Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Terwingi and Tyringi/Turingi

Expand Messages
  • faltin2001
    ... the ... rendered ... Th ... Hi, it is probably not clear if Th- denoted þ in Thuringi. However, Teruingi is also rendered as Therouingi with Greek theta,
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 28, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Dirk,
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@> wrote:
      > >
      > > the Hermun-duri to Thuringi shift seems to be completely rejected
      > > nowadays. Its main support rested on the perception that the two
      > > people lived in the same region. Yet, as Springer shows in the
      > > earlier cited article that is not really the case. In addition,
      the
      > > temporal gap between Hermunduri and the Thyringi is too big as
      > well.
      > > Finally, as you have mentioned the shift from d to th is strange.
      > >
      > > Grahn-Hoek argues that all that is needed to get from Theruingi to
      > > Theuringi is a metathesis of e and u. She mentioned that there are
      > > other expamples of such switches. Interestingly, a Thuringian gau
      > > (pagus), called the Dyringo/Duringo in low German was also
      rendered
      > > as Duervingo and Durvinge in medieval documents. The switch from
      Th
      > > to D in low German occured around the 10th/11th century. Before
      > this
      > > the name would have been Thuervingo and Thurvinge, which is
      > > basically analogue to Thyrvinge and remarkably close to T(h)
      > > eruingi/Terwingi. Another, 11th century name form of Thuringia is
      > > Dvoringen.
      >
      > I seem to get lost in medieval spellings of the name, so I better
      > ask for help. This /th-/ im Anlaut of the name Thuringi (Middle
      > Age), Thüringer (present day) – did it once reflect the
      > pronunciation [þ] or was it just an "ornamental" way to write [t],
      > as it is now?
      >
      > If it was a [þ], then the change –duri > *þuring- is really
      > unexplainable. But then, *Þuringi would yield *Duringi both in High
      > and Low German. And, what is most important, *Þuringi could not
      > evolve from Teruingi, for whatever medieval spellings were, it was
      > Gothic *Tairwiggos, with a [t], not [þ]. The same is valid for a
      > name derived from Tyras.



      Hi,

      it is probably not clear if Th- denoted þ in Thuringi. However,
      Teruingi is also rendered as Therouingi with Greek theta, just as
      Thueringi. Yet, both names were of course also rendered with T- in
      Anlaut, i.e. Turingi/Tyringi and Teruingi.





      >
      > Now, if we accept it was an Anlaut-[t] in Thuringi, then this form
      > could probably be explained as a High German shift of [d] > [t],
      and
      > the traditional etymology –duri > Thuringi probably holds so far.
      > For which Low German Duringi supply additional evidence. But in
      this
      > case also, it proves impossible to derive it directly from
      > Teruingi/*Tyringi.
      >
      > It's a good time to ask whether Thuringian is above or below the
      > Benrather Linie (I cannot grasp my atlas right now)? If it was
      > hochdeutsch, subject to the Second Sound Shift, it would have made
      > Go. *Tairwiggos rather *Zehringer or the like.




      Thuringian is below the Benrather Linie.



      >
      > But this name seems to neglect phonetic regularities. So the option
      > Thuringi < (somehow) Teruingi or (still more plausible
      phonetically)
      > Tyringi shouldn't probably be excluded.
      >
      > > Also, note that Odovacer was called rex Thorcilingorum. It was
      > > usually assumed that the Thorcilingi were either an otherwise
      > > unknown tribe or the name of the dynasty. Only the Greek Malchos
      > > fragment solves the riddle. This source states that the father of
      > > Onulfus, the brother of Odovacer was a Thuringian on his father's
      > > side and a Scirian on his mothers side. Hence, Thorcilingorum
      would
      > > probably have to be emendated to Thoringorum. This emendation was
      > > recently supported by Castritius and Pohl. The example shows that
      > > strange scribal errors did occur, especially with the name of the
      > > Thuringians. In fact, Grahn-Hoek shows several examples were
      > authors
      > > confused the names Teruingi and Teuringi.
      >
      > I thought once that Torcilingi could be a vestige of some (proto-)
      > Turkic presence in Europe in the Migration period (through the
      > Huns?). Go. *Taurkiliggos would mean "descendants of *Taurkeis,
      > Turks" (cf. ON Tyrkir).


      The common thinking now seems to be that rex Thorcilingorum should be
      corrected to rex Thoringorum. The fact that Odovaker's father was a
      Thuringian would make it more plausible that Odovaker was called king
      of the Thuringians rather than king of the Turks. Also, such Turks
      are not mentioned by any other source.

      Cheers,

      Dirk







      >
      > > Another interesting line of argument pertains to the rex Gothorum
      > > Radagaisus. Radagaisus attacked Italy in 406 with a large army,
      > > which was composed of different groups and led by two other
      unnamed
      > > princes. Zosimus stated that this army had come from the region
      > > between Danube and Rhine. The land between Danube and Rhine is
      > > exactly how the later Thuringian kingdom is described. Grahn-Hoek
      > > suggests that Radagaisus was a successor of Athanaric as leader of
      > > the remnants of the Athanaric-Terwingi who had chosen not to join
      > > Fritigern and Alaviv on Roman territory. A 6th century Thuringian-
      > > Warnian prince had the name Radagais/Radagis, while two princesses
      > > were called Rada-gunde, and one prince had the name Rada-ulf and
      > one
      > > Arta-gais. In other words, the name components of Radagaisus were
      > > quite prevalent in the Thuringian royal family which could point
      to
      > > a family link. Radagaisus is often believed to be a Ostrogoths,
      > > because the sources state that he was a pagan, while the Visigoths
      > > were Christians. Yet, he is not mentioned in the Ostrogothic Amal
      > > geneology and as a leader of the anti-Roman and anti-Christian
      > > Athanaric Goths he would have been a pagan.
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > >
      > > Dirk
      >
      > Ualarauans
      >
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.