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Re: James 3:6

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  • ualarauans
    Hails, Lama! Thank you very much for your correction. I ve got some further doubts concerning this fragment and I d appreciate to know what the list-mates
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 15, 2007
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      Hails, Lama!

      Thank you very much for your correction. I've got some further
      doubts concerning this fragment and I'd appreciate to know what the
      list-mates think.

      KOSMOS = fairhvus "world", but isn't "ornament", "attire" another
      meaning of the Greek word? In this context, couldn't the tongue be
      called a "decoration of iniquity", i.e. a means to disguise it
      (with lies)? We've got Go. fetjan KOSMEIN "to adorn", "to decorate";
      hrains, gafaurs KOSMIOS "decent" attested. hO KOSMOS THS ADIKIAS =
      feteins inwindiþos?

      KAQISTATAI = gasatida ist. Or, maybe, gasatjada?

      hH SPILOUSA = anawammjandei. Doesn't it need the article here:
      so anawammjandei? And what about no article before the first
      appearance of tuggo in the sentence and putting it before the second
      one – is it correct here?

      FLOGIZEIN = intandjan (attested for KATAKAIEIN). Another variant
      was, of course, inbrannjan (KAIEIN). We've got lauhmuni for FLOX
      (gen. FLOGOS). How about *lauhmunjan for FLOGIZEIN (formally like
      glitmunjan)? And, FLOGIZOMENH hUPO THS GEENNHS – couldn't it be also
      intandjada fram gaiainnin? BTW, am I right putting dat. sg.
      of gaiainna* after weak masculina (gaiainnin*)? Maybe, the only
      attested acc. sg. gaiainnan is but a copy of Greek acc. sg. fem.
      1st decl. GEENNAN?

      Finally, TROCOS = runs (attested for DROMOS). And we know rinnan for
      TRECEIN. Here there's a problem. In my grandparents' library I
      recently found an old book titled "Grammatik des neutestamentlichen
      Sprachidioms", bearb. von Dr. G. B. Winer, Leipzig, 1867, where on
      p. 53 I read: "Begründet ... ist der Unterschied zwischen TROCOS
      (oxytonon) "Rad", wie Jac. 3, 6. der Text und die accentuirten Codd.
      haben, und TROCOS (paroxytonon) "Lauf", wie nach ... u. A. gelesen
      werden soll... Das Bild TROCOS (oxytonon) GENESEWS ist
      (mit FLOGIZOUSA verbunden) weder incorrect noch bei Jacobus
      besonders auffällig, eine Aenderung der Schreibart mithin unnötig".
      I have no idea in how much outdated this is now, but if it was
      really "a wheel of birth", what could Gothic "wheel" be like?

      Ualarauans

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:

      > Hails, Walhahrabn!
      >
      > Looks convincing. Just one thing comes to mind: I would suggest
      > 'fram' rather than 'af' to translate hUPO here. This seems to be
      the
      > normal preposition used where Gothic needs to express the agent in
      a
      > passive construction (unlike Old Norse, where it would be 'af'). I
      > can't think of any examples where 'af' is used in this way in the
      > Gothic corpus.
      >
      > http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B037.html
      > http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B001.html
      >
      > LN
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...>
      wrote:
      > >
      > > Hails!
      > >
      > > (James 3:6):
      > >
      > > "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue
      > > among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth
      on
      > > fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell".
      > >
      > > KAI hH GLWSSA PUR hO KOSMOS THS ADIKIAS hH GLWSSA KAQISTATAI EN
      TOIS
      > > MELESIN hHMWN hH SPILOUSA hOLON TO SWMA KAI FLOGIZOUSA TON TROCON
      > > THS GENESEWS KAI FLOGIZOMENH hUPO THS GEENNHS
      > >
      > > [*] jah tuggo <ist> fon fairhvus inwindiþos so tuggo gasatida
      ist in
      > > liþum unsaraim anawammjandei allata leik jah intandjandei run
      > > gabaurþais jah intandida af gaiainnin
      > >
      > > Please criticize the Gothic version. All comments are welcome.
      > >
      > > Thanx
      > >
      > > Ualarauans
    • thiudans
      Can we add this to the slowly growing GBRP (gothic bible reconstruction project?). So far, following the textus receptus has got us fairly stylistically
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 16, 2007
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        Can we add this to the slowly growing GBRP (gothic bible
        reconstruction project?). So far, following the textus receptus has
        got us fairly stylistically continuous to the extant wulfilian
        translation/gloss.

        I'm putting a version of Naihaimias in its present state into the
        gothic-l files folder, for criticism should anyone be so inclined.
        That follows the Sept. mostly, with notes where deemed appropriate.

