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Re: Etymologie gothique pour "strava" ?

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  • thiudans
    hails & thanks Richard: Here is a sort of english translation. Please excuse also my mediocrity (and errors, which correct!). -Matthew ... Anna Parzymies
    Message 1 of 70 , Jun 27, 2006
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      hails & thanks Richard:

      Here is a sort of english translation. Please excuse also my
      mediocrity (and errors, which correct!).

      -Matthew

      ----


      Anna Parzymies examines in her work _The Proto-Bulgarian Language â€"
      Contribution to its reconstruction on the basis comparison with
      Turko-Slavic_ the possible etymologies of the word /strava/ cited in
      their latin sources.

      Please excuse the mediocrity of the French translation: it is mine.
      [ “ “ English “ “ â€" Matthew]



      *II. Proto-Bulgarian in the Hunnic Period*
      *1. Sociolinguistic Look at Slavo-Hunnic contact*
      *2. Loans from the Hunnic language.*

      /Strava/

      A Hunnic appelative mentioned in the opening of Jordanes Getica* is
      also a Slavic word. In Polish / strawa/ means “nourishment”,
      “setting?” ( )
      About this word there is considerable writing given by slavicists and
      germanicists, as well as Turkic linguists. Slavicists and
      germanicists, proposing in response a Slavic and gothic etymology,
      attempt to demonstrate that this word was borrowed from Huns by the
      Slavs or Goths.


      Cultural constraints

      Linguistic Constraints of Proposed Etymologies

      Let us examine how the question is presented in the linguistic
      viewpoint. To this end, I give first of all the proposed etymologies
      and the reservations that they inspire.

      Gothic Etymology. Gothic, unlike the other Germanic languages, does
      not offer an attestation of the word /strava/. On must go to Old
      Icelandic /strá/, Old German /strô/, Anglo-Saxon /streaw/, “hay,
      straw”, derived from the gothic verb /straujan/, “spread out, strew”,
      reconstructs in meaning (framework, scaffolding, pyre) “funeral pyre
      in a bed-shape”.

      Without any doubt, this reconstruction is tied to a funeral ceremony,
      cremation, but of another type than that practiced by the Huns, who
      interred their dead. The Germanizing reconstruction has little in
      common with the /strava/ of Jordanes, who glosses it as “comessatio,
      -onis” (eating together) [I wonder if this could be parsed com-essatio
      “thorough consumption”-matthew], once again, let alone with the
      meaning /nourishment/, of this Slavic word that, in the perspective of
      a Gothic etymology, must also be a Germanic loan.

      Slavic Etymologies
      Turkic Etymologies

      Proposal of a Hunno-Proto-Bulgarian Etymology

      “after he has been mourned with such weepings, they celebrate together
      upon his mound a giant feast, which they themselves call the ‘strawa”.
      Getica XLIX 258.

      Note: There is a people cited by Pliny the Elder among the other
      residents on the Caspian sea, /Natural History/ VI 46 â€" “Then the
      peoples of the Tapyri, Anariaci, Staures, Hyrcani,” â€" not mentioned by
      Anna Parzymies: she doesn’t know whether there could be here another
      link between /st-r-av-a/ and /st-au-r-es/




