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Sino-nymic (was Re: Haiku & Toponymics)

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  • Fredrik
    Hi! I enjoyed to read what you have written. Always fun to get to know what you others have in mind about gothic and the revival. ... former being still less
    Message 1 of 25 , May 22, 2006
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      Hi!

      I enjoyed to read what you have written. Always fun to get to know
      what you others have in mind about gothic and the revival.


      > - Well, that seems more to philosophy than to linguistix (the
      former being still less familiar field for me than the latter)...
      Just put in "languages" instead of "countries" and say isn't that the
      view that would kill the very idea of reconstructing a dead language.

      Some times I might be a little philosophic, but I'll try not to.
      About countries, I mean more exactly states. These can be created and
      we will see new ones in time. But if a language is gone it is gone
      and new ones doesnt appear in those places.


      > "Why are you so much in for a language not spoken one and a half
      thousand of years?" shall we all be asked, "none of you being able to
      provide a Gothic pedigree, so that a comparison with modern language
      revivals (like that of Ireland or Israel) is definitely out of place
      in your case.

      It might be a good idea to learn a language which was spoken 1000
      years ago or even more. If you wanna learn about ancient languages
      and the history of your own language. Thats why I also have tried to
      learn a little old english, and old swedish.
      But old english and old swedish never died but became modern
      languaues.
      Gothic was extinct and that's why I am more intressted in learning it
      and revive it.

      > Learn languages people speak now and don't feel so helpless before
      the face of the all-devouring Time".

      Actually, the people in my life (family and friends) have always
      asked me why I even bother to learn a language that nobody else uses.
      I won't have any use for it. And that's true. But ofcoz am I learning
      languages I can use in life and work etc.
      Some of those are english, german, spanish and just a very little
      french. I have planes about japanese and perhaps russian and arabic.

      > This could be really a discussion, and I'm almost sure this topic
      has been touched here more than once. What about names of countries –
      that's a question of methodology. Peru and Zimbabwe could become
      *Igkaland and *Rodisland (or whatever Germanic etymology of Rhodes'
      name can be) respectively, but it's not what I'd like to
      point out now.

      If you use igkaland you use none gothic words anyway so why not use a
      form of Peru, maybe Pairu. I recently read that the UN tries to make
      some kinda standard about toponymics. So why not follwo it, at least
      a little.

      A thought about the names of some places used by the vikings. These
      are not used in the modern scandinavian languaues now.
      E.g. a swedish name for Irak should have been Särkland in that case
      and maybe Algeria would have been Blåland. But it ain't so.
      So what ever wulfila and his pals called the
      countries/states/provinces at their time, it wouldn't most likley bee
      so today if gothic never became extinct.

      > Of course there will be much more countries with no hope to get
      a "true Gothic" name, but I think it can be a kind of fun to look
      into the country's history and try what we could invent about it.


      Yes, why not. I won't say that any ideas of a name is right or wrong.
      Igkaland could work as good as Pairu.


      > When looking for a word not attested in the 4th century Bible,
      what's your way to create a neologism? I guess most often you look
      how it is called in today's Germanic languages and then you
      simply "play back" this form into Gothic, like *sahriballus (not
      **baskaitbaulls!). Or, if you feel discontent with it's present
      pattern, you just invent a new one bearing in mind that it should be
      at least roughly understandable, let it be ridiculous, for the
      imagined "native speaker", like wokrahansa "banking company" (not
      *bagkondei gamainduths and still less **bagkiggakumpanja).

      Probably smth like that yes. If we can assume that a word existed I
      compare to pgmc but in other cases I like to create a similar word as
      in german or icelanic.
    • OSCAR HERRERA
      ik niu wesith qath gutiska daup ist.....weis alls sind rodidand gut.......i would nt say gothic is a dead language...were all speaking it.......jah mith tho
      Message 2 of 25 , May 22, 2006
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        ik niu wesith qath gutiska daup ist.....weis alls sind rodidand gut.......i would nt say gothic is a dead language...were all speaking it.......jah mith tho gaskeiran fram wulfila du ufraka tho andawairths......and with the translations of wulfila to reach the future....oscar

        Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi!

