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Re: [gothic-l] Re: About Villemann og Magnhild

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  • Rydwlf
    Dear Llama and all, Lately I haven t had much time to read the messages in the list... I m glad to see there are several about the Visigoths in Spain. I hope I
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 29, 2006
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      Dear Llama and all,

      Lately I haven't had much time to read the messages in the list... I'm glad to see there are several about the Visigoths in Spain. I hope I have time the next week to read them.

      Concerning my "attempted translation" of Villeman og Magnhild, thank you for the comments and corrections!

      I agree with your suggestions of skauns* compared with fagrs. My choice was based in the similarity with Norwegian "fagraste". Using skáuns* would yield skáunosts as superlative, if I'm right.

      So far, I have translated most of the song, although it is yet a rough translation. I have used your recommendations, which I find utterly correct and useful, as always. Thanks for that! One pending issue I have is trying a reconstruction for a Gothic verb "to play". Maybe I will review the OE plegian verb according to your comment about it.

      1. Villemann went to the river -
      Villemann(a) iddja (is) at ahvái -
      2. to the most beautiful of all linden -
      du skáunostamma lindabagma alláize -
      3. There he wanted to play the gold harp -
      thar wilda ei gulthaharpon slahan -
      4. Because the runes didn't augur well -
      unte runos ni brahtedun awi -
      5. Villemann went to stand up against the torrent -
      Villemann(a) iddja usstandan (gastandan?) withra rinnon -
      6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly -
      saruba (hadugba?) mahta (is) slahan gulthaharpon -
      7. He played it gently, he played it clever -
      ita sloh mith ---, ita sloh mith handugei -
      8. The bird calmed down on the green tree -
      fugls anaqal (?) ana gronamma bagma
      9. He played it gently, he played it loud -
      ita sloh mith --- , ita sloh mith thuta (?) -
      10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll -
      sloh (is) Magnhild ut trolis arma -
      11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -
      Than thar usstod trol af diupei sáiwis -
      12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds -
      swogs in báirgam jah theihvo in milham -
      13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght -
      than sloh (is) harpo grimmithba ana allái motha
      14. And took away the troll's strenght and power.
      jah usnam swinthein ut trolis arm.


      Some notes on the verses:

      1. Villemann went to the river - Villemann(a) iddja (is) at ahvái.
      I wonder what a good translation for the names Villemann and Magnhild would be...

      3. There he wanted to play the gold harp - thar wilda ei gulthaharpon slahan -
      I have used the construction "wiljan ei" as it appears in some places of the corpus, meaning "want to".

      4. Because the runes didn't augur well - unte runos ni brahtedun awi -
      After considering using the verbes gahaitan, fauragahaitan used as "promise", I have decided using a construction of the type "because the runes didn't bring luck". For "luck" I have used *awi, sn. and for "rune", runa, sf. although maybe runastafs, sm. would be more correct.

      6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly - saruba (hadugba?) mahta (is) slahan gulthaharpon
      Here I have formed the adverb saruba from #sarus, skillfull. Maybe it's more convenient to use handugba from handugs, clever, wise. I keep using slahan to mean hit in the sense of playing the harp by hitting the strings. "Is" would be emphatic and is used only for rhythmic purposes (although at this stage the whole translation is not very precise at rhythm).

      7. He played it gently, he played it clever - ita sloh mith ---, ita sloh mith handugei.
      I have used the structure "he played it with gentleness, he played it with cleverness" which is more akin to the original "han leika med lente, han leika med list". Another option for my translation would be using the subject instead of the object as I do, that is, using "is" instead of "ita". Anyway, I need a noun for "gentleness" or something similar. I have tried deriving a name from ·lintheis, gentle, nice, soft: would it be "·linthei"? Also, for "cleverness", I have derived "handugei" from handugs, clever, wise.

      8. The bird calmed down on the green tree - fugls anaqal (?) ana gronamma bagma.
      Used the past form of *anaqilan, sv.IV, become calm. Also the !groneis neologism invented by J.R.R.Tolkien, if I am not wrong.

      9. He played it gently, he played it loud - ita sloh mith --- , ita sloh mith thuta (?)-
      Same as above concerning "softness". I have used *thuts for "loudness".

      10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll - sloh (is) Magnhild ut trolis arma -
      A risky one. First, I replicate a syntactic structure found both in modern English and Norwegian that I'm not sure I have the "right" to use in Gothic. The original verse goes "Han leika Magnhild av nykkens arm" that can be roughly translated as "He played Magnhild out of the monster's arm". My second 'big one' is the neologism trols, which I consider particular risky :) I wait for your comments. I understand it is difficult to know if the Goths had an equivalent to the Nordic "troll", and if so, which was the word they might use (I know this topic may have been covered in any of the books that some of the members of this list has published, if it's so please tell! Another reason to order them -blush-)

      11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -Than thar usstod trol af diupei sáiwis -
      Let me remark how close this one sounds to the original "Men daa steig trolli upp or djupaste sjoe".

      12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds - swogs in báirgam jah theihvo in milham -
      The original says "Det gjalla i berg of det runga i sky". That is, the impersonal is used. My translation would go simply "noise in the mountains and thunder in the clouds". It is ok this way for me, but I'd like to know any suggestion of how to do the impersonal, be it in a "there is" construction. I have looked for it but hadn't had the time to search deeper.

      13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght - than sloh (is) harpo grimmithba ana allái motha.
      The original says "Daa slo han si harpa til bonns i sin harm". My translation for that would be "Then played he his harp until 'bonns' in his anger". So I have used the ·grimmitha, sf. as "fury" in the construction ana allái "in all...", cf. ana allái náuthái, "in all our affliction", suggested by Llama's dictionary.

      14. And took away the troll's strenght and power - jah usnam swinthein ut trolis arm.

      Also a parallel of the original "og utvinner krafti av trollenes arm".

      Thank you very much on advance, again, for your attention, comments and suggestions.
      Best regards,

      Rydwlf

      llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:

      Hails, Rydwlf!

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf wrote:
      >

      > - For "fagraste" I have used Go. fagrs in superlative grade,
      masculine gender (see later), vocative case. As it's an a-stem, it
      could take both -iz -ist or -oz -ost for the comparative and
      superlative. From comparison with other pure a-stem roots, I've chosen
      -ist, but I don't know if there should be other factors to take into
      account. For the moment, I have here "fagrists".