      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Budelberger, Richard"
      <budelberger.richard@...> wrote:
      >
      > 8 messidor an CCXIV (le 26 juin 2006 d. c.-d. c. g.), 15h54.
      >
      > Anna Parzymies examine dans son ouvrage /Język protobułgarski --
      Przyczynek/
      > /do rekonstrukcji na podstawie porównań turecki-słowiańskich/,
      Varsovie, 1994
      > (« La langue protobulgare â€" Contribution à sa reconstruction sur la
      base de comparaisons
      > turcoslaves ») les étymologies possibles du mot /strava/ cité dans
      les sources latines.
      >
      > On excusera la médiocrité de la traduction française : c'est la
      mienne.
      >
      >
      > *II. Okres huński języka protobułgarskiego*
      > *1. Spojrzenie socjo-lingwistyczne na kontakty słowiańsko-huńskie*
      > *2. Zapożyczenia z języka hunów*
      >
      > /Strava/
      >
      > Jedyne appelativum huńskie, wymienione w dziele Jordanesa
      /Getica/ (*),
      > jest także wyrazem słowiańskim. W języku polskim /strawa/ oznacza
      „jedzenie”,
      > „potrawa” (…).
      > Na temat tego wyrazu nagromadziła się pokaźna literatura
      autorstwa zarówno
      > slawistów i germanistów, jak i turkologów ²². Slawiści i germaniści
      proponując
      > odpowiednią etymologię słowiańską i gocką, starają się udowodnić, że
      wyraz
      > ten został przez Hunów zapożyczony od Słowian lub od Gotów.
      >
      > *Uwarunkowania kulturowe*
      > (…)
      >
      > *Uwarunkowania językowe proponowanych etymologii*
      >
      > Zobaczymy, jak sprawa przedstawia się od strony językowej. W tym
      celu
      > podam najpierw istniejące etymologie z uwagami, które one wywołują.
      >
      > *Etymologia gocka*. Zarówno w gockim, jak i w innych językach
      germańskich
      > wyraz /strava/ nie jest odnotowany. Wywodzi się go od stisl. /strā/,
      stniem. /strō/,
      > anglsas. /streaw/ „słoma”. Wychodząc od gockiego czasownika
      /straujan/ „ausbreiten”,
      > „streuen” (rozłożyć) zrekonstruowano znaczenie „Gerüst,
      Scheiterhaufen” (ognisko
      > pogrzebowe w kształcie łoża) ³¹. Niewątpliwie ta rekonstrukcja wiąże
      się z obrzędem
      > pogrzebowym, ale innego typu (kremacja) niż to było praktykowane u
      Hunów, którzy
      > grzebali swoich zmarłych. Rekonstrukcja germańska ma więc mało
      wspólnego z wyrazem
      > /strava/ Jordanesa, którego znaczenie wyjaśnił on jako
      „co(m)essatio, ōnis” (uczta) i jeszcze
      > mniej ze słowiańskim znaczeniem tego wyrazu (jedzenie), który w
      ujęciu gockiej etymologii
      > powinien być również zapożyczeniem germańskim.
      >
      > *Etymologie słowiańskie*. (…)
      >
      > *Etymologia turecka*. (…)
      >
      > *Propozycja etymologii huńsko-protobułgarskiej*. (…)
      >
      >
      > * « postquam talibus lamentis est defletus, /stravam/ super
      tumulum eius quam appellant ipsi
      > ingenti commessatione concelebrant », /Getica/, XLIX, 258. « После
      того как был он оплакан
      > такими стенаниями, они справляют на его кургане /страву/ (так
      называют это они сами),
      > сопровождая ее громадным пиршеством. »
      >
      > ²² K. Dąbrowski, /Hunowie europejscy/, s. 114, w : K. Dąbrowski,
      T. Nagradzka-Majchrzyk,
      > E. Tryjarski, /Hunowie europejscy, Protobułgarzy, Chazarowie,
      Pieczyngowie/, Wrocław 1975.
      > L. A. Gindin, /K chronologii i charakteru slavjanizacii
      karpato-balkanskogo prostranstva (po/
      > /lingvističeskim i filologičeskim dannym)·/, w : /Formovanie
      rannefeodal’nych slavjanskich narodnostej/,
      > Moskva 1981.
      >
      > ³¹ J. Grimm, /Über der Verbrenen der Leichen/, „Kleinere
      Schriften”, Berlin 1868, II, s. 37.
      >
      >
      > *II. La période hunnique de la langue protobulgare*
      > *1. Regard socio-linguistique sur les contacts slavo-hunniques*
      > *2. Emprunts à partir de la langue des Huns*
      >
      > /Strava/
      >
      > Un /appelativum/ hunnique mentionné dans l’ouvrage de Jordanès,
      les /Getica/ (*), est aussi
      > un mot slave. En polonais /strawa/ signifie « nourriture », « mets »
      (…).
      > Il existe sur ce mot une littérature considérable due aux
      slavistes et germanistes comme aux
      > turcologues²². Les slavistes et les germanistes, en proposant comme
      réponse une étymologie
      > slave et gothique, s’efforcent de démontrer que ce mot a été
      emprunté par les Huns aux Slaves
      > ou aux Goths.
      >
      > *Contraintes culturelles*
      > (…)
      >
      > *Contraintes linguistiques des étymologies proposées*
      >
      > Examinons comment l’affaire se présente du point de vue
      linguistique. Dans ce but, je donne
      > tout d’abord les étymologies proposées, et les réserves qu’elles
      inspirent.
      >
      > *Étymologie gothique*. Le gothique, comme les autres langues
      germaniques, n’offre pas
      > d’attestation du mot /strava/. On le fait venir du vieil-islandais
      /strā/, vieil-allemand /strō/,
      > anglosaxon /streaw/, « paille », dérivé du verbe gothique
      /straujan/, « ausbreiten », « streuen »,
      > /répandre/, de sens reconstruit « Gerüst, Scheiterhaufen », /bûcher
      funéraire en forme de lit/ ³¹.
      > Sans aucun doute, cette reconstruction est liée à une cérémonie
      funéraire, la crémation, mais
      > d’un autre type que celle pratiquée par les Huns, qui enterraient
      leurs morts. La reconstruction
      > germanisante a peu en commun avec la /strava/ de Jordanès, qu’il
      commente par « co(m)essatio, ōnis »,
      > /banquet/, et encore moins avec le sens, /nourriture/, de ce mot
      slave qui, dans l’optique d’une étymologie
      > gothique, doit être également un emprunt germanique.
      >
      > *Étymologies slaves*. (…)
      >
      > *Étymologie turque*. (…)
      >
      > *Proposition d’une étymologie hunnico-protobulgare*. (…)
      >
      >
      > * « postquam talibus lamentis est defletus, /stravam/ super
      tumulum eius quam appellant ipsi ingenti
      > commessatione concelebrant », /Getica/, XLIX, 258. « Après l’avoir
      ainsi pleuré, ils célèbrent sur
      > son tumulus par un immense festin ce qu’ils appellent la /strava/. »
      >
      >
      > Note : Il existe un peuple cité par Pline l'Ancien parmi
      d'autres riverains de la mer Caspienne,
      > /Histoires naturelles/, VI, 46 â€" « mox gentes Tapyri, Anariaci,
      _Staures_, Hyrcani » â€" non évoqué par
      > Anna Parzymies ; j'ignore s'il peut y avoir un lien entre
      /st-r-av-a/ et /St-au-r-es/.
      >
    • OSCAR HERRE
      ju haf wintrus-winter.....ju haf asan-summer-time of harvest......ju haf brunni-spring......jah ju haf gadrah-fall........wen ,ik im raight mith thizos
      Message 70 of 70 , Oct 22, 2012
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        ju haf wintrus-winter.....ju haf asan-summer-time of harvest......ju haf brunni-spring......jah ju haf gadrah-fall........wen ,ik im raight mith thizos insahts......

