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RE: [gothic-l] Grammar

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  • Paperno D.
    Try this: http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1920/ You can download there the text of Streitberg s grammar, except for the chapters on syntax. Best, Denis
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 1, 2007
      Try this:



      http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1920/



      You can download there the text of Streitberg's grammar, except for the
      chapters on syntax.



      Best,



      Denis

      _____

      From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Le Bateman
      Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:25 PM
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [gothic-l] Grammar



      Can someone point me to a website or downloadable link to a Gothic Grammar
      book?
      Le



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    • Carl Edlund Anderson
      Also, there are scanned images of Wright s here: And David Salo s intro to Gothic here:
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 1, 2007
        Also, there are scanned images of Wright's here:
        <http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_about.html>

        And David Salo's intro to Gothic here:
        <http://yarinareth.net/David/gothic/>

        Cheers,
        Carl

        --
        Carl Edlund Anderson
        mailto:cea@...
        http://www.carlaz.com/
      • thiudans
        Hails! Has anyone seen this book and can anyone comment on it?
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 6, 2007
          Hails!

          Has anyone seen this book and can anyone comment on it?

          http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1597523941/ref=ord_cart_shr/104-4806149-6031927?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

          Introduction to the Gothic Language
          (Ancient Language Resources)
          by Thomas O. Lambdin.

          Published Jan. 2006 by Wipf & Stock.
        • llama_nom
          ... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1597523941/ref=ord_cart_shr/104-4806149-6031927?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance ... Hails, Þiudan!
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 6, 2007
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hails!
            >
            > Has anyone seen this book and can anyone comment on it?
            >
            >
            http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1597523941/ref=ord_cart_shr/104-4806149-6031927?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance
            >
            > Introduction to the Gothic Language
            > (Ancient Language Resources)
            > by Thomas O. Lambdin.
            >
            > Published Jan. 2006 by Wipf & Stock.
            >


            Hails, Þiudan!

            I haven't seen this one, I'm afraid, but I can comment on the following:

            Word Order and Phrase Structure in Gothic
            by G Ferraresi
            ISBN: 90-429-1694-X

            Published May 2006 by Peeters Publishers
            http://www.peeters-leuven.be/boekoverz.asp?nr=8008

            It's adapted from the author's doctoral thesis. Although the author
            makes some interesting observations, the book as a whole is flawed by
            quite a few typos and misunderstandings. E.g. the IMP-3sg verbal
            ending -adau is twice (108, 120) misidentified as MEDIOPASS-OPT-3sg
            (which would be -aidau). du "to" is mistakenly claimed to assign "all
            cases but NOM" (73). The Old Icelandic cited on p. 139, aþr alþinge
            er úte sumar, should read áþr alþinge er úte í sumar. It doesn't mean
            "before everything is out in summer", but "before the { Althingi,
            National Assembly } is over this summer." Mention is made of "the
            reflexive possessive pronoun sein-, which shows a full paradigm of
            cases, genders and numbers" (83), whereas in fact sein- is lacking in
            the nominative.

            More seriously, there is a failure to recognise the extent of Greek
            influence on word order in the Gothic Bible. For large parts of the
            book, Greek and Gothic verses with identical word order are cited
            uncritically as evidence for Gothic. Some claims are supported
            exclusively with such examples, e.g. 29 Gothic examples are cited in §
            2.8, Double Object Constructions (63-75), in every one of which the
            order of arguments in the Gothic translation matches that of the Greek
            text cited exactly. Streitberg's reconstruction of the Greek source
            text is cited, and endorsed with no reference to the criticisms of
            Marchand and Stutz [ http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/ ].
            Alternative readings from Nestlé-Aland are given, but the complexities
            of the history behind the Gothic text are not adequately dealt with,
            nor its mutual interaction with the Vetus Latina. These are tricky
            matters, and it may not be possible to get to the bottom of all such
            textual problems, but the introduction seem to me rather dismissive of
            the difficulties, even speaking of the "autonomy of the Gothic from
            the Greek model," as if this was an either / or question.

            Conversely, where differences between Greek and Gothic do occur, their
            significance is sometimes ignored. On p. 150, the particle iþ is
            designated a P2 (second position) particle on the basis on just three
            examples, all of which match Greek usage, in spite of 623 examples
            where Gothic deviates from Greek by placing iþ first!

