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Re: Visigothic identity of Spain

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  • Amer Sulejmanagic
    Just a few remarks on discussion It is possible that some Arians gladly accepted Islam, but Muslim did not have some special relations with Arianism
    Message 1 of 65 , Oct 26, 2006
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      Just a few remarks on discussion

      It is possible that some Arians gladly accepted Islam, but Muslim did
      not have some special relations with Arianism particularly. According
      to Shahristani all Christian sects can be divided in:
      1. Orthodox Trinitary Faith (Melkitism, Nestorianism, Yakobism)
      2. Unorthodox Trinitary Faith (Macedonianism, Sabelism, Arianism)
      In fact Muslims were not interested in Christian heretical divisions.

      The northern border of Islam in Spain? There is a possibility that
      north of Spain was not completely Christian. Basques that defeated
      Charlemagne in Ronseval Pass most probably were Islamized.

      Contacts of Manicheism and Arianism in the Balkans. There are clear
      evidences that in 5th and 6th century Manicheistic church existed in
      Bistua Nova (Roman Municipium) near today's Zenica in Central Bosnia.
      Northeast from there were three Illyric Arian centres: Sirmium
      (Sremska Mitrovica), Mursa (Osijek) and Singidunum (Belgrade); and
      Southwest from Zenica was one Arina centre: Salona (near Split). When
      Slavs came to Balkans most of Romanized population fled to Bosnian
      mountains and to Adriatic islands. There is great possibility that
      Slavs in Bosnia were not Christianized in great number in 9th
      century, and that Manicheism of late antiquity survived till the
      Cathar movement.

      Best regards,
      Amer




      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
      >
      > I presume you have read Obolenskys book
      >
      > http://www.stavgard.com/medeltid/bogomils_/default.htm
      >
      > Tore
      >
      > On Oct 25, 2006, at 12:57 AM, macmaster@... wrote:
      >
      > > Are there any contemporary sources that discuss these
      Septimanian
      > > Arians?
      > > Also, didn't the Bosnian Bogomils give rise to the Cathars
      (hence
      > > their
      > > 'nicname' of Bulgar & the root of English "bugger"!) while those
      were
      > > rooted in groups from eastern Anatolia?
      > > I'm not sure one can trace a Gothic element in the Albigensians/
      > > Cathars
      > > any more than one can in Huguenots or Jansenists!
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > Tom MacMaster
      > >
      > > Ingemar Nordgren wrote:
      > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "michelsauvant"
      <michelsauvant@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > >> Hello,
      > > >>
      > > >> I red also that some cathars were refugied among the Bosnian,
      > > >> because they were prosecuted in South of France (13th century).
      > > >>
      > > >> I red also that catharism in South of France started from a
      > > >> religious group living in Bulgaria around the 10th century.
      > > >>
      > > >> I red also that the last parts of Visigothic kingdom still
      arian
      > > >> during the 7th, 8 th century was the Septimanie and the country
      > > >> around Barcelona. Even during muslim reign they was an arian
      > > >> visigothic king in Septimania.
      > > >> And the lords living there where often battle against the
      catholic
      > > >> power in Toledo. N.B. The Catalans, since that time, followed
      these
      > > >> tradition until now against Madrid, even if the religion is
      not the
      > > >> cause of their opposition since centuries.
      > > >>
      > > >> The heart of cathar country ( where the cathar castles are stil
      > > >> there) is geographicly a part of the Visigothic Septimania.
      > > >>
      > > >> During the 9th century, the emperor Carolus Magnus forced
      people
      > > >> living there to become catholics. I assume that a part of them
      > > >> became cathars because of the arian tradition to be opposed to
      Roma
      > > >> (of course they were heretics for Roma).
      > > >>
      > > >> My conclusion is the likely continuity between arian
      Visigothics,
      > > >> and some bosnians Ancestors through cathar people, with a
      common
      > > >> opposition to Roma.
      > > >>
      > > >> Michel
      > > >
      > > > Salut Michel!
      > > >
      > > > Je suis très heureuse pour le verification de ma
      > > hypothèse!
      > > > I have all the time connected the later Cathars and Albingenses
      with
      > > > an inbreed from former Arians. Specially the tolerance included
      is
      > > > mutual for them and Germanic Arianism.And, as you say, they
      were
      > > then
      > > > used to be regarded as heretics. I however did not know there
      was an
      > > > Arian king in Septimania that late, but it indeed explains a
      lot. It
      > > > also gives a new light on the debated Agots/Cagots which I
      have
      > > indeed
      > > > suspected to be Arian outcasts after the formal conversion of
      the
      > > > Visigothic realm into Catholicism. Your information strengthens
      this
      > > > hypothesis.
      > > >
      > > > Salutations cordiales!
      > > > Ingemar
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Rydwlf
      Hails, Ualarauans! Sorry for answering this so late! I ve been terribly busy lately. Thank you for your list of reconstructed names for the Visigothic Kings,
      Message 65 of 65 , Nov 30, 2006
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        Hails, Ualarauans!

        Sorry for answering this so late! I've been terribly busy lately.
        Thank you for your list of reconstructed names for the Visigothic Kings, and your comments about the 'godo' phrases... I'm glad you found them interesting.

        >The points 3 and 4 – don't they
        >suggest a chance that the name of the Goths, like one of the Franks,
        >could have persisted and spread over the whole country? In which
        >case we'd probably have "Gothia" over the Pyrenees now.