      No way of knowing that Go. 'fagrs' didn't have this meaning too, as in
      the other Germanic languages, but it's only attested with the meaning
      "fit, suitable, useful": nih du airþai, ni du maihstau fagr ist "it
      is fit neither for the earth nor the dungheap". The negative
      'unfagrs' is also attested just once, meaning "ungrateful": unte is
      gods ist þaim unfagram jah unseljam "for he is kind to the unthankful
      and the evil". Instead, the adjective skauns* is used for
      "beautiful". Probably an i-stem, cf. Finnish 'kaunis', but from the
      forms attested in Gothic there's nothing to rule out the possibility
      of its being a ja-/jo-stem: skauneis*.

      On the question of -i- or -o- in comparatives and superlatives of
      a-stems, the only tendency that I'm aware of is that with the
      exception of 'hlasoza' (see Streitberg 188, Note 1 [
      http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1920/HTML/B131.html ]), all the
      -o- forms have long roots:

      frodozans
      swinþoza
      usdaudoza
      lasiwostai
      armostai

      hlasoza

      But given the small number of examples, this might be a coincidence.
      Not all a-stems with long roots take the -o- forms:

      hauhistins
      managizo
      jûhiza

      fawizo
      raþizo? (positive unattested)

      Your choice of 'fagrists' would be in keeping with Old Norse, which
      shows i-umlaut.


      > - For "lindelauvi" I have found in Tunstall: lindabaums (sm.)
      "lime-tree, linden" (there's no entry in Wright's Glossary or
      Streitberg's Dictionary for this). I think that the correct spelling
      in Go. should be "lindabagms" if I'm not wrong. It is masculine so
      that makes "fagrists" go in masculine.


      I should have marked 'linda-bagms' as a reconstruction; sorry about
      that. The simplex *linda, sf. is given in Gerhard Köbler's Gotisches
      Wörterbuch, based on the Spanish personal names Lendo and Lentimil.


      > - For "alle" meaning "of all", I have used the Gen.pl.m. of "alls" :
      "alláize".
      >
      > So the sentence would go "Sái fagrists lindabagms alláize".
      >
      > 3. For the word "golden harp" that appears in some parts of the
      song, I have come to the Go. translation "gulþaharpa". For this I have
      based on "gulþ" (Wright: sn. "gold") and "harpa" (Tunstall: sf.
      "harp"; not found in Wright or Streitberg).


      *harpa is a reconstruction, not attested in the surviving Gothic
      corpus, but appears as a loanword in Italian, Provencal, French,
      Catalan, Spanish and Portuguese. Again, I must have forgotten to mark
      it as a reconstruction. Thanks for drawing my attention to that! I
      would have got it from Gerhard Köbler's Gotisches Wörterbuch, but by
      comparison with forms in other Germanic languages, a better
      reconstruction would probably be *harpo, weak f.


      > From this, according to the word-formation rules and being "gulþ" an
      a-stem, the final vowel of the first element should remain (see
      Wright's "Grammar of the Gothic Language", par. 389), thus
      "gulþaharpa" (also compare with "áiz", sn., "copper" -> "áizasmiþa",
      "coppersmith").


      Agreed.


      >
      > 4. For the verb "to play", you know already that there is no
      attested Gothic word for it, being the most similar the verb "swiglon"
      (wv. 2) with the meaning "to play the pipe". I was thinking here in
      trying to reconstruct a Gothic word akin to the one "play" comes from:
      OE "plegian" (Bright's "Old English Dictionary": (w.II) 1. play. 2.
      contend, fight"), but this proved too hard for me and I was not sure
      if the meaning of "perform music" was already present in the OE word
      or was a later added meaning. Then I turned to study the word used in
      the song, "slå". In Norwegian, Danish, Swedish and Icelandic ("slá")
      one of the common meanings is "to hit", and in a Danish dictionary I
      even found "to beat", which I think can be related to the style of
      playing the harp as "beating" or "pinching" the harp strings. Akin to
      this both in meaning and sound I consider the verb "slahan" (sv.VI) a
      good substitute.


      OE 'plegian' is attested with the sense of to play a musical
      instrument, with the instrument being in the instrumental case (or
      later dative); according to the OED, it isn't till the 18th c. that
      the earliest examples of 'play' used transitively with the name of an
      instrument are found; Early Modern English has 'play on/at/of".
      'slahan' seems quite reasonable though, and might be a safer bet.
      Good luck with the rest of the song!


      >
      > As told before, I'd like to read your opinions about this. If you
      also want to propose a translation, that would be perfect for me...
      Eager to read your comments, and giving thanks to you on advance,
      >
      > Rydwlf
      >
      > PS . There's a list of alternate versions and variations of this
      song in
      http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ballader/lister/tsbalfa_titler/tittel_314a.html
      > (Documentation Project by the Universities of Norway)
      >
      >
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    • llama_nom
      ... choice was based in the similarity with Norwegian fagraste . Using skáuns* would yield skáunosts as superlative, if I m right. Hi Rydwlf, I think the
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 3, 2006
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        > I agree with your suggestions of skauns* compared with fagrs. My
        choice was based in the similarity with Norwegian "fagraste". Using
        skáuns* would yield skáunosts as superlative, if I'm right.

        Hi Rydwlf,

        I think the superlative would be 'skáunists' for this one, as it was
        probably an i-stem (cf. Finnish 'kaunis' and the umlaut in Modern
        German 'schön'). Attested forms are: skaunjai, -skaunjamma, which
        could in theory point to i-stem, ja-stem or u-stem -- but the Finnish
        loan points to it having orgininally been an i-stem.

        LN
      • ualarauans
        Hails Rydwlf, ... ahvái. ... Magnhild would ... I don t know what the name means in Norwegian, so I m only guessing. If it s ville will + mann man , then
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 3, 2006
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          Hails Rydwlf,

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf <mitsuhippon@...> wrote:
          >
          > 1. Villemann went to the river - Villemann(a) iddja (is) at
          ahvái.
          > I wonder what a good translation for the names Villemann and
          Magnhild would
          > be...

          I don't know what the name means in Norwegian, so I'm only guessing.
          If it's ville "will" + mann "man", then Gothic *Wiljamanna would do.
          If the first element is from ON villr "wild", then perhaps *Wilþimanna.