        I enjoyed to read what you have written. Always fun to get to know
        what you others have in mind about gothic and the revival.


        > - Well, that seems more to philosophy than to linguistix (the
        former being still less familiar field for me than the latter)...
        Just put in "languages" instead of "countries" and say isn't that the
        view that would kill the very idea of reconstructing a dead language.

        Some times I might be a little philosophic, but I'll try not to.
        About countries, I mean more exactly states. These can be created and
        we will see new ones in time. But if a language is gone it is gone
        and new ones doesnt appear in those places.


        > "Why are you so much in for a language not spoken one and a half
        thousand of years?" shall we all be asked, "none of you being able to
        provide a Gothic pedigree, so that a comparison with modern language
        revivals (like that of Ireland or Israel) is definitely out of place
        in your case.

        It might be a good idea to learn a language which was spoken 1000
        years ago or even more. If you wanna learn about ancient languages
        and the history of your own language. Thats why I also have tried to
        learn a little old english, and old swedish.
        But old english and old swedish never died but became modern
        languaues.
        Gothic was extinct and that's why I am more intressted in learning it
        and revive it.

        > Learn languages people speak now and don't feel so helpless before
        the face of the all-devouring Time".

        Actually, the people in my life (family and friends) have always
        asked me why I even bother to learn a language that nobody else uses.
        I won't have any use for it. And that's true. But ofcoz am I learning
        languages I can use in life and work etc.
        Some of those are english, german, spanish and just a very little
        french. I have planes about japanese and perhaps russian and arabic.

        > This could be really a discussion, and I'm almost sure this topic
        has been touched here more than once. What about names of countries –
        that's a question of methodology. Peru and Zimbabwe could become
        *Igkaland and *Rodisland (or whatever Germanic etymology of Rhodes'
        name can be) respectively, but it's not what I'd like to
        point out now.

        If you use igkaland you use none gothic words anyway so why not use a
        form of Peru, maybe Pairu. I recently read that the UN tries to make
        some kinda standard about toponymics. So why not follwo it, at least
        a little.

        A thought about the names of some places used by the vikings. These
        are not used in the modern scandinavian languaues now.
        E.g. a swedish name for Irak should have been Särkland in that case
        and maybe Algeria would have been Blåland. But it ain't so.
        So what ever wulfila and his pals called the
        countries/states/provinces at their time, it wouldn't most likley bee
        so today if gothic never became extinct.

        > Of course there will be much more countries with no hope to get
        a "true Gothic" name, but I think it can be a kind of fun to look
        into the country's history and try what we could invent about it.


        Yes, why not. I won't say that any ideas of a name is right or wrong.
        Igkaland could work as good as Pairu.


        > When looking for a word not attested in the 4th century Bible,
        what's your way to create a neologism? I guess most often you look
        how it is called in today's Germanic languages and then you
        simply "play back" this form into Gothic, like *sahriballus (not
        **baskaitbaulls!). Or, if you feel discontent with it's present
        pattern, you just invent a new one bearing in mind that it should be
        at least roughly understandable, let it be ridiculous, for the
        imagined "native speaker", like wokrahansa "banking company" (not
        *bagkondei gamainduths and still less **bagkiggakumpanja).

        Probably smth like that yes. If we can assume that a word existed I
        compare to pgmc but in other cases I like to create a similar word as
        in german or icelanic.










        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
        Yahoo! Groups Links









        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Guenther Ramm
        Fredrik wrote: Some times I might be a little philosophic, but I ll try not to. - I didn’t mean that so much, you know :) ... -
        Message 3 of 25 , May 22, 2006
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          Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: > Some times I might be a little philosophic, but I'll try not to.

