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Re: Fwd: Eine Kleine Gotenmusik

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  • Ingemar Nordgren
    Dear Arthur! As allways your poetry and sense of historical accuracy go hand in hand. I am impressed! Mozart könnte es nicht besser gemacht. Er konnte Musik
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 15, 2007
      Dear Arthur!

      As allways your poetry and sense of historical accuracy go hand in
      hand. I am impressed! Mozart könnte es nicht besser gemacht. Er konnte
      Musik komponieren aber von Poesie und Geschichte hat er nichts gewusst.

      Best
      Ingemar
    • ualarauans
      Hailai, Garazdans! Am I the only one who gets ERROR 404 when trying to follow that link? Wai mis armamma!! I was so much looking forward to hear some more of
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 15, 2007
        Hailai, Garazdans!

        Am I the only one who gets ERROR 404 when trying to follow that
        link? Wai mis armamma!! I was so much looking forward to hear some
        more of Arthur's excellent Gothic verses...

        schwer betrübt,
        Ualarauans

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Jah aftra hails.
        >
        > I missent the url. It should, I think, be
        >
        > http://www.lowlands-l.net/gallery/jones
        >
        > I hope that gets you there. If not, somebody please tell me how
        to send > this
        > link correctly.
        > Arthur
        >
        > Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@...> wrote:
        > Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:14:22 -0800 (PST)
        > From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@...>
        > Subject: Eine Kleine Gotenmusik
        > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Hails alla,
        >
        > In a moment of treacly ineptitude, I wrote a poem about the
        Marcomannic > War,
        > more specifically about a Gothic (Wielbark) mother's grief at the
        loss of her
        > three sons. You can find it, inter alia, at the following:
        >
        >
        > http://www.lowlands-l.net/gallery/jones
        >
        >
        > click under the photo on "Mother Inguna's Anguish".
        >
        > Criticisms appreciated.
        >
        > Arthur
        >
        > Arthur.jones@...
      • Arthur Jones
        Hailags gibandans, im ik frijands af Garazdans , jah Yes, I also get ERROR 404, but that is the fault of the webmaster. Clearly a Langobard. However, what I
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 15, 2007
          Hailags gibandans, im ik
          frijands af "Garazdans", jah

          Yes, I also get ERROR 404, but that is the fault of the webmaster. Clearly a Langobard.
          However, what I get when I go there is also a left-hand column that, at the very bottom, features the word

          "GALLERY."

          If you click thereupon, you should get a great, dismal and melancholic page in which my name, Arthur Jones, is listed. Click it.

          That should place you in confrontation with an ugly face (mine), and under it, two listings:
          1. Ingunans Aitheins Aglo; and
          2. Unfinished trilogy: about 2/3 full, just as my average sanity.

          The Gothic poem is actually a song: It vibrates to bodhran 6/8 rhythm, A minor.

          ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote:
          Hailai, Garazdans!

          Am I the only one who gets ERROR 404 when trying to follow that
          link? Wai mis armamma!! I was so much looking forward to hear some
          more of Arthur's excellent Gothic verses...

          schwer betrübt,
          Ualarauans

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Jah aftra hails.
          >
          > I missent the url. It should, I think, be
          >
          > http://www.lowlands-l.net/gallery/jones
          >
          > I hope that gets you there. If not, somebody please tell me how
          to send > this
          > link correctly.
          > Arthur
          >
          > Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@...> wrote:
          > Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:14:22 -0800 (PST)
          > From: Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@...>
          > Subject: Eine Kleine Gotenmusik
          > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Hails alla,
          >
          > In a moment of treacly ineptitude, I wrote a poem about the
          Marcomannic > War,
          > more specifically about a Gothic (Wielbark) mother's grief at the
          loss of her
          > three sons. You can find it, inter alia, at the following:
          >
          >
          > http://www.lowlands-l.net/gallery/jones
          >
          >
          > click under the photo on "Mother Inguna's Anguish".
          >
          > Criticisms appreciated.
          >
          > Arthur
          >
          > Arthur.jones@...






