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RE: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos

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  • Егоров Владимир
    Hi Ualarauans! You understood wrong. I never connected the hypothetic white community with the Goths. More probably they were Baltic or Venedic people. You
    Message 1 of 27 , May 21, 2006
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      Hi Ualarauans!

      You understood wrong. I never connected the hypothetic "white community" with the Goths. More probably they were Baltic or Venedic people.
      You are wrong also regarding another your statement. "Chyud" means nothing in Old Church Slavonic, neither "ancient giants" nor anything else. In Old Russian "Chyud" is used exclusively as an ethnonym with undefined ethnicity. Never and nowhere the old Russian annals defined "Chyud" as the Baltic Finns (nor the Balts, nor Finns). The Finnish attribution of "Chyud" is only a tradition of the Russian historiography with no real grounds.
      I do not believe "some Gothic Gefolgschafts having went too far east finally dissolved among Finns bringing that layer of Germanic loanwords into Baltic Finnish". Vice versa. It seems more likely that the Finnish tribes populated neighborhoods of Chyudskoye lake in the middle of the first millennium AD, only a little bit earlier than the Slavs. And the main question is: Who were the aborigines here? According to Tacitus, the entire southern coast of Baltic See was Germanic in the first centuries AD. I do not see reasons to deny the Germanic substrate for the mentioned region as well. I would not risk contending that there were the Goths, as we understand them nowadays, but some unknown East Germanic people looks very probable. I guess it were forefathers of the so-called Izhora (i.e. Ingermanni).

      Vladimir


      -----Original Message-----
      From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
      Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
      Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:11 PM
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos




      еЗПТПЧ чМБДЙНЙТ <vegorov@...> wrote:
      > Hi Ualarauans and others!



      > Of course, rivers of various "colors" are scattered around the world, and the

      > name "White river" is too habitual to draw with such an argument to quick

      conclusions. In some cases, a "white" community may be of importance, in most

      cases not. For example, I guess a "white" area encompasses Baltic countries (the

      > stem balt- means in Lithuanian white) and Belarus (the stem bel- means in Slavic

      > same white). But I do not see reasons to expand this community up to Volga.

      The official Russian history considers the so called "chyud'" of Old Russian

      chronicles as a Finnish people that populated the territory around old Novgorod

      > on Volkhov. Though long ago linguists derived this "chyud'" from Gothic "thiuda"

      > (with palatalization of th and d), the official Russian science refused to admit

      > the evident facts in its perpetual fight against the so called "normanism", i.e.

      > participation of any Germanic components in creation of the first Russian state

      > Kiev's Rus'. Meanwhile, if the Chernyakhov culture was Gothic, if the "chyud'"

      > was a Germanic tribe, everything changes in the old Russian prehistory!

      Derivation of the name of Volkhov river from Old Germanic is therefore of great

      > interest and importance. I would be very grateful to everybody who could clarify

      > this point a little bit if nothing else.



      > Vladimir


      - So you think (if I understood right) this "white" proto-people of the Northeast Europe were Goths? I guess the word tchiud' (singulative tchiudinu) meant something like "ancient giant", "Rephaim" in Old Church Slavonic and is really a reflex of borrowed thiuda, this latter being an auto-ethnonym of some part of East-Germanic wandering communities (cf. analogical development in NHG Huene "giant" < OHG Hu:ni "Huns" - is there in Russian some tchiud'-derived pendant to German Huenenbett or Huenengrab referring to prehistoric mounds?). That the East-Slavic (= Old Russian) annals applied this term to some of Baltic Finns may stand in witness of the fact that some Gothic Gefolgschafts having went too far east finally dissolved among Finns bringing that layer of Germanic loanwords into Baltic Finnish which is usually connected with East-Germanic, e.g. miekka < mekeis, niekla < nethla etc. Given this we could seriously discuss the problem of possible Gothic toponymics in
      Northwest Russia.
      That involves also the question of Gothic "landing points" - was it the Vistula mouth (Goth. *Gutiskandi / *Gipidaujos?) only or maybe some other parts of the South Baltic coast as well? Perhaps the Gulf of Riga and even the Gulf of Finland?
      You know there's Peipus lake between Russia and Estonia which is Tchiudskoye ozero in Russian - could it have been once and be again *Thiudisks saiws (Max Vasmer's old hypothesis)?

