Re: Drus Griutinge - swesa namna (Danapr-?)
- Objections if I try to use some Gothic below?
--- In email@example.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
> Interesting that Danaper / Danaprum should buck the trend of
> river names. Could be significant then... Alternatively, turning
> a little devil's advocatry myself (and ignoring the possible
> could that be because -er was just too convenient in suggesting a
> masculine noun of the Latin second declension?
Jai, mahteig ist. Iþ jabai a(i)r þis gutiskins namins ni fairaihta,
þatist jabai Danaprs so qinakundo was, duhve ni swe Danapris in
Lateiniskon andnuman wesi? So waurdaskaunei jaina in þizai samon
Weikipaidjos insahtai gataiknida ist swe weitwodida in meleinim
spedikrekiskaim. Hvis kunjis was so fraihnan wildedjau. Sokjan jab-
bigitan duginna. Aþþan Danastrum (hvanadrus, andizuh gumakunds
aiþþau unqiukund) jah fram Ammianau Markailleinau þuht ist brukjan.
Aufto jah in Danapra(i) hva gamagi.
That's indeed possible. But if er wasn't a part of the the Gothic
name, i.e. if it was *Danaprs F.i, why not Danapris F. in Latin?
This form is mentioned in the same Wikipedia article as attested
in "the late Greek authors" (DANAPRIS). What gender has it been
there, I wonder? I'll try to find out. But Danastrum acc. (M or N)
for Dniester seems to be used also by Amm. Marcellinus (XXXI.
3.3,5). Could be relevant for Dnieper too.
> Old English river
> names include a lot that seem to be weak feminine: Úse (Ouse), Lýge
> (Lye), Deorwente (Derwent), Wísle (Vistula), Humbre (Humber), Temes
> (Thames). Humbre also indeclinable, Temes also strong feminine,
> sometimes also with Latinate endings. But Fifeldór (Eider), neuter
> due to its second element 'dór' "door". Ilfing (Elbing), ? Rín
> (Rhine), m. or f. -- OHG m., ON f. Dónua (Danube), f. indecl. --
> obviously taken from Latin.
> What do you think to the etymology suggested in the Wikipedia entry
> Dnieper [
> which derives the name from Sarmatian *Da:nu apara "the river to
> rear"? What would the gender of Sarmatian *da:nu be, I wonder?
> the East Germanic peoples had close contacts with the Sarmatians,
> Goths might just have been influenced by that. Or maybe not...
Gamains ist managaim mitons ei Dan(u)s, Danapr(u)s, Danastr(u)s jah
Donawi þana arjaniskan waurdastaf danu in sis haband. Þata magi
Danaus u-stamn fauragaredan. Istu qinakunda aiþþau gumakunds? Bi
anþarana waurdastaf Danapr(a)is jad-Danastr(a)is managos sind in
midjaim mannam razdaleisaim missaqisseis. "Afarahva" jah "Fauraahva"
drunjond sunjaba fraisandeins, iþ aina ist so managaizo skeireino
This is a common opinion that Don, Dnieper, Dniester and Danube
contain the element Iranian da:nu "river". That could account for
the u-stem of Go. Danus "Don". Fem. or masc.? Of the second element
in Dnieper (and Dniester) there are diverse opinions of
linguists. "The river to the rear" and "the river to the front"
sound indeed tempting, but are still only one of the existing
Nist mis iupaþro nih dalaþro atgiban kunnan kuni danaus þis
arjaniskins. Gakunjo is/izos þata nehvisto Samskritisko Danu- jaþþe
gumakundaize jaþþe qinakundaize mwþulaugikeinaize qiuwaihte namo
wisan þugkeiþ. Razda so niuja-allanisko waurdis don, maizaraþjo
dættæ "wato", "ahva" (ufta in ahvanamnam) brukeiþ, aþþan so n.-
allanisko kuni namne ju laggo fralaus, jah swstemo namne izos
agglutinateif warþ (atu Taurkim ganuman?).
Unfortunately I don't know the gender of Iranian da:nu. Its closest
cognate Sanskrit Da:nu as a personal name seems to be used both for
male and female mythological characters. Ossetic has don,
pl. dættæ "water", "river" (often in rivernames), but Ossetic has
long lost the grammatical category of gender in nouns, its nominal
system became agglutinative (under Turkic influence?).
> Should we also consider the possibility of *Danapair or *Danapar
> (masculine or feminine i-stem?; masculine a-stem?), with deletion
> nominative -s after /r/ following a short unstressed syllable?
Jah *Danapar mahteig wisan þugkeiþ.
*Danapar seems possible too.
> I'm not convinced that the kings names would have a bearing on the
> gender of the rivers, since even if the rivers had been feminine,
> kings names would probably be masculine. But then, it's curious
> these two names should occur together. I wonder if it's just
> that "riding" ships is mentioned as one of their skills. Perhaps
> there is some memory behind this verse of a line in some other poem
> where the two names were understood as rivers. In which case, I
> very cautiously be leaning towards a masculine i-stem (rather than
> u-stem, because of the lack of u-umlaut in Old Norse; lack of i-
> is typical in short masculine i-stems).
Jai, gatawida'k þata!
Yes, I did it! :-)
Niujawaurdja þo iupa bruhtona / Neologisms used above
As expected first when trying to write Gothic you find out what
words you really need :-)
word form (cf. Go. gudaskaunei "the form of God", ibnaskauns "equal
in form" - Koebler) waurdaskaunei, fn.
Wikipedia Weikipaidja, -paidia fo.
accusative (G. Wenfall) hvanadrus, mi.
[nominative (G. Werfall) hvasdrus, hvazdrus, mi.]
[dative (G. Wemfall) hvammadrus, mi.]
[genitive (G. Wesfall) hvisdrus, hvizdrus, mi.]
[instrumental (analog.) hvedrus, mi.]
neuter (gramm.) unqiukunds, a.
Iranian, Indo-Iranian (IndoIr. self-name arya) arjanisks, a.
(Indo-)Iranian (noun) (IndoIr. self-name arya) Arja mn., Arjo, fn.
element of a composite word waurdastafs, mi.
stem (gramm.) (OE stemn, stefn; ON stafn; OHG stam) stamns, mi.
linguistically competent razdaleis, a.
to sound (of human voice) (Go. drunjus) drunjon 2.
cognate (of inanimates) gakunjo, nn.
Sanskrit (Sanskr. samskrta "elaborated") samskritisks, a.
mythological (Greek MUQOLOGIKOS) mwþulaugikeins, a.
[mythology (Greek MUQOLOGIA) mwþulaugia, fo.]
person, living being (G. Lebewesen) qiuwaihts, fi/cons.
Ossetic (Osset. Allon "Alan") niuja-allanisks, a.
plural (gramm.) (G. Mehrzahl) maizaraþjo, fn.
hydronym ahvanamo, nn.
system (Greek SUSTHMA) swstemo, nn. (dat. swstemin/swstematin; gen.
swstemins/swstematins; nom., acc. pl. swstemona/swstemata)
agglutinative (NLat. agglutinativus) agglutinateifs (g) (b), a.
Turk (Turkish Türk) Taurks, mi.