          - I didn’t mean that so much, you know :)

          > But if a language is gone it is gone
          > and new ones doesnt appear in those places.

          - Well, sometimes it does. For instance, Latin is dead, but its “children” live on. PG is dead, but we have a handful of modern Germanic languages. If you mean the absence of direct descendants, then Gothic really seems to have died “childless” (unless we regard Gotlandic as its successor, in some way).

          > Actually, the people in my life (family and friends) have always
          asked me why I even bother to learn a language that nobody else uses.
          > I won't have any use for it.


          - The same I used to hear when starting to learn Old Norse.


          > If you use igkaland you use none gothic words anyway so why not use a
          > form of Peru, maybe Pairu. I recently read that the UN tries to make
          some kinda standard about toponymics. So why not follwo it, at least
          > a little.

          - *Igkaland seems to me to be closer to the pattern of Gothic toponyms (and Old Germanic at large): ethnonym + toponymic ending (-land by default). The people are then *Igkans (though I don’t know to what extend the today’s Peruvians may be called Incas?) and the adjective *igkisks. The once-being Incan Empire could be then *Igkareiki. *Pairu is no bad, but we have to get it somehow conform with the Gothic morphology. Is it a neutral u-stem? Maybe, nevertheless, *Pairuland? (just a madman for this -land, you see :)

          > A thought about the names of some places used by the vikings. These
          > are not used in the modern scandinavian languaues now.
          > E.g. a swedish name for Irak should have been Särkland in that case
          > and maybe Algeria would have been Blåland. But it ain't so.
          > So what ever wulfila and his pals called the
          > countries/states/provinces at their time, it wouldn't most likley bee
          > so today if gothic never became extinct.

          - Särkland I guess has something to do with Saracens? I’d think of adopted Greek Mesopotamia. *Maisupautamja? (just a “loud thought”). But unlike this, North Africa was no terra incognita for the historic Goths, with Vandals their cousins founding a state in what is now Tunisia and Algeria (I mean the coast line). Vandals and Ostrogoths had a lot of mutual contacts before the fall of Carthago Vandalica, and they spoke essentially the same language. There was definitely a certain name of the land which the Vandals occupied, but since we don’t know it (?), we’re in no better position than elsewhere.
          - Another way is to calque a country’s name from the native language. The more I look at “my” Stainagardi the more I like it (“over-modest” as usual:) I close my eyes and see a line like this: terra longinqua quam Gothi lingua sua Staenogardiam appellant (Ammianus Marcellinus) or: ...ubi et Stenegardza in fabulis eorum patere refertur (Jordanes). Time to call a psychoanalyst?

          > So what ever wulfila and his pals called the
          > countries/states/provinces at their time, it wouldn't most likley bee
          > so today if gothic never became extinct.

          - But, if it never became extinct, it would never be so today like we’re trying to reconstruct it (i.e. following the grammar of the 4th century). My idea was that if we write a Gothic language with all its inflexions, cases etc, the country names shouldn’t look so quite alien, and besides, they need to find their place in the grammar, that is to get a gender, declension and the rest. If strongly needed, it could be doubled by a modern name, e.g. a headline “Niujista us Stainagardjai (Zimbabwai)”
          Ualarauans

          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fredrik
          ... its children live on. Well...yes, but it depends on how to define it. You can say that latin neverbecame extinct but as all languages it changed during
          Message 4 of 25 , May 23, 2006
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            > - Well, sometimes it does. For instance, Latin is dead, but
            its "children" live on.

            Well...yes, but it depends on how to define it.
            You can say that latin neverbecame extinct but as all languages it
            changed during time and became "modern latin" but in several forms.
            If we should say that latin is dead, we mean latin spoken 2000 years
            ago but than we must say that english spoken 500 years ago and 400
            years and 50 years ago are dead as well.
            As I tried to say before, old english never died but changed into
            modern, eventhough in one way it could be called dead coz it aint
            spoken.