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael Erwin
          I suppose the Gothic thread-name would be Ains leitils *Gutsaggws or Ains smals Gutisks saggws or a combination thereof? (found the lyrics.)
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 16, 2007
            I suppose the Gothic thread-name would be "Ains leitils *Gutsaggws"

            or "Ains smals Gutisks saggws"

            or a combination thereof?

            (found the lyrics.)
          • llama_nom
            First, congratulations Arthur on your latest compositions! Waila waurhteis! Some powerful and poignant poetry there. ... Or maybe leitil Gutane saggwis
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 19, 2007
              First, congratulations Arthur on your latest compositions! Waila
              waurhteis! Some powerful and poignant poetry there.


              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:
              >
              > I suppose the Gothic thread-name would be "Ains leitils *Gutsaggws"
              >
              > or "Ains smals Gutisks saggws"
              >
              > or a combination thereof?


              Or maybe 'leitil Gutane saggwis' (compare I Cor 5:6, I Tim 5:23), with
              a partitive genitive. Like the other early Germanic languages, Gothic
              mostly does without an indefinite article in the singular...

              leitil beistis
              "a little yeast"

              weinis leitil brukjais
              "use a little wine"

              jah was jainar manna gaþaursana habands handu.
              "and there was yonder a man having a withered hand"

              unte manna hardus is
              "for thou art a hard man"


              > GBRP / Naihaimias & James 3:6 [was just] Re: James 3:6
              >
              > Hails!
              >
              > Are there any good reasons to believe that a Gothic version of the
              Revelation once existed?
              >
              > Ualarauans


              I'm not aware of any specific evidence one way or the other about
              Revelation. There are hints in the Vienna-Salzburg Codex that a
              translation of Genesis existed, and there are a couple of clues to
              suggest that there was a Gothic psalter. John Chrysostomus mentions
              in a homily that psalms were sung in Constantinople in Greek, Syrian,
              Latin and Barbarian language; according to Elfriede Stutz, "es ist
              kaum zu bezweifeln, dass mit THi BARBARWN FWNHi die got. Sprache
              gemeint ist" (Gotische Literaturdenkmäler 1966, p. 30). Then there is
              the case of the two Goths who wrote to Jerome for his advice regarding
              translating the psalms, although Stutz comments that it isn't clear
              whether they had in mind translation into Gothic specifically.

              LN
            • thiudans
              Little song I think should not use a partitive genitive. Little music might, because it suggests a part of a larger collective whole, like little yeast etc.,
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 19, 2007
                Little song I think should not use a partitive genitive. "Little
                music" might, because it suggests a part of a larger collective whole,
                like little yeast etc., in the same way we say in English "a little
                (bit of)..." One little song, emphasizing the number via 'ain-' might
                act as a deprecative.

                -Th.