          Magnhild is most likely Go. *Maginahildi F.-jo (gen. Maginahildjos)

          > 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp - thar wilda ei
          gulthaharpon slahan -
          > I have used the construction "wiljan ei" as it appears in some
          places of > the
          > corpus, meaning "want to".

          There's a subordinate clause after ei in such cases, not a mere
          infinitive: *wilda ei slahai... (subjunctive), lit. "he wished that he
          would slay..." (rather than "play":). It's a construction most usual
          with languages which have no morphological infinitive, like some of
          the Balkan language alliance. A Goth would simply say: *wilda
          slahan..., I think.

          > 4. Because the runes didn't augur well - unte runos ni brahtedun
          awi -
          > After considering using the verbes gahaitan, fauragahaitan used
          as "promise",
          > I have decided using a construction of the type "because the runes
          didn't bring
          > luck". For "luck" I have used *awi, sn. and for "rune", runa, sf.
          although maybe
          > runastafs, sm. would be more correct.

          We've had recently a nice discussion on both these lexemes when
          translating Hávamál into Gothic at Theudiskon. Proceeding from known
          elder-runic examples a construction Go. *awi giban was proposed in the
          sense "to give auspices". I'd also prefer Go. stafs for "runic letter"
          rather than runa attested solely as "secret", "mystery" (though I
          found myself in a minority with this opinion over there :). *Runastafs
          would be a fine compromise, I think.

          > 6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly - saruba (hadugba?)
          mahta (is)
          > slahan gulthaharpon
          > Here I have formed the adverb saruba from #sarus, skillfull.
          Maybe it's more
          > convenient to use handugba from handugs, clever, wise.

          An adverb of handugs would probably look like *handugo (no examples
          though). The word could have had a broader meaning than that is
          attested, cf. OCSl loanword xondogú "skillful", "experienced" < Go.
          handugs.

          > I keep using slahan to
          > mean hit in the sense of playing the harp by hitting the
          strings. "Is" would be
          > emphatic and is used only for rhythmic purposes (although at this
          stage the
          > whole translation is not very precise at rhythm).
          >
          > 7. He played it gently, he played it clever - ita sloh mith ---,
          ita sloh mith
          > handugei.
          > I have used the structure "he played it with gentleness, he
          played it with
          > cleverness" which is more akin to the original "han leika med lente,
          han leika
          > med list". Another option for my translation would be using the
          subject instead
          > of the object as I do, that is, using "is" instead of "ita". Anyway,
          I need a
          > noun for "gentleness" or something similar. I have tried deriving a
          name from
          > •lintheis, gentle, nice, soft: would it be "•linthei"?

          There's an adjective mildeis meaning smth like that. A derived nomen
          abstractum is mildiþa, an adverb to be reconstructed *mildjo or
          *mildjaba. Also, it's dative after miþ, so if you like to keep this
          way of saying you should probably put it miþ mildiþai. Note that
          leika:lente:list do alliterate in the original. To say 'laikan miþ
          listim (attested pl.)' would mean a quite different thing in Gothic,
          though.

          > Also, for "cleverness", I
          > have derived "handugei" from handugs, clever, wise.

          If you use handugo above for "skillfully", maybe it's better to go
          with a synonym here, e.g. snutrei?

          > 8. The bird calmed down on the green tree - fugls anaqal (?) ana
          gronamma
          > bagma.
          > Used the past form of *anaqilan, sv.IV, become calm. Also the !
          groneis
          > neologism invented by J.R.R.Tolkien, if I am not wrong.

          Not intending to dispute with J.R.R., I daresay he has not purely
          invented *groneis but reconstructed it after the other Old Germanic
          languages. And I guess he would agree that a dat. sg. masc. of groneis
          be gronjamma.

          > 9. He played it gently, he played it loud - ita sloh mith --- ,
          ita sloh mith
          > thuta (?)-
          > Same as above concerning "softness". I have used *thuts
          for "loudness".

          Is it separated from þut-haurn? Afaik there are other interpretations
          of this element beside "loud". How about *hluþs "loud" with a long
          [u:], after West Germanic?

          > 10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll - sloh
          (is) Magnhild
          > ut trolis arma -
          > A risky one. First, I replicate a syntactic structure found both
          in modern
          > English and Norwegian that I'm not sure I have the "right" to use in
          Gothic. The
          > original verse goes "Han leika Magnhild av nykkens arm" that can be
          roughly
          > translated as "He played Magnhild out of the monster's arm". My
          second 'big one'
          > is the neologism trols, which I consider particular risky :) I wait
          for your
          > comments.

          Photius' "Bibliotheca" contains an abstract of a longer work made by
          Olympiodorus of Thebes, pertaining to years 407-425. In 60b 31-34 we
          read: hOTI hOI OUANDALOI TOUS GOTQOUS TROULOUS KALOUSI DIA TO LIMWi
          PIEZOMENOUS AUTOUS TROULAN SITOU PARA TWN OUANDALWN AGORAZEIN hENOS
          CRUSINOU, hH DE TROULA OUDE TRITON XESTOU CWREI "The Vandals call the
          Goths TROULOI ("Truls"), because when [once] starving they (the Goths)
          bought from the Vandals a TROULA (basinful) of corn for the price of
          one golden coin, but the TROULA isn't equal to [even] a third of a
          XESTHS". XESTHS, Lat. sextarius is a measure = ca 0,5 lt. We know
          there was no great love between the Goths and the Vandals, and the
          latter were usually the suffering part in their mutual conflicts. They
          could easily have been telling some mocking jests and calling scornful
          names at their more successful cousins, but very unlikely they'd have
          used Greek words, speaking themselves the same tongue as the Goths.
          So, assertions were made (lacking the books to cite references, sorry)
          that the Vandals called the Goths the same name as is ON troll
          "monster", "stupid giant". It could be Go./Vand. *trull N.-a, pl.
          trulla. The rest of the story was apparently composed by some Greek
          author, maybe Olympiodorus himself, to give the name some sense for
          the reading late-Roman public. Like Gipedes in Isidor of Seville, you
          know.

          > I understand it is difficult to know if the Goths had an equivalent
          to
          > the Nordic "troll", and if so, which was the word they might use (I
          know this
          > topic may have been covered in any of the books that some of the
          members of this
          > list has published, if it's so please tell! Another reason to order
          them
          > -blush-)
          >
          > 11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -Than thar
          usstod trol
          > af diupei sáiwis -
          > Let me remark how close this one sounds to the original "Men daa
          steig trolli
          > upp or djupaste sjoe".