            PG is dead, but we have a handful of modern Germanic languages. If
            you mean the absence of direct descendants, then Gothic really seems
            to have died "childless" (unless we regard Gotlandic as its
            successor, in some way).

            The same about this as about latin.

            When does a language become dead and when does it have a "child"???
            Gothic as we use it might have had a child known as crimean gothic.
            And according to my definition of dead languages crimean gothic is
            dead, and with that also gothic.


            >
            > - *Igkaland seems to me to be closer to the pattern of Gothic
            toponyms (and Old Germanic at large): ethnonym + toponymic ending (-
            land by default). The people are then *Igkans (though I don't know to
            what extend the today's Peruvians may be called Incas?) and the
            adjective *igkisks. The once-being Incan Empire could be then
            *Igkareiki.

            Igkareiki is good in that meaning. And igkans and igkisks are also
            good, but I would perhaps use these words for the people of Igkareiki
            and not Peru.


            > *Pairu is no bad, but we have to get it somehow conform with the
            Gothic morphology. Is it a neutral u-stem? Maybe, nevertheless,
            *Pairuland? (just a madman for this -land, you see :)

            It could be a problem to fit in toponymics in gothic grammar. But
            Pairu could be, as you say, neuter u-stem. Or perhaps end it in -
            land, which would make it more easy to use.

            I don't know exactly what an adjective would be, maybe
            pairuisks/pairulandisks, and not what we could call a person of Peru.

            The language of the incas would maybe be igkarazda and the modern
            language based on a word for quechua.


            > - Särkland I guess has something to do with Saracens?

            It might be so or/and from old swedish saerker = shirt.
            The people there were wearing cloths which the vikings might have
            called saerker.


            > - But, if it never became extinct, it would never be so today
            like we're trying to reconstruct it (i.e. following the grammar of
            the 4th century). My idea was that if we write a Gothic language with
            all its inflexions, cases etc, the country names shouldn't look so
            quite alien, and besides, they need to find their place in the
            grammar, that is to get a gender, declension and the rest. >

            I cannot do anything but agree.

            Before you wrote about Macedonia and said that there's an attested
            name Makidonja. I guess that F.Y.R.O.M isn't used in colloquial
            speech but mostly only Macedonia. And a gothic name could be a
            translation of F.Y.R.O.M but we can use just Makidonja colloquial.

            About France, you said "Why *Fragkareiki and not *Fragkja or even
            *Frantsja (< France)."
            If we use the romance name Francia as base gothic would have Fragkja.
            Latin uncia is ugkja in gothic.
            But coz gothic is a germanic language I think it would be better to
            use a name which is more similar to the other germanic lanuages.
            German: Frankreich, Dutch: Frankrijk, Swedish: Frankrike.
            So Fragkareiki would be the best choice I think.


            Some ideas of F.Y.R.O.M:

            Former: faurthis
            Yugoslav: sunthrawinithisks/jugauslabisks/sunthraslabisks
            Republic: thiudawaihts
            Macedonia: Makidonja


            /Fredrik
          • llama_nom
            ... (- ... to ... Igkareiki ... I m not an expert on this, but I think there are other indigenous ethnicities living in the territory of modern Peru besides
            Message 5 of 25 , May 23, 2006
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              > > - *Igkaland seems to me to be closer to the pattern of Gothic
              > toponyms (and Old Germanic at large): ethnonym + toponymic ending
              (-
              > land by default). The people are then *Igkans (though I don't know
              to
              > what extend the today's Peruvians may be called Incas?) and the
              > adjective *igkisks. The once-being Incan Empire could be then
              > *Igkareiki.
              >
              > Igkareiki is good in that meaning. And igkans and igkisks are also
              > good, but I would perhaps use these words for the people of
              Igkareiki
              > and not Peru.


