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RE: [gothic-l] Etymologie gothique pour "strava" ?

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  • Егоров Владимир
    ******************* Hi to everybody! No doubt that due to the Jordanes explanation
    Message 1 of 70 , Jun 27, 2006
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      *******************

      Hi to everybody!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



      No doubt that due to the Jordanes' explanation his strava upon a barrow (not around a pyre nor near a dead body) is a Slavic word meaning just something like meal. Furthermore, incredible looks the commonly accepted opinion that the Slavic word strava was loaned from Germanic, Gothic specifically. Note that the Germanic stem should be strau- (with variations of the endings) while the Slavic stem is trav-, with s- being a prefix. The stem trav- is very productive in the Slavic languages. A few examples from Russian (the list might be easily continued):



      трава [trava] -- grass, herb (in particular a live-stock _meal_);

      потрава [potrava] -- trampling down (when wild animals get into a vegetable garden);

      травить [travit'] -- to poison (to feed with a poison);

      стравить [stravit'] -- to set on to fight;

      натравить [natravit'] -- to set on, to incite;

      вытравить [vytravit'] -- to poison, to exterminate, to etch.



      I do not know origins of the Slavic stem trav-, but in any case it is not derivative from Gothic straujan or any other Germanic stems with close meanings either.



      Also, if it is of interest for somebody, I give my translation of the Russian text though the latter is almost a precise rendering of the Jordanes' Latin original:

      "After he had been bemoaned with such a wail, they maid on his barrow the _strava_ (they themselves name it this way) followed by a huge banquet".



      Vladimir




      -----Original Message-----
      From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Budelberger, Richard
      Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 6:30 PM
      To: Gothic-L
      Subject: [gothic-l] Etymologie gothique pour "strava" ?



      8 messidor an CCXIV (le 26 juin 2006 d. c.-d. c. g.), 15h54.

      Anna Parzymies examine dans son ouvrage /Język protobułgarski -- Przyczynek/
      /do rekonstrukcji na podstawie porównań turecki-słowiańskich/, Varsovie, 1994
      (« La langue protobulgare – Contribution à sa reconstruction sur la base de comparaisons
      turcoslaves ») les étymologies possibles du mot /strava/ cité dans les sources latines.

      On excusera la médiocrité de la traduction française : c'est la mienne.

      *II. Okres huński języka protobułgarskiego*
      *1. Spojrzenie socjo-lingwistyczne na kontakty słowiańsko-huńskie*
      *2. Zapożyczenia z języka hunów*

      /Strava/

      Jedyne appelativum huńskie, wymienione w dziele Jordanesa /Getica/ (*),
      jest także wyrazem słowiańskim. W języku polskim /strawa/ oznacza „jedzenie”,
      „potrawa” (…).
      Na temat tego wyrazu nagromadziła się pokaźna literatura autorstwa zarówno
      slawistów i germanistów, jak i turkologów ²². Slawiści i germaniści proponując
      odpowiednią etymologię słowiańską i gocką, starają się udowodnić, że wyraz
      ten został przez Hunów zapożyczony od Słowian lub od Gotów.

      *Uwarunkowania kulturowe*
      (…)

      *Uwarunkowania językowe proponowanych etymologii*

      Zobaczymy, jak sprawa przedstawia się od strony językowej. W tym celu
      podam najpierw istniejące etymologie z uwagami, które one wywołują.

      *Etymologia gocka*. Zarówno w gockim, jak i w innych językach germańskich
      wyraz /strava/ nie jest odnotowany. Wywodzi się go od stisl. /strā/, stniem. /strō/,
      anglsas. /streaw/ „słoma”. Wychodząc od gockiego czasownika /straujan/ „ausbreiten”,
      „streuen” (rozłożyć) zrekonstruowano znaczenie „Gerüst, Scheiterhaufen” (ognisko
      pogrzebowe w kształcie łoża) ³¹. Niewątpliwie ta rekonstrukcja wiąże się z obrzędem
      pogrzebowym, ale innego typu (kremacja) niż to było praktykowane u Hunów, którzy
      grzebali swoich zmarłych. Rekonstrukcja germańska ma więc mało wspólnego z wyrazem
      /strava/ Jordanesa, którego znaczenie wyjaśnił on jako „co(m)essatio, ōnis” (uczta) i jeszcze
      mniej ze słowiańskim znaczeniem tego wyrazu (jedzenie), który w ujęciu gockiej etymologii
      powinien być również zapożyczeniem germańskim.

