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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Visigothic identity of Spain

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  • macmaster@riseup.net
    What evidence is there of persecution of Jews by Arian Christians? I am not familiar with any (and more recall the Jews of Naples fighting for an Arian Italy,
    Message 1 of 65 , Oct 20, 2006
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      What evidence is there of persecution of Jews by Arian Christians? I am
      not familiar with any (and more recall the Jews of Naples fighting for an
      Arian Italy, etc)

      Also, my assumption is that many more "sons of Visigoths" converted to
      Islam than went north and that the Spanish reconquista is far less the
      'heir' of Visigothic Spain than the Khilafah in Cordoba was

      Thanks,
      Tom
      faltin2001 wrote:
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@...>
      > wrote:
      >>
      >> Hi Tom!
      >>
      >> You wrote:
      >>
      >> > Actually, the Arian creed saw Jesus as a human and a Prophet,
      > born
      >> of the
      >> > Virgin Mary and ascended into heaven after the resurection rather
      >> than as
      >> > a part of the Godhead; the view of Jesus in Islam is almost
      > identical
      >> > (some scholars think Muhammad may have been influenced by Arian-
      > like
      >> > Christians in Arabia)
      >> >
      >> > Tom MacMaster
      >>
      >> I totally agree with you about the Arian original thinking. This
      > is in
      >> the time of Arius and soon afterwards, but still this is the basic
      >> concept. The compromises in Nicea and Constantinople however
      > explained
      >> that Christ was the first created entity and had existed before
      >> makind. Still he was regarded however as different from the Father.
      >> Since we now call him Christ and not Jesus there lies the
      > implication
      >> that he was rather an incarnation of God instead of actually
      >> resurrected/reborn and so he returns to the basic condition as
      > divined
      >> righteous prophet. This does indeed lie close to Islam, and an
      > Arian
      >> might quite easily convert during such circumstances as in Spain.
      > The
      >> fact that Reccared and some leading nobles accepted Catholicism
      > from
      >> 586 gradually and that the Catholic Toledo councils were raving
      > lakeys
      >> of the pope in persecution of Jews, resulting in the final defeat
      > in
      >> 711, does not mean the general population of Goths had lost their
      >> Arian roots even in 711. Hence it is not at all improbable that
      > many
      >> Goths converted into Islam then.
      >>
      >> Best
      >> Ingemar
      >>
      >
      >
      > Hi Ingemar,
      >
      > you should know that already the Arian Visigoths had percecuted the
      > Jews and you should also know that Visigothic Spain had almost no
      > contact with the pope in Rome. There is a very good book on the
      > Visigothic church, which I have recommended to you earlier. The
      > author shows nicely that the contact between Rome and Toledo was so
      > spuradic that sometimes 10 to 20 years could pass without any letter
      > or any other communication exchanged betweeen the Roman and the
      > Visigothic churches.
      >
      > I know you like to present the Goths in general as the good guys of
      > history _ the righteous warriors of justice, tolerance and moral
      > superiority. Such a presentations moves like a red line through
      > everything you right about the Goths. Yet, this is just not the
      > right way to go about it.
      >
      > The Visigoths fled to Spain after their terrible defeat by the
      > Franks in 507, when many of them were killed. The remnants created a
      > feeble state, that was ruled by weak and often cruel kings who
      > ordered the percecution of other minorities like the Jews. Only
      > under Reccared, who initiated the conversion to Catholicism did the
      > state gain in stability and some power, culminating in the
      > eradication of the last Byzantine bastions on Spanish soil in the
      > early 7th century under Sisebut and Swinthila.
      >
      > From the mid 7th century economic crises and incompetence greately
      > eroded state power. The various often very cruel Visigothic kings
      > conducted regular percecutions of the Visigothic nobility in which
      > many were killed, often with their entire families, or they fled to
      > the Frankish kingdom. Towards the end of the century, instability
      > and paranoia were once again rife in Visigothic Spain leading
      > members of the royal clan to seek alliances with the Moors in
      > Africa, who finally cross over to conquer a state that collapses at
      > a blink of an eye.
      >
      > I know Visigothophiles like to present the view that the masses of
      > ethnically homogeneous Visigoths (many of whom covert Arians) fled
      > to the north of Spain to organise a noble and brave resistance,
      > which some 500 years later was crowned by success. Thus, these
      > people try to create a sense of continuity, presenting some 200
      > years of feeble but Christian Visigothic rule as more important than
      > more than 500 years of islamic rule in Spain
      >
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Dirk
      >
      >
      >
    • Rydwlf
      Hails, Ualarauans! Sorry for answering this so late! I ve been terribly busy lately. Thank you for your list of reconstructed names for the Visigothic Kings,
      Message 65 of 65 , Nov 30, 2006
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        Hails, Ualarauans!

        Sorry for answering this so late! I've been terribly busy lately.
        Thank you for your list of reconstructed names for the Visigothic Kings, and your comments about the 'godo' phrases... I'm glad you found them interesting.

        >The points 3 and 4 – don't they
        >suggest a chance that the name of the Goths, like one of the Franks,
        >could have persisted and spread over the whole country? In which
        >case we'd probably have "Gothia" over the Pyrenees now.