              I'm not an expert on this, but I think there are other indigenous
              ethnicities living in the territory of modern Peru besides speakers
              of Quechua, for example the Aymara. Calling the modern nation of
              Peru after the Inca empire would also leave us with the question of
              what to call the historical Inca empire, known by the indigenous
              name of Tiwantinsuyu. So maybe it would be clearer to invent Go.
              *Igkareiki "the Inca Empire"; Go. Paíru, nu "Peru" or Go. Paírû,
              na "Peru". In favour of the latter possibility, a neuter a-stem,
              compare the name Iesus < Gk. IHSOUS. Braune suggested that this may
              have had a long [u:], causing it to be declined as an a-stem by
              default, rather than a u-stem.

              Re. "Aiwropais Ahvos Thiudozuh" > "Aiwropos Ahvos jah Thiudos"
              (Rivers and peoples of Europe (nom.sg. Aiwropa?)): when functioning
              as an enclitic conjunction "and", -uh only conjoins sentences, not
              nouns or adjectives within a sentence.

              Llama Nom
            • Alexander Martin
              No language is dead that is still understood and used, no matter how few people use it. Latin is very much alive...there are websites (and books and journals)
              Message 6 of 25 , May 23, 2006
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                No language is dead that is still understood and used, no matter how few
                people use it. Latin is very much alive...there are websites (and books and
                journals) which publish new poetry and prose in Latin, and there are people
                who speak it...I once read some Latin prose to a scholar, who chided me for
                my "slovenly" pronunciation...and Gothic itself is coming back to life, in
                the form of the neo-Gothic which many members here are working on...and
                Church Slavonic is anything but dead...


                Regards,

                Alex Martin





                On 5/23/06, Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > > - Well, sometimes it does. For instance, Latin is dead, but
                > its "children" live on.
                >
                > Well...yes, but it depends on how to define it.
                > You can say that latin neverbecame extinct but as all languages it
                > changed during time and became "modern latin" but in several forms.
                > If we should say that latin is dead, we mean latin spoken 2000 years
                > ago but than we must say that english spoken 500 years ago and 400
                > years and 50 years ago are dead as well.
                > As I tried to say before, old english never died but changed into
                > modern, eventhough in one way it could be called dead coz it aint
                > spoken.
                >
                > PG is dead, but we have a handful of modern Germanic languages. If
                > you mean the absence of direct descendants, then Gothic really seems
                > to have died "childless" (unless we regard Gotlandic as its
                > successor, in some way).
                >
                > The same about this as about latin.
                >
                > When does a language become dead and when does it have a "child"???
                > Gothic as we use it might have had a child known as crimean gothic.
                > And according to my definition of dead languages crimean gothic is
                > dead, and with that also gothic.
                >
                >
                > >
                > > - *Igkaland seems to me to be closer to the pattern of Gothic
                > toponyms (and Old Germanic at large): ethnonym + toponymic ending (-
                > land by default). The people are then *Igkans (though I don't know to
                > what extend the today's Peruvians may be called Incas?) and the
                > adjective *igkisks. The once-being Incan Empire could be then
                > *Igkareiki.
                >
                > Igkareiki is good in that meaning. And igkans and igkisks are also
                > good, but I would perhaps use these words for the people of Igkareiki
                > and not Peru.
                >
                >
                > > *Pairu is no bad, but we have to get it somehow conform with the
                > Gothic morphology. Is it a neutral u-stem? Maybe, nevertheless,
                > *Pairuland? (just a madman for this -land, you see :)
                >
                > It could be a problem to fit in toponymics in gothic grammar. But
                > Pairu could be, as you say, neuter u-stem. Or perhaps end it in -
                > land, which would make it more easy to use.
                >
                > I don't know exactly what an adjective would be, maybe
                > pairuisks/pairulandisks, and not what we could call a person of Peru.
                >
                > The language of the incas would maybe be igkarazda and the modern
                > language based on a word for quechua.
                >
                >
                > > - Särkland I guess has something to do with Saracens?
                >
                > It might be so or/and from old swedish saerker = shirt.
                > The people there were wearing cloths which the vikings might have
                > called saerker.
                >
                >
                > > - But, if it never became extinct, it would never be so today
                > like we're trying to reconstruct it (i.e. following the grammar of
                > the 4th century). My idea was that if we write a Gothic language with
                > all its inflexions, cases etc, the country names shouldn't look so
                > quite alien, and besides, they need to find their place in the
                > grammar, that is to get a gender, declension and the rest. >
                >
                > I cannot do anything but agree.
                >
                > Before you wrote about Macedonia and said that there's an attested
                > name Makidonja. I guess that F.Y.R.O.M isn't used in colloquial
                > speech but mostly only Macedonia. And a gothic name could be a
                > translation of F.Y.R.O.M but we can use just Makidonja colloquial.
                >
                > About France, you said "Why *Fragkareiki and not *Fragkja or even
                > *Frantsja (< France)."
                > If we use the romance name Francia as base gothic would have Fragkja.
                > Latin uncia is ugkja in gothic.
                > But coz gothic is a germanic language I think it would be better to
                > use a name which is more similar to the other germanic lanuages.
                > German: Frankreich, Dutch: Frankrijk, Swedish: Frankrike.
                > So Fragkareiki would be the best choice I think.
                >
                >
                > Some ideas of F.Y.R.O.M:
                >
                > Former: faurthis
                > Yugoslav: sunthrawinithisks/jugauslabisks/sunthraslabisks
                > Republic: thiudawaihts
                > Macedonia: Makidonja
                >
                >
                > /Fredrik
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Guenther Ramm
                Hailai! ... pairuisks/pairulandisks, and not what we could call a person of Peru. - I think it could be *pairuwisks (with a euphonic -w- like in attested
                Message 7 of 25 , May 23, 2006
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                  Hailai!

