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Intro and question about Lombardic...

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  • Nathan Bellomy-McKnight
    Hi everybody, I ve been subscribed to Gothic-L for a long time, but as far as I can recall I ve never posted anything. Ironically, my first posting isn t about
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 17, 2007
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      Hi everybody,

      I've been subscribed to Gothic-L for a long time, but as far as I can recall
      I've never posted anything. Ironically, my first posting isn't about Gothic,
      but about another old Germanic language. I recently read about the Pernik
      Sword. It was found in Bulgaria in the 1920s I think, and has the following
      inscription: +IHININIhVILPIDHINIhVILPN+

      In the last couple of years, a researcher claimed to have identified the
      language as Austro-Bavarian, Lombardic, or another early West Germanic
      language. The translation they give is "I do not await eternity, I am
      eternity." But since the paper isn't available online, I'm not sure of the
      intended parsing for such a translation.

      Assuming a West Germanic language with "hvil" for E. "while"/G. "weile", I
      would guess the inscription is supposed to be parsed as: "I hini ni hvilpid
      hini hvilpn". This would make -id and -n pretty typical Germanic verb
      inflections. But what's that p doing in there? -pid and -pn would be
      surprising verb endings I think. Could hvilp- be the root word? Wouldn't
      that make it less likely to be cognate with "while/weile"? Are there any
      potential cognates in other Germanic languages for somehting like this?
      Maybe: whilpan, whilvan, wilvan, vilfid, whilfed, völvon (Volvo!)...??? Am I
      barking up the wrong tree? Regardless though, if -id and -n are verb
      inflections, makes hvilpid sound like a past tense to me. Does anybody know
      if "hini" has cognates with a meaning similar to "eternity"?

      Personally, I think hvilp- (if that's the correct parsing) is more likely
      cognate with "wolf" (cf. PIE *wlp-), making the p in hvilp- an archaism that
      was dropped in other Germanic languages. That would make Lombardic: I hini
      ni hvilpid hini hvilpn. Something like "I am not wolfish, I am wolfen" or
      "I'm not wolf*like*, I *am* a wolf". In that case, Lombardic "hini" would
      probably be cognate with "hine", the Anglo-Saxon accusative case of "he". Or
      maybe hini functions like German heiße (Swedish heter, Icelandic heiþur) =
      "my name is", so Hvilpid would be a proper name (is Úlfið a name?), similar
      to Scandinavian Ulfs, Gothic Wulfilas, or German Wolfgang, giving the
      sentence a meaning akin to "Wolfgang's not just my name, I really am a
      wolf!" (Jag heter inte Ulfs, jag heter ulf / Ich heiße nicht Wolfgang, ich
      heiße Wolf) Not a half bad thing to inscribe on your sword if you ask me...
      Totally speculative, of course.

      Any thoughts?

      Best,
      Nathan McKnight
      www.nathanmcknight.com

      Nathan Bellomy
      Assistant Editor, Science
      McGraw-Hill School Solutions Group
      8787 Orion Place | Columbus, OH 43240
      Phone: 614-430-4990 | Fax: 614-430-4403
      nathan_bellomy@...

      The difference between
      theory and practice
      is smaller in theory
      than it is in practice.
    • Arthur Jones
      Hails alla In a quick response to a very well-placed query by Nathan Bellomy-McKnight about the Pernik Sword, might I posit the following: 1. Some months ago I
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 17, 2007
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        Hails alla

        In a quick response to a very well-placed query by Nathan Bellomy-McKnight about the Pernik Sword, might I posit the following:

        1. Some months ago I posted some info about this relic, and there is indeed much available online, although some of it is in Swedish, Italian, Bulgarian or German. Several of you out there can perhaps help me out here, although with sufficient time I may be able to ferret many such articles out and post them.

        Archaeological dating techniques date the sweord to the mid-eighth Century AD. Pernik, where the sword was uncovered, lies between Sophia, Bulgaria, and the Serbian border.

        2. We can tell that it is Langobardic because the text corresponds best and most consistently to the beginning era of the Second Sound Shift (Zweite Lautverschiebung) that nowadays distinguishes High German from Low German. Thus, in a number of existing Bavarian-Austrian dialects, including Zimbri, initial voiced labials such as "b" became unvoiced, i.e., turned into "p". This explains the "pid" and "pn". The "hwil" or "huil" Nathan is right about; "hweil" was the Gothic for hour or time. Further, the Alpine Zimbrisch dialect likewise uses "pn" where NHD uses "bin". Thus, the most likely translation is found at the end of this poem, undoubtedly written by a GREAT BUT UNRECOGNIZED MASTER BARD (ahem: me):

        I am mindful of inscriptions on a Langobardic sword;
        Served well its master in the Balkans,
        Sparked and rang off helm and shield,
        Proved a voiceless turning point,
        made
        Raucous cries into faint gurgles,
        Made the mighty yield.

        yet poems past, and sabres hoary,
        Strive for memory and vain glory:

        IH INI NI HUIL PID -- (I)H INI HUIL PN

        I, within, not (the) hour await;
        I, within, (the) hour am.

