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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Toledo

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  • macmaster@riseup.net
    I m not so sure; using the Normans as a template, we see that they were using Germanic names long after they had adopted French, English, and Italian. We also
    Message 1 of 53 , Jul 3, 2007
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      I'm not so sure; using the Normans as a template, we see that they were
      using Germanic names long after they had adopted French, English, and
      Italian.
      We also find the same with other Germanic groups that were indisputably
      speaking Romance languages - the Lombards come to mind.
      And, to this day, a great many Spanish, French, and Italian given names
      reflect Gothic, Frankish, Norse, and Lombard origins.


      OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
      > i can only say with dispute in the case with faltin ......think about all
      > the gothic chieftains thru the centuries in being their names as
      > germanic-gothic......it sounds odd that all these gothic kings thru time
      > have gothic names but their speaking another language.......oscar
      >
      > Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote: We might compare,
      > as best we can, reconstructed linguistic frontiers from c. 300 with those
      > from c. 800. The West Germanic languages did expand, Anglo-Frisian largely
      > replacing Latin and Welsh in the British Lowlands, and Dutch-German
      > expanding into the Low Countries, Rhineland, Switzerland, and the upper
      > Danube to the Alps. The East
      > Germanic languages seem to disappear outside the Crimea and possibly
      > other enclaves as the Slavic languages spread... Arabic also spreads.
      >
      > Gothic never had the religious importance of Latin or Arabic. If it
      > was not the majority language in Gutþiuda, it was the most important (and
      > the various histories nowhere suggest local language/trade
      > language/prestige language divisions), was adopted for that reason, and
      > was supplemented by Greek and Latin for the same reason as early as
      > Wulfila's own exile.
      >
      >
      > The size and demographics of the exile groups remain largely unknown.
      > Refugee populations tend to have slightly higher proportions of women
      > and children than most populations, and the same may have applied to the
      > refugees of 376. I think there were multiple mass migrations into the
      > Balkans, starting with 376, and smaller migrations, starting in
      > 348, which could have changed the linguistic landscape in the Balkans
      > just as other migrations changed the linguistic landscape in England. (Even
      > if the total migration only amounts to 10-30% of the regional population).
      > However, Slavic-speakers repeated the process in the
      > same parts of the Balkans. I think there were much smaller, and more
      > characteristically military, campaigns into Italy, Gaul, and Spain.
      >
      > The name Totila, as has been noted elsewhere, is not old Gothic. It
      > involves an additional sound-shift. This suggests living, primarily spoken,
      > language, as well as contact with West-Germanic dialects.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
    • Michael Erwin
      Hails, I m afraid your email formatting is screwed up and I can t reply below. The map shows dense concentrations of Germanic place-names in the far northwest,
      Message 53 of 53 , Jul 22, 2007
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        Hails,

        I'm afraid your email formatting is screwed up and I can't reply
        below. The map shows dense concentrations of Germanic place-names in
        the far northwest, i.e. the Swabisk area, a local concentration in
        northern Catalonia, and few elsewhere. I think this shows that they
        are better at identifying West-Germanic place-names than East-
        Germanic ones, and nothing else.

        Mike

        On Jul 18, 2007, at 4:39 PM, Rydwlf wrote:
        > Hi there,
        >
        > I have the feeling that the issue of Spanish toponimes of germanic
        > origin has been debated some time in the past in this same list. I
        > am sure about the germanic (specially gothic) origin of some
        > settlements, mostly villages (that still retain the name). There is
        > a high number of examples.
        >
        > I have done some research with Google but all the information I
        > find is quite fragmentary. Anyway if you're interested I can try to
        > give a list of webpages dealing with the issue (and mentioning
        > quite a lot of examples), and some book references.
        >
        > Figure 15 in the following page can give a rough idea of the
        > distribution of toponimes of germanic origin in Iberia.
        > Unfortunately I cannot quote the sources, but the author probably
        > does so in some page of his work (sorry but I'm short of time today).
        > http://libro.uca.edu/stanislawski/portugal.htm
        >
        > Hope it helps,
        > Ryd.



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