Re: [gothic-l] Re: Toledo
- I'm not so sure; using the Normans as a template, we see that they were
using Germanic names long after they had adopted French, English, and
We also find the same with other Germanic groups that were indisputably
speaking Romance languages - the Lombards come to mind.
And, to this day, a great many Spanish, French, and Italian given names
reflect Gothic, Frankish, Norse, and Lombard origins.
OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
> i can only say with dispute in the case with faltin ......think about all
> the gothic chieftains thru the centuries in being their names as
> germanic-gothic......it sounds odd that all these gothic kings thru time
> have gothic names but their speaking another language.......oscar
> Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote: We might compare,
> as best we can, reconstructed linguistic frontiers from c. 300 with those
> from c. 800. The West Germanic languages did expand, Anglo-Frisian largely
> replacing Latin and Welsh in the British Lowlands, and Dutch-German
> expanding into the Low Countries, Rhineland, Switzerland, and the upper
> Danube to the Alps. The East
> Germanic languages seem to disappear outside the Crimea and possibly
> other enclaves as the Slavic languages spread... Arabic also spreads.
> Gothic never had the religious importance of Latin or Arabic. If it
> was not the majority language in Gutþiuda, it was the most important (and
> the various histories nowhere suggest local language/trade
> language/prestige language divisions), was adopted for that reason, and
> was supplemented by Greek and Latin for the same reason as early as
> Wulfila's own exile.
> The size and demographics of the exile groups remain largely unknown.
> Refugee populations tend to have slightly higher proportions of women
> and children than most populations, and the same may have applied to the
> refugees of 376. I think there were multiple mass migrations into the
> Balkans, starting with 376, and smaller migrations, starting in
> 348, which could have changed the linguistic landscape in the Balkans
> just as other migrations changed the linguistic landscape in England. (Even
> if the total migration only amounts to 10-30% of the regional population).
> However, Slavic-speakers repeated the process in the
> same parts of the Balkans. I think there were much smaller, and more
> characteristically military, campaigns into Italy, Gaul, and Spain.
> The name Totila, as has been noted elsewhere, is not old Gothic. It
> involves an additional sound-shift. This suggests living, primarily spoken,
> language, as well as contact with West-Germanic dialects.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm afraid your email formatting is screwed up and I can't reply
below. The map shows dense concentrations of Germanic place-names in
the far northwest, i.e. the Swabisk area, a local concentration in
northern Catalonia, and few elsewhere. I think this shows that they
are better at identifying West-Germanic place-names than East-
Germanic ones, and nothing else.
On Jul 18, 2007, at 4:39 PM, Rydwlf wrote:
> Hi there,
> I have the feeling that the issue of Spanish toponimes of germanic
> origin has been debated some time in the past in this same list. I
> am sure about the germanic (specially gothic) origin of some
> settlements, mostly villages (that still retain the name). There is
> a high number of examples.
> I have done some research with Google but all the information I
> find is quite fragmentary. Anyway if you're interested I can try to
> give a list of webpages dealing with the issue (and mentioning
> quite a lot of examples), and some book references.
> Figure 15 in the following page can give a rough idea of the
> distribution of toponimes of germanic origin in Iberia.
> Unfortunately I cannot quote the sources, but the author probably
> does so in some page of his work (sorry but I'm short of time today).
> Hope it helps,
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]