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Gothic woman

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  • Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard
    Háils again A Goth being a Guta , what would a female Goth be called? Gutiska (determ.: so Gutisko)? Regards Manie
    Message 1 of 9 , May 26, 2007
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      Háils again

      A Goth being a "Guta", what would a female Goth be called? "Gutiska"
      (determ.: so Gutisko)?

      Regards
      Manie
    • ualarauans
      ... I think it s Guto F.-on (cf. personal names in Getica Ostrogotho and Thiudigotho – Get. 297, Theodoric s daughters, Go. *Austraguto resp. Þiudiguto).
      Message 2 of 9 , May 26, 2007
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard"
        <manielombard@...> wrote:
        >
        > Háils again
        >
        > A Goth being a "Guta", what would a female Goth be called? "Gutiska"
        > (determ.: so Gutisko)?

        I think it's Guto F.-on (cf. personal names in Getica Ostrogotho and
        Thiudigotho – Get. 297, Theodoric's daughters, Go. *Austraguto resp.
        Þiudiguto).

        Ualarauans
      • Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard
        So ethonyms deriving from mn-stems would have: Anglo-Saxon: *Aggila-sahsa , Anglo-Saxon woman *Aggila-sahso , British man: *Brita , British woman: *Brito
        Message 3 of 9 , May 27, 2007
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          So ethonyms deriving from mn-stems would have:

          Anglo-Saxon: "*Aggila-sahsa", Anglo-Saxon woman "*Aggila-sahso",
          British man: "*Brita", British woman: "*Brito"
          Estonian: "*Aísta", Estonian woman: "*Aísto"
          Goth: "Guta", Gothic woman: "Guto"
          Finn: "*Finna", Finish woman: "*Finno"
          Frenchman: "*Fragka", French woman: "*Fragko"
          Norwegian: "*Naúrþa-manna", Norwegian woman: "*Naúrþa-manno"
          (or "*Naúrþa-qens", "*Naúrþa-qino"?)
          Suabian: "*Sweba", Suabian woman: "*Swebo"

          ms-stem:
          Roman: "*Walhs", Roman woman: "*Walhini" (fjo-stem)
          Syrian: "Saúr", Syrian woman: "Saúrini" (fjo-stem)

          mi-stem: declined the same?

          Dane: "*Dans", Danish woman "*Dans" (fi-stem; or "*Danini", fjo-
          stem?)
          Hun: "*Huns", Hunnic woman "*Huns" (fi-stem; or "*Hunini", fjo-stem?)

          mu-stem:

          Arab: "*Arabus", Arab woman "*Arabus" (fu-stem; or "*Arabini", fjo-
          stem, "*Arabo", fn-stem?)

          mr-stem: ?

          African: "*Afar", African woman: "*Afar" (fr-stem; or "*Afarini",
          fjo-stem?)
          Hungarian: "*Uggar", Hungarian woman: "*Uggar" (fr-stem;
          or "*Uggarini", fjo-stem?)

          German: "*Þiudisks" (det.: "*sa Þiudiska"), German
          woman: "*Þiudiska" (det.: "*so Þiudisko")
        • Michael Erwin
          On May 27, 2007, at 5:42 AM, Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard wrote: ... I don t think the Goths would use Þiudisks to describe any other group. Most people name
          Message 4 of 9 , May 27, 2007
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            On May 27, 2007, at 5:42 AM, Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard wrote:

            Good suggestions, but one nitpick:

            > German: "*Þiudisks" (det.: "*sa Þiudiska"), German
            > woman: "*Þiudiska" (det.: "*so Þiudisko")

            I don't think the Goths would use Þiudisks to describe any other
            group. Most people name themselves "the folks" (and their neighbors
            "the people who talk funny").

            I think it more likely that one or another tribal name (probably that
            of the Suebi, possibly thatg of the Franks) would be extended to the
            German-Dutch group in general. So either:

            German man: sa *Swabiska, German woman: sa *Swabisko
            and
            > Frenchman: "*Fragka", French woman: "*Fragko"

            Or
            German man: *Fragka, German woman: *Fragko
            and perhaps
            Frenchman: *Galls, Frenchwoman: ???
          • ualarauans
            I think you re right about *Sahsa:Sahso, *Guta:Guto, *Fragka:Fragko being weak stems if we consider the evidence of other Old Germanic languages. Still, the
            Message 5 of 9 , May 27, 2007
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              I think you're right about *Sahsa:Sahso, *Guta:Guto, *Fragka:Fragko
              being weak stems if we consider the evidence of other Old Germanic
              languages. Still, the same evidence would speak for Finns, Swefs,
              Aists being strong stems (either a- or i-). If I remember right,
              Finnos and Swebos tend to be a-stems (like Walhos), while Aisteis –
              an i-stem. But diffenet languages have different preferences here,
              as LN used to point out. The feminine could be formed in the way you
              suggested, namely with the suffix –ini F.-jo: (sing.) Finnini,
              Swebini, Aistini respectively.

