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Re: [gothic-l] Was the word "kunig/kunigas/kunigur" a gothic word?

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  • Michal Cigan
    Hi, only little correction, You wrote: ...The word kunego = prinz in old slavonic... I do not know, what s Your source, but as far as I know, the old slavic
    Message 1 of 68 , Sep 17, 2006
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      Hi,
      only little correction,

      You wrote:
      ...The word "kunego" = prinz in old slavonic...

      I do not know, what's Your source, but as far as I know, the old slavic word for "prince", or "duke" was k'nenz', and it's probably a borrowing from some germanic language - I heard about a theory, that it's a loanword from old high german

      Michal


      michelsauvant <michelsauvant@...> wrote: Hello

      I'm a French and specialist of toponomy for Northern Catalonia
      (Gothaland??) a region where Visigoths lived between 414 and the
      750's (Septimania).

      I am writing to you in order to verify a personal assumption about
      the name "Canigo" of one of the summit in this country.

      This name could have been given by Goths as "Kunighauh" .
      But what could be the exact meaning ?

      I read all the messages about the words for "king" in gothic
      language, and I know that there is no evidence that Goths borrowed a
      word like "kunig" or something else similar, with the meaning
      of "king".
      But we know that such word existed, around the Ost-Baltic sea,
      spoken by Visigoth's ancestors. At that time the meaning could
      be "noble" and Visigoths could have borrowed the word with the same
      meaning, or the meaning of "prinz", despite their usage of the
      words "reiks" or " thiodans" for their proper kings.
      The word "kunego" = prinz in old slavonic is compatible with my
      assumption.

      I precise that this remarkable mountain Canigo -- we can see it from
      the sea side the main summit (around 2800m) like the Fujijama
      inJapan-- was not mentioned by antics authors travelling there.
      Despite 5 centuries with the grecian city of Emporion near it, and 5
      centuries of government by Romans!
      So its name seems to be done between 400 (start of the lack of
      authors writing about something with no relation with the Bible) and
      875 (first occurrence of the name "Canigo" in a document).
      In consequence this name is necessarily from Visigoths or Franks.
      But I can explain why this name was not created by Franks coming
      around 750.
      And I can tell you that a name meaning "Noble Mount " is
      particularly adapted to its magnificence. The highness of the Canigo
      could have inspired this adjective to the Goths.

      If you tell me that this assumption is false, I have an other
      assumption:
      The proto-germanic ancestor of the OHG word "kunig"or "kunning"
      (and all the similar words meaning "king" in various countries)
      could have been a concatenation between "kuni"= "family or people"
      and "gur" = "en haut". I think at the corresponding word "kunigur"
      in the isolated Iceland.
      In that case the etymological meaning of an hypothetical gothic
      word "kunig" (or "kunigo" or "kunigas") could be "somebody being
      over the members of his family, or tribu or clan"… as a king is.
      In this case it could have been used for a personified summit over
      the other summits in the same set of mountains, to tell everybody
      that is the highest mountain.
      NB. An other origine for "kuning/kunigas/kunigur" could
      be "Khan+i+goh" = higher lord.
      considering that "khan" was the word for "lord" somewhere in central
      Asia.

      If these two assumptions are false, I must admit that some indo-
      european around 1500-800BC gave the name "khanigo" as a
      concatenation of "Khan + i +go" = higher summit (hier "Khan"
      means "summit" (preindoeuropean meaning ), even if no antic author
      mentioned this remarkable mountain.

      What do you thing of this ?

      Best regards

      Michel Sauvant
      michelsauvant@...