      *Etymologie słowiańskie*. (…)

      *Etymologia turecka*. (…)

      *Propozycja etymologii huńsko-protobułgarskiej*. (…)

      * « postquam talibus lamentis est defletus, /stravam/ super tumulum eius quam appellant ipsi
      ingenti commessatione concelebrant », /Getica/, XLIX, 258. « После того как был он оплакан
      такими стенаниями, они справляют на его кургане /страву/ (так называют это они сами),
      сопровождая ее громадным пиршеством. »

      ²² K. Dąbrowski, /Hunowie europejscy/, s. 114, w : K. Dąbrowski, T. Nagradzka-Majchrzyk,
      E. Tryjarski, /Hunowie europejscy, Protobułgarzy, Chazarowie, Pieczyngowie/, Wrocław 1975.
      L. A. Gindin, /K chronologii i charakteru slavjanizacii karpato-balkanskogo prostranstva (po/
      /lingvističeskim i filologičeskim dannym)·/, w : /Formovanie rannefeodal’nych slavjanskich narodnostej/,
      Moskva 1981.

      ³¹ J. Grimm, /Über der Verbrenen der Leichen/, „Kleinere Schriften”, Berlin 1868, II, s. 37.

      *II. La période hunnique de la langue protobulgare*
      *1. Regard socio-linguistique sur les contacts slavo-hunniques*
      *2. Emprunts à partir de la langue des Huns*

      /Strava/

      Un /appelativum/ hunnique mentionné dans l’ouvrage de Jordanès, les /Getica/ (*), est aussi
      un mot slave. En polonais /strawa/ signifie « nourriture », « mets » (…).
      Il existe sur ce mot une littérature considérable due aux slavistes et germanistes comme aux
      turcologues²². Les slavistes et les germanistes, en proposant comme réponse une étymologie
      slave et gothique, s’efforcent de démontrer que ce mot a été emprunté par les Huns aux Slaves
      ou aux Goths.

      *Contraintes culturelles*
      (…)

      *Contraintes linguistiques des étymologies proposées*

      Examinons comment l’affaire se présente du point de vue linguistique. Dans ce but, je donne
      tout d’abord les étymologies proposées, et les réserves qu’elles inspirent.

      *Étymologie gothique*. Le gothique, comme les autres langues germaniques, n’offre pas
      d’attestation du mot /strava/. On le fait venir du vieil-islandais /strā/, vieil-allemand /strō/,
      anglosaxon /streaw/, « paille », dérivé du verbe gothique /straujan/, « ausbreiten », « streuen »,
      /répandre/, de sens reconstruit « Gerüst, Scheiterhaufen », /bûcher funéraire en forme de lit/ ³¹.
      Sans aucun doute, cette reconstruction est liée à une cérémonie funéraire, la crémation, mais
      d’un autre type que celle pratiquée par les Huns, qui enterraient leurs morts. La reconstruction
      germanisante a peu en commun avec la /strava/ de Jordanès, qu’il commente par « co(m)essatio, ōnis »,
      /banquet/, et encore moins avec le sens, /nourriture/, de ce mot slave qui, dans l’optique d’une étymologie
      gothique, doit être également un emprunt germanique.