        Cheers,
        Th.



        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hails, Lama!
        >
        > Thank you very much for your correction. I've got some further
        > doubts concerning this fragment and I'd appreciate to know what the
        > list-mates think.
        >
        > KOSMOS = fairhvus "world", but isn't "ornament", "attire" another
        > meaning of the Greek word? In this context, couldn't the tongue be
        > called a "decoration of iniquity", i.e. a means to disguise it
        > (with lies)? We've got Go. fetjan KOSMEIN "to adorn", "to decorate";
        > hrains, gafaurs KOSMIOS "decent" attested. hO KOSMOS THS ADIKIAS =
        > feteins inwindiþos?
        >
        > KAQISTATAI = gasatida ist. Or, maybe, gasatjada?
        >
        > hH SPILOUSA = anawammjandei. Doesn't it need the article here:
        > so anawammjandei? And what about no article before the first
        > appearance of tuggo in the sentence and putting it before the second
        > one – is it correct here?
        >
        > FLOGIZEIN = intandjan (attested for KATAKAIEIN). Another variant
        > was, of course, inbrannjan (KAIEIN). We've got lauhmuni for FLOX
        > (gen. FLOGOS). How about *lauhmunjan for FLOGIZEIN (formally like
        > glitmunjan)? And, FLOGIZOMENH hUPO THS GEENNHS – couldn't it be also
        > intandjada fram gaiainnin? BTW, am I right putting dat. sg.
        > of gaiainna* after weak masculina (gaiainnin*)? Maybe, the only
        > attested acc. sg. gaiainnan is but a copy of Greek acc. sg. fem.
        > 1st decl. GEENNAN?
        >
        > Finally, TROCOS = runs (attested for DROMOS). And we know rinnan for
        > TRECEIN. Here there's a problem. In my grandparents' library I
        > recently found an old book titled "Grammatik des neutestamentlichen
        > Sprachidioms", bearb. von Dr. G. B. Winer, Leipzig, 1867, where on
        > p. 53 I read: "Begründet ... ist der Unterschied zwischen TROCOS
        > (oxytonon) "Rad", wie Jac. 3, 6. der Text und die accentuirten Codd.
        > haben, und TROCOS (paroxytonon) "Lauf", wie nach ... u. A. gelesen
        > werden soll... Das Bild TROCOS (oxytonon) GENESEWS ist
        > (mit FLOGIZOUSA verbunden) weder incorrect noch bei Jacobus
        > besonders auffällig, eine Aenderung der Schreibart mithin unnötig".
        > I have no idea in how much outdated this is now, but if it was
        > really "a wheel of birth", what could Gothic "wheel" be like?
        >
        > Ualarauans
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
        >
        > > Hails, Walhahrabn!
        > >
        > > Looks convincing. Just one thing comes to mind: I would suggest
        > > 'fram' rather than 'af' to translate hUPO here. This seems to be
        > the
        > > normal preposition used where Gothic needs to express the agent in
        > a
        > > passive construction (unlike Old Norse, where it would be 'af'). I
        > > can't think of any examples where 'af' is used in this way in the
        > > Gothic corpus.
        > >
        > > http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B037.html
        > > http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B001.html
        > >
        > > LN
        > >
        > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@>
        > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hails!
        > > >
        > > > (James 3:6):
        > > >
        > > > "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue
        > > > among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth
        > on
        > > > fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell".
        > > >
        > > > KAI hH GLWSSA PUR hO KOSMOS THS ADIKIAS hH GLWSSA KAQISTATAI EN
        > TOIS
        > > > MELESIN hHMWN hH SPILOUSA hOLON TO SWMA KAI FLOGIZOUSA TON TROCON
        > > > THS GENESEWS KAI FLOGIZOMENH hUPO THS GEENNHS
        > > >
        > > > [*] jah tuggo <ist> fon fairhvus inwindiþos so tuggo gasatida
        > ist in
        > > > liþum unsaraim anawammjandei allata leik jah intandjandei run
        > > > gabaurþais jah intandida af gaiainnin
        > > >
        > > > Please criticize the Gothic version. All comments are welcome.
        > > >
        > > > Thanx
        > > >
        > > > Ualarauans
        >
      • ualarauans
        Hails! Are there any good reasons to believe that a Gothic version of the Revelation once existed? Ualarauans
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 18, 2007
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          Hails!

          Are there any good reasons to believe that a Gothic version of the
          Revelation once existed?