      Ualarauans

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    • Guenther Ramm
      åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ wrote: You are wrong also regarding another your statement. Chyud means nothing in Old Church
      Message 2 of 27 , May 22, 2006
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        åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@...> wrote: > You are wrong also regarding another your statement. "Chyud" means nothing in Old Church Slavonic, neither "ancient giants" nor anything else.

        - Dear Vladimir, I suspect it’s not me but the Russian Academy of Sciences which you can address that. In 1994 it issued Staroslov’yanski Slovar’ (10-11 cc.) where it’s asserted (I’m citing out of memory so there may be errors) that the noun _sht’yud’i_ (don’t know the right way to transliterate that) as well as the derivative adjective _sht’yuzhd’i_ ARE attested in Old Church Slavonic, what answers the traditional view of it as a Common Slavic epoch borrowing from Germanic, most probably East-Germanic. The latter adjective still lives in the most Slavic languages meaning “foreign”, “alien” and the like. I doubt very much that it could spread from Russian into the rest of Slavia as late as the 8th-9th cc. (supposed time of East-Slavs approaching the Baltic area) when the Common Slavic language processes had been long over. This is more likely to mean that the East-Slavs reached the region where their later annals localize this mysterious people already bearing in mouth
        the word _chud’_ (< PSl *t’jud’i < Goth. thiuda) of an “unknown, foreign people”, which they specified for the Baltic Finns as the only non-Slavic folk they encountered there. The word itself seems to go back to that stormy epoch of 2nd-6th cc. when very active contacts were being maintained between the would-be Slavs and the Goths during the Chernyakhov time and later within the Hunnish “coalition”. You know chud’ is far from being the only Gothic loanword in Slavic, and there’s a couple of words in attested Gothic which are supposed of a Slavic origin (I know of the verb plinsjan “to dance” < PSl. plesati (nasal _e_), and if “my” idea of connecting Goth. slawan “to be silent” with the name of Slavs I posted here before be right (?), then that’s another one).
        - As for the chronology and precise meaning (let alone the very existence) of the word _sht’yud’i_ in Old Church Slavonic so I’ll have a look in the said Slovar’ or in Vasmer’s Russisches etymologisches Wörterbuch and post it with an accurate up-to-the-page-number reference as soon as I can. Until then I beg your trust that this “ancient giant” is not a product of my imagination (what of course does happen sometimes, but I hope not this time). There can easily be some other errors thereabout in the meanwhile.
        - Actually, I guess the view on this stem as a Common Slav borrowing is to be found in every academic etymological dictionary of Slavic languages, and the Russian ones are no exception. But if you believe that the Russian science “refuses to admit evident facts” or is based on “traditions with no real grounds” then maybe it’s no argument. But then, who launched the first manned spaceship? shall I ask :)

        > Never and nowhere the old Russian annals defined "Chyud" as the Baltic Finns (nor the Balts, nor Finns).


        - I see I better define the term “Baltic Finns”. It refers to Suomi, Eesti, Karjala and several smaller groups as opposed to Volgaic Finnish and Ugric. I don’t know precisely about the annals, but in spoken Russian a word “chukhna” (< chud’) was (is?) used as a derogatory slang name of Estonians.

        > And the main question is: Who were the aborigines here? According > to Tacitus, the entire southern coast of Baltic See was Germanic in > the first centuries AD. I do not see reasons to deny the Germanic substrate for the mentioned region as well. I would not risk contending that there were the Goths, as we understand them nowadays, but some unknown East Germanic people looks very probable. I guess it > were forefathers of the so-called Izhora (i.e. Ingermanni).


        - A Germanic substrate in Southeast Baltic preceding Finns? That’s interesting, but is there some more evidence besides Tacitus? According to Tacitus, the Earth is a flat disc, maybe :) The Ingermanland (Inkeri) language still lives, though close to extinction, in several villages near St.-Petersburg. It is well described in the literature and is no more Germanic than Finnish or Estonian. It belongs to the same Baltic Finnish group I said of above.
        - Finally, I wonder what is “Venedic” in your context?

        I hope our list-mates will not consider this discussion as being totally off-topic. If you nevertheless do, please give us a hint so that we could stop.

        Ualarauans

        Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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      • Ingemar Nordgren
        ... interesting, but is there some more evidence besides Tacitus? According to Tacitus, the Earth is a flat disc, maybe :) The Ingermanland (Inkeri) language
        Message 3 of 27 , May 22, 2006
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:

          > - A Germanic substrate in Southeast Baltic preceding Finns? That's
          interesting, but is there some more evidence besides Tacitus?
          According to Tacitus, the Earth is a flat disc, maybe :) The
          Ingermanland (Inkeri) language still lives, though close to
          extinction, in several villages near St.-Petersburg. It is well
          described in the literature and is no more Germanic than Finnish or
          Estonian. It belongs to the same Baltic Finnish group I said of above.