          Þan is not used initially. Af governs dative. Maybe, þanuh usstaig
          (urrais, usstoþ) þata trull (sa *trulla M.-an?) [iup] us diupistamma
          saiwa (us diupein saiwis)?

          > 12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds - swogs
          in báirgam
          > jah theihvo in milham -
          > The original says "Det gjalla i berg of det runga i sky". That
          is, the
          > impersonal is used. My translation would go simply "noise in the
          mountains and
          > thunder in the clouds". It is ok this way for me, but I'd like to
          know any
          > suggestion of how to do the impersonal, be it in a "there is"
          construction. I
          > have looked for it but hadn't had the time to search deeper.

          I guess a single finite verb 3rd pers. sg. would be enough. For
          instance, auhjoþ in bairgahein (bairga[m], fairgunja[m]) jah kriustiþ
          in milhmam [milhmin] (or: in himina). The verbs are something to think
          about.

          > 13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght - than
          sloh (is)
          > harpo grimmithba ana allái motha.
          > The original says "Daa slo han si harpa til bonns i sin harm". My
          translation
          > for that would be "Then played he his harp until 'bonns' in his
          anger". So I
          > have used the •grimmitha, sf. as "fury" in the construction ana
          allái "in
          > all...", cf. ana allái náuthái, "in all our affliction", suggested
          by Llama's
          > dictionary.
          >
          > 14. And took away the troll's strenght and power - jah usnam
          swinthein ut
          > trolis arm.
          >
          > Also a parallel of the original "og utvinner krafti av trollenes
          arm".

          ut is an adverb, not a preposition, in Gothic, afaik. Use better us +
          dat.

          Summing up some suggestions made above

          > 1. Villemann went to the river -
          > Wiljamanna (Wilþi- hic et passim) galaiþ du ahvai -
          > 2. to the most beautiful of all linden -
          > [qam at] skaunistamma allaize lindabagme -
          > 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp -
          > þarei wilda gulþaharpon slahan (?)-
          > 4. Because the runes didn't augur well -
          > unte (runa)stabeis awi ni gebun -
          > 5. Villemann went to stand up against the torrent -
          > gaiddja [nu] Wiljamanna [du] standan wiþra rinnon (I'm not sure I
          understand)-
          > 6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly -
          > handugo lista slahan (?) þo gulþaharpon –
          > 7. He played it gently, he played it clever -
          > þo (sc. þo harpon) sloh miþ mildiþai, þo sloh miþ snutrein -
          > 8. The bird calmed down on the green tree -
          > fugls anaqal (???) ana gronjamma bagma
          > 9. He played it gently, he played it loud -
          > þo sloh miþ mildiþai, þo sloh miþ hludein (?) -
          > 10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll -
          > sloh Maginahildja [ut] us trullis armam -
          > 11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -
          > Þanuh usstaig þata trull us diupein saiwis -
          > 12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds -
          > [fairweitei þize iupa qiþanane] -
          > 13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght -
          > þanuh-þan sloh þo harpon ...(?)
          > 14. And took away the troll's strenght and power.
          > jah ... maht [ut] us trullis arma.

          > > PS . There's a list of alternate versions and variations of this
          > song in
          >
          http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ballader/lister/tsbalfa_titler/tittel_314a.htm
          l
          > > (Documentation Project by the Universities of Norway)

          96 variations, wow! Which was your vorlage?

          Ualarauans
        • llama_nom
          ... Hails, Walhahrabn! ... The two possibilities are: wiljan (or some other verb of wishing/commanding/needing, etc.) + ei + subjunctive, or wiljan +
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 3, 2006
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
            >


            Hails, Walhahrabn!


            > > 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp - thar wilda ei
            > gulthaharpon slahan -
            > > I have used the construction "wiljan ei" as it appears in some
            > places of > the
            > > corpus, meaning "want to".
            >
            > There's a subordinate clause after ei in such cases, not a mere
            > infinitive: *wilda ei slahai... (subjunctive), lit. "he wished that he
            > would slay..." (rather than "play":). It's a construction most usual
            > with languages which have no morphological infinitive, like some of
            > the Balkan language alliance. A Goth would simply say: *wilda
            > slahan..., I think.


            The two possibilities are: 'wiljan' (or some other verb of
            wishing/commanding/needing, etc.) + 'ei' + subjunctive, or 'wiljan' +
            infinitive.

            (1) wiljau ei mis gibais ana mesa haubiþ Iohannis þis daupjandins.
            (2) wileis ei ni ogeis waldufni = QELEIS DE MH FOBEISQAI
            (3) ni þaurbum ei iswis meljaima = OU CREIAN ECETE hUMUN GRAFESQAI

            (4) jabai hvas wili afar mis gaggan

            Note especially (2) and (3) where the 'ei' + subjunctive clause in
            Gothic translates a Greek infinitive (see Streitber /Stopp 353.2; 312,
            Note 2). In (3), an 'ei' clause is used even though the subject is
            the same as in the main clause; but I wonder if there are any examples
            of this with 'wiljan' specifically, or if an infinitive was prefered
            in such circumstances with this particular verb? If we can't find any
            examples, the safest option would be to do as you say and use the
            infinitive here: 'wilda gulþaharpon slahan', rather than 'wilda ei
            gulþaharpon slohi' (preterite subjunctive to match the tense of 'wilda').

            LN
          • Rydwlf
            Hails Llama, Thank you for pointing that. I think you are right. So I will leave it as skáunists then. I even prefer it for rhytmhic reasons :) Thanks
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 3, 2006
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              Hails Llama,

              Thank you for pointing that. I think you are right. So I will leave it as "skáunists" then. I even prefer it for rhytmhic reasons :)

              Thanks again!

              Rydwlf.

              llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:

              > I agree with your suggestions of skauns* compared with fagrs. My
              choice was based in the similarity with Norwegian "fagraste". Using
              skáuns* would yield skáunosts as superlative, if I'm right.

              Hi Rydwlf,

              I think the superlative would be 'skáunists' for this one, as it was
              probably an i-stem (cf. Finnish 'kaunis' and the umlaut in Modern
              German 'schön'). Attested forms are: skaunjai, -skaunjamma, which
              could in theory point to i-stem, ja-stem or u-stem -- but the Finnish
              loan points to it having orgininally been an i-stem.