        Please note that, as in Gothic, the letter "h" can indicate a guttural such as the "ch" in NHD "Bach" or "Buch". The "Pid" , Gothic "beidan", to bide, to await.

        Golja thuk,

        Aizamunds

        Arthur A. Jones
        arthur.jones@...


        Nathan Bellomy-McKnight <aelffin@...> wrote:
        Hi everybody,

        I've been subscribed to Gothic-L for a long time, but as far as I can recall
        I've never posted anything. Ironically, my first posting isn't about Gothic,
        but about another old Germanic language. I recently read about the Pernik
        Sword. It was found in Bulgaria in the 1920s I think, and has the following
        inscription: +IHININIhVILPIDHINIhVILPN+

        In the last couple of years, a researcher claimed to have identified the
        language as Austro-Bavarian, Lombardic, or another early West Germanic
        language. The translation they give is "I do not await eternity, I am
        eternity." But since the paper isn't available online, I'm not sure of the
        intended parsing for such a translation.

        Assuming a West Germanic language with "hvil" for E. "while"/G. "weile", I
        would guess the inscription is supposed to be parsed as: "I hini ni hvilpid
        hini hvilpn". This would make -id and -n pretty typical Germanic verb
        inflections. But what's that p doing in there? -pid and -pn would be
        surprising verb endings I think. Could hvilp- be the root word? Wouldn't
        that make it less likely to be cognate with "while/weile"? Are there any
        potential cognates in other Germanic languages for somehting like this?
        Maybe: whilpan, whilvan, wilvan, vilfid, whilfed, völvon (Volvo!)...??? Am I
        barking up the wrong tree? Regardless though, if -id and -n are verb
        inflections, makes hvilpid sound like a past tense to me. Does anybody know
        if "hini" has cognates with a meaning similar to "eternity"?

        Personally, I think hvilp- (if that's the correct parsing) is more likely
        cognate with "wolf" (cf. PIE *wlp-), making the p in hvilp- an archaism that
        was dropped in other Germanic languages. That would make Lombardic: I hini
        ni hvilpid hini hvilpn. Something like "I am not wolfish, I am wolfen" or
        "I'm not wolf*like*, I *am* a wolf". In that case, Lombardic "hini" would
        probably be cognate with "hine", the Anglo-Saxon accusative case of "he". Or
        maybe hini functions like German heiße (Swedish heter, Icelandic heiþur) =
        "my name is", so Hvilpid would be a proper name (is Úlfið a name?), similar
        to Scandinavian Ulfs, Gothic Wulfilas, or German Wolfgang, giving the
        sentence a meaning akin to "Wolfgang's not just my name, I really am a
        wolf!" (Jag heter inte Ulfs, jag heter ulf / Ich heiße nicht Wolfgang, ich
        heiße Wolf) Not a half bad thing to inscribe on your sword if you ask me...
        Totally speculative, of course.

        Any thoughts?

        Best,
        Nathan McKnight
        www.nathanmcknight.com

        Nathan Bellomy
        Assistant Editor, Science
        McGraw-Hill School Solutions Group
        8787 Orion Place | Columbus, OH 43240
        Phone: 614-430-4990 | Fax: 614-430-4403
        nathan_bellomy@...

        The difference between
        theory and practice
        is smaller in theory
        than it is in practice.






        ARTHUR A. JONES


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dciurchea
        May I suggest that IH means Iisus Hristos and IN means Iisus Nazarinean, as common for that site and that era. ... there is indeed much available online,
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 18, 2007
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          May I suggest that IH means Iisus Hristos and IN means Iisus
          Nazarinean, as common for that site and that era.

