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Re: [gothic-l] Etymologie gothique pour "strava" ?

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  • Budelberger, Richard
    10 messidor an CCXIV (le 28 juin 2006 d. c.-d. c. g.), 16h50. ... De : thiudans À : Envoyé : mardi 27 juin
    Message 1 of 70 , Jun 28, 2006
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      10 messidor an CCXIV (le 28 juin 2006 d. c.-d. c. g.), 16h50.

      ----- Message d'origine -----
      De : thiudans <thiudans@...>
      À : <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Envoyé : mardi 27 juin 2006 23:44
      Objet : [gothic-l] Re: Etymologie gothique pour "strava" ?

      > hails & thanks Richard:

      Merci, mon message ayant passé le mur de la censure –
      « X-eGroups-Approved-By: thiudans <thiudans@...>
      via web; 27 Jun 2006 20:54:53 -0000 » ; On abat les Murs de
      Berlin, mais on édifie des Murs de censure autour des groupes
      « Yahoo! » –, je vais apporter quelques précisions.

      > Here is a sort of english translation.

      C'est trop d'honneur. J'avais déjà connu la gloire d'être traduit
      dans la langue de Donovan et Mr Bean dans le « Forum Maigret » ;
      elle est maintenant universelle !

      > Please excuse also my mediocrity (and errors, which correct!).

      Mais non, mais non : on sait que la langue de Mr Bean n'est elle-même
      qu'une immense faute de français…

      > -Matthew

      Je vais répondre dans ce message à Matthew Carver et Владимир Егоров.

      J'ai envoyé mon message à « Gothic-L » malgré le lien ténu qu'il possède avec
      la langue gothique, mais en l'élaguant de tout ce qui est étranger au gothique. Après
      tout, les références au gothique dans les ouvrages ne sont pas si nombreuses –
      surtout non chrétiennes – qu'on puisse négliger un paragraphe dans un essai sur
      la langue protobulgare.

      Anna Parzymies est une spécialiste des langues altaïques – elle a même écrit,
      pour ceux que ça intéresse…, un manuel de la langue tchouvache !… –, et connaît
      apparemment le français ; elle persiste pourtant à écrire en polonais, dont cet essai,
      358e de la série « Dissertationes Universitatis Varsoviensis » / « Rozprawy Uniwersytatu
      warszawskiego ».

      J'ai donné la structure globale de son étude du terme /strava/ – dans une mise en page
      soignée en texte « brut », mais dénaturée par le passage en « html » –, limitant les citations
      à ce qui est du ressort de « Gothic-L ». Les étymologies proposées pour /strava/ appartiennent
      au domaine germanique (une étymologie), slave (2), turc (1), voire thraco-dace (étymologie
      proposée, mais non documentée…) ; j'y ai ajouté une suggestion personnelle. Anna Parzymies
      rejette toutes ces étymologies, en proposant la sienne : hunnico-protobulgare.

      Je précise que je n'ai absolument aucune opinion sur le sujet, ne soutenant ni défendant ni
      condamnant aucune des propositions : j'expose !

      Anna Parzymies évoque Jordanès, mais ne cite même pas le passage des /Getica/ ;
      on trouve sur la Toile le texte latin, le texte anglais, je crois aussi, mais je ne le retrouve
      plus, et une traduction russe.

      ----

      > Anna Parzymies examines in her work _The Proto-Bulgarian Language "
      > Contribution to its reconstruction on the basis comparison with
      > Turko-Slavic_ the possible etymologies of the word /strava/ cited in
      > their latin sources.

      > Please excuse the mediocrity of the French translation: it is mine.
      > [ “ English “ “ " Matthew]

      > *II. Proto-Bulgarian in the Hunnic Period*
      > *1. Sociolinguistic Look at Slavo-Hunnic contact*
      > *2. Loans from the Hunnic language.*

      > /Strava/

      > A Hunnic appelative mentioned in the opening of Jordanes Getica* is
      > also a Slavic word. In Polish / strawa/ means nourishment”,
      > “setting?” ( )

      « mets » = « dish ».

      > About this word there is considerable writing given by slavicists and
      > germanicists, as well as Turkic linguists. Slavicists and
      > germanicists, proposing in response a Slavic and gothic etymology,
      > attempt to demonstrate that this word was borrowed from Huns by the
      > Slavs or Goths.