                  Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
                  > I don't know exactly what an adjective would be, maybe
                  pairuisks/pairulandisks, and not what we could call a person of Peru.

                  - I think it could be *pairuwisks (with a euphonic -w- like in attested iudaiwisks and MnE “Peruvian”). But then, couldn’t it happen that this -uw- would turn –ggw- after the Holtzmann’s (?) Law (like skuggwa < *skuwa)? A Peruvian could perhaps be *Pairuwja M. –n, *Pairuwjans Pl. (looks close to English). Or maybe *Pairuggwja? Was that Law still in force in the Wulfilan epoch? If it was, then the latter form would look more preferable.

                  > Some ideas of F.Y.R.O.M:

                  > Former: faurthis
                  > Yugoslav: sunthrawinithisks/jugauslabisks/sunthraslabisks
                  > Republic: thiudawaihts
                  > Macedonia: Makidonja

                  - Sunth(r)a-winithisks seems to refer more to the South Slavs as a whole (in this respect today’s Macedonia is still *sunth(r)awinithiska as well as Bulgaria, Croatia etc.). That involves also the question to what extent Gothic *Winithos could be a proper equivalent for “Slavs”. I’m sure Vladimir has some special opinion on this. You know German _Wenden_ names mostly a group of West Slavs, and ON Vinðland if I remember right designated the territory of today’s West Poland and East Germany. But Jordanes (Get. 119) mentions Venethi as adversaries of Ermanaricus in what is now the Ukraine (?). At any rate we should perhaps invent first a name for Yugoslavia. Maybe smth like *Sunthaslawja (actually a partly translation)?
                  - To translate “republic” is an interesting task. I’d think of *frijareiki (you know Freistaat). Lat. res publica could be more or less *gamaininuts or *alamanamathli, but this latter acquires some “German” shade you see. How about *thiggareiki for “parliamentary republic”? But what exactly is meant here by “former republic”? I guess it means not as much the government form as the fact that this republic has been a part of a greater state. So, maybe *lithureiki (“Gliedreich”, klingt schrecklich!). Or *lithugawi?
                  So how we have it as a whole - Sunthaslawjos Airizo Lithureiki Makidonja (Thata SALMo)? Still more terrible (try to imagine a native Gothic speaker hearing that!)