              LN



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            • Rydwlf
              Hails Ualarauans, Thank you for your comments and corrections! It s a nice way to learn this one :) ... Unfortunately, I don t know either what the name means
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 3, 2006
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                Hails Ualarauans,

                Thank you for your comments and corrections! It's a nice way to learn this one :)

                >I don't know what the name means in Norwegian, so I'm only guessing.
                >If it's ville "will" + mann "man", then Gothic *Wiljamanna would do.
                >If the first element is from ON villr "wild", then perhaps *Wilþimanna.

                Unfortunately, I don't know either what the name means in Norwegian... I have checked in dictionaries and 'vill' may be "wild, impetuous, savage". There is even 'villmann' meaning "savage". And then there is the verb 'ville' meaning "want, want to, will, wish". Would it be something like "Wild/Brave Man" or on the other hand "Willing Man"? In the end, one may say that both meanings are related somehow. Anyway I see that you have considered both possibilities. I've been looking for some analysis on the song (and the names on it) on the net but I've found none (at least in English). Until I find some, or get the opinion from some Norwegian friend, we can leave the two versions as possible.

                >Magnhild is most likely Go. *Maginahildi F.-jo (gen. Maginahildjos)

                I agree. Thank you for that also.

                >> 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp - thar wilda ei gulthaharpon slahan -
                >There's a subordinate clause after ei in such cases, not a mere
                >infinitive: *wilda ei slahai... (subjunctive), lit. "he wished that he
                >would slay..." (rather than "play":). It's a construction most usual
                >with languages which have no morphological infinitive, like some of
                >the Balkan language alliance. A Goth would simply say: *wilda
                >slahan..., I think.

                You're right again. Let's make it 'tharei wilda gulthaharpon slahan'-
                About using 'slahan' for 'playing', I use it as a substitute, more with the meaning of "hit, beat" the harp's strings (akin to Norwegian, Danish and Swedish "slå" and Icelandic "slá"). I fear that 'swiglon' had a meaning too associated with instruments like pipes or flutes and wouldn't fit with playing a harp, but I'm totally guessing here...

                >We've had recently a nice discussion on both these lexemes when
                >translating Hávamál into Gothic at Theudiskon. Proceeding from known
                >elder-runic examples a construction Go. *awi giban was proposed in the
                >sense "to give auspices". I'd also prefer Go. stafs for "runic letter"
                >rather than runa attested solely as "secret", "mystery" (though I
                >found myself in a minority with this opinion over there :). *Runastafs
                >would be a fine compromise, I think.

                Yes, I've seen a lot of movement in Theudiskon lately, and I wish I can dig on it soon :)
                About the attested meaning of 'runa', I know what you mean. Basing on the attested meaning we should circumscribe only to the "secret, mystery" meaning. I don't want to add more discussion to the one that you mention, specially being myself not an expert on Gothic... but anyway I think that maybe I'm also on the majority here, not sure :) Why? If the corpus contained a word meaning "rune" in the Germanic sense (which is impossible), and it was translated into Gothic as "runa", there would be no doubts. We all know it's not like this. I base then on the relationship of runes with secret knowledge, magic power, key to mysteries, etc, common in the Germanic cultures. Then I can imagine Wulfila translating Greek "mystery" or "secret" for "runa" so the Goths could immediately think in that meaning of something hidden (with a mythical/religious/mysterious taint). I beg Wulfila's and the scholar's pardon for my uneducated digression here :)

                Anyway, not having any solid proof for one option or the other, I also think that *Runastafs
                is a nice compromise :)

                >An adverb of handugs would probably look like *handugo (no examples
                >though). The word could have had a broader meaning than that is
                >attested, cf. OCSl loanword xondogú "skillful", "experienced" < Go.
                >handugs.

                Yes, I based in Wright's to form the adverb, but thank you for that interesting word formation.
                It's also interesting the formation of the 'mildiþa' nomen abstractum. Thank you for correcting me about the dative... I thought I had done that but I see I forgot to decline :) About the alliteration, it's a feature of the poem, like rhythm, that I'd love to keep in the translation, but it's proven so hard that by the moment I'll be just happy having the right semantics and syntax... maybe on a later stage I have the guts (and knowledge) to try an alliterative version :) The choice of 'snutrei' is a good one.

                >Not intending to dispute with J.R.R., I daresay he has not purely
                >invented *groneis but reconstructed it after the other Old Germanic
                >languages. And I guess he would agree that a dat. sg. masc. of groneis
                >be gronjamma.

                Yes, of course! I used the wrong word ('invented') here. It's a consequence of writing on a rush and late at night :) I beg my pardon to the Professor's memory! Also I put the dative form wrong... rats!

                >Is it separated from þut-haurn? Afaik there are other interpretations
                >of this element beside "loud". How about *hluþs "loud" with a long
                >[u:], after West Germanic?

                Yes and thus I should maybe had marked it as a reconstruction. Your suggestion about *hluþs is a good one methinks.

                Your reference of Photius' work is utterly interesting! Thank you very much for that. I think such an intention from Olympiodorus or other, similar as the ones you mention, towards their public, is very possible. Go./Vand. *trull N.-a, pl. trulla is too delicious and plausible for me to reject it :)

                >Þan is not used initially. Af governs dative. Maybe, þanuh usstaig
                >(urrais, usstoþ) þata trull (sa *trulla M.-an?) [iup] us diupistamma
                >saiwa (us diupein saiwis)?

                >I guess a single finite verb 3rd pers. sg. would be enough. For
                >instance, auhjoþ in bairgahein (bairga[m], fairgunja[m]) jah kriustiþ
                >in milhmam [milhmin] (or: in himina). The verbs are something to think
                >about.

                I agree with both your suggestions. I favour "Þanuh usstaig þata trull us diupein saiwis" over the others - for the 12th verse, auhjoþ in bairgam jah kriustiþ in milhmam would do nicely, although it's true that maybe there are better chances for this verse.

                >ut is an adverb, not a preposition, in Gothic, afaik. Use better us +
                >dat.

                Yep! Another silly mistake. I think I had the Norwegian text too present in my head...

                About the version used as a basis of my translation, it is the one that I have found more popularized in modern music; for example the folk singer Rita Eriksen has one version in her album "Tideland", and it's also somehow popular in the metal genre, since bands as the German medieval reconstrucionists In Extremo and the Norwegian band Storm have both released covers of this folk tunes in their albums. It is possible that one of these artists (probably Storm being Norwegian and having their album released in 1994 or so) had chosen one of the versions for any reason and then the other bands had covered it.