            On occasion, the writing is rendered hard to follow or misleading by
            its own word order and phrase structure: "This [the independence of
            Gothic] is shown first by the fact that in some cases there is no
            reflexive in Greek, or the personal pronoun is used, whereas Gothic
            has a reflexive pronoun, and to a much greater extent by the fact that
            in Greek there is the reflexive pronoun hEAUTON in the accusative and
            hEAUTOU (which can also appear abbreviated as hAUTOU, hAUTON in the
            genitive case), which is used not only for the 3rd person but also as
            a reflexive pronoun for the 1st and 2nd persons" (84). The last part
            of this is presumably intended to say something like: "...the
            reflexive pronoun—accusative hEAUTON, genitive hEAUTOU -- which can
            also appear abbreviated as hAUTON and hAUTOU respectively."

            Ch. 2 "Pronouns and Double Object Constructions" is deeply flawed by
            indiscriminate use of matching examples, and to some extent by
            oversights and counting mistakes. The author makes an interesting
            observation that there is always a change of subject when Gothic
            nominative personal pronouns are expressed in an embedded clause while
            "the Greek" doesn't express the pronoun (49), although it's unclear
            from the way the data is presented, and the lack of references to
            verse numbers, whether a complete survey of the corpus has been made.
            Some of the statistics given seem too low to me, e.g.

            "In all 17 entries in the whole Bible, the pronoun ita never appears
            in initial position, but always follows the verb in main clauses"
            (60). This same value is also given in Table 58 on p. 53. But I
            count at least 21 examples of this word form [
            http://www.wulfila.be/Corpus/Search.html ], [
            http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm ]. I'm not sure if there are
            any examples in the glosses.

            Ch. 3 "Reflexive Pronouns" is right to distinguish between inherent
            and argumental reflexive pronouns. The observation (attributed to
            Harbert), that a high proportion of the examples of LDR-avoidance with
            present participles is to be found in the Skeireins, may be
            significant (95-96).

            Ch. 4 "Topicalization and Discourse Particles" provides a potentially
            useful summary of the use of each particle discussed, but with certain
            misunderstandings and unfounded conclusions (e.g. the idea that -u
            adds "an element of emotion" such as surprise or disappointment).
            Some of the comments on word order are flawed by the use of examples
            where Gothic and Greek word order match, and I would question whether
            auk ever really means "also" (71, 170). Of the three supporting
            examples on p. 171, F herself has only translated one as "also". But
            here, I Cor 1:16, the idea "also" is already expressed by jaþ- (jah),
            translating Gk. KAI.

            There are many aspects of Gothic word order that the book doesn't
            address (some covered in earlier works such as those of Streitberg and
            Gabelentz / Loebe), and much of the structure it does describe is NT
            Greek rather than Gothic.

            LN
          • llama_nom
            Okay, this isn t a new book, but I m in a critical mood now... Language and History in the Early Germanic World. By D.H. GREEN. Cambridge University Press,
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 6, 2007
              Okay, this isn't a new book, but I'm in a critical mood now...

              Language and History in the Early Germanic World. By D.H. GREEN.
              Cambridge University Press, 1998. Pp. xv + 444 pp.

              "The position of OE is remarkable, since it is the only Germanic
              language to regularly apply three of the technical runic terms (stæf
              `letter', writan `write', rædan `read') to Christian writing in the
              Latin alphabet. [...] At the opposite extreme to OE stands Gothic,
              where none of the terms was used by Wulfila with regard to his Gothic
              Christian script" (358).

              But no Gothic text survives in which any author even mentions the
              Gothic script! Besides which, what terms may have existed in Gothic
              for runic reading and writing, if any, and whether they differed from
              the terms used for reading and writing in the New Testament, is also
              completely unknown. *

              "the Gothic word blotan has been safely Christianised by a change of
              construction: it no longer governs the dative (`to sacrifice to a
              god'), but the accusative (`to worship God') [...]. Wulfila therefore
              retained no trace of worship by means of sacrifice and has extracted
              the word from its pagan origins" (22). Yet the cognate ON blóta,
              which retained its non-Christian connotations, shows exactly the same
              grammar as the Gothic verb, accusative for the god, dative for the
              means of worship, such as sacrificed animals.