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hails alla
          >
          > In a quick response to a very well-placed query by Nathan
          Bellomy-McKnight about the Pernik Sword, might I posit the following:
          >
          > 1. Some months ago I posted some info about this relic, and
          there is indeed much available online, although some of it is in
          Swedish, Italian, Bulgarian or German. Several of you out there can
          perhaps help me out here, although with sufficient time I may be
          able to ferret many such articles out and post them.
          >
          > Archaeological dating techniques date the sweord to the mid-
          eighth Century AD. Pernik, where the sword was uncovered, lies
          between Sophia, Bulgaria, and the Serbian border.
          >
          > 2. We can tell that it is Langobardic because the text
          corresponds best and most consistently to the beginning era of the
          Second Sound Shift (Zweite Lautverschiebung) that nowadays
          distinguishes High German from Low German. Thus, in a number of
          existing Bavarian-Austrian dialects, including Zimbri, initial
          voiced labials such as "b" became unvoiced, i.e., turned into "p".
          This explains the "pid" and "pn". The "hwil" or "huil" Nathan is
          right about; "hweil" was the Gothic for hour or time. Further, the
          Alpine Zimbrisch dialect likewise uses "pn" where NHD uses "bin".
          Thus, the most likely translation is found at the end of this poem,
          undoubtedly written by a GREAT BUT UNRECOGNIZED MASTER BARD (ahem:
          me):
          >
          > I am mindful of inscriptions on a Langobardic sword;
          > Served well its master in the Balkans,
          > Sparked and rang off helm and shield,
          > Proved a voiceless turning point,
          > made
          > Raucous cries into faint gurgles,
          > Made the mighty yield.
          >
          > yet poems past, and sabres hoary,
          > Strive for memory and vain glory:
          >
          > IH INI NI HUIL PID -- (I)H INI HUIL PN
          >
          > I, within, not (the) hour await;
          > I, within, (the) hour am.
          >
          > Please note that, as in Gothic, the letter "h" can indicate a
          guttural such as the "ch" in NHD "Bach" or "Buch". The "Pid" ,
          Gothic "beidan", to bide, to await.
          >
          > Golja thuk,
          >
          > Aizamunds
          >
          > Arthur A. Jones
          > arthur.jones@...
          >
          >
          > Nathan Bellomy-McKnight <aelffin@...> wrote:
          > Hi everybody,
          >
          > I've been subscribed to Gothic-L for a long time, but as far as I
          can recall
          > I've never posted anything. Ironically, my first posting isn't
          about Gothic,
          > but about another old Germanic language. I recently read about the
          Pernik
          > Sword. It was found in Bulgaria in the 1920s I think, and has the
          following
          > inscription: +IHININIhVILPIDHINIhVILPN+
          >
          > In the last couple of years, a researcher claimed to have
          identified the
          > language as Austro-Bavarian, Lombardic, or another early West
          Germanic
          > language. The translation they give is "I do not await eternity, I
          am
          > eternity." But since the paper isn't available online, I'm not
          sure of the
          > intended parsing for such a translation.
          >
          > Assuming a West Germanic language with "hvil" for
          E. "while"/G. "weile", I
          > would guess the inscription is supposed to be parsed as: "I hini
          ni hvilpid
          > hini hvilpn". This would make -id and -n pretty typical Germanic
          verb
          > inflections. But what's that p doing in there? -pid and -pn would
          be
          > surprising verb endings I think. Could hvilp- be the root word?
          Wouldn't
          > that make it less likely to be cognate with "while/weile"? Are
          there any
          > potential cognates in other Germanic languages for somehting like
          this?
          > Maybe: whilpan, whilvan, wilvan, vilfid, whilfed, völvon
          (Volvo!)...??? Am I
          > barking up the wrong tree? Regardless though, if -id and -n are
          verb
          > inflections, makes hvilpid sound like a past tense to me. Does
          anybody know
          > if "hini" has cognates with a meaning similar to "eternity"?
          >
          > Personally, I think hvilp- (if that's the correct parsing) is more
          likely
          > cognate with "wolf" (cf. PIE *wlp-), making the p in hvilp- an
          archaism that
          > was dropped in other Germanic languages. That would make
          Lombardic: I hini
          > ni hvilpid hini hvilpn. Something like "I am not wolfish, I am
          wolfen" or
          > "I'm not wolf*like*, I *am* a wolf". In that case,
          Lombardic "hini" would
          > probably be cognate with "hine", the Anglo-Saxon accusative case
          of "he". Or
          > maybe hini functions like German heiße (Swedish heter, Icelandic
          heiþur) =
          > "my name is", so Hvilpid would be a proper name (is Úlfið a
          name?), similar
          > to Scandinavian Ulfs, Gothic Wulfilas, or German Wolfgang, giving
          the
          > sentence a meaning akin to "Wolfgang's not just my name, I really
          am a
          > wolf!" (Jag heter inte Ulfs, jag heter ulf / Ich heiße nicht
          Wolfgang, ich
          > heiße Wolf) Not a half bad thing to inscribe on your sword if you
          ask me...
          > Totally speculative, of course.
          >
          > Any thoughts?
          >
          > Best,
          > Nathan McKnight
          > www.nathanmcknight.com
          >
          > Nathan Bellomy
          > Assistant Editor, Science
          > McGraw-Hill School Solutions Group
          > 8787 Orion Place | Columbus, OH 43240
          > Phone: 614-430-4990 | Fax: 614-430-4403
          > nathan_bellomy@...
          >
          > The difference between
          > theory and practice
          > is smaller in theory
          > than it is in practice.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ARTHUR A. JONES
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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