                Let me thank you again for your comprehensive and illustrating analysis!

                Cheers,

                Rydwlf.

                >Summing up some suggestions made above
                > 1. Villemann went to the river -
                > Wiljamanna (Wilþi- hic et passim) galaiþ du ahvai -
                > 2. to the most beautiful of all linden -
                > [qam at] skaunistamma allaize lindabagme -
                > 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp -
                > þarei wilda gulþaharpon slahan (?)-
                > 4. Because the runes didn't augur well -
                > unte (runa)stabeis awi ni gebun -
                > 5. Villemann went to stand up against the torrent -
                > gaiddja [nu] Wiljamanna [du] standan wiþra rinnon (I'm not sure I
                understand)-
                > 6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly -
                > handugo lista slahan (?) þo gulþaharpon –
                > 7. He played it gently, he played it clever -
                > þo (sc. þo harpon) sloh miþ mildiþai, þo sloh miþ snutrein -
                > 8. The bird calmed down on the green tree -
                > fugls anaqal (???) ana gronjamma bagma
                > 9. He played it gently, he played it loud -
                > þo sloh miþ mildiþai, þo sloh miþ hludein (?) -
                > 10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll -
                > sloh Maginahildja [ut] us trullis armam -
                > 11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -
                > Þanuh usstaig þata trull us diupein saiwis -
                > 12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds -
                > [fairweitei þize iupa qiþanane] -
                > 13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght -
                > þanuh-þan sloh þo harpon ...(?)
                > 14. And took away the troll's strenght and power.
                > jah ... maht [ut] us trullis arma.

                > > PS . There's a list of alternate versions and variations of this
                > song in
                >
                http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ballader/lister/tsbalfa_titler/tittel_314a.htm
                l
                > > (Documentation Project by the Universities of Norway

                ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                Hails Rydwlf,

                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf wrote:
                >
                > 1. Villemann went to the river - Villemann(a) iddja (is) at
                ahvái.
                > I wonder what a good translation for the names Villemann and
                Magnhild would
                > be...

                I don't know what the name means in Norwegian, so I'm only guessing.
                If it's ville "will" + mann "man", then Gothic *Wiljamanna would do.
                If the first element is from ON villr "wild", then perhaps *Wilþimanna.

                Magnhild is most likely Go. *Maginahildi F.-jo (gen. Maginahildjos)

                > 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp - thar wilda ei
                gulthaharpon slahan -
                > I have used the construction "wiljan ei" as it appears in some
                places of > the
                > corpus, meaning "want to".

                There's a subordinate clause after ei in such cases, not a mere
                infinitive: *wilda ei slahai... (subjunctive), lit. "he wished that he
                would slay..." (rather than "play":). It's a construction most usual
                with languages which have no morphological infinitive, like some of
                the Balkan language alliance. A Goth would simply say: *wilda
                slahan..., I think.

                > 4. Because the runes didn't augur well - unte runos ni brahtedun
                awi -
                > After considering using the verbes gahaitan, fauragahaitan used
                as "promise",
                > I have decided using a construction of the type "because the runes
                didn't bring
                > luck". For "luck" I have used *awi, sn. and for "rune", runa, sf.
                although maybe
                > runastafs, sm. would be more correct.

                We've had recently a nice discussion on both these lexemes when
                translating Hávamál into Gothic at Theudiskon. Proceeding from known
                elder-runic examples a construction Go. *awi giban was proposed in the
                sense "to give auspices". I'd also prefer Go. stafs for "runic letter"
                rather than runa attested solely as "secret", "mystery" (though I
                found myself in a minority with this opinion over there :). *Runastafs
                would be a fine compromise, I think.

                > 6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly - saruba (hadugba?)
                mahta (is)
                > slahan gulthaharpon
                > Here I have formed the adverb saruba from #sarus, skillfull.
                Maybe it's more
                > convenient to use handugba from handugs, clever, wise.

                An adverb of handugs would probably look like *handugo (no examples
                though). The word could have had a broader meaning than that is
                attested, cf. OCSl loanword xondogú "skillful", "experienced" < Go.
                handugs.

                > I keep using slahan to
                > mean hit in the sense of playing the harp by hitting the
                strings. "Is" would be
                > emphatic and is used only for rhythmic purposes (although at this
                stage the
                > whole translation is not very precise at rhythm).
                >
                > 7. He played it gently, he played it clever - ita sloh mith ---,
                ita sloh mith
                > handugei.
                > I have used the structure "he played it with gentleness, he
                played it with
                > cleverness" which is more akin to the original "han leika med lente,
                han leika
                > med list". Another option for my translation would be using the
                subject instead
                > of the object as I do, that is, using "is" instead of "ita". Anyway,
                I need a
                > noun for "gentleness" or something similar. I have tried deriving a
                name from
                > •lintheis, gentle, nice, soft: would it be "•linthei"?

                There's an adjective mildeis meaning smth like that. A derived nomen
                abstractum is mildiþa, an adverb to be reconstructed *mildjo or
                *mildjaba. Also, it's dative after miþ, so if you like to keep this
                way of saying you should probably put it miþ mildiþai. Note that
                leika:lente:list do alliterate in the original. To say 'laikan miþ
                listim (attested pl.)' would mean a quite different thing in Gothic,
                though.

                > Also, for "cleverness", I
                > have derived "handugei" from handugs, clever, wise.

                If you use handugo above for "skillfully", maybe it's better to go
                with a synonym here, e.g. snutrei?

                > 8. The bird calmed down on the green tree - fugls anaqal (?) ana
                gronamma
                > bagma.
                > Used the past form of *anaqilan, sv.IV, become calm. Also the !
                groneis
                > neologism invented by J.R.R.Tolkien, if I am not wrong.

                Not intending to dispute with J.R.R., I daresay he has not purely
                invented *groneis but reconstructed it after the other Old Germanic
                languages. And I guess he would agree that a dat. sg. masc. of groneis
                be gronjamma.

                > 9. He played it gently, he played it loud - ita sloh mith --- ,
                ita sloh mith
                > thuta (?)-
                > Same as above concerning "softness". I have used *thuts
                for "loudness".