                  llama_nom 600cell@... wrote:

                  > Calling the modern nation of
                  Peru after the Inca empire would also leave us with the question of
                  what to call the historical Inca empire, known by the indigenous
                  name of Tiwantinsuyu. So maybe it would be clearer to invent Go.
                  *Igkareiki "the Inca Empire"; Go. Paíru, nu "Peru"

                  - Yes, to use Inca for Peru is archaic, but I thought to speak Gothic now is to be a little bit archaic as well. This “chronologic stratification” of *Igkareiki and *Pairu seems the best solution, after all, for the modern use.

                  > or Go. Paírû,
                  na "Peru". In favour of the latter possibility, a neuter a-stem,
                  compare the name Iesus < Gk. IHSOUS. Braune suggested that this may
                  have had a long [u:], causing it to be declined as an a-stem by
                  default, rather than a u-stem.

                  - I thought that peculiar way to decline “Iesus” is due to some special sacral attitude to the name (like in MnG they say “Jesu”). But if it’s purely phonetic, then maybe this a-stem form would really better answer Spanish Peru (with the second syllable stressed). This -u- being apparently a part of the base wouldn’t get lost in oblique cases, compare Nom., Acc. Pairu; Gen. Pairaus; Dat. Pairau (if a u-stem) and Nom., Acc. Pairu; Gen. Pairuis; Dat. Pairua with a stress on this -u-, yes?

                  > Re. "Aiwropais Ahvos Thiudozuh" > "Aiwropos Ahvos jah Thiudos"
                  (Rivers and peoples of Europe (nom.sg. Aiwropa?)): when functioning
                  as an enclitic conjunction "and", -uh only conjoins sentences, not
                  nouns or adjectives within a sentence.

                  - I took Greek EURWPH as a possible source of Gothic *Aiwrope, with its Genitive being like that of Swriais (in Luc. 2:2). It could be the borrowed aipistaule which would help here, but you know it is not attested in Genitive and besides behaves quite irregularly in other cases (Braune/Helm 1952: 69).
                  Thanks for the correction of –uh usage. I thought it were a more exact equivalent of Lat. -que, which could be used here (?) like Europae Amnes Gentesque.

                  Ualarauans

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                • David Kiltz
                  ... HOLTZMANN is triggered by the presents of an original laryngeal. (E.g., for _skuggwa_ the root is IE *_(s)kewh1-_). So *_pairuwisk-_ should be fine. David
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 23, 2006
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                    On 23.05.2006, at 22:13, Guenther Ramm wrote:

                    > - I think it could be *pairuwisks (with a euphonic -w- like in
                    > attested iudaiwisks and MnE “Peruvian”). But then, couldn’t it
                    > happen that this -uw- would turn –ggw- after the Holtzmann’s (?)
                    > Law (like skuggwa < *skuwa)?

                    HOLTZMANN is triggered by the presents of an original laryngeal.
                    (E.g., for _skuggwa_ the root is IE *_(s)kewh1-_). So *_pairuwisk-_
                    should be fine.

                    David
                  • David Kiltz
                    ... It s rather due to the peculiar sound shape, I d say. Next to being declined like a ma or mi stem in Gothic, there is the dative form _Iesu_. The latter
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 23, 2006
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                      On 23.05.2006, at 22:13, Guenther Ramm wrote:

                      > - I thought that peculiar way to decline “Iesus” is due to some
                      > special sacral attitude to the name (like in MnG they say “Jesu”).

                      It's rather due to the peculiar sound shape, I'd say. Next to being
                      declined like a ma or mi stem in Gothic, there is the dative form
                      _Iesu_. The latter just being a transscription of the Greek dative.
                      The same is true for MnG _Jesus_, gen., vok. _Jesu_ which simply
                      follows the Greek (via Latin). Nothing too fancy here, really.