      *Étymologies slaves*. (…)

      *Étymologie turque*. (…)

      *Proposition d’une étymologie hunnico-protobulgare*. (…)

      * « postquam talibus lamentis est defletus, /stravam/ super tumulum eius quam appellant ipsi ingenti
      commessatione concelebrant », /Getica/, XLIX, 258. « Après l’avoir ainsi pleuré, ils célèbrent sur
      son tumulus par un immense festin ce qu’ils appellent la /strava/. »

      Note : Il existe un peuple cité par Pline l'Ancien parmi d'autres riverains de la mer Caspienne,
      /Histoires naturelles/, VI, 46 – « mox gentes Tapyri, Anariaci, _Staures_, Hyrcani » – non évoqué par
      Anna Parzymies ; j'ignore s'il peut y avoir un lien entre /st-r-av-a/ et /St-au-r-es/.







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    • OSCAR HERRE
      ju haf wintrus-winter.....ju haf asan-summer-time of harvest......ju haf brunni-spring......jah ju haf gadrah-fall........wen ,ik im raight mith thizos
      Message 70 of 70 , Oct 22, 2012
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        ju haf wintrus-winter.....ju haf asan-summer-time of harvest......ju haf brunni-spring......jah ju haf gadrah-fall........wen ,ik im raight mith thizos insahts......

        --- On Mon, 10/22/12, autoreport <griffon77@...> wrote:


        From: autoreport <griffon77@...>
        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic Year/Season Words
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, October 22, 2012, 11:23 PM



         



        Athana- is a Latinized version of the original Gothic in names such as Athanaildus and Athanaricus, apparently through analogy with unrelated Greek Athanasios. The Gothic word is recorded in the compound at-athni "this year" (dative). The only known cognate is Latin annus, primitive *atnos. While yer/jer is directly cognate with other Germanic words for year, it is more distantly related to Greek hora "season" (a different grade of the European root). Counting years by winters is simply analogous to counting days by nights (a se'ennight, a fortnight etc.). We commonly count "how many sleeps", "how many winters". While "season" may have been a primitive sense of year, it was not a specific season (summer, lenten, winter, harvest), but a season in the broadest sense—a span of time.

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@> wrote:
        > >
        > > My understanding was that Gothic 'athana' meant 'year.'
        > >
        > > 'Juleis' (?) would be a two-month season around November-December,
        >
        > This is the reconstructed meaning via the Norse word y:lir (<Proto-
        > Norse *jiulijaz), which means just that. Yule itself would, however,
        > be *jiula, neut.pl., in Gothic (compare Norse jo:l, Gutnish jaul -
        > both neut.pl., a-stem). Juileis is found, of course, on the Gothic
        > calender fragment, where its meaning is less than obvious, while at
        > the same time seemingly refering to a period of time/month(s).
        >
        > > and 'wintrus' would (presumably) be a(nother) two-month season
        > around January-February, although the part can refer to the whole (as
        > in modern English: '# winters old').
        >
        > Phrases like 'X winters old' (counting age in winters/years) are very
        > typically Norse. Indeed, they seem to have been universal there. One
        > could likely reconstruct this for Gothic, as well, if parallels are
        > not already found in writing (Wulfila), in which case we should look
        > to these first. However, I do not imagine that wintrus can mean a two-
        > month period; rather, it would refer to a longer period. In Norse,
        > from which the Gothic-year/year-terminology is usually reconstructed.
        > winter is one half of the year (6 months), technically speaking (mid-
        > Oktober- mid-April), the other half being summer (sumar). There are a
        > variety of terms for autumn/fall and spring, but the basic division
        > was still winter-summer (50/50). The old tradition of telling age in
        > winters would also, it seem, reflect this tradition.
        >
        > > I figured that 'jer,' like 'wintrus,' had referred to one season
        > and (by extension) to the year, and had later displaced 'athana.'
        >
        > Well, year could also mean 'crops/wealth/produce(of the land)' in
        > Norse, as well as being a designation equivalent to ME 'year'. This
        > meaning must be ancient, as the Norse were required by law in heathen
        > times to sacrifice for 'good year' at fixed annual assemblies. Here
        > the meaning seems to be 'harvest/produce of the land', rather than a
        > fixed period of time. Thus, it would seem that the word could have
        > different, but related, meanings. I suspect that this would also hold
        > true for the Gothic term 'je:r'.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Konrad
        >








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