                Is it separated from þut-haurn? Afaik there are other interpretations
                of this element beside "loud". How about *hluþs "loud" with a long
                [u:], after West Germanic?

                > 10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll - sloh
                (is) Magnhild
                > ut trolis arma -
                > A risky one. First, I replicate a syntactic structure found both
                in modern
                > English and Norwegian that I'm not sure I have the "right" to use in
                Gothic. The
                > original verse goes "Han leika Magnhild av nykkens arm" that can be
                roughly
                > translated as "He played Magnhild out of the monster's arm". My
                second 'big one'
                > is the neologism trols, which I consider particular risky :) I wait
                for your
                > comments.

                Photius' "Bibliotheca" contains an abstract of a longer work made by
                Olympiodorus of Thebes, pertaining to years 407-425. In 60b 31-34 we
                read: hOTI hOI OUANDALOI TOUS GOTQOUS TROULOUS KALOUSI DIA TO LIMWi
                PIEZOMENOUS AUTOUS TROULAN SITOU PARA TWN OUANDALWN AGORAZEIN hENOS
                CRUSINOU, hH DE TROULA OUDE TRITON XESTOU CWREI "The Vandals call the
                Goths TROULOI ("Truls"), because when [once] starving they (the Goths)
                bought from the Vandals a TROULA (basinful) of corn for the price of
                one golden coin, but the TROULA isn't equal to [even] a third of a
                XESTHS". XESTHS, Lat. sextarius is a measure = ca 0,5 lt. We know
                there was no great love between the Goths and the Vandals, and the
                latter were usually the suffering part in their mutual conflicts. They
                could easily have been telling some mocking jests and calling scornful
                names at their more successful cousins, but very unlikely they'd have
                used Greek words, speaking themselves the same tongue as the Goths.
                So, assertions were made (lacking the books to cite references, sorry)
                that the Vandals called the Goths the same name as is ON troll
                "monster", "stupid giant". It could be Go./Vand. *trull N.-a, pl.
                trulla. The rest of the story was apparently composed by some Greek
                author, maybe Olympiodorus himself, to give the name some sense for
                the reading late-Roman public. Like Gipedes in Isidor of Seville, you
                know.

                > I understand it is difficult to know if the Goths had an equivalent
                to
                > the Nordic "troll", and if so, which was the word they might use (I
                know this
                > topic may have been covered in any of the books that some of the
                members of this
                > list has published, if it's so please tell! Another reason to order
                them
                > -blush-)
                >
                > 11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -Than thar
                usstod trol
                > af diupei sáiwis -
                > Let me remark how close this one sounds to the original "Men daa
                steig trolli
                > upp or djupaste sjoe".

                Þan is not used initially. Af governs dative. Maybe, þanuh usstaig
                (urrais, usstoþ) þata trull (sa *trulla M.-an?) [iup] us diupistamma
                saiwa (us diupein saiwis)?

                > 12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds - swogs
                in báirgam
                > jah theihvo in milham -
                > The original says "Det gjalla i berg of det runga i sky". That
                is, the
                > impersonal is used. My translation would go simply "noise in the
                mountains and
                > thunder in the clouds". It is ok this way for me, but I'd like to
                know any
                > suggestion of how to do the impersonal, be it in a "there is"
                construction. I
                > have looked for it but hadn't had the time to search deeper.

                I guess a single finite verb 3rd pers. sg. would be enough. For
                instance, auhjoþ in bairgahein (bairga[m], fairgunja[m]) jah kriustiþ
                in milhmam [milhmin] (or: in himina). The verbs are something to think
                about.

                > 13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght - than
                sloh (is)
                > harpo grimmithba ana allái motha.
                > The original says "Daa slo han si harpa til bonns i sin harm". My
                translation
                > for that would be "Then played he his harp until 'bonns' in his
                anger". So I
                > have used the •grimmitha, sf. as "fury" in the construction ana
                allái "in
                > all...", cf. ana allái náuthái, "in all our affliction", suggested
                by Llama's
                > dictionary.
                >
                > 14. And took away the troll's strenght and power - jah usnam
                swinthein ut
                > trolis arm.
                >
                > Also a parallel of the original "og utvinner krafti av trollenes
                arm".

                ut is an adverb, not a preposition, in Gothic, afaik. Use better us +
                dat.

                Summing up some suggestions made above

                > 1. Villemann went to the river -
                > Wiljamanna (Wilþi- hic et passim) galaiþ du ahvai -
                > 2. to the most beautiful of all linden -
                > [qam at] skaunistamma allaize lindabagme -
                > 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp -
                > þarei wilda gulþaharpon slahan (?)-
                > 4. Because the runes didn't augur well -
                > unte (runa)stabeis awi ni gebun -
                > 5. Villemann went to stand up against the torrent -
                > gaiddja [nu] Wiljamanna [du] standan wiþra rinnon (I'm not sure I
                understand)-
                > 6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly -
                > handugo lista slahan (?) þo gulþaharpon –
                > 7. He played it gently, he played it clever -
                > þo (sc. þo harpon) sloh miþ mildiþai, þo sloh miþ snutrein -
                > 8. The bird calmed down on the green tree -
                > fugls anaqal (???) ana gronjamma bagma
                > 9. He played it gently, he played it loud -
                > þo sloh miþ mildiþai, þo sloh miþ hludein (?) -
                > 10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll -
                > sloh Maginahildja [ut] us trullis armam -
                > 11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -
                > Þanuh usstaig þata trull us diupein saiwis -
                > 12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds -
                > [fairweitei þize iupa qiþanane] -
                > 13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght -
                > þanuh-þan sloh þo harpon ...(?)
                > 14. And took away the troll's strenght and power.
                > jah ... maht [ut] us trullis arma.

                > > PS . There's a list of alternate versions and variations of this
                > song in
                >
                http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ballader/lister/tsbalfa_titler/tittel_314a.htm
                l
                > > (Documentation Project by the Universities of Norway)

                96 variations, wow! Which was your vorlage?