        Interesting... taking into account that the Spanish first reached America in the end of Fifteenth Century, this use of 'godo' in Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia was probably shows that the word 'godo' was used with the meanings of "pertaining to an old nobility". At that time, the end of the Reconquista was taking place. What could be the meanings associated with that word, and the Goths in general, at that time? Here it would be interesting checking if Antonio de Nebrija (1441-1522) mentions the word in his dictionaries. I don't have any means to check that now, but I have the chance I'll post here whatever I find.

        Anyway I have found this text, while searching for an e-text of the Nebrija's dictionary http://descargas.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/35727252323249052754491/003278_3.pdf
        It is very interesting... the title is "Royal and Imperial Catalogue", subtitled as "General History of emperors, high priests, kings and lords of Castille, France and other provinces of Europe, from the first of these titles until the year 1532, by Gonzalo Fernández de Oviedo y de Valdés". In several places of the text, (using the "search" function... I haven't read the 1952 pages the text has!) the author remarks the continuity of the current King at his time as descending directly from the Goth kings.

        Some comments in that text show that the generalized idea on that time was that the royal family was the direct descendant of the Goth kings. Of course this idea was also promoted by the governors themselves. The idea of Spain being born as a nation with the consolidation of the Visigothic Kingdom comres originally from the "Historia Gothorum" by Isidore of Seville. The same appears in the "Historia Gothica" by the archbishop Rodrigo Jiménez de Rada. The concept of the Spanish kings as directly descending in lineage from the Visigothic Kings was probably born in the first years of the Reconquista (sorry, no sources here... probably you know them better than me!). It was used for sure after the Reconquista too, so most probably at that time the word "godo" was used to refer to that old almost mythic lineage of a glorious past.

        About the modern use of "hacerse de los godos" or "ser godo", I must recognize I have never listened to anyone using it, although I had the knowledge about the expression before I was interested in Gothic history; so if anyone would have used it, I'd have understood her. I suppose it will become an archaic expression in some years. It may be more frequent in the Canary Islands, though... I'll try to ask that.

        >"Ni rahnjand miþ framaþjaim þans riurjandans sidu godana, ak þans
        >izei swe ik gaainanaidai sind." – Gregaurius Pairilmanna

        ----> Wow! Sái! Cool :) Thank you for that.

        ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote:
        Hails, Rydwlf

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf wrote:
        >
        > There are some translations and definitions, anyway, about
        the "godo" word in
        > modern Spanish. According (again) to the DRAE:
        >
        > godo, goda.
        > (From Lat. Gothus).
        > 1. adj. A person of an ancient Germanic people, founder of
        kingdoms in Spain
        > and Italy. Can also be used as a noun.
        > 2. adj. A wealthy and powerful person, originary from the
        iberian families
        > that, confused with the invading goths, formed part of the
        nobility at the time
        > when the Spanish nation was formed. Can also be used as a noun.
        > 3. adj. (Used in the Canary Islands, despective). A Spanish
        from continental
        > Spain. Can also be used as a noun.
        > 4. adj. (Used in Bolivia and Chile, despective). Spanish
        (Spaniard, born in
        > Spain). Can be also used as a noun. Used with the same meaning in
        other places
        > of America.
        > 5. adj. (Used in Venezuela). Pertaining to the conservative
        party in the XIX
        > century, and also, of conservative ideas. Also used as a noun when
        referring to
        > people.
        > 6. adj. (germanic). Gothic (noble, distinguished).

        A very instructive account. Thanks! The points 3 and 4 – don't they
        suggest a chance that the name of the Goths, like one of the Franks,
        could have persisted and spread over the whole country? In which
        case we'd probably have "Gothia" over the Pyrenees now.

        > Expression: "hacerse de los godos". 1. to make ostentation of
        oneself's
        nobility arms.
        > (translation: "make oneself of the Goths".).
        > Expression: "ser godo". 1. To be of old nobility.
        > (translation: "to be Goth".).

        Yes, I knew exactly these two, and I thought there are some more.
        Are they used in current Spanish as mere phraseologisms,
        irrespectively of the Goths in a narrower sense? I mean, could you
        say, for example, of an English lord or even of an Indian maharaja
        that he "es Godo" or "se hace de los Godos"?

        > gótico, gótica.
        > (From Lat. gothicus).
        > 1. adj. Pertaining or related to the Goths.
        > 2. adj. Concerning the artistic forms developed in Europe from
        the XII century
        > to the Renaissance. Can be also used as a noun.
        > 3. adj. Written or printed in gothic letter.
        > 4. adj. Pertaining or related to gothic novelty.
        > 5. adj. Noble, distinguished.
        > 6. adj. (colloquial). Cutesy, prissy (when referring to a
        person).
        > 7. m. Germanic language spoken by the Goths.


        > "It is not people who break ethical standards who are regarded as
        aliens. It is
        > people like me who are isolated." - Grigori Perelman.

        A Gothic version:

        "Ni rahnjand miþ framaþjaim þans riurjandans sidu godana, ak þans
        izei swe ik gaainanaidai sind." – Gregaurius Pairilmanna

        Ualarauans




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        Rydwlf

        "It is not people who break ethical standards who are regarded as aliens. It is people like me who are isolated." - Grigori Perelman.


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