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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Name of the Goths

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  • John Larsson
    ... From: Ingemar Nordgren To: Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Name of the
    Message 1 of 44 , Jul 31, 2006
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@...>
      To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 11:03 PM
      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Name of the Goths



      Hi Dirk,

      Could you demonstrate a big flowing stream that explains the island
      name of Gutland/Gotland or Eastern Gautland?

      Best
      Ingemar


      > > > Thus, the place name Gutinge (Göttingen) refers to ' the place of
      > > the people at the stream of water'. In fact, some sources even refer
      > > to a Saxon 'sub-tribe' as the Gudinge from the same area. The name
      > of
      > > the Goths has clearly the same linguistic roots and it may have had
      > > the same development, only that usually the more sophisticated
      > > interpretation of 'giessen', i.e. to pour or flow is employed to
      > > arrive at the meaning of 'the once who were created by the flow of
      > > semen from a god'.

      Good question, Ingemar,

      No, the origin of must be older and point at something more siginificant
      than living along flowing water. For a long time I kept looking for some
      special behaviour, e. g. methods to move along rivers or methods to utilize
      seasonal floodings, but with no convincing conclusions. It seems like
      "giessen/gyde/gjuta" can be traced back to words meaning "juice" or
      "offering/sacrifice". To all lurking ladies: Keep on reading, I'll not try
      to explain the connection! ;-) Really, because I doubt such a connection!

      Let me instead introduce you, honourable readers, to a new (at least, I
      think so!) possible meaning of the origin of the Goths. There might still be
      doubt about details, but it seems like the Black Sea area once was flooded
      with an enormous "flowing stream", when the Bosphorous Strait was
      established. This should have happend ca 7500 years ago. The water fall from
      the Mediterranian was 40-50 times the Niagara Falls for several months and
      an area of about 150000 sqr km was flooded, thus 5 times the area of the
      Netherlands. This area was lowland area, with fine agricultural potential,
      so it must have had a more dense population than surrounding areas. All
      these people, probably of many ethnic origins, fled the Black Sea area and
      by the peoples, which noticed (and suffered from!) their migration they were
      called "those who flee the Great Water Fall". Voila!

      Regards
      John
    • Francisc Czobor
      I begin to become bored by this discussion, that seems to be off- topic. ... I have read through that famous Erdély Története (History of Transylvania)
      Message 44 of 44 , Aug 9, 2006
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        I begin to become bored by this discussion, that seems to be off-
        topic.

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "dciurchea" <dciurchea@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Francisc,
        >
        > I sincerely regret that you continue to excuse or arrange the
        > mistifications in "Erdely Tortenete".
        >

        I have read through that famous "Erdély Története" (History of
        Transylvania) and I don't agree with all that they wrote there, but
        this is not the subject here (and is has nothing to do with the
        Gothic list). But the Victofali existed independent of the "Erdély
        Története".

        > The links you indicated talk about some victofali, but as allies to
        > Decebalus, not as the east german tribe who settled in the Spomes
        > valley in 168 AD:"Daciam Decibalo victo subegit, provincia trans
        > Danubium facta in his agris, quos nunc Taifali, Victoali et
        Tervingi
        > habent."
        >

        This is from Eutropius (Breviarium Historiae Romanae VIII/2).
        But your interpretation denote either mistification or an attempt to
        translate a Latin text without knowing Latin. The correct translation
        of this phrase is:
        "he subdued Dacia by the overthrow of Decebalus, and formed a
        province beyond the Danube, in that territory which the Thaiphali,
        Victoali, and Theruingi now occupy"
        (http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/eutropius/trans8.html)
        "now" (nunc) means in Eutropius' time, who lived in the 4th century.
        (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius)
        Thus your interpretation that the Victofali were allies of Decebalus
        (who died in 106) is the real mistification.

        > Therefore only my reading and interpretation remain correct.
        >
        > The trick with valoke (if correct) in "Erdely Tortenete" should be
        > demonstrated with the primary data.
        >

        There is no trick there, it is just a grammatical form. I thought I
        explained it clearly, but you didn't understand anything. Let me
        explain it other way: "Victovaloké" is the genitive plural of
        Victoval, exactly like it would be in Romanian "Victovalilor". Thus
        to extract from "Victovaloké" a tribe name "Valoke" is exactly the
        same error as extracting a tribe name "Valilor" from "Victovalilor".
        Thus any interpretation like "Victo Valoke = Romans vainquished the
        Waloks" is totally aberrant.

        > - Where is the primary data ?(photo ?)
        > - What connection do you see between an antique inscription and the
        > current Hungarian ? How do you guess it is an east german tribe ?
        > Did they have Trabi or Wartburg PKW's :)?
        >

        It is not MY interpretation that it is an east Germanic tribe
        (Germanic, not German! In Hungarian, "germán" means "Germanic"; the
        Hungarian word for "German" is "német"!! Or maybe you don't
        undersatnd the difference between "Germanic" and "German", making any
        further discussion useless). The Germanic character of the Victoali
        is asserted by first-line historians, already by Edward Gibbon (The
        History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. 1, 1776):
        "At a later stage, when the Sarmatians made common cause with the
        Germans, it was called the Bellum Germanicum Sarmaticum. The Romans
        took the field in 167, and hostilities lasted, with a short interval
        of peace, till the accession of Commodus, 180. The following German
        peoples took part in it: — Marcomanni, Quadi, Narisci, Victovali,
        Hermunduri, Vandals, Buri" (footnote no. 83)
        (http://oll.libertyfund.org/Home3/HTML.php?recordID=0214.01)
        Everywhere where I read about the Victoali, they are presented as a
        Germanic (sometimes more precisely: Eastern-Germanic) people, being
        regarded by some as a branch of the Vandals.
        Information on the Internet about the Germanic character of the
        Victoali:
        http://www.obib.de/Schriften/AlteSchriften/alte_schriften.php?
        Germanen/Ostgermanen.html~Text
        (The "Viktovalen" are enumerated among the Eastern Germanic, as a
        branch of the Vandals)
        http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_germanischen_St%C3%A4mme
        (The "Viktofalen" enumerated among Western Germanic tribes)
        http://encyclopedie-
        de.snyke.com/articles/liste_der_germanischen_stamme.html
        (idem)


        > I take short vacation now. Have more inspiration by my return,
        > Sincerely,
        > D. Ciurchea
        >
        > P.S. Theodosia and Theodosius are frequent names in the
        > thracian/greek world, including today. King Theodosie was educated
        > in Byzantium and beared the eastern name (and traditional thracian
        > clothes), until 410 I believe, when he was advised to adapt to the
        > West roman fashion, mainly because of his pants.
        >

        Who is this "King Theodosie"? Do you mean Theodoric the Great (454-
        526), the King of the Ostrogoths? But this is a different person than
        your "King Theodosie" who beared pants until 410 (i.e 44 years before
        the birth of Theodoric the Great)

        > There are other examples also.
        >

        What examples??

        Francisc
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