        --- On Mon, 10/22/12, autoreport <griffon77@...> wrote:


        From: autoreport <griffon77@...>
        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic Year/Season Words
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, October 22, 2012, 11:23 PM



         



        Athana- is a Latinized version of the original Gothic in names such as Athanaildus and Athanaricus, apparently through analogy with unrelated Greek Athanasios. The Gothic word is recorded in the compound at-athni "this year" (dative). The only known cognate is Latin annus, primitive *atnos. While yer/jer is directly cognate with other Germanic words for year, it is more distantly related to Greek hora "season" (a different grade of the European root). Counting years by winters is simply analogous to counting days by nights (a se'ennight, a fortnight etc.). We commonly count "how many sleeps", "how many winters". While "season" may have been a primitive sense of year, it was not a specific season (summer, lenten, winter, harvest), but a season in the broadest sense—a span of time.

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michael Erwin <merwin@> wrote:
        > >
        > > My understanding was that Gothic 'athana' meant 'year.'
        > >
        > > 'Juleis' (?) would be a two-month season around November-December,
        >
        > This is the reconstructed meaning via the Norse word y:lir (<Proto-
        > Norse *jiulijaz), which means just that. Yule itself would, however,
        > be *jiula, neut.pl., in Gothic (compare Norse jo:l, Gutnish jaul -
        > both neut.pl., a-stem). Juileis is found, of course, on the Gothic
        > calender fragment, where its meaning is less than obvious, while at
        > the same time seemingly refering to a period of time/month(s).
        >
        > > and 'wintrus' would (presumably) be a(nother) two-month season
        > around January-February, although the part can refer to the whole (as
        > in modern English: '# winters old').
        >
        > Phrases like 'X winters old' (counting age in winters/years) are very
        > typically Norse. Indeed, they seem to have been universal there. One
        > could likely reconstruct this for Gothic, as well, if parallels are
        > not already found in writing (Wulfila), in which case we should look
        > to these first. However, I do not imagine that wintrus can mean a two-
        > month period; rather, it would refer to a longer period. In Norse,
        > from which the Gothic-year/year-terminology is usually reconstructed.
        > winter is one half of the year (6 months), technically speaking (mid-
        > Oktober- mid-April), the other half being summer (sumar). There are a
        > variety of terms for autumn/fall and spring, but the basic division
        > was still winter-summer (50/50). The old tradition of telling age in
        > winters would also, it seem, reflect this tradition.
        >
        > > I figured that 'jer,' like 'wintrus,' had referred to one season
        > and (by extension) to the year, and had later displaced 'athana.'
        >
        > Well, year could also mean 'crops/wealth/produce(of the land)' in
        > Norse, as well as being a designation equivalent to ME 'year'. This
        > meaning must be ancient, as the Norse were required by law in heathen
        > times to sacrifice for 'good year' at fixed annual assemblies. Here
        > the meaning seems to be 'harvest/produce of the land', rather than a
        > fixed period of time. Thus, it would seem that the word could have
        > different, but related, meanings. I suspect that this would also hold
        > true for the Gothic term 'je:r'.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Konrad
        >








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