              Green proposes that the use of different words for `holy' in the
              Christian sense in OE and Gothic was a deliberate choice: "Wulfila may
              therefore have shunned *hailagaz because of its combination of the
              physical and the metaphysical. He may also have taken offence at a
              particular type of secular function performed by *hailagaz (concerning
              assistance in battle, victory)" (360-361).

              But what was there to take offense at when Christian scripture
              ascribed the same function to its god: `thanks be to God who has given
              us victory' (1Cor 15:57), whose attributes were likened to weapons
              (Eph 6:17), service of and faith in whom was described in terms of
              armed combat (2Cor 10:4, 1Thess 5:8), under whom was set a heavenly
              host (L 2:13), and whose favour was called the prize of victory, Go.
              sigislaun (1Cor 9:24, Php 3:14).

              Similarly Green states that "what Wulfila objected to was not the
              secular use of *drauhtins as such (frauja also had a secular
              function), but rather its military function and the suggestion, if he
              had used it, that Christ could be regarded as a military leader"
              (361-362).

              Yet independently--it would seem--of a Greek model, the Gothic Bible
              uses frauja in exactly this sense of a military leader: drauhtinonds
              frauja = STRATEUOMENOS `serves as a soldier' (2Tim 2:4), and in a
              positive sense, extolling the virtues of discipline.

              In each of these instances, another possibility is that the choice of
              terms in the various Germanic languages may have been quite arbitrary
              and that the pagan or secular connotations of the word not
              chosen--where such connotations existed--arose after the fact; not
              every aspect of language use is deliberate. A third possibility is
              that the word not chosen was obsolete in the particular variety of
              Gothic or OE, even if it did exist in other dialects, in specialised
              uses, or in compounds and derivatives. Or it could be that, in each
              case, the word not chosen was current in the language, but rejected
              for reasons other than those proposed by Green, or those suggested
              here, reasons which may or may not be recoverable to us, and not
              necessarily the same reasons for each word.

              Lama Nom

              * Go. stafs occurs twice translating Gk. STOICEION `element', which
              also has the meaning `letter of the alphabet'. No cognate of OE
              writan occurs in Gothic, except for the derivative writs `stroke of
              the pen'. Prefixed verbs derived from *redan occur, though nowhere
              attested with the meaning `read'. Instead Gothic has boka `letter',
              meljan `write', anakunnan, (us)siggwan `read'.
            • Carl Edlund Anderson
              ... I think Green s book covers a lot of interesting things, but I m not always convinced he s on very sure ground when he moves away from what seems to be his
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 7, 2007
                On 06/02/2007 22:04, llama_nom wrote:
                > Okay, this isn't a new book, but I'm in a critical mood now...
                > Language and History in the Early Germanic World. By D.H. GREEN.
                > Cambridge University Press, 1998. Pp. xv + 444 pp.

                I think Green's book covers a lot of interesting things, but I'm not
                always convinced he's on very sure ground when he moves away from what
                seems to be his area of comfort in West Germanic ....

                In fact, back at the time the book came out, I presented a paper that
                tried to look at day-names in the context of early borrowings from the
                Roman world into North Germanic that was inspired largely by what I
                thought was Green's ignoring of North Germanic in his treatment of
                day-names.

                Cheers,
                Carl

                --
                Carl Edlund Anderson
                mailto:cea@...
                http://www.carlaz.com/
              • Carl Witzel
                Carl Is the paper you speak of on your web site? Thanks Carl W. ... From: Carl Edlund Anderson To:
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 7, 2007
                  Carl

                  Is the paper you speak of on your web site?

                  Thanks

                  Carl W.


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Carl Edlund Anderson<mailto:cea@...>
                  To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com<mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:55 AM
                  Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: New Books


                  On 06/02/2007 22:04, llama_nom wrote:
                  > Okay, this isn't a new book, but I'm in a critical mood now...
                  > Language and History in the Early Germanic World. By D.H. GREEN.
                  > Cambridge University Press, 1998. Pp. xv + 444 pp.