      ---------------------------------
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    • urba_kestutis
      ... take ... (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischesw o ... (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php), ... with ... _kyn_, ... to ...
      Message 68 of 68 , Oct 1, 2006
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi, Michael and Urba,
        >
        > I apologize, it occured to me twice to push by error the "Send"
        > button before the message was ready...
        >
        > What I write bellow is commonly accepted by linguists, and will
        take
        > the examples from two sources:
        > - Koebler
        >
        (http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/gotischesw
        o
        > erterbuch/GOT-K.pdf), and
        > - Online Etymology Dictionary
        (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php),
        > both these sources reflecting the commonly accepted viewpoints.
        >
        > The Gothic word _kuni_ "clan, tribe, race, generation" is cognate
        with
        > other Germanic words like Old High German _chunni_, Old Norse
        _kyn_,
        > Old English _cyn_ > Modern English _kin_, the reconstructed Proto-
        > Germanic (PG) form being *kunja-n, which comes from the Proto-Indo-
        > European (PIE) root *g'en- (g' = palatal g) "to produce, to beget,
        to
        > be born", with the variants g'en@, g'ne:-, g'no:- etc. From the
        same
        > PIE root (and with the same Germanic sound shift, g' > k) are also
        > Germanic words derived otherwise, like Old English _ge-cynd_ >
        > English _kind_, _cynn_ "family", _cennan_ "beget, create", Old
        Norse
        > kundr "son", German _Kind_ "child", and the suffixes Gothic -
        kunds,
        > Old High German -kund.
        > Outside Germanic, other Indo-European examples from the same root
        are:
        > - Latin: genus "race, stock, kind", gi-gne-re "to beget", gna-
        sci "to
        > be born", gens (Genitive: gentis) "race, clan", etc.
        > - Old Irish: ro-genar "I was born"
        > - Welsh: geni "to be born"
        > - Greek: genos "race, kind", gonos "birth, offspring, stock", gi-
        gne-
        > sthai "to become, happen"
        > - Lithuanian: gentis "kinsmen"
        > - Sanskrit: janati "begets, bears", janah "race", jatah (from PIE
        > *g'n-to-) "born"
        > - Avestan: zi-zan-enti "they bear"
        > Regarding the derivatin of "king" from "kin", I thing that there
        is
        > no doubt that this is the case, with the remark that the
        derivation
        > happened not in Modern English, but in PG: *kuni-(an) + *-ingaz =
        > *kuningaz.
        > I don't know what connection could be between Gothic _kuni_ and
        > Lithuanian _kunas_ "body". In any case, the Gothic word for sure
        > doesn't come from Lithuanian: it is a common Germanic word coming
        > from PIE *g'en-, and the shift g' > k occured in Germanic, but not
        in
        > Baltic; in Lithuanian g' > "z^" ([zh], French "j") or sometimes >
        g,
        > like in the above example _gentis_, or in _gyvas_ "alive". Thus,
        kuni
        > and kunas are not even cognates at the Indo-European level.
        > Only two alternatives remain:
        > 1. chance resemblance, no connection;
        > 2. Goth. kuni > Lith. kunas, but the meaning shift "clan, tribe"
        > > "body" doesn't look very plausible.
        >
        > Francisc
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "urba_kestutis" <urba_kestutis@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I still think 'king' comes from 'kin' or for the Gothic.
        > > >
        > > > Of course one C-Gmc root can yield two Gothic words, as with
        mawi
        > > and
        > > > magatha, (or two English words, as with churn and quern, shirt
        > > and
        > > > skirt, ship and skiff, etc.) so that kindins and *kunig--
        might
        > > come
        > > > from the same root. IIRC, mawi and magatha reflect changing
        word-
        > > > formation patterns within C-Gmc and Gothic, while shirt and
        > skirt
        > > > reflect internal borrowing among Germanic languages.
        > > >
        > >
        > > In lithuanian (neighbors of goths) there is the word kunas
        > > (pronounciatin is like eng. koonus) with a meaning BODY and
        > latvian
        > > language has the simmilarity. So, Gothic 'kuni' is possibly
        related
        > > to lithuanian kunas, because 'kuni' has the meaning from the
        same
        > > body, too but in prussian there is no koonas but kermenis. How
        to
        > > explain this puzzle?
        > >
        >
        Thanks Francis for very impressive linguistic information - was this
        one Yours or based on some article -I can't find it for example at
        Pokorny database. I've had the idea about 'kunig' origin
        like 'kuni'+'ing' too, but tried to guess on historical bases and
        used the idea about Greek hunter, but now I suppose that Your
        explanation gave more strong base. But lots of questions still are
        unclear. At historicall level it is possible now to discuss such
        idea - 5000-3000 BC with agriculture (ide) spreading 'kuni' reached
        German and Gothic lands, where later it was transformed
        into 'kunig'. Possibly, 200-400 AD during Gothic invasion into
        Europe the new style of ruling appeared together with King idea in
        Baltic, Slavic and the other lands. But why in Rome there appeared
        the rex but not king (rex is more millitar than king - I guess)? On
        the other hand, the Greek cultural linguistic influence was much
        more stronger than Gothic invasion into Europa and Greek hunter
        could give some influencies too. All these questions must be
        considered Nostratic ideas too, supposing 'kn' and 'kng' to be
        backbone, letting wovels to change someway. This gives the great
        PUZZLE about the origin and chronology of dog - canis - hunter,
        animal and man body - 'kunas' (lithuanian), 'kiaune' (lith) -marten;
        tribe 'kuni' - hunting together or/and born from the same body; the
        ruler of the tribe who was the best hunter for some time - Kunig-
        king... So, if we want to obtain clear understanding about
        Gothic 'kunig' origin we must solve this semantic linguistic
        historical problem. Chronological problems are most complicated and
        some changes could reach and appear at glacial or even preglacial
        time!
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