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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Toledo

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  • macmaster@riseup.net
    How long did it take Norse to die out among the Normans? Certainly less than a century (from 911 settlement to no later than the first quarter of the
    Message 1 of 53 , Jul 2, 2007
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      How long did it take Norse to die out among the Normans?
      Certainly less than a century (from 911 settlement to no later than the
      first quarter of the eleventh). However, the Normans continued to have a
      consciousness as a people of Scandinavian descent for at least two
      centuries after that.
      I'd suspect a similar process amongst the Gothic rulers of Spain & Italy.

      TM

      OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
      >

      > --- faltin2001 <d.faltin@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >> it should stand as unclear dirk....when the goths
      > invaded spain it contends that they drove out other enemys there which
      > included the roman legions there and others, etc....oscar
      >> Hi Oscar,
      >>
      >>
      >> are the many question marks an expression of disbelief or a sign that you
      >> are unclear about the content of my comment?
      >>
      >> Just to clarify, there is really no doubt today that
      >> the Visigoths who settled in Spain after 507 didn't speak Gothic, but
      >> Latin or
      >> better a Latin military pidgin that included Germanic terms. The fact
      >> that all royal documents issued by Visigothic kings are in Latin shouldn't
      >> surprise. The same is true for Italy. Yet, even in private and Arian
      >> church documents there is no use and not even a reference to an other
      >> language, let alone Gothic. In Italy at least some private and clerical
      >> documents use Gothic, albeit in a static, archic and formulaic way that
      >> shows that the language was more or less dead already in daily use.
      >>
      >> Also, like in Italy, Visigothic kings never seem to
      >> have need for interpreters. They can speak freely communicated with the
      >> natives, which would at least require them to have been bilingual.
      >> Finally,
      >> the Frankish Tabula Gentes of 550 AD suggests directly that the Visigoths
      >> of Spain were Latin-speakers.
      >>
      >> I suppose the federate army under Wallia who entered
      >> Spain in the
      >> early 5th century would have been mostly Gothic/Germanic speaking.
      >> Yet, in the subsequent 3 or 4 generations in Gaul
      >> Gothic was no doubt
      >> abandoned in favour of Latin. When the Gothic kingdom was destroyed by the
      >> Franks in 507, the remaining refugees who
      >> fled to Spain would have ben Latin/Romanic speakers. And again, the
      >> documentary evidence of the subsequent decades allows for no other
      >> conclusion.
      >>
      >> Cheers,
      >> Dirk
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA
      >> <duke.co@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>>
      >>> ????????????
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> faltin2001 <d.faltin@...> wrote: --- In
      >> gothic- l@yahoogroups.com, "Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard"
      >>> <manielombard@> wrote:
      >>>
      >>>>
      >>>> Perhaps I've used an unsuitable font, so here a
      >>>>
      >> repost:
      >>
      >>>>
      >>>> Could Tulaytula, the Arabic form of Toledo, have
      >>>>
      >>
      >>>> been derived from *Tôlêtula", a Gothic
      >> hypocorism of *Tôlêtô < Latin
      >>
      >>>> Tôlêtum? Perhaps *Taúlêtô should be regarded as
      >>>>
      >> the Gothic etymon
      >>>> (long unstressed "ô" having merged in Vulgar
      >>>>
      >> Latin with
      >> short /o/,
      >>> and
      >>>> seeing that Arabic uses a short "u" preceded by
      >> an emphatic t, in
      >>>> order to reproduce an "o"; long "ê" is given as
      >> "ay" [= "ê" in
      >> spoken
      >>>> Arabic]), which would give *Taúlêtula.
      >>>>
      >>>
      >>> Hi,
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> I don't think so, because the Goths in Spain
      >>>
      >> didn't speak Gothic, but
      >>> Latin or some vulgar Latin with a few
      >>>
      >> Germanic/Gothic remnants. The
      >>
      >>> Tabula gentes of about 550AD suggests so, and
      >>>
      >> there is no hint that
      >>> they had any difficulties communicating with the
      >> local population in
      >>> Romanic without interpretors.There is also no
      >>>
      >> indication that written
      >>> Gothic was used in Gaul or Spain. After all, the
      >>>
      >> Goths in Gaul and
      >>
      >>> Spain were a Roman federate army, which also
      >>>
      >> included many Roman
      >>> provincials and Latin was no doubt the lingua
      >> franca of the various
      >>> western Gothic groups since the 5th century.
      >>>
      >>> Cheers,
      >>> Dirk
      >>>
      >>>
    • Michael Erwin
      Hails, I m afraid your email formatting is screwed up and I can t reply below. The map shows dense concentrations of Germanic place-names in the far northwest,
      Message 53 of 53 , Jul 22, 2007
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        Hails,

        I'm afraid your email formatting is screwed up and I can't reply
        below. The map shows dense concentrations of Germanic place-names in
        the far northwest, i.e. the Swabisk area, a local concentration in
        northern Catalonia, and few elsewhere. I think this shows that they
        are better at identifying West-Germanic place-names than East-
        Germanic ones, and nothing else.

        Mike

        On Jul 18, 2007, at 4:39 PM, Rydwlf wrote:
        > Hi there,
        >
        > I have the feeling that the issue of Spanish toponimes of germanic
        > origin has been debated some time in the past in this same list. I
        > am sure about the germanic (specially gothic) origin of some
        > settlements, mostly villages (that still retain the name). There is
        > a high number of examples.
        >
        > I have done some research with Google but all the information I
        > find is quite fragmentary. Anyway if you're interested I can try to
        > give a list of webpages dealing with the issue (and mentioning
        > quite a lot of examples), and some book references.
        >
        > Figure 15 in the following page can give a rough idea of the
        > distribution of toponimes of germanic origin in Iberia.
        > Unfortunately I cannot quote the sources, but the author probably
        > does so in some page of his work (sorry but I'm short of time today).
        > http://libro.uca.edu/stanislawski/portugal.htm
        >
        > Hope it helps,
        > Ryd.



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