          Ualarauans

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans@...> wrote:
          >
          > Can we add this to the slowly growing GBRP (gothic bible
          > reconstruction project?). So far, following the textus receptus has
          > got us fairly stylistically continuous to the extant wulfilian
          > translation/gloss.
          >
          > I'm putting a version of Naihaimias in its present state into the
          > gothic-l files folder, for criticism should anyone be so inclined.
          > That follows the Sept. mostly, with notes where deemed appropriate.
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Th.
        • llama_nom
          Hails, Walhahrafn! We live and learn! I just came across this verse in which af translates hUPO, just as you did: ni gajiukaizau af unþiuþa, ak gajiukais
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 10, 2007
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            Hails, Walhahrafn!

            We live and learn! I just came across this verse in which 'af'
            translates hUPO, just as you did:

            ni gajiukaizau af unþiuþa, ak gajiukais [af] þiuþa unþiuþ.
            Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
            MH NIKW hUPO TOU KAKOU, ALLA NIKA EN TWi AGAQWi TO KAKON
            R 12:21

            (The 2nd 'af' presumably an accidental addition.)

            LN


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hails, Walhahrabn!
            >
            > Looks convincing. Just one thing comes to mind: I would suggest
            > 'fram' rather than 'af' to translate hUPO here. This seems to be the
            > normal preposition used where Gothic needs to express the agent in a
            > passive construction (unlike Old Norse, where it would be 'af'). I
            > can't think of any examples where 'af' is used in this way in the
            > Gothic corpus.
            >
            > http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B037.html
            > http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B001.html
            >
            > LN
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hails!
            > >
            > > (James 3:6):
            > >
            > > "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue
            > > among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on
            > > fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell".
            > >
            > > KAI hH GLWSSA PUR hO KOSMOS THS ADIKIAS hH GLWSSA KAQISTATAI EN TOIS
            > > MELESIN hHMWN hH SPILOUSA hOLON TO SWMA KAI FLOGIZOUSA TON TROCON
            > > THS GENESEWS KAI FLOGIZOMENH hUPO THS GEENNHS
            > >
            > > [*] jah tuggo <ist> fon fairhvus inwindiþos so tuggo gasatida ist in
            > > liþum unsaraim anawammjandei allata leik jah intandjandei run
            > > gabaurþais jah intandida af gaiainnin
            > >
            > > Please criticize the Gothic version. All comments are welcome.
            > >
            > > Thanx
            > >
            > > Ualarauans
            > >
            >
          • ualarauans
            Lamin awiliuþ! ... be the ... in a ... be af ). I ... tongue ... setteth on ... EN TOIS ... TROCON ... ist in
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 10, 2007
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              Lamin awiliuþ!

              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hails, Walhahrafn!
              >
              > We live and learn! I just came across this verse in which 'af'
              > translates hUPO, just as you did:
              >
              > ni gajiukaizau af unþiuþa, ak gajiukais [af] þiuþa unþiuþ.
              > Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
              > MH NIKW hUPO TOU KAKOU, ALLA NIKA EN TWi AGAQWi TO KAKON
              > R 12:21
              >
              > (The 2nd 'af' presumably an accidental addition.)
              >
              > LN
              >
              >
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Hails, Walhahrabn!
              > >
              > > Looks convincing. Just one thing comes to mind: I would suggest
              > > 'fram' rather than 'af' to translate hUPO here. This seems to
              be the
              > > normal preposition used where Gothic needs to express the agent
              in a
              > > passive construction (unlike Old Norse, where it would
              be 'af'). I
              > > can't think of any examples where 'af' is used in this way in the
              > > Gothic corpus.
              > >
              > > http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B037.html
              > > http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B001.html
              > >
              > > LN
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@>
              wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hails!
              > > >
              > > > (James 3:6):
              > > >
              > > > "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the
              tongue
              > > > among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and
              setteth on
              > > > fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell".
              > > >
              > > > KAI hH GLWSSA PUR hO KOSMOS THS ADIKIAS hH GLWSSA KAQISTATAI
              EN TOIS
              > > > MELESIN hHMWN hH SPILOUSA hOLON TO SWMA KAI FLOGIZOUSA TON
              TROCON
              > > > THS GENESEWS KAI FLOGIZOMENH hUPO THS GEENNHS
              > > >
              > > > [*] jah tuggo <ist> fon fairhvus inwindiþos so tuggo gasatida
              ist in
              > > > liþum unsaraim anawammjandei allata leik jah intandjandei run
              > > > gabaurþais jah intandida af gaiainnin
              > > >
              > > > Please criticize the Gothic version. All comments are welcome.
              > > >
              > > > Thanx
              > > >
              > > > Ualarauans
              > > >
              > >
              >
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