          Hi Ualarus and Vladimir,

          There is an earlier Germanic people according to the earlier
          researchers supposed to have settled the area before the Goths. This
          is of course before the present tendency to see a pure native
          developement between the different cultures in present Wielbark - a
          tendency which I partly oppose since it excludes any outside
          interference. This people is supposed to be the Bastarni and also in a
          discussed relation to them the Sciri.

          Best
          Ingemar
        • Егоров Владимир
          Hi Ualarauans and Ingemar! I also hope our moderators will look through their fingers at our discussion. I would readdress my claims to the Russian Academy of
          Message 4 of 27 , May 23, 2006
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            Hi Ualarauans and Ingemar!

            I also hope our moderators will look through their fingers at our discussion.
            I would readdress my claims to the Russian Academy of Sciences with pleasure but, I am sure, with no result. I myself work within that formation and do not have any illusions.
            Of course, all my previous remarks referred solely to the ethnonym "chyud'", not the stem, which appeared in Old Church Slavonic in the form "chuzhd-" and has derivatives in Russian (chuzhoy, chudnoy etc.), with the meaning strange, foreign as well.
            Note, the Baltic Finns were not the only non-Slavic folk the East-Slavs encountered on the banks of Chudskoye lake if they were at all there. At least a big Baltic tribe, the so-called Pskov's Kriviches, lived there while presence of your "Baltic Finns" is not proved archaeologically.
            Any contacts between the Goths and Slavs within the area of the Chernyakhov culture looks very dubious. First, the lifetime of the culture was too short. Second, existence of some Slavs (or Pre-Slavs) in that area is questionable by itself. I seem you should find other places and times for those contacts. Ingemar, the Russian archaeologist Shchukin develops an idea of Bastarnian participation in the Slavonic ethnogenesis with references to the zarubinetskaya culture. But he considers the Bastarni as rather the Celts than the Germans or, more exactly, a "third people between the Celts and Germans".
            Yes, the Ingermanland (Inkeri) language still lives, but the French language lives and prospers also, though it is not a German language of the original Franks. The same way the original conjectural East Germanic language of the Ingermanni was consecutively finnishized (Inger > Inkeri) and than slavonized (Inkeri > Izhora).
            A remark on the launch of the first manned spaceship. Again, all the same. The Soviet people did not know that the first sputnik and the first man ascended into the space using German engines of Werner von Braun and, to a significant extent, German fuel. All German sources were always concealed and never mentioned in the USSR, both in history and technology.

            Vladimir


            -----Original Message-----
            From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
            Behalf Of Ingemar Nordgren
            Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 11:26 PM
            To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos Thiudozuh


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:

            > - A Germanic substrate in Southeast Baltic preceding Finns? That's
            interesting, but is there some more evidence besides Tacitus?
            According to Tacitus, the Earth is a flat disc, maybe :) The
            Ingermanland (Inkeri) language still lives, though close to
            extinction, in several villages near St.-Petersburg. It is well
            described in the literature and is no more Germanic than Finnish or
            Estonian. It belongs to the same Baltic Finnish group I said of above.

            Hi Ualarus and Vladimir,

            There is an earlier Germanic people according to the earlier
            researchers supposed to have settled the area before the Goths. This
            is of course before the present tendency to see a pure native
            developement between the different cultures in present Wielbark - a
            tendency which I partly oppose since it excludes any outside
            interference. This people is supposed to be the Bastarni and also in a
            discussed relation to them the Sciri.

            Best
            Ingemar






            You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
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          • Guenther Ramm
            Hi Vladimir! As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud’... You seem to mistrust your
            Message 5 of 27 , May 24, 2006
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              Hi Vladimir!