              "Anglo-Saxon" can also be Agglisahsa, if Agg(i)ls is an i-stem, like
              in OE.

              I don't remember exactly if ON Bretar were weak or strong (I mean
              the grammar). Go. Britans/Britos pl.? Especially if we consider
              Middle Latin Britones...

              Naurþramanna and Naurþraqino are a nice couple. Another option is to
              form the ethnonym from the word Naurþ(r)awigs.

              I'd strongly doubt that any new words, and loanwords in particular,
              could have entered the archaic class of r-stems which had been kept
              isolated since PIE. Much more probable seems the option that Afar(s)
              and Uggar(s) would have become vocalic stems (a- or i-), and still
              more likely that they would have been used without the /a/ in the
              second syllable: Afrs and Uggrs respectively.

              Germans could be described by choosing one of the continental West
              Germanic ethnonyms, as Michael points out. Maybe Sahsans (like ON)?
              Or maybe you would have to make a distinction every time depending
              on where the given German comes from: (Niþra-)Sahsa:Sahso,
              Reinafragka:-fragko, Mikilabaurgja:-baurgjo ;-)

              For the neighbours of the Aisteis, maybe Lattiland, Latteis M.-i
              pl., Lattisks adj. for Latvia (Latvians, Latvian resp.) and Leiþawi
              F.-jo, Leiþaujans M.-an pl., Leiþaujisks adj. for Lithuania(n)?

              I've got an idea than maybe for modern ethnonyms we could use the
              derived –isk- form, to distinguish them from the old tribal names,
              and in accord with historical development here. E.g. the Franks are
              Fragkans, but the French are Fragkiskans (sg. masc. Fragkiska, fem.
              Fragkisko) – cf. Fr. Francais < Mlat. Franciscus < Frank. Frankisk.
              The same with Danes (Daneis and Daniskans, Modern Danish "Dansker"),
              and maybe with British (Britiskans)?

              Ualarauans
            • llama_nom
              ... Weak, at least in Modern Icelandic: http://www.lexis.hi.is/beygingarlysing/no/kk/vb/Breti.html
              Message 6 of 9 , May 28, 2007
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                > > I don't remember exactly if ON Bretar were weak or strong (I mean
                > the grammar). Go. Britans/Britos pl.? Especially if we consider
                > Middle Latin Britones...

                Weak, at least in Modern Icelandic:

                http://www.lexis.hi.is/beygingarlysing/no/kk/vb/Breti.html
              • Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard
                ... And what about mu-stems (I mean old names here)? Arab: *Arabus , Arab woman *Arabus (fu-stem; or *Arabini , fjo- stem, *Arabo , fn-stem?) Manie
                Message 7 of 9 , May 28, 2007
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                  > I've got an idea than maybe for modern ethnonyms we could use the
                  > derived –isk- form, to distinguish them from the old tribal names,
                  > and in accord with historical development here. E.g. the Franks are
                  > Fragkans, but the French are Fragkiskans (sg. masc. Fragkiska, fem.
                  > Fragkisko) – cf. Fr. Francais < Mlat. Franciscus < Frank. Frankisk.
                  > The same with Danes (Daneis and Daniskans, Modern Danish "Dansker"),
                  > and maybe with British (Britiskans)?


                  And what about mu-stems (I mean old names here)?

                  Arab: "*Arabus", Arab woman "*Arabus" (fu-stem; or "*Arabini", fjo-
                  stem, "*Arabo", fn-stem?)

                  Manie
                • ualarauans
                  ... Could it also be *Arabuni F.-jo? I mean the case that the suffix takes the form –uni after u-stems, like in ON ásynja F.-jon, derived from áss M.-u.
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 28, 2007
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                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard"
                    <manielombard@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > And what about mu-stems (I mean old names here)?
                    >
                    > Arab: "*Arabus", Arab woman "*Arabus" (fu-stem; or "*Arabini", fjo-
                    > stem, "*Arabo", fn-stem?)

                    Could it also be *Arabuni F.-jo? I mean the case that the suffix
                    takes the form –uni after u-stems, like in ON ásynja F.-jon, derived
                    from áss M.-u. Go. *ansuni F.-jo (*ansus M.-u)?

