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Re: Terwingi and Tyringi/Turingi

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  • faltin2001
    ... the ... rendered ... Th ... Hi, it is probably not clear if Th- denoted þ in Thuringi. However, Teruingi is also rendered as Therouingi with Greek theta,
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 28, 2006
      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
      > Hi Dirk,
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@> wrote:
      > >
      > > the Hermun-duri to Thuringi shift seems to be completely rejected
      > > nowadays. Its main support rested on the perception that the two
      > > people lived in the same region. Yet, as Springer shows in the
      > > earlier cited article that is not really the case. In addition,
      > > temporal gap between Hermunduri and the Thyringi is too big as
      > well.
      > > Finally, as you have mentioned the shift from d to th is strange.
      > >
      > > Grahn-Hoek argues that all that is needed to get from Theruingi to
      > > Theuringi is a metathesis of e and u. She mentioned that there are
      > > other expamples of such switches. Interestingly, a Thuringian gau
      > > (pagus), called the Dyringo/Duringo in low German was also
      > > as Duervingo and Durvinge in medieval documents. The switch from
      > > to D in low German occured around the 10th/11th century. Before
      > this
      > > the name would have been Thuervingo and Thurvinge, which is
      > > basically analogue to Thyrvinge and remarkably close to T(h)
      > > eruingi/Terwingi. Another, 11th century name form of Thuringia is
      > > Dvoringen.
      > I seem to get lost in medieval spellings of the name, so I better
      > ask for help. This /th-/ im Anlaut of the name Thuringi (Middle
      > Age), Thüringer (present day) – did it once reflect the
      > pronunciation [þ] or was it just an "ornamental" way to write [t],
      > as it is now?
      > If it was a [þ], then the change –duri > *þuring- is really
      > unexplainable. But then, *Þuringi would yield *Duringi both in High
      > and Low German. And, what is most important, *Þuringi could not
      > evolve from Teruingi, for whatever medieval spellings were, it was
      > Gothic *Tairwiggos, with a [t], not [þ]. The same is valid for a
      > name derived from Tyras.


      it is probably not clear if Th- denoted þ in Thuringi. However,
      Teruingi is also rendered as Therouingi with Greek theta, just as
      Thueringi. Yet, both names were of course also rendered with T- in
      Anlaut, i.e. Turingi/Tyringi and Teruingi.

      > Now, if we accept it was an Anlaut-[t] in Thuringi, then this form
      > could probably be explained as a High German shift of [d] > [t],
      > the traditional etymology –duri > Thuringi probably holds so far.
      > For which Low German Duringi supply additional evidence. But in
      > case also, it proves impossible to derive it directly from
      > Teruingi/*Tyringi.
      > It's a good time to ask whether Thuringian is above or below the
      > Benrather Linie (I cannot grasp my atlas right now)? If it was
      > hochdeutsch, subject to the Second Sound Shift, it would have made
      > Go. *Tairwiggos rather *Zehringer or the like.

      Thuringian is below the Benrather Linie.

      > But this name seems to neglect phonetic regularities. So the option
      > Thuringi < (somehow) Teruingi or (still more plausible
      > Tyringi shouldn't probably be excluded.
      > > Also, note that Odovacer was called rex Thorcilingorum. It was
      > > usually assumed that the Thorcilingi were either an otherwise
      > > unknown tribe or the name of the dynasty. Only the Greek Malchos
      > > fragment solves the riddle. This source states that the father of
      > > Onulfus, the brother of Odovacer was a Thuringian on his father's
      > > side and a Scirian on his mothers side. Hence, Thorcilingorum
      > > probably have to be emendated to Thoringorum. This emendation was
      > > recently supported by Castritius and Pohl. The example shows that
      > > strange scribal errors did occur, especially with the name of the
      > > Thuringians. In fact, Grahn-Hoek shows several examples were
      > authors
      > > confused the names Teruingi and Teuringi.
      > I thought once that Torcilingi could be a vestige of some (proto-)
      > Turkic presence in Europe in the Migration period (through the
      > Huns?). Go. *Taurkiliggos would mean "descendants of *Taurkeis,
      > Turks" (cf. ON Tyrkir).

      The common thinking now seems to be that rex Thorcilingorum should be
      corrected to rex Thoringorum. The fact that Odovaker's father was a
      Thuringian would make it more plausible that Odovaker was called king
      of the Thuringians rather than king of the Turks. Also, such Turks
      are not mentioned by any other source.



      > > Another interesting line of argument pertains to the rex Gothorum
      > > Radagaisus. Radagaisus attacked Italy in 406 with a large army,
      > > which was composed of different groups and led by two other
      > > princes. Zosimus stated that this army had come from the region
      > > between Danube and Rhine. The land between Danube and Rhine is
      > > exactly how the later Thuringian kingdom is described. Grahn-Hoek
      > > suggests that Radagaisus was a successor of Athanaric as leader of
      > > the remnants of the Athanaric-Terwingi who had chosen not to join
      > > Fritigern and Alaviv on Roman territory. A 6th century Thuringian-
      > > Warnian prince had the name Radagais/Radagis, while two princesses
      > > were called Rada-gunde, and one prince had the name Rada-ulf and
      > one
      > > Arta-gais. In other words, the name components of Radagaisus were
      > > quite prevalent in the Thuringian royal family which could point
      > > a family link. Radagaisus is often believed to be a Ostrogoths,
      > > because the sources state that he was a pagan, while the Visigoths
      > > were Christians. Yet, he is not mentioned in the Ostrogothic Amal
      > > geneology and as a leader of the anti-Roman and anti-Christian
      > > Athanaric Goths he would have been a pagan.
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > >
      > > Dirk
      > Ualarauans
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