                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > First, congratulations Arthur on your latest compositions! Waila
                > waurhteis! Some powerful and poignant poetry there.
                >
                >
                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I suppose the Gothic thread-name would be "Ains leitils *Gutsaggws"
                > >
                > > or "Ains smals Gutisks saggws"
                > >
                > > or a combination thereof?
                >
                >
                > Or maybe 'leitil Gutane saggwis' (compare I Cor 5:6, I Tim 5:23), with
                > a partitive genitive. Like the other early Germanic languages, Gothic
                > mostly does without an indefinite article in the singular...
                >
                > leitil beistis
                > "a little yeast"
                >
                > weinis leitil brukjais
                > "use a little wine"
                >
                > jah was jainar manna gaþaursana habands handu.
                > "and there was yonder a man having a withered hand"
                >
                > unte manna hardus is
                > "for thou art a hard man"
                >
                >
                > > GBRP / Naihaimias & James 3:6 [was just] Re: James 3:6
                > >
                > > Hails!
                > >
                > > Are there any good reasons to believe that a Gothic version of the
                > Revelation once existed?
                > >
                > > Ualarauans
                >
                >
                > I'm not aware of any specific evidence one way or the other about
                > Revelation. There are hints in the Vienna-Salzburg Codex that a
                > translation of Genesis existed, and there are a couple of clues to
                > suggest that there was a Gothic psalter. John Chrysostomus mentions
                > in a homily that psalms were sung in Constantinople in Greek, Syrian,
                > Latin and Barbarian language; according to Elfriede Stutz, "es ist
                > kaum zu bezweifeln, dass mit THi BARBARWN FWNHi die got. Sprache
                > gemeint ist" (Gotische Literaturdenkmäler 1966, p. 30). Then there is
                > the case of the two Goths who wrote to Jerome for his advice regarding
                > translating the psalms, although Stutz comments that it isn't clear
                > whether they had in mind translation into Gothic specifically.
                >
                > LN
                >
              • llama_nom
                Good points, Thiudans. Thinks: One small Gothic song for a man, one giant Gothic leap for mankind. Regarding the word order, there would probably be some
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 19, 2007
                  Good points, Thiudans. Thinks: "One small Gothic song for a man, one
                  giant Gothic leap for mankind." Regarding the word order, there would
                  probably be some freedom. There are a few instances of numbers placed
                  before the noun they modify in the Bible, where the two words
                  correspond to a single word of Greek. But then there is the rule that
                  numerals 4-19 are declined for dative and genitive only when they
                  occur after the noun, which suggests the both orders were possible in
                  theory in native Gothic. Perhaps, on that basis, we can guess that
                  the order numeral first was least emphatic. Other strong adjective
                  and genitive modifiers tend to follow the noun they modify in those
                  very few instances in the Bible where Greek influence on word order
                  can be discounted (but weak adjectives tend to come first). The
                  Skeireins shows more freedom in this respect, but with a tendency to
                  place partitive genitives after. In the Bible, in those (independent)
                  instances where the genitive is placed before the noun or adjective it
                  modifies, the two words can be seen as being in a closer relationship
                  that otherwise, i.e. having the nature of a compound, compare: witodis
                  laus : witoda-laus (I Cor 9:21), both = ANOMOS "without law."
                  According to Zoega's Old Icelandic Dictionary, "if put after the noun,
                  [Old Icelandic] 'einn' generally denotes 'only', 'but'". I don't know
                  if there's any evidence one way or the other as to whether Gothic had
                  such a tendency too. So, apologies to Michael for my misguided
                  criticism! That leaves us with possibilities such as:

                  (ains)
                  ........gutane (cf. Pietroassa inscription)
                  ........gut- (cf. Calendar)
                  .................saggws
                  ...........................smals
                  ...........................leitils

