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Re: Was the word "kunig/kunigas/kunigur" a gothic word?

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  • urba_kestutis
    ... take ... (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischesw o ... (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php), ... with ... _kyn_, ... to ...
    Message 1 of 68 , Oct 1, 2006
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi, Michael and Urba,
      >
      > I apologize, it occured to me twice to push by error the "Send"
      > button before the message was ready...
      >
      > What I write bellow is commonly accepted by linguists, and will
      take
      > the examples from two sources:
      > - Koebler
      >
      (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischesw
      o
      > erterbuch/GOT-K.pdf), and
      > - Online Etymology Dictionary
      (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php),
      > both these sources reflecting the commonly accepted viewpoints.
      >
      > The Gothic word _kuni_ "clan, tribe, race, generation" is cognate
      with
      > other Germanic words like Old High German _chunni_, Old Norse
      _kyn_,
      > Old English _cyn_ > Modern English _kin_, the reconstructed Proto-
      > Germanic (PG) form being *kunja-n, which comes from the Proto-Indo-
      > European (PIE) root *g'en- (g' = palatal g) "to produce, to beget,
      to
      > be born", with the variants g'en@, g'ne:-, g'no:- etc. From the
      same
      > PIE root (and with the same Germanic sound shift, g' > k) are also
      > Germanic words derived otherwise, like Old English _ge-cynd_ >
      > English _kind_, _cynn_ "family", _cennan_ "beget, create", Old
      Norse
      > kundr "son", German _Kind_ "child", and the suffixes Gothic -
      kunds,
      > Old High German -kund.
      > Outside Germanic, other Indo-European examples from the same root
      are:
      > - Latin: genus "race, stock, kind", gi-gne-re "to beget", gna-
      sci "to
      > be born", gens (Genitive: gentis) "race, clan", etc.
      > - Old Irish: ro-genar "I was born"
      > - Welsh: geni "to be born"
      > - Greek: genos "race, kind", gonos "birth, offspring, stock", gi-
      gne-
      > sthai "to become, happen"
      > - Lithuanian: gentis "kinsmen"
      > - Sanskrit: janati "begets, bears", janah "race", jatah (from PIE
      > *g'n-to-) "born"
      > - Avestan: zi-zan-enti "they bear"
      > Regarding the derivatin of "king" from "kin", I thing that there
      is
      > no doubt that this is the case, with the remark that the
      derivation
      > happened not in Modern English, but in PG: *kuni-(an) + *-ingaz =
      > *kuningaz.
      > I don't know what connection could be between Gothic _kuni_ and
      > Lithuanian _kunas_ "body". In any case, the Gothic word for sure
      > doesn't come from Lithuanian: it is a common Germanic word coming
      > from PIE *g'en-, and the shift g' > k occured in Germanic, but not
      in
      > Baltic; in Lithuanian g' > "z^" ([zh], French "j") or sometimes >
      g,
      > like in the above example _gentis_, or in _gyvas_ "alive". Thus,
      kuni
      > and kunas are not even cognates at the Indo-European level.
      > Only two alternatives remain:
      > 1. chance resemblance, no connection;
      > 2. Goth. kuni > Lith. kunas, but the meaning shift "clan, tribe"
      > > "body" doesn't look very plausible.
      >
      > Francisc
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "urba_kestutis" <urba_kestutis@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I still think 'king' comes from 'kin' or for the Gothic.
      > > >
      > > > Of course one C-Gmc root can yield two Gothic words, as with
      mawi
      > > and
      > > > magatha, (or two English words, as with churn and quern, shirt
      > > and
      > > > skirt, ship and skiff, etc.) so that kindins and *kunig--
      might
      > > come
      > > > from the same root. IIRC, mawi and magatha reflect changing
      word-
      > > > formation patterns within C-Gmc and Gothic, while shirt and
      > skirt
      > > > reflect internal borrowing among Germanic languages.
