Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Toledo

Expand Messages
  • gutdwala
    Well, I was curious about the Tabula Gentes and what it says, and googling it all I came up with was an old post from 04 (http://
    Message 1 of 53 , Jul 3, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Well, I was curious about the Tabula Gentes and what it says, and
      googling it all I came up with was an old post from '04 (http://
      listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0406&L=gothic-
      l&D=1&P=12289).

      'Not surprising, since the Visigoths in Spain dropped their Gothic
      language likely before the middle of the 6th century, in fact it was
      likely already in decline when the Goths arrived theie after their
      defeat in 507AD. The Frankish 'tabula gentes' (ca. 550AD) calls the
      Visigoths the 'Latin speaking Goths' to distinguish them from the
      Ostrogoths.'

      But since that's another post by faltin, it doesn't help settle the
      matter much. Does anyone have access to the actual document?



      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, macmaster@... wrote:
      >
      > I'm not so sure; using the Normans as a template, we see that they
      were
      > using Germanic names long after they had adopted French, English,
      and
      > Italian.
      > We also find the same with other Germanic groups that were
      indisputably
      > speaking Romance languages - the Lombards come to mind.
      > And, to this day, a great many Spanish, French, and Italian given
      names
      > reflect Gothic, Frankish, Norse, and Lombard origins.
      >
      >
      > OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
      > > i can only say with dispute in the case with faltin ......think
      about all
      > > the gothic chieftains thru the centuries in being their names as
      > > germanic-gothic......it sounds odd that all these gothic kings
      thru time
      > > have gothic names but their speaking another language.......oscar
      > >
      > > Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote: We might compare,
      > > as best we can, reconstructed linguistic frontiers from c. 300
      with those
      > > from c. 800. The West Germanic languages did expand, Anglo-
      Frisian largely
      > > replacing Latin and Welsh in the British Lowlands, and Dutch-
      German
      > > expanding into the Low Countries, Rhineland, Switzerland, and the
      upper
      > > Danube to the Alps. The East
      > > Germanic languages seem to disappear outside the Crimea and
      possibly
      > > other enclaves as the Slavic languages spread... Arabic also
      spreads.
      > >
      > > Gothic never had the religious importance of Latin or Arabic. If
      it
      > > was not the majority language in Gutþiuda, it was the most
      important (and
      > > the various histories nowhere suggest local language/trade
      > > language/prestige language divisions), was adopted for that
      reason, and
      > > was supplemented by Greek and Latin for the same reason as early
      as
      > > Wulfila's own exile.
      > >
      > >
      > > The size and demographics of the exile groups remain largely
      unknown.
      > > Refugee populations tend to have slightly higher proportions of
      women
      > > and children than most populations, and the same may have applied
      to the
      > > refugees of 376. I think there were multiple mass migrations into
      the
      > > Balkans, starting with 376, and smaller migrations, starting in
      > > 348, which could have changed the linguistic landscape in the
      Balkans
      > > just as other migrations changed the linguistic landscape in
      England. (Even
      > > if the total migration only amounts to 10-30% of the regional
      population).
      > > However, Slavic-speakers repeated the process in the
      > > same parts of the Balkans. I think there were much smaller, and
      more
      > > characteristically military, campaigns into Italy, Gaul, and
      Spain.
      > >
      > > The name Totila, as has been noted elsewhere, is not old Gothic.
      It
      > > involves an additional sound-shift. This suggests living,
      primarily spoken,
      > > language, as well as contact with West-Germanic dialects.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Michael Erwin
      Hails, I m afraid your email formatting is screwed up and I can t reply below. The map shows dense concentrations of Germanic place-names in the far northwest,
      Message 53 of 53 , Jul 22, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Hails,

        I'm afraid your email formatting is screwed up and I can't reply
        below. The map shows dense concentrations of Germanic place-names in
        the far northwest, i.e. the Swabisk area, a local concentration in
        northern Catalonia, and few elsewhere. I think this shows that they
        are better at identifying West-Germanic place-names than East-
        Germanic ones, and nothing else.

        Mike

        On Jul 18, 2007, at 4:39 PM, Rydwlf wrote:
        > Hi there,
        >
        > I have the feeling that the issue of Spanish toponimes of germanic
        > origin has been debated some time in the past in this same list. I
        > am sure about the germanic (specially gothic) origin of some
        > settlements, mostly villages (that still retain the name). There is
        > a high number of examples.
        >
        > I have done some research with Google but all the information I
        > find is quite fragmentary. Anyway if you're interested I can try to
        > give a list of webpages dealing with the issue (and mentioning
        > quite a lot of examples), and some book references.
        >
        > Figure 15 in the following page can give a rough idea of the
        > distribution of toponimes of germanic origin in Iberia.
        > Unfortunately I cannot quote the sources, but the author probably
        > does so in some page of his work (sorry but I'm short of time today).
        > http://libro.uca.edu/stanislawski/portugal.htm
        >
        > Hope it helps,
        > Ryd.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.