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Re: Toledo

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  • faltin2001
    ... Hi Oscar, can you be a bit more precise please. Which Roman legions were driven out of Spain by the Visigoths? The Visigoths were the Roman federate army.
    Message 1 of 53 , Jul 4 10:49 AM
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > --- faltin2001 <d.faltin@...> wrote:
      >
      > > it should stand as unclear dirk....when the goths
      > invaded spain it contends that they drove out other
      > enemys there which included the roman legions there
      > and others, etc....oscar



      Hi Oscar,

      can you be a bit more precise please. Which Roman legions were driven
      out of Spain by the Visigoths? The Visigoths were the Roman federate
      army. I.e. they were employed by Rome to drive out the Vandals, Alans
      and Sueves. When The Romans thought the the Visigoths were doing too
      good a job at it they ordered them back from Spain to settle in Gaul.
      The purpose here was to use them against the Bagaudae. After Euric,
      however, the Visigothic kingdom in Gaul went into decline and in 507
      AD they were defeated by the Francs and the remnants of the Visigoths
      fled to Spain.

      So again, which Roman legions were driven out of Spain by the
      Visigoths? What we call the Visigoths, was a federate army, dressed,
      fed, equipped and commanded by Rome. I recommend Herwig Wolfram's
      standard work on the Goths for the basic tenants of Gothic history.

      Cheers,

      Dirk














      > > Hi Oscar,
      > >
      > > are the many question marks an expression of
      > > disbelief or a sign that
      > > you are unclear about the content of my comment?
      > >
      > > Just to clarify, there is really no doubt today that
      > > the Visigoths
      > > who settled in Spain after 507 didn't speak Gothic,
      > > but Latin or
      > > better a Latin military pidgin that included
      > > Germanic terms. The fact
      > > that all royal documents issued by Visigothic kings
      > > are in Latin
      > > shouldn't surprise. The same is true for Italy. Yet,
      > > even in private
      > > and Arian church documents there is no use and not
      > > even a reference
      > > to an other language, let alone Gothic. In Italy at
      > > least some
      > > private and clerical documents use Gothic, albeit in
      > > a static, archic
      > > and formulaic way that shows that the language was
      > > more or less dead
      > > already in daily use.
      > >
      > > Also, like in Italy, Visigothic kings never seem to
      > > have need for
      > > interpreters. They can speak freely communicated
      > > with the natives,
      > > which would at least require them to have been
      > > bilingual. Finally,
      > > the Frankish Tabula Gentes of 550 AD suggests
      > > directly that the
      > > Visigoths of Spain were Latin-speakers.
      > >
      > > I suppose the federate army under Wallia who entered
      > > Spain in the
      > > early 5th century would have been mostly
      > > Gothic/Germanic speaking.
      > > Yet, in the subsequent 3 or 4 generations in Gaul
      > > Gothic was no doubt
      > > abandoned in favour of Latin. When the Gothic
      > > kingdom was destroyed
      > > by the Franks in 507, the remaining refugees who
      > > fled to Spain would
      > > have ben Latin/Romanic speakers. And again, the
      > > documentary evidence
      > > of the subsequent decades allows for no other
      > > conclusion.
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > > Dirk
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA
      > > <duke.co@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > ????????????
      > > >
      > > > faltin2001 <d.faltin@> wrote: --- In
      > > gothic-
      > > l@yahoogroups.com, "Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard"
      > > > <manielombard@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Perhaps I've used an unsuitable font, so here a
      > > repost:
      > > > >
      > > > > Could Tulaytula, the Arabic form of Toledo, have
      > >
      > > > > been derived from *Tôlêtula", a Gothic
      > > hypocorism of *Tôlêtô <
      > > Latin
      > > > > Tôlêtum? Perhaps *Taúlêtô should be regarded as
      > > the Gothic etymon
      > > > > (long unstressed "ô" having merged in Vulgar
      > > Latin with
      > > short /o/,
      > > > and
      > > > > seeing that Arabic uses a short "u" preceded by
      > > an emphatic t, in
      > > > > order to reproduce an "o"; long "ê" is given as
      > > "ay" [= "ê" in
      > > spoken
      > > > > Arabic]), which would give *Taúlêtula.
      > > >
      > > > Hi,
      > > >
      > > > I don't think so, because the Goths in Spain
      > > didn't speak Gothic,
      > > but
      > > > Latin or some vulgar Latin with a few
      > > Germanic/Gothic remnants. The
      > > > Tabula gentes of about 550AD suggests so, and
      > > there is no hint that
      > > > they had any difficulties communicating with the
      > > local population
      > > in
      > > > Romanic without interpretors.There is also no
      > > indication that
      > > written
      > > > Gothic was used in Gaul or Spain. After all, the
      > > Goths in Gaul and
      > > > Spain were a Roman federate army, which also
      > > included many Roman
      > > > provincials and Latin was no doubt the lingua
      > > franca of the various
      > > > western Gothic groups since the 5th century.
      > > >
      > > > Cheers,
      > > > Dirk
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > > removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Michael Erwin
      Hails, I m afraid your email formatting is screwed up and I can t reply below. The map shows dense concentrations of Germanic place-names in the far northwest,
      Message 53 of 53 , Jul 22 4:52 PM
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        Hails,

        I'm afraid your email formatting is screwed up and I can't reply
        below. The map shows dense concentrations of Germanic place-names in
        the far northwest, i.e. the Swabisk area, a local concentration in
        northern Catalonia, and few elsewhere. I think this shows that they
        are better at identifying West-Germanic place-names than East-
        Germanic ones, and nothing else.

        Mike

        On Jul 18, 2007, at 4:39 PM, Rydwlf wrote:
        > Hi there,
        >
        > I have the feeling that the issue of Spanish toponimes of germanic
        > origin has been debated some time in the past in this same list. I
        > am sure about the germanic (specially gothic) origin of some
        > settlements, mostly villages (that still retain the name). There is
        > a high number of examples.
        >
        > I have done some research with Google but all the information I
        > find is quite fragmentary. Anyway if you're interested I can try to
        > give a list of webpages dealing with the issue (and mentioning
        > quite a lot of examples), and some book references.
        >
        > Figure 15 in the following page can give a rough idea of the
        > distribution of toponimes of germanic origin in Iberia.
        > Unfortunately I cannot quote the sources, but the author probably
        > does so in some page of his work (sorry but I'm short of time today).
        > http://libro.uca.edu/stanislawski/portugal.htm
        >
        > Hope it helps,
        > Ryd.



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