                    > > I've got an idea than maybe for modern ethnonyms we could use the
                    > > derived –isk- form, to distinguish them from the old tribal
                    names,
                    > > and in accord with historical development here. E.g. the Franks
                    are
                    > > Fragkans, but the French are Fragkiskans (sg. masc. Fragkiska,
                    fem.
                    > > Fragkisko) – cf. Fr. Francais < Mlat. Franciscus < Frank.
                    Frankisk.
                    > > The same with Danes (Daneis and Daniskans, Modern
                    Danish "Dansker"),
                    > > and maybe with British (Britiskans)?

                    I wonder is this process (forming ethnonyms with the –isk-suffix)
                    somehow connected with the appearance of the substantivized
                    adjective manniska- in the sense of "human being" in continental
                    Germanic – cf. NHG Mensch, Dutch mens, Danish menneske etc.?

                    Ualarauans
                  • Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard
                    Antje Casaretto, Nominale Wortbildung der gotischen Sprache, Heidelberg 2004, p. 590: Für Motionsbildungen sind im Gotischen verschiedene Suffixe belegt.
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 30, 2007
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                      Antje Casaretto, Nominale Wortbildung der gotischen Sprache,
                      Heidelberg 2004, p. 590:


                      "Für Motionsbildungen sind im Gotischen verschiedene Suffixe belegt.
                      Eindeutig produktiv ist dabei nur germ. -"(i)njô"-, das im Gotischen
                      zwar nur einmal bezeugt ist, aber eine Neubildung zu einem Lehnwort
                      enthält, so daß das Fehlen weiterer Beispiele Zufall sein muß, vgl.
                      got. "Saurini" f. 'Syrerin' ("Saur" m. 'Syrer'). Daneben sind einige
                      Motionsfeminina mit germ. -"jô"- belegt, bei denen es sich um die
                      aus dem Germanischen ererbten got. "mawi" 'Mädchen'
                      ("magus" 'Knabe', vgl. an. "mær"), und "þiwi" f. 'Magd'
                      ("þius"* 'Diener', vgl. an. "þý") sowie das eventuell
                      einzelsprachlich gebildete got. "frijondi"* 'Freundin'
                      ("frijonds" 'Freund') handelt. Offenbar hatte bereits im Gotischen
                      der in den späteren nord- und westgermanischen Sprachen vollendete
                      Ablösungsprozess begonen, in dem das ererbte Suffix germ. -"jo"-
                      durch das komplexe Suffix -"(i)njô"- abgelöst wurde.

                      Daneben sind noch einige Motionsfeminina mit germ. -"ôn"- belegt,
                      bei denen es sich jedoch überwiegend um germanische Bildungen
                      handelt, vgl. got. "fauho"* 'Füchsin' (neben an. "fóa",
                      ahd. "foha"), got. "kalbo*" 'Kalbe' (neben ahd. "kalba"),
                      got. "garazno"* 'Nachbarin' (neben an. "granna"). Eine mögliche
                      Neubildung ist got. "gajuko" f. 'Genossin' ("gajuka"* m. 'Genosse')."


                      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard"
                      > <manielombard@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > And what about mu-stems (I mean old names here)?
                      > >
                      > > Arab: "*Arabus", Arab woman "*Arabus" (fu-stem; or "*Arabini",
                      fjo-
                      > > stem, "*Arabo", fn-stem?)
                      >
                      > Could it also be *Arabuni F.-jo? I mean the case that the suffix
                      > takes the form –uni after u-stems, like in ON ásynja F.-jon,
                      derived
                      > from áss M.-u. Go. *ansuni F.-jo (*ansus M.-u)?
                      >
                      > > > I've got an idea than maybe for modern ethnonyms we could use
                      the
                      > > > derived –isk- form, to distinguish them from the old tribal
                      > names,
                      > > > and in accord with historical development here. E.g. the
                      Franks
                      > are
                      > > > Fragkans, but the French are Fragkiskans (sg. masc. Fragkiska,
                      > fem.
                      > > > Fragkisko) – cf. Fr. Francais < Mlat. Franciscus < Frank.
                      > Frankisk.
                      > > > The same with Danes (Daneis and Daniskans, Modern
                      > Danish "Dansker"),
                      > > > and maybe with British (Britiskans)?
                      >
                      > I wonder is this process (forming ethnonyms with the –isk-suffix)
                      > somehow connected with the appearance of the substantivized
                      > adjective manniska- in the sense of "human being" in continental
                      > Germanic – cf. NHG Mensch, Dutch mens, Danish menneske etc.?
                      >
                      > Ualarauans
                      >
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