                      I agree with what you say about _Paíru_ being declinded as a na
                      stem, also because it avoids homophony with Go. _paíru_ 'sting, barb,
                      quill_ (a na stem).

                      David
                    • David Kiltz
                      ... By the presence, even. As the Verschärfung is not found in other loanwords, I think we can also exclude some sort of analogy. David
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 23, 2006
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                        On 24.05.2006, at 06:46, David Kiltz wrote:

                        > HOLTZMANN is triggered by the presents of an original laryngeal.
                        > (E.g., for _skuggwa_ the root is IE *_(s)kewh1-_). So *_pairuwisk-_
                        > should be fine.

                        By the presence, even. As the 'Verschärfung' is not found in other
                        loanwords, I think we can also exclude some sort of analogy.

                        David
                      • llama_nom
                        ... barb, ... Hi David, Is pairu an alternate reading of the gloss to 2Cor 12:7? Wright has gairu for that, but according to the 1956 edition of Braune s
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 24, 2006
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                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@...> wrote:
                          >

                          > I agree with what you say about _Paíru_ being declinded as a na
                          > stem, also because it avoids homophony with Go. _paíru_ 'sting,
                          barb,
                          > quill_ (a na stem).


                          Hi David,

                          Is 'pairu' an alternate reading of the gloss to 2Cor 12:7? Wright
                          has 'gairu' for that, but according to the 1956 edition of Braune's
                          Gotische Grammatik (revised by Karl Helm), 'gairu' was an earlier
                          reading for 'qairu'. It's a pity there isn't an online facsimile of
                          the epistles yet.

                          Llama Nom
                        • David Kiltz
                          ... Yes, it is indeed (..., atgibana ist mis hnuthô (paíru A) leika meinamma,...). I was aware of the various readings but had already sent the post when it
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 26, 2006
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                            On 24.05.2006, at 23:42, llama_nom wrote:

                            > Hi David,
                            >
                            > Is 'pairu' an alternate reading of the gloss to 2Cor 12:7? Wright
                            > has 'gairu' for that, but according to the 1956 edition of Braune's
                            > Gotische Grammatik (revised by Karl Helm), 'gairu' was an earlier
                            > reading for 'qairu'. It's a pity there isn't an online facsimile of
                            > the epistles yet.

                            Yes, it is indeed (..., atgibana ist mis hnuthô (paíru A) leika
                            meinamma,...). I was aware of the various readings but had already
                            sent the post when it occured to me that it should have been
                            accompanied by a small note. Sorry. The reading _paíru_ was proposed
                            by Ebbinghaus in GL (General Linguistics) 19 (1979), p. 188ff. It
                            figures in Braune/ Ebbinghause's 1981 edition of the 'Gotische
                            Grammatik' where it's taken to be an assured reading (with reference
                            to earlier ones, of course). It's still present and presented as an
                            assured reading in the 20. edition of the 'Gotische Grammatik' (2004)
                            edited by Frank Heidermanns. Magnús Snaedal also has it in his 1998
                            Compendium. The ealier reading _gairu_ goes back to Castiglione and
                            Uppström, the reading _qairu_ was Braun's. The latter is supported by
                            Streitberg in IF 24 (1909). I wanted to check Ebbinghauses
                            contribution in GL 19 but unfortunately our university library, in
                            all its glory, only has volumes1984+. So, I gotta get it elsewhere.
                            Maybe you can check it. It'd be interesting to know how Ebbinghaus
                            arrived at his reading. According to Streitberg's IF essay, we're
                            apparently dealing with mere traces of ink.
                            Streitberg spoke in favour of _qairu_ because it can nicely be
                            combined with IE. *_gweru_, cf. Lat. _veru_ n. 'Speer, Spieß' [spear,
                            skewer], Umbrian _berva_ 'uerua, Cymr., Corn., Bret. _ber_, OIR. _bi
                            (u)r_ idem. See Pokorny IEW p. 479.

                            David Kiltz
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