                Ualarauans



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              • Ingemar Nordgren
                Hi Rydwlf and Ualarauans, Maybe I complicate it for you but there is still another meaning of vill . It can as well mean to get lost in e.g. the wood, lose
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 4, 2006
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                  Hi Rydwlf and Ualarauans,

                  Maybe I complicate it for you but there is still another meaning of
                  'vill'. It can as well mean to 'get lost'in e.g. the wood, 'lose the
                  track to the goal' and also to be confused et c. In a song is e.g.
                  written 'i villande skogen' meaning 'in the wood that lures you to go
                  wrong', confuses your perception. Villeman then could mean somebody
                  that lost his way either we talk of a real road or just use it as a
                  metaphor when somebody can't concentrate on reality but instead
                  fancies et c. An exellent description of a bard fallen in love, heh?

                  Don't take this too seriously since I as well dare not say the exact
                  meaning of the name.

                  Best
                  Ingemar


                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf <mitsuhippon@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hails Ualarauans,
                  >
                  > Thank you for your comments and corrections! It's a nice way to
                  learn this one :)
                  >
                  > >I don't know what the name means in Norwegian, so I'm only guessing.
                  > >If it's ville "will" + mann "man", then Gothic *Wiljamanna would do.
                  > >If the first element is from ON villr "wild", then perhaps *Wilþimanna.
                  >
                  > Unfortunately, I don't know either what the name means in
                  Norwegian... I have checked in dictionaries and 'vill' may be "wild,
                  impetuous, savage". There is even 'villmann' meaning "savage". And
                  then there is the verb 'ville' meaning "want, want to, will, wish".
                  Would it be something like "Wild/Brave Man" or on the other hand
                  "Willing Man"? In the end, one may say that both meanings are related
                  somehow. Anyway I see that you have considered both possibilities.
                  I've been looking for some analysis on the song (and the names on it)
                  on the net but I've found none (at least in English). Until I find
                  some, or get the opinion from some Norwegian friend, we can leave the
                  two versions as possible.
                  >
                • Rydwlf
                  Hails Ingemar, The proposal you make of a third possible meaning for Villeman makes it even more interesting :) It would be nice if we could find a Gothic
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 5, 2006
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                    Hails Ingemar,

                    The proposal you make of a third possible meaning for Villeman makes it even more interesting :)
                    It would be nice if we could find a Gothic word/root that in some way could imply the 3 same meanings... but I think that's hard. Is there any Gothic root with that "get lost" meaning and a phonetic structure similar to "wil" ? In that case one could always leave the name as "Wilmanna" and bypass the etymologic problem (or better, undergo it).

                    Thanks and regards,

                    Rydwlf.

                    Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote:
                    Hi Rydwlf and Ualarauans,

                    Maybe I complicate it for you but there is still another meaning of
                    'vill'. It can as well mean to 'get lost'in e.g. the wood, 'lose the
                    track to the goal' and also to be confused et c. In a song is e.g.
                    written 'i villande skogen' meaning 'in the wood that lures you to go
                    wrong', confuses your perception. Villeman then could mean somebody
                    that lost his way either we talk of a real road or just use it as a
                    metaphor when somebody can't concentrate on reality but instead
                    fancies et c. An exellent description of a bard fallen in love, heh?

                    Don't take this too seriously since I as well dare not say the exact
                    meaning of the name.

                    Best
                    Ingemar


                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf wrote:
                    >
                    > Hails Ualarauans,
                    >
                    > Thank you for your comments and corrections! It's a nice way to
                    learn this one :)
                    >
                    > >I don't know what the name means in Norwegian, so I'm only guessing.
                    > >If it's ville "will" + mann "man", then Gothic *Wiljamanna would do.
                    > >If the first element is from ON villr "wild", then perhaps *Wilþimanna.
                    >
                    > Unfortunately, I don't know either what the name means in
                    Norwegian... I have checked in dictionaries and 'vill' may be "wild,
                    impetuous, savage". There is even 'villmann' meaning "savage". And
                    then there is the verb 'ville' meaning "want, want to, will, wish".
                    Would it be something like "Wild/Brave Man" or on the other hand
                    "Willing Man"? In the end, one may say that both meanings are related
                    somehow. Anyway I see that you have considered both possibilities.
                    I've been looking for some analysis on the song (and the names on it)
                    on the net but I've found none (at least in English). Until I find
                    some, or get the opinion from some Norwegian friend, we can leave the
                    two versions as possible.
                    >



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                  • llama_nom
                    Hi Ingemar, This meaning is found in Old Norse too; it s another sense of the adjective cognate with English wild (cf. bewildered ), Go. wilþeis . LN ...
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 5, 2006
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                      Hi Ingemar,

                      This meaning is found in Old Norse too; it's another sense of the
                      adjective cognate with English 'wild' (cf. 'bewildered'), Go. 'wilþeis'.

                      LN


                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Rydwlf and Ualarauans,
                      >
                      > Maybe I complicate it for you but there is still another meaning of
                      > 'vill'. It can as well mean to 'get lost'in e.g. the wood, 'lose the
                      > track to the goal' and also to be confused et c. In a song is e.g.
                      > written 'i villande skogen' meaning 'in the wood that lures you to go
                      > wrong', confuses your perception. Villeman then could mean somebody
                      > that lost his way either we talk of a real road or just use it as a
                      > metaphor when somebody can't concentrate on reality but instead
                      > fancies et c. An exellent description of a bard fallen in love, heh?
                      >
                      > Don't take this too seriously since I as well dare not say the exact
                      > meaning of the name.
                      >
                      > Best
                      > Ingemar
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf <mitsuhippon@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hails Ualarauans,
                      > >
                      > > Thank you for your comments and corrections! It's a nice way to
                      > learn this one :)
                      > >
                      > > >I don't know what the name means in Norwegian, so I'm only
                      guessing.
                      > > >If it's ville "will" + mann "man", then Gothic *Wiljamanna would do.
                      > > >If the first element is from ON villr "wild", then perhaps
                      *Wilþimanna.
                      > >
                      > > Unfortunately, I don't know either what the name means in
                      > Norwegian... I have checked in dictionaries and 'vill' may be "wild,
                      > impetuous, savage". There is even 'villmann' meaning "savage". And
                      > then there is the verb 'ville' meaning "want, want to, will, wish".
                      > Would it be something like "Wild/Brave Man" or on the other hand
                      > "Willing Man"? In the end, one may say that both meanings are related
                      > somehow. Anyway I see that you have considered both possibilities.
                      > I've been looking for some analysis on the song (and the names on it)
                      > on the net but I've found none (at least in English). Until I find
                      > some, or get the opinion from some Norwegian friend, we can leave the
                      > two versions as possible.
                      > >
                      >
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