              As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud’...
              You seem to mistrust your colleagues at the Academy of Sciences, so I’ll confine myself with Max Vasmer. He’s not Russian and therefore maybe less likely to participate with that scientists’ conspiracy you told of :) His Russisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch was published in 1950-1958 in Heidelberg and re-edited in 1986-1987 by Moscow “Progress” publishing house. He asserts as well (vol. 4, p. 378) that _chud’_ is a name of the Old Finns once populating regions of Pskov, Novgorod, Archangelsk and Olonets, and that the primordial meaning of the word is usually held to be “Germanen” with its origin brought back to Gothic thiuda.
              Regarding the “Chudskoye” (Peipus) lake, it was not his idea to explain it from Gothic *thiudisks saiws “Deutscher See” as I wrongly said but that of the “Learned Estonian Society in Dorpat” (Sitzber. der Gel. Estn. Ges., 1920: 112) which he cites (ibidem), however critically. He reports also the lake’s popular name Chukhonskoye ozero.
              Here I’d like to adduce another source. It is Russian-Estonian dictionary (Wene-Eesti Sõnaraamat. - Jurjew (Tartu): K. A. Raag’i kirjastus, 1904), p. 1015, where Russ. _chukhna_ is defined as follows: “so Russians call in general Finnish-related peoples of the Baltic Sea region – Estonians, Finns and others, including those Finns living around St.-Petersburg” (nõnda nimetawad wenelased üleüldse Läänemere-äärseid Soomesugu rahwaid - eestlasi, soomlasi j.t., iseäranis aga Peterburi ümber asuwaid soomlasi); hence _chukhonets_ M., _chukhonka_ F. “Finn, Estonian” (soomlane, eestlane); _chukhonski_ Adj. “Finnish, Estonian” (Soome-, Eesti-). With regard to _chukhna_ being a debased form of _chud’_, it wouldn’t look very convincing to assume that these semantics in spoken Russian could have resulted from a suspected historic prejudice in Russian scientific circles. It seems much more probable that this meaning has been retained in vulgo since the times of the first contacts
              between the Slavs and the Finns in this region.
              Incidentally, Vasmer denies a Finnish etymology for “Volga” (vol. 1, p. 336-7) leading it together with Czech Vlha (the Elbe basin) and Polish Wilga (the Vistula basin) back to PSl. *Vilga (reduced -i-), cognate to OChSl _vlaga_ “moisture” (different ablaut stages) and words of other IE languages with similar meanings. It’s not Volga but Vologda which comes from Vepsä våuged (< *valkeða), Fin. valkea, Est. valge “white” (p. 340)
              Regarding that RA of Ptolemy, it was not my idea of connecting it with Avestan Rangha and Sanskrit Rasa but Vasmer’s (it just remained nameless in my memory after reading it some time ago). Looking at Mordvin names of Volga - Rav, Ravo, Rava (ibidem) - one could really suppose some Gothic mediating form like *Rahva or *Rawi... Btw. Tatars use Kara Idyl (“black Itil”) alongside with Idyl alone for Volga as distinguished from Ak Idyl “Kama” or “Belaya” (ibidem).
              To finish with Vasmer, on p. 346 he tells of Swedish Ålhava “Volkhov river” attested in a 16th century record < Fin. Olhavanjoki, Olhava.

              Ualarauans

              P.S. Didn’t that nazi think-tank von Braun work for the U. S. after 1945?


              åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@...> wrote:
              Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Егоров Владимир
              Hi Ualarauans! Long citations from Vasmer are hardly a best filling for the correspondence, especially if they do not clarify the matter. A lot of water has
              Message 6 of 27 , May 24, 2006
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                Hi Ualarauans!

                Long citations from Vasmer are hardly a best filling for the correspondence, especially if they do not clarify the matter. A lot of water has run away in Volga and Volkhov since Vasmer's times. No doubt, we know much more than Vasmer regarding the first millennium AD. I'd like to obtain some new evidences on the Germanic past of modern Northwest Russia and East Baltic region, if anybody has them.

                Vladimir

                P.S. Yes, same von Braun. Nazi? Maybe, but I gather not more than, for example, his Soviet colleague Korolyov was a communist. Both were first of all gifted engineers ready to tune themselves up in order to have possibility to busy with the favorite work.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:53 PM
                To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos jah Thiudos


                Hi Vladimir!