      > > >
      > >
      > > In lithuanian (neighbors of goths) there is the word kunas
      > > (pronounciatin is like eng. koonus) with a meaning BODY and
      > latvian
      > > language has the simmilarity. So, Gothic 'kuni' is possibly
      related
      > > to lithuanian kunas, because 'kuni' has the meaning from the
      same
      > > body, too but in prussian there is no koonas but kermenis. How
      to
      > > explain this puzzle?
      > >
      >
      Thanks Francis for very impressive linguistic information - was this
      one Yours or based on some article -I can't find it for example at
      Pokorny database. I've had the idea about 'kunig' origin
      like 'kuni'+'ing' too, but tried to guess on historical bases and
      used the idea about Greek hunter, but now I suppose that Your
      explanation gave more strong base. But lots of questions still are
      unclear. At historicall level it is possible now to discuss such
      idea - 5000-3000 BC with agriculture (ide) spreading 'kuni' reached
      German and Gothic lands, where later it was transformed
      into 'kunig'. Possibly, 200-400 AD during Gothic invasion into
      Europe the new style of ruling appeared together with King idea in
      Baltic, Slavic and the other lands. But why in Rome there appeared
      the rex but not king (rex is more millitar than king - I guess)? On
      the other hand, the Greek cultural linguistic influence was much
      more stronger than Gothic invasion into Europa and Greek hunter
      could give some influencies too. All these questions must be
      considered Nostratic ideas too, supposing 'kn' and 'kng' to be
      backbone, letting wovels to change someway. This gives the great
      PUZZLE about the origin and chronology of dog - canis - hunter,
      animal and man body - 'kunas' (lithuanian), 'kiaune' (lith) -marten;
      tribe 'kuni' - hunting together or/and born from the same body; the
      ruler of the tribe who was the best hunter for some time - Kunig-
      king... So, if we want to obtain clear understanding about
      Gothic 'kunig' origin we must solve this semantic linguistic
      historical problem. Chronological problems are most complicated and
      some changes could reach and appear at glacial or even preglacial
      time!
    • urba_kestutis
      ... take ... (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischesw o ... (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php), ... with ... _kyn_, ... to ...
      Message 68 of 68 , Oct 1, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi, Michael and Urba,
        >
        > I apologize, it occured to me twice to push by error the "Send"
        > button before the message was ready...
        >
        > What I write bellow is commonly accepted by linguists, and will
        take
        > the examples from two sources:
        > - Koebler
        >
        (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischesw
        o
        > erterbuch/GOT-K.pdf), and
        > - Online Etymology Dictionary
        (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php),
        > both these sources reflecting the commonly accepted viewpoints.
        >
        > The Gothic word _kuni_ "clan, tribe, race, generation" is cognate
        with
        > other Germanic words like Old High German _chunni_, Old Norse
        _kyn_,
        > Old English _cyn_ > Modern English _kin_, the reconstructed Proto-
        > Germanic (PG) form being *kunja-n, which comes from the Proto-Indo-
        > European (PIE) root *g'en- (g' = palatal g) "to produce, to beget,
        to
        > be born", with the variants g'en@, g'ne:-, g'no:- etc. From the
        same
        > PIE root (and with the same Germanic sound shift, g' > k) are also
        > Germanic words derived otherwise, like Old English _ge-cynd_ >
        > English _kind_, _cynn_ "family", _cennan_ "beget, create", Old
        Norse
        > kundr "son", German _Kind_ "child", and the suffixes Gothic -
        kunds,
        > Old High German -kund.
        > Outside Germanic, other Indo-European examples from the same root
        are:
        > - Latin: genus "race, stock, kind", gi-gne-re "to beget", gna-
        sci "to
        > be born", gens (Genitive: gentis) "race, clan", etc.
