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Re: [gothic-l] "Victovaloke" article critical of linguistics

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  • David Kiltz
    ... Hails Konrad, Yes, I think his drift is to dismiss certain ideas about the history of Romania which result from linguistic research. Clearly his beef is
    Message 1 of 44 , Aug 6, 2006
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      On 06.08.2006, at 14:18, akoddsson wrote:

      > There are some telling phrases, like the
      > one about IE being of 'no practical value'.

      Hails Konrad,

      Yes, I think his drift is to dismiss certain ideas about the history
      of Romania which result from linguistic research. Clearly his beef is
      with the historical comparative method which, however, he never
      really mentions, far less discusses. It is understandable that a
      layman might be overwhelmed by the often bitter in-fighting over
      certain details and thereby would miss the basic concepts. I've read
      other articles by him. For instance, he seems to have difficulties to
      grasp why _iubesc_ 'to love' is considered a loan from Slavic. He
      counters the claim by saying it's recorded in an 11/12. century poem.
      The latter, of course, has nothing to do with it, it's simply the
      phonetic structure that leads to the assumption. However, I suppose
      one must seriously question the sanity of a person that claims
      'linguistics' hasn't produced anything positive in the last 200
      years. He apparently tries to dismiss Indo-European linguistics in
      particular. Nevertheless progress there has, of course, been enormous.
      I wonder how much he really knows about modern phonetics, grammatical
      theory of various types, pragmatics etc.
      What is actually disconcerting is, that the unsuspecting reader might
      believe some of those ravings.
      As for the practical value of Indo-European linguistics - I always
      found that to be enormous. It helped me learn languages so much
      faster and more efficiently.

      I quite agree with you on evolutionary theory and the progress of
      science/scholarship.
      Gabriel Gheorghe is an engineer by training, it would appear. Of
      course, that is a rather different trade.
      At any rate, on a nicer note, I do love roses too.

      Best,

      David
    • Francisc Czobor
      I begin to become bored by this discussion, that seems to be off- topic. ... I have read through that famous Erdély Története (History of Transylvania)
      Message 44 of 44 , Aug 9, 2006
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        I begin to become bored by this discussion, that seems to be off-
        topic.

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "dciurchea" <dciurchea@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Francisc,
        >
        > I sincerely regret that you continue to excuse or arrange the
        > mistifications in "Erdely Tortenete".
        >

        I have read through that famous "Erdély Története" (History of
        Transylvania) and I don't agree with all that they wrote there, but
        this is not the subject here (and is has nothing to do with the
        Gothic list). But the Victofali existed independent of the "Erdély
        Története".

        > The links you indicated talk about some victofali, but as allies to
        > Decebalus, not as the east german tribe who settled in the Spomes
        > valley in 168 AD:"Daciam Decibalo victo subegit, provincia trans
        > Danubium facta in his agris, quos nunc Taifali, Victoali et
        Tervingi
        > habent."
        >

        This is from Eutropius (Breviarium Historiae Romanae VIII/2).
        But your interpretation denote either mistification or an attempt to
        translate a Latin text without knowing Latin. The correct translation
        of this phrase is:
        "he subdued Dacia by the overthrow of Decebalus, and formed a
        province beyond the Danube, in that territory which the Thaiphali,
        Victoali, and Theruingi now occupy"
        (http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/eutropius/trans8.html)
        "now" (nunc) means in Eutropius' time, who lived in the 4th century.
        (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius)
        Thus your interpretation that the Victofali were allies of Decebalus
        (who died in 106) is the real mistification.

        > Therefore only my reading and interpretation remain correct.
        >
        > The trick with valoke (if correct) in "Erdely Tortenete" should be
        > demonstrated with the primary data.
        >

        There is no trick there, it is just a grammatical form. I thought I
        explained it clearly, but you didn't understand anything. Let me
        explain it other way: "Victovaloké" is the genitive plural of
        Victoval, exactly like it would be in Romanian "Victovalilor". Thus
        to extract from "Victovaloké" a tribe name "Valoke" is exactly the
        same error as extracting a tribe name "Valilor" from "Victovalilor".
        Thus any interpretation like "Victo Valoke = Romans vainquished the
        Waloks" is totally aberrant.

        > - Where is the primary data ?(photo ?)
        > - What connection do you see between an antique inscription and the
        > current Hungarian ? How do you guess it is an east german tribe ?
        > Did they have Trabi or Wartburg PKW's :)?
        >

        It is not MY interpretation that it is an east Germanic tribe
        (Germanic, not German! In Hungarian, "germán" means "Germanic"; the
        Hungarian word for "German" is "német"!! Or maybe you don't
        undersatnd the difference between "Germanic" and "German", making any
        further discussion useless). The Germanic character of the Victoali
        is asserted by first-line historians, already by Edward Gibbon (The
        History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. 1, 1776):
        "At a later stage, when the Sarmatians made common cause with the
        Germans, it was called the Bellum Germanicum Sarmaticum. The Romans
        took the field in 167, and hostilities lasted, with a short interval
        of peace, till the accession of Commodus, 180. The following German
        peoples took part in it: — Marcomanni, Quadi, Narisci, Victovali,
        Hermunduri, Vandals, Buri" (footnote no. 83)
        (http://oll.libertyfund.org/Home3/HTML.php?recordID=0214.01)
        Everywhere where I read about the Victoali, they are presented as a
        Germanic (sometimes more precisely: Eastern-Germanic) people, being
        regarded by some as a branch of the Vandals.
        Information on the Internet about the Germanic character of the
        Victoali:
        http://www.obib.de/Schriften/AlteSchriften/alte_schriften.php?
        Germanen/Ostgermanen.html~Text
        (The "Viktovalen" are enumerated among the Eastern Germanic, as a
        branch of the Vandals)
        http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_germanischen_St%C3%A4mme
        (The "Viktofalen" enumerated among Western Germanic tribes)
        http://encyclopedie-
        de.snyke.com/articles/liste_der_germanischen_stamme.html
        (idem)


        > I take short vacation now. Have more inspiration by my return,
        > Sincerely,
        > D. Ciurchea
        >
        > P.S. Theodosia and Theodosius are frequent names in the
        > thracian/greek world, including today. King Theodosie was educated
        > in Byzantium and beared the eastern name (and traditional thracian
        > clothes), until 410 I believe, when he was advised to adapt to the
        > West roman fashion, mainly because of his pants.
        >

        Who is this "King Theodosie"? Do you mean Theodoric the Great (454-
        526), the King of the Ostrogoths? But this is a different person than
        your "King Theodosie" who beared pants until 410 (i.e 44 years before
        the birth of Theodoric the Great)

        > There are other examples also.
        >

        What examples??

        Francisc
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