                  LN


                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Little song I think should not use a partitive genitive. "Little
                  > music" might, because it suggests a part of a larger collective whole,
                  > like little yeast etc., in the same way we say in English "a little
                  > (bit of)..." One little song, emphasizing the number via 'ain-' might
                  > act as a deprecative.
                  >
                  > -Th.
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > First, congratulations Arthur on your latest compositions! Waila
                  > > waurhteis! Some powerful and poignant poetry there.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I suppose the Gothic thread-name would be "Ains leitils *Gutsaggws"
                  > > >
                  > > > or "Ains smals Gutisks saggws"
                  > > >
                  > > > or a combination thereof?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Or maybe 'leitil Gutane saggwis' (compare I Cor 5:6, I Tim 5:23), with
                  > > a partitive genitive. Like the other early Germanic languages, Gothic
                  > > mostly does without an indefinite article in the singular...
                  > >
                  > > leitil beistis
                  > > "a little yeast"
                  > >
                  > > weinis leitil brukjais
                  > > "use a little wine"
                  > >
                  > > jah was jainar manna gaþaursana habands handu.
                  > > "and there was yonder a man having a withered hand"
                  > >
                  > > unte manna hardus is
                  > > "for thou art a hard man"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > GBRP / Naihaimias & James 3:6 [was just] Re: James 3:6
                  > > >
                  > > > Hails!
                  > > >
                  > > > Are there any good reasons to believe that a Gothic version of the
                  > > Revelation once existed?
                  > > >
                  > > > Ualarauans
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I'm not aware of any specific evidence one way or the other about
                  > > Revelation. There are hints in the Vienna-Salzburg Codex that a
                  > > translation of Genesis existed, and there are a couple of clues to
                  > > suggest that there was a Gothic psalter. John Chrysostomus mentions
                  > > in a homily that psalms were sung in Constantinople in Greek, Syrian,
                  > > Latin and Barbarian language; according to Elfriede Stutz, "es ist
                  > > kaum zu bezweifeln, dass mit THi BARBARWN FWNHi die got. Sprache
                  > > gemeint ist" (Gotische Literaturdenkmäler 1966, p. 30). Then there is
                  > > the case of the two Goths who wrote to Jerome for his advice regarding
                  > > translating the psalms, although Stutz comments that it isn't clear
                  > > whether they had in mind translation into Gothic specifically.
                  > >
                  > > LN
                  > >
                  >
                • llama_nom
                  Still no solid answer to your original question, I m afraid, but regarding the psalms, there is also a marginal note to Eph 4:8 in Codex Amrosianus A:
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 21, 2007
                    Still no solid answer to your original question, I'm afraid, but
                    regarding the psalms, there is also a marginal note to Eph 4:8 in
                    Codex Amrosianus A: 'psalmo'. And to I Cor 14:21, there is a marginal
                    note 'Esaias'. According to Friedrichsen, these refer to Psalm 67:18
                    and Isiah 28:11 respectively (Friedrichsen: The Gothic Version of the
                    Epistles 1939, p. 67). Of course, these don't necessarily imply a
                    Gothic translation, but show at the very least an interest in, and
                    awareness of, these books among the Goths. In support of his argument
                    that the whole Bible was translated, he suggests that Nehemiah, being
                    a relatively unimportant book of the Old Testament, is unlikely to
                    have been of high priority for translators; probably more urgent
                    sections had already been completed, such as Acts, Psalms, etc.
                    (Friedrichsen 1939, p. 158). He points to echoes of Hebrews,
                    Leviticus or Numbers, and to the Acts of the Apostles in the
                    Skeireins. He mentions the evidence for Book 5 of Genesis in the
                    Vienna-Salzburg Codex, adding that "both the Laws and the Gospels are
                    referred to in the Brixian Preface," and (more tenuously), he mentions
                    Procopius's report that the Vandal King Gelimer repeated "Vanity of
                    vanities, all is vanity," when brought as a captive to Constantinople
                    (AD 534), "but whether the wretched king murmured these words in
                    Vandalic or Latin, we are not told" (Friedrichsen 1939, p. 258).


                    > > Hails!
                    > >
                    > > Are there any good reasons to believe that a Gothic version of the
                    > Revelation once existed?
                    > >
                    > > Ualarauans
                    >
                    >
                    > I'm not aware of any specific evidence one way or the other about
                    > Revelation. There are hints in the Vienna-Salzburg Codex that a
                    > translation of Genesis existed, and there are a couple of clues to
                    > suggest that there was a Gothic psalter. John Chrysostomus mentions
                    > in a homily that psalms were sung in Constantinople in Greek, Syrian,
                    > Latin and Barbarian language; according to Elfriede Stutz, "es ist
                    > kaum zu bezweifeln, dass mit THi BARBARWN FWNHi die got. Sprache
                    > gemeint ist" (Gotische Literaturdenkmäler 1966, p. 30). Then there is
                    > the case of the two Goths who wrote to Jerome for his advice regarding
                    > translating the psalms, although Stutz comments that it isn't clear
                    > whether they had in mind translation into Gothic specifically.
                    >
                    > LN
                    >
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