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translation of Gk. "cwrein"

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  • thiudans
    Hails, Making my way through the gaps in John. cwrousai below is a pres. act. part. in nom. fem. pl. meaning admitting of or allowing i.e. being able to
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 23, 2007
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      Hails,

      Making my way through the gaps in John.

      cwrousai below is a pres. act. part. in nom. fem. pl. meaning
      "admitting of" or "allowing" i.e. being able to hold up to 2 or 3
      metretes of water. Gamotan (gamotandeis) "be admitted etc." would fit
      a passive meaning but I find no evidence of its use in the active or
      some such construction as *gamotnandeis or *gamotan wisandeis. Would
      Gothic prefer a periphrasis here perhaps using bairan or haban and magan?

      John 2:6

      ἦσαν δὲ ἐκεῖ λίθιναι ὑδρίαι ἓξ κατὰ τὸν καθαρισμὸν τῶν Ἰουδαίων
      κείμεναι χωροῦσαι ἀνὰ μετρητὰς δύο ἢ τρεῖς


      Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of
      purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. (NASB)

      So far I have:

      6. ItH wesun jainar staineine aurkiwe .q. bi tHana gahrainein Iudaie
      gasatidai...

      (Note: I use the partitive genitive for stain. aurk. but .q. is
      understood as a nominative)
    • Giuseppe Pagliarulo
      Hails! ... Good to read about you again, Matthew. It looks like 2Kor 7:2 has something very similar to the case in question: _cwrhsate hmas_, meaning make
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 24, 2007
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        Hails!

        > cwrousai below is a pres. act. part. in nom. fem. pl. meaning
        > "admitting of" or "allowing" i.e. being able to hold up to 2 or 3
        > metretes of water. Gamotan (gamotandeis) "be admitted etc." would fit
        > a passive meaning but I find no evidence of its use in the active or
        > some such construction as *gamotnandeis or *gamotan wisandeis. Would
        > Gothic prefer a periphrasis here perhaps using bairan or haban and magan?

        Good to read about you again, Matthew. It looks like 2Kor 7:2 has something
        very similar to the case in question: _cwrhsate hmas_, meaning "make room
        for us". Here's how Wulfila translates this: _gamoteima in izwis_. So maybe
        a good rendering of John 2:6 would be _in thaimei gamostedun .a. aiththau
        .b. <metrhtas>_.

        Hope this helps

        Iosef

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      • llama_nom
        Hails, Þiuadan! KARA TON KAQARISMON. My guess would be: bi þizai gahraineinai . Or maybe more likely just bi gahraineinai ? bi takes dative with the
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 25, 2007
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          Hails, Þiuadan!

          KARA TON KAQARISMON. My guess would be: 'bi þizai gahraineinai'. Or
          maybe more likely just 'bi gahraineinai'? 'bi' takes dative with the
          sense "in accordance with", as in 'bi witoda' = KATA TON NOMON, etc.
          see Streitberg II. 3(e) [
          http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B019.html ].

          LN



          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hails,
          >
          > Making my way through the gaps in John.
          >
          > cwrousai below is a pres. act. part. in nom. fem. pl. meaning
          > "admitting of" or "allowing" i.e. being able to hold up to 2 or 3
          > metretes of water. Gamotan (gamotandeis) "be admitted etc." would fit
          > a passive meaning but I find no evidence of its use in the active or
          > some such construction as *gamotnandeis or *gamotan wisandeis. Would
          > Gothic prefer a periphrasis here perhaps using bairan or haban and
          magan?
          >
          > John 2:6
          >
          > ἦσαν δὲ ἐκεῖ
          λίθιναι
          ὑδρίαι ἓξ
          κατὰ τὸν
          καθαρισμὸν
          τῶν Ἰουδαίων
          > κείμεναι
          χωροῦσαι ἀνὰ
          μετρητὰς δύο
          ἢ τρεῖς
          >
          >
          > Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of
          > purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. (NASB)
          >
          > So far I have:
          >
          > 6. ItH wesun jainar staineine aurkiwe .q. bi tHana gahrainein Iudaie
          > gasatidai...
          >
          > (Note: I use the partitive genitive for stain. aurk. but .q. is
          > understood as a nominative)
          >
        • thiudans
          Thank you Giuseppe and Llama Nom! Now I have to go back over all my bi usages :) scourge, whip in v. 15 of the same chapter I have rendered *swipo (weak
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 26, 2007
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            Thank you Giuseppe and Llama Nom! Now I have to go back over all my
            'bi' usages :)

            "scourge, whip" in v. 15 of the same chapter I have rendered *swipo
            (weak fem. < Gmc. *swipon). Usbliggwan did not lend itself to a noun
            nor did the Gmc. lexicon show such connections. I Suppose I could have
            made *flagailjo.