      Non, non… « przez Hunów od Słowian lub od Gotów » : « by Huns
      from the Slavs or Goths »

      > Cultural constraints
      >
      > Linguistic Constraints of Proposed Etymologies
      >
      > Let us examine how the question is presented in the linguistic
      > viewpoint. To this end, I give first of all the proposed etymologies
      > and the reservations that they inspire.
      >
      > Gothic Etymology. Gothic, unlike the other Germanic languages,

      Non, non… « w gockim, jak i w innych językach germańskich » :
      « Gothic, like the other Germanic languages »

      > does not offer an attestation of the word /strava/. On must go to Old
      > Icelandic /strá/, Old German /strô/, Anglo-Saxon /streaw/, “hay,
      > straw”, derived from the gothic verb /straujan/, “spread out, strew”,
      > reconstructs in meaning (framework, scaffolding, pyre) “funeral pyre
      > in a bed-shape”.
      >
      > Without any doubt, this reconstruction is tied to a funeral ceremony,
      > cremation, but of another type than that practiced by the Huns, who
      > interred their dead. The Germanizing reconstruction has little in
      > common with the /strava/ of Jordanes, who glosses it as “comessatio,
      > -onis” (eating together) [I wonder if this could be parsed com-essatio
      > “thorough consumption”-matthew], once again, let alone with the
      > meaning /nourishment/, of this Slavic word that, in the perspective of
      > a Gothic etymology, must also be a Germanic loan.
      >
      > Slavic Etymologies

      Владимир Егоров :

      > No doubt that due to the Jordanes' explanation his strava upon a barrow
      > (not around a pyre nor near a dead body) is a Slavic word meaning just
      > something like meal. Furthermore, incredible looks the commonly accepted
      > opinion that the Slavic word strava was loaned from Germanic, Gothic
      > specifically. Note that the Germanic stem should be strau- (with variations
      > of the endings) while the Slavic stem is trav-, with s- being a prefix. The
      > stem trav- is very productive in the Slavic languages. A few examples from
      > Russian (the list might be easily continued): (…)

      Je n'entre pas dans le détail de l'argumentation d'Anna Parzymies –
      qui concerne le slave, et non le germanique –, mais son objection principale
      est que le préfixe /s/- évoqué par Владимир Егоров serait en réalité « s(ъ)- »,
      et que la voyelle (!) « ъ » aurait dû laisser une trace en latin, sous forme d'un « u » :

      A więc /strava/ > /prasł. *s(ъ)trava/, prefiksalny rzeczownik od prasł. /trava/
      „trawa”, „pasza dla zwierząt” (…)

      Wątpliwość co do prawidlości tej etymologii wynika z braku śladu po samogłosce
      /ъ/, która powinna była znajdować się między nagłosowym /s/- i medialnym -/t/-, jako
      należąca do prefiksu /sъ/-. W transkrypcji łacińskiej zanotowano by ją jako /u/, ponieważ
      jest to jej adaptacyjny wariant w tym języku, czyli prasł. */sъtrava/ > łac. */sutrava/, a nie /strava/ ³².

      ³² M. Vasmer, /Niederle L. Manuel de l'antiquité slave/, Bd. 1 : L'histoire, „Zeitschrift für
      Slavische Philologie”, 1925, II, 3-4.

      Ainsi /strava/ > /vieux-slave *s(ъ)trava/, substantif préfixé venant de /trava/
      „herbe”, „fourrage pour animaux” (…)

      Le doute sur la pertinence de cette étymologie provient de l'absence de vestige de la voyelle /ъ/
      appartenant au préfixe /sъ/-, qui aurait dû se trouver entre le /s/- initial et le -/t/- médian. Elle aurait
      dû être notée par /u/ dans la transcription latine, puisque c'est la variante adaptée à cette langue, d'où
      vieux-slave */sъtrava/ > latin */sutrava/, et non /strava/ ³².

      > Turkic Etymologies

      « Etymologia turecka » : « Turkic Etymologie ».

      > Proposal of a Hunno-Proto-Bulgarian Etymology
      >
      > “after he has been mourned with such weepings, they celebrate together
      > upon his mound a giant feast, which they themselves call the ‘strawa”.
      > Getica XLIX 258.

      Владимир Егоров :

      > Also, if it is of interest for somebody, I give my translation of the Russian text
      > though the latter is almost a precise rendering of the Jordanes' Latin original:
      >
      > "After he had been bemoaned with such a wail, they maid on his barrow the _strava_
      > (they themselves name it this way) followed by a huge banquet".