                  I think Green's book covers a lot of interesting things, but I'm not
                  always convinced he's on very sure ground when he moves away from what
                  seems to be his area of comfort in West Germanic ....

                  In fact, back at the time the book came out, I presented a paper that
                  tried to look at day-names in the context of early borrowings from the
                  Roman world into North Germanic that was inspired largely by what I
                  thought was Green's ignoring of North Germanic in his treatment of
                  day-names.

                  Cheers,
                  Carl

                  --
                  Carl Edlund Anderson
                  mailto:cea@...<mailto:cea%40carlaz.com>
                  http://www.carlaz.com/<http://www.carlaz.com/>




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Carl Edlund Anderson
                  ... Yeah, or a version thereof, at least :) It s a bit buried on the site, but it s one of two semi-(un)polished pieces linked from
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 7, 2007
                    On 07 Feb 2007, at 20:03, Carl Witzel wrote:
                    > Is the paper you speak of on your web site?

                    Yeah, or a version thereof, at least :)

                    It's a bit buried on the site, but it's one of two semi-(un)polished
                    pieces linked from <http://www.carlaz.com/phd/bonus.html>.

                    Not a lot of Gothic content, admittedly ....

                    Cheers,
                    Carl

                    --
                    Carl Edlund Anderson
                    http://www.carlaz.com/
                  • Carl Witzel
                    Carl Many thanks! Carl ... From: Carl Edlund Anderson To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 7, 2007
                      Carl

                      Many thanks!

                      Carl


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Carl Edlund Anderson<mailto:cea@...>
                      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com<mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 4:06 PM
                      Subject: Re: [gothic-l] New Books



                      On 07 Feb 2007, at 20:03, Carl Witzel wrote:
                      > Is the paper you speak of on your web site?

                      Yeah, or a version thereof, at least :)

                      It's a bit buried on the site, but it's one of two semi-(un)polished
                      pieces linked from <http://www.carlaz.com/phd/bonus.html<http://www.carlaz.com/phd/bonus.html>>.

                      Not a lot of Gothic content, admittedly ....

                      Cheers,
                      Carl

                      --
                      Carl Edlund Anderson
                      http://www.carlaz.com/<http://www.carlaz.com/>





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • anheropl0x
                      Hails! Quick question. Is Ïohannes Þiudanes liuda bokosuh frisahteisuh grammatically correct? Thanks in advanced!
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 27, 2010
                        Hails!

                        Quick question. Is "Ïohannes Þiudanes liuda bokosuh frisahteisuh" grammatically correct? Thanks in advanced!
                      • OSCAR HERRE
                        what does the suh emphasize....were talking about jordanes book for example.... ... From: anheropl0x Subject: [gothic-l] Grammar To:
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 28, 2010
                          what does the suh emphasize....were talking about jordanes book for example....

                          --- On Sat, 3/27/10, anheropl0x <anheropl0x@...> wrote:


                          From: anheropl0x <anheropl0x@...>
                          Subject: [gothic-l] Grammar
                          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, March 27, 2010, 11:55 PM


                           



                          Hails!

                          Quick question. Is "Ïohannes Þiudanes liuda bokosuh frisahteisuh" grammatically correct? Thanks in advanced!








                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • anheropl0x
                          It s not so much the suh as it is the enclitic -uh. It s a way of saying and (jah) without another word. And I m not sure what you mean by Jordanes book.
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 28, 2010
                            It's not so much the suh as it is the enclitic -uh. It's a way of saying and (jah) without another word. And I'm not sure what you mean by Jordanes' book. Perhaps you mean De Origine Actibisque Getarum? Notice the enclitic -que used in Latin. It's the exact same thing as Gothic's -uh.

                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRE <duke.co@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > what does the suh emphasize....were talking about jordanes book for example....
                            >
                            > --- On Sat, 3/27/10, anheropl0x <anheropl0x@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: anheropl0x <anheropl0x@...>
                            > Subject: [gothic-l] Grammar
                            > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Saturday, March 27, 2010, 11:55 PM
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                            >  
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                            > Hails!
                            >
                            > Quick question. Is "Ïohannes Þiudanes liuda bokosuh frisahteisuh" grammatically correct? Thanks in advanced!
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                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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