        Interesting... taking into account that the Spanish first reached America in the end of Fifteenth Century, this use of 'godo' in Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia was probably shows that the word 'godo' was used with the meanings of "pertaining to an old nobility". At that time, the end of the Reconquista was taking place. What could be the meanings associated with that word, and the Goths in general, at that time? Here it would be interesting checking if Antonio de Nebrija (1441-1522) mentions the word in his dictionaries. I don't have any means to check that now, but I have the chance I'll post here whatever I find.

        Anyway I have found this text, while searching for an e-text of the Nebrija's dictionary http://descargas.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/35727252323249052754491/003278_3.pdf
        It is very interesting... the title is "Royal and Imperial Catalogue", subtitled as "General History of emperors, high priests, kings and lords of Castille, France and other provinces of Europe, from the first of these titles until the year 1532, by Gonzalo Fernández de Oviedo y de Valdés". In several places of the text, (using the "search" function... I haven't read the 1952 pages the text has!) the author remarks the continuity of the current King at his time as descending directly from the Goth kings.

        Some comments in that text show that the generalized idea on that time was that the royal family was the direct descendant of the Goth kings. Of course this idea was also promoted by the governors themselves. The idea of Spain being born as a nation with the consolidation of the Visigothic Kingdom comres originally from the "Historia Gothorum" by Isidore of Seville. The same appears in the "Historia Gothica" by the archbishop Rodrigo Jiménez de Rada. The concept of the Spanish kings as directly descending in lineage from the Visigothic Kings was probably born in the first years of the Reconquista (sorry, no sources here... probably you know them better than me!). It was used for sure after the Reconquista too, so most probably at that time the word "godo" was used to refer to that old almost mythic lineage of a glorious past.

        About the modern use of "hacerse de los godos" or "ser godo", I must recognize I have never listened to anyone using it, although I had the knowledge about the expression before I was interested in Gothic history; so if anyone would have used it, I'd have understood her. I suppose it will become an archaic expression in some years. It may be more frequent in the Canary Islands, though... I'll try to ask that.

        >"Ni rahnjand miþ framaþjaim þans riurjandans sidu godana, ak þans
        >izei swe ik gaainanaidai sind." – Gregaurius Pairilmanna

        ----> Wow! Sái! Cool :) Thank you for that.

        ualarauans <ualarauans@...> wrote:
        Hails, Rydwlf

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf wrote:
        >
        > There are some translations and definitions, anyway, about
        the "godo" word in
        > modern Spanish. According (again) to the DRAE:
        >
        > godo, goda.
        > (From Lat. Gothus).
        > 1. adj. A person of an ancient Germanic people, founder of
        kingdoms in Spain
        > and Italy. Can also be used as a noun.
        > 2. adj. A wealthy and powerful person, originary from the
        iberian families
        > that, confused with the invading goths, formed part of the
        nobility at the time
        > when the Spanish nation was formed. Can also be used as a noun.
        > 3. adj. (Used in the Canary Islands, despective). A Spanish
        from continental
        > Spain. Can also be used as a noun.
        > 4. adj. (Used in Bolivia and Chile, despective). Spanish
        (Spaniard, born in
        > Spain). Can be also used as a noun. Used with the same meaning in
        other places
        > of America.
        > 5. adj. (Used in Venezuela). Pertaining to the conservative
        party in the XIX
        > century, and also, of conservative ideas. Also used as a noun when
        referring to
        > people.
        > 6. adj. (germanic). Gothic (noble, distinguished).

        A very instructive account. Thanks! The points 3 and 4 – don't they
        suggest a chance that the name of the Goths, like one of the Franks,
        could have persisted and spread over the whole country? In which
        case we'd probably have "Gothia" over the Pyrenees now.

        > Expression: "hacerse de los godos". 1. to make ostentation of
        oneself's
        nobility arms.
        > (translation: "make oneself of the Goths".).
        > Expression: "ser godo". 1. To be of old nobility.
        > (translation: "to be Goth".).

        Yes, I knew exactly these two, and I thought there are some more.
        Are they used in current Spanish as mere phraseologisms,
        irrespectively of the Goths in a narrower sense? I mean, could you
        say, for example, of an English lord or even of an Indian maharaja
        that he "es Godo" or "se hace de los Godos"?

        > gótico, gótica.
        > (From Lat. gothicus).
        > 1. adj. Pertaining or related to the Goths.
        > 2. adj. Concerning the artistic forms developed in Europe from
        the XII century
        > to the Renaissance. Can be also used as a noun.
        > 3. adj. Written or printed in gothic letter.
        > 4. adj. Pertaining or related to gothic novelty.
        > 5. adj. Noble, distinguished.
        > 6. adj. (colloquial). Cutesy, prissy (when referring to a
        person).
        > 7. m. Germanic language spoken by the Goths.


        > "It is not people who break ethical standards who are regarded as
        aliens. It is
        > people like me who are isolated." - Grigori Perelman.

        A Gothic version:

        "Ni rahnjand miþ framaþjaim þans riurjandans sidu godana, ak þans
        izei swe ik gaainanaidai sind." – Gregaurius Pairilmanna

        Ualarauans




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        Rydwlf

        "It is not people who break ethical standards who are regarded as aliens. It is people like me who are isolated." - Grigori Perelman.


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