      Je ne sais pas où le traducteur russe voit « сопровождая ее » dans le texte latin…

      > Note: There is a people cited by Pliny the Elder among the other
      > residents on the Caspian sea, /Natural History/ VI 46 " Then the
      > peoples of the Tapyri, Anariaci, Staures, Hyrcani,” " not mentioned by
      > Anna Parzymies: she doesn t know whether there could be here another
      > link between /st-r-av-a/ and /st-au-r-es/

      Cette note est personnelle, et n'engage en rien Anna Parzymies. J'ai
      vu ce peuple circaspien cité par Pline, les « Staures ». J'ignore – et le sait-on,
      d'ailleurs ? –, s'il est iranien, ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Je pensais à une
      possible métathèse consonantique, comme on en trouve en français,
      /formage/ > /fromage/, et en grec – les exemples sont empruntés à la
      /Gramatyka historyczna języka greckiego/ – « Grammaire historique
      de la langue grecque » – d'Oktawiusz Jurewicz –, θράσος / θάρσος,
      δίφρος / δρίφος, τάφρος / τράφος…
    • OSCAR HERRE
      ju haf wintrus-winter.....ju haf asan-summer-time of harvest......ju haf brunni-spring......jah ju haf gadrah-fall........wen ,ik im raight mith thizos
      Message 70 of 70 , Oct 22, 2012
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        ju haf wintrus-winter.....ju haf asan-summer-time of harvest......ju haf brunni-spring......jah ju haf gadrah-fall........wen ,ik im raight mith thizos insahts......

        --- On Mon, 10/22/12, autoreport <griffon77@...> wrote:


        From: autoreport <griffon77@...>
        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic Year/Season Words
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, October 22, 2012, 11:23 PM



         



        Athana- is a Latinized version of the original Gothic in names such as Athanaildus and Athanaricus, apparently through analogy with unrelated Greek Athanasios. The Gothic word is recorded in the compound at-athni "this year" (dative). The only known cognate is Latin annus, primitive *atnos. While yer/jer is directly cognate with other Germanic words for year, it is more distantly related to Greek hora "season" (a different grade of the European root). Counting years by winters is simply analogous to counting days by nights (a se'ennight, a fortnight etc.). We commonly count "how many sleeps", "how many winters". While "season" may have been a primitive sense of year, it was not a specific season (summer, lenten, winter, harvest), but a season in the broadest sense—a span of time.

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@> wrote:
        > >
        > > My understanding was that Gothic 'athana' meant 'year.'
        > >
        > > 'Juleis' (?) would be a two-month season around November-December,
        >
        > This is the reconstructed meaning via the Norse word y:lir (<Proto-
        > Norse *jiulijaz), which means just that. Yule itself would, however,
        > be *jiula, neut.pl., in Gothic (compare Norse jo:l, Gutnish jaul -
        > both neut.pl., a-stem). Juileis is found, of course, on the Gothic
        > calender fragment, where its meaning is less than obvious, while at
        > the same time seemingly refering to a period of time/month(s).
        >
        > > and 'wintrus' would (presumably) be a(nother) two-month season
        > around January-February, although the part can refer to the whole (as
        > in modern English: '# winters old').
        >
        > Phrases like 'X winters old' (counting age in winters/years) are very
        > typically Norse. Indeed, they seem to have been universal there. One
        > could likely reconstruct this for Gothic, as well, if parallels are
        > not already found in writing (Wulfila), in which case we should look
        > to these first. However, I do not imagine that wintrus can mean a two-
        > month period; rather, it would refer to a longer period. In Norse,
        > from which the Gothic-year/year-terminology is usually reconstructed.
        > winter is one half of the year (6 months), technically speaking (mid-
        > Oktober- mid-April), the other half being summer (sumar). There are a
        > variety of terms for autumn/fall and spring, but the basic division
        > was still winter-summer (50/50). The old tradition of telling age in
        > winters would also, it seem, reflect this tradition.
        >
        > > I figured that 'jer,' like 'wintrus,' had referred to one season
        > and (by extension) to the year, and had later displaced 'athana.'
        >
        > Well, year could also mean 'crops/wealth/produce(of the land)' in
        > Norse, as well as being a designation equivalent to ME 'year'. This
        > meaning must be ancient, as the Norse were required by law in heathen
        > times to sacrifice for 'good year' at fixed annual assemblies. Here
        > the meaning seems to be 'harvest/produce of the land', rather than a
        > fixed period of time. Thus, it would seem that the word could have
        > different, but related, meanings. I suspect that this would also hold
        > true for the Gothic term 'je:r'.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Konrad
        >








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