            Do you have statistics on what percentage of narrative present forms
            in Greek were translated by preterite in Gothic? Whoever did most of
            the first chapter of John (from this list) has used the present in
            Gothic in this case.

            -Thiudans

            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hails, Þiuadan!
            >
            > KA[T]A TON KAQARISMON. My guess would be: 'bi þizai gahraineinai'. Or
            > maybe more likely just 'bi gahraineinai'? 'bi' takes dative with the
            > sense "in accordance with", as in 'bi witoda' = KATA TON NOMON, etc.
            > see Streitberg II. 3(e) [
            > http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B019.html ].
            >
            > LN
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hails,
            > >
            > > Making my way through the gaps in John.
            > >
            > > cwrousai below is a pres. act. part. in nom. fem. pl. meaning
            > > "admitting of" or "allowing" i.e. being able to hold up to 2 or 3
            > > metretes of water. Gamotan (gamotandeis) "be admitted etc." would fit
            > > a passive meaning but I find no evidence of its use in the active or
            > > some such construction as *gamotnandeis or *gamotan wisandeis. Would
            > > Gothic prefer a periphrasis here perhaps using bairan or haban and
            > magan?
            > >
            > > John 2:6
            > >
            > > ἦσαν δὲ ἐκεῖ
            > λίθιναι
            > ὑδρίαι ἓξ
            > κατὰ τὸν
            > καθαρισμὸν
            > τῶν Ἰουδαίων
            > > κείμεναι
            > χωροῦσαι ἀνὰ
            > μετρητὰς δύο
            > ἢ τρεῖς
            > >
            > >
            > > Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of
            > > purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. (NASB)
            > >
            > > So far I have:
            > >
            > > 6. ItH wesun jainar staineine aurkiwe .q. bi tHana gahrainein Iudaie
            > > gasatidai...
            > >
            > > (Note: I use the partitive genitive for stain. aurk. but .q. is
            > > understood as a nominative)
            > >
            >
          • llama_nom
            ... I don t have any statistics, I m afraid, but Streitberg comments: Ein erzählendes Präsens findet sich nur als Nachahmung der Vorlage; in der Regel wird
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 27, 2007
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you Giuseppe and Llama Nom! Now I have to go back over all my
              > 'bi' usages :)
              >
              > "scourge, whip" in v. 15 of the same chapter I have rendered *swipo
              > (weak fem. < Gmc. *swipon). Usbliggwan did not lend itself to a noun
              > nor did the Gmc. lexicon show such connections. I Suppose I could have
              > made *flagailjo.
              >
              > Do you have statistics on what percentage of narrative present forms
              > in Greek were translated by preterite in Gothic? Whoever did most of
              > the first chapter of John (from this list) has used the present in
              > Gothic in this case.

              I don't have any statistics, I'm afraid, but Streitberg comments:

              Ein erzählendes Präsens findet sich nur als Nachahmung der Vorlage; in
              der Regel wird jedoch das erzälende Präsens der Vorlage im Gotischen
              in das Präteritum verwandelt. Vgl. z. B. jah qaþ imma M 8,4 u. ö. --
              ahma ina ustauh . EKBALLEI Mc 1,12 -- jah galiþun in Kafarnaum .
              EISPOREUONTAI Mc 1,21 u. ö. (Elementarbuch 299, A. 1).

              "A narrative present appears only in imitation of the source text;
              generally however, the narrative present of the source text is turned
              into the preterite in Gothic."

              Mitunter wird auch, abgesehn von erzälenden Präsens, ein Präsens der
              Vorlage durch das Präteritum wierdergegeben, vgl. z. B. J 14,9 swalaud
              melis miþ izwis was . MEQ hUMWN EIMI (Elementarbuch 299, A. 2).

              "Sometimes, aside from instances of the narrative present, a present
              of the source text is rendered with the preterite."

              On the other hand, he goes on to discuss the frequent use of a Gothic
              present for a Greek perfect, where the reference is to a continuing
              state of affairs that began in the past.

              LN
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