        > - Old Irish: ro-genar "I was born"
        > - Welsh: geni "to be born"
        > - Greek: genos "race, kind", gonos "birth, offspring, stock", gi-
        gne-
        > sthai "to become, happen"
        > - Lithuanian: gentis "kinsmen"
        > - Sanskrit: janati "begets, bears", janah "race", jatah (from PIE
        > *g'n-to-) "born"
        > - Avestan: zi-zan-enti "they bear"
        > Regarding the derivatin of "king" from "kin", I thing that there
        is
        > no doubt that this is the case, with the remark that the
        derivation
        > happened not in Modern English, but in PG: *kuni-(an) + *-ingaz =
        > *kuningaz.
        > I don't know what connection could be between Gothic _kuni_ and
        > Lithuanian _kunas_ "body". In any case, the Gothic word for sure
        > doesn't come from Lithuanian: it is a common Germanic word coming
        > from PIE *g'en-, and the shift g' > k occured in Germanic, but not
        in
        > Baltic; in Lithuanian g' > "z^" ([zh], French "j") or sometimes >
        g,
        > like in the above example _gentis_, or in _gyvas_ "alive". Thus,
        kuni
        > and kunas are not even cognates at the Indo-European level.
        > Only two alternatives remain:
        > 1. chance resemblance, no connection;
        > 2. Goth. kuni > Lith. kunas, but the meaning shift "clan, tribe"
        > > "body" doesn't look very plausible.
        >
        > Francisc
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "urba_kestutis" <urba_kestutis@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I still think 'king' comes from 'kin' or for the Gothic.
        > > >
        > > > Of course one C-Gmc root can yield two Gothic words, as with
        mawi
        > > and
        > > > magatha, (or two English words, as with churn and quern, shirt
        > > and
        > > > skirt, ship and skiff, etc.) so that kindins and *kunig--
        might
        > > come
        > > > from the same root. IIRC, mawi and magatha reflect changing
        word-
        > > > formation patterns within C-Gmc and Gothic, while shirt and
        > skirt
        > > > reflect internal borrowing among Germanic languages.
        > > >
        > >
        > > In lithuanian (neighbors of goths) there is the word kunas
        > > (pronounciatin is like eng. koonus) with a meaning BODY and
        > latvian
        > > language has the simmilarity. So, Gothic 'kuni' is possibly
        related
        > > to lithuanian kunas, because 'kuni' has the meaning from the
        same
        > > body, too but in prussian there is no koonas but kermenis. How
        to
        > > explain this puzzle?
        > >
        >
        Thanks Francis for very impressive linguistic information - was this
        one Yours or based on some article -I can't find it for example at
        Pokorny database. I've had the idea about 'kunig' origin
        like 'kuni'+'ing' too, but tried to guess on historical bases and
        used the idea about Greek hunter, but now I suppose that Your
        explanation gave more strong base. But lots of questions still are
        unclear. At historicall level it is possible now to discuss such
        idea - 5000-3000 BC with agriculture (ide) spreading 'kuni' reached
        German and Gothic lands, where later it was transformed
        into 'kunig'. Possibly, 200-400 AD during Gothic invasion into
        Europe the new style of ruling appeared together with King idea in
        Baltic, Slavic and the other lands. But why in Rome there appeared
        the rex but not king (rex is more millitar than king - I guess)? On
        the other hand, the Greek cultural linguistic influence was much
        more stronger than Gothic invasion into Europa and Greek hunter
        could give some influencies too. All these questions must be
        considered Nostratic ideas too, supposing 'kn' and 'kng' to be
        backbone, letting wovels to change someway. This gives the great
        PUZZLE about the origin and chronology of dog - canis - hunter,
        animal and man body - 'kunas' (lithuanian), 'kiaune' (lith) -marten;
        tribe 'kuni' - hunting together or/and born from the same body; the
        ruler of the tribe who was the best hunter for some time - Kunig-
        king... So, if we want to obtain clear understanding about
        Gothic 'kunig' origin we must solve this semantic linguistic
        historical problem. Chronological problems are most complicated and
        some changes could reach and appear at glacial or even preglacial
        time!
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