against superior
                                                            numbers; he also drops a hint to the attackers clues about how to get
                                                            them out if they refuse (cf. the end of Völsunga saga), although he
                                                            knows they won't. The reference to fire and enchantment was meant to
                                                            be an allusion to the story in Guta saga of the founding of Gotland
                                                            and how the spell that caused the island to sink every day was lifted
                                                            with fire; so he's invoking a memory of the very beginning of Gothic
                                                            history here at what must seem to the participants as something like
                                                            the end.


                                                            > And I'd like to add that I re-read the poem ever again with a non-
                                                            > lessening pleasure. Waila gawaurhtes waurstw þata mikilo, Lama!


                                                            Þagk þus fairhaita, Walhahrabn, jah allaim fairni-liuþarjam þaim
                                                            þizeei *hugisahtins (ideas) ik skandalaus hlaf!
                                                          • llama_nom
                                                            ... This isn t quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the passive was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus and the active intransitive hve
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Oct 4, 2007
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > /Ga-nu-riqizjadau himins strelom/ "So let the heavens be blotted
                                                              > with the bolts"
                                                              > and
                                                              > /Inreiradau grundus ... hrussam/ "Let the ground quiver ... with
                                                              > [our] steeds" – the attested verbs riqizjan and reiran are
                                                              > intransitive, and I don't know if they could be used with what seems
                                                              > to be dativus auctoris like transitives in mediopassive. Do we have
                                                              > any examples?

                                                              This isn't quite the same, but compare the use of dative both in the
                                                              passive 'was ... gawasiþs taglam ulbandaus' and the active
                                                              intransitive 'hve wasjaima', 'gawasjam sarwam liuhadis', 'ni wasjaiþ
                                                              twaim paidom'. Or 'agisa mikillamma dishaibaida wesun' : 'ohtedun
                                                              agisa mikilamma'. But can we generalise from that to other uses of
                                                              the dative? I'll see if I can find a closer match somewhere. Or
                                                              would a preposition help: miþ, fram, af?
                                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.