                As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud'...
                You seem to mistrust your colleagues at the Academy of Sciences, so I'll confine myself with Max Vasmer. He's not Russian and therefore maybe less likely to participate with that scientists' conspiracy you told of :) His Russisches Etymologisches Wцrterbuch was published in 1950-1958 in Heidelberg and re-edited in 1986-1987 by Moscow "Progress" publishing house. He asserts as well (vol. 4, p. 378) that _chud'_ is a name of the Old Finns once populating regions of Pskov, Novgorod, Archangelsk and Olonets, and that the primordial meaning of the word is usually held to be "Germanen" with its origin brought back to Gothic thiuda.
                Regarding the "Chudskoye" (Peipus) lake, it was not his idea to explain it from Gothic *thiudisks saiws "Deutscher See" as I wrongly said but that of the "Learned Estonian Society in Dorpat" (Sitzber. der Gel. Estn. Ges., 1920: 112) which he cites (ibidem), however critically. He reports also the lake's popular name Chukhonskoye ozero.
                Here I'd like to adduce another source. It is Russian-Estonian dictionary (Wene-Eesti Sхnaraamat. - Jurjew (Tartu): K. A. Raag'i kirjastus, 1904), p. 1015, where Russ. _chukhna_ is defined as follows: "so Russians call in general Finnish-related peoples of the Baltic Sea region - Estonians, Finns and others, including those Finns living around St.-Petersburg" (nхnda nimetawad wenelased ьleьldse Lддnemere-ддrseid Soomesugu rahwaid - eestlasi, soomlasi j.t., iseдranis aga Peterburi ьmber asuwaid soomlasi); hence _chukhonets_ M., _chukhonka_ F. "Finn, Estonian" (soomlane, eestlane); _chukhonski_ Adj. "Finnish, Estonian" (Soome-, Eesti-). With regard to _chukhna_ being a debased form of _chud'_, it wouldn't look very convincing to assume that these semantics in spoken Russian could have resulted from a suspected historic prejudice in Russian scientific circles. It seems much more probable that this meaning has been retained in vulgo since the times of the first contacts
                between the Slavs and the Finns in this region.
                Incidentally, Vasmer denies a Finnish etymology for "Volga" (vol. 1, p. 336-7) leading it together with Czech Vlha (the Elbe basin) and Polish Wilga (the Vistula basin) back to PSl. *Vilga (reduced -i-), cognate to OChSl _vlaga_ "moisture" (different ablaut stages) and words of other IE languages with similar meanings. It's not Volga but Vologda which comes from Vepsд vеuged (< *valkeрa), Fin. valkea, Est. valge "white" (p. 340)
                Regarding that RA of Ptolemy, it was not my idea of connecting it with Avestan Rangha and Sanskrit Rasa but Vasmer's (it just remained nameless in my memory after reading it some time ago). Looking at Mordvin names of Volga - Rav, Ravo, Rava (ibidem) - one could really suppose some Gothic mediating form like *Rahva or *Rawi... Btw. Tatars use Kara Idyl ("black Itil") alongside with Idyl alone for Volga as distinguished from Ak Idyl "Kama" or "Belaya" (ibidem).
                To finish with Vasmer, on p. 346 he tells of Swedish Еlhava "Volkhov river" attested in a 16th century record < Fin. Olhavanjoki, Olhava.

                Ualarauans

                P.S. Didn't that nazi think-tank von Braun work for the U. S. after 1945?


                еЗПТПЧ чМБДЙНЙТ <vegorov@...> wrote:
                Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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              • Guenther Ramm
                I guess it doesn’t take a genius “to clarify the matter”. What so much more do you know, Vladimir, neither to respect an academic authority nor to heed a
                Message 7 of 27 , May 24, 2006
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                  I guess it doesn’t take a genius “to clarify the matter”. What so much more do you know, Vladimir, neither to respect an academic authority nor to heed a minimum etiquette in polemics? I was well aware of the existence of that kind of self-hating nazi-loving persons around Germanic topics, but I didn’t expect to meet them here.

                  Ualarauans


                  åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@...> wrote: Hi Ualarauans!

                  Long citations from Vasmer are hardly a best filling for the correspondence, especially if they do not clarify the matter. A lot of water has run away in Volga and Volkhov since Vasmer's times. No doubt, we know much more than Vasmer regarding the first millennium AD. I'd like to obtain some new evidences on the Germanic past of modern Northwest Russia and East Baltic region, if anybody has them.

                  Vladimir

                  P.S. Yes, same von Braun. Nazi? Maybe, but I gather not more than, for example, his Soviet colleague Korolyov was a communist. Both were first of all gifted engineers ready to tune themselves up in order to have possibility to busy with the favorite work.


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                  Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                  Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:53 PM
                  To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos jah Thiudos


                  Hi Vladimir!

                  As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud'...
                  You seem to mistrust your colleagues at the Academy of Sciences, so I'll confine myself with Max Vasmer. He's not Russian and therefore maybe less likely to participate with that scientists' conspiracy you told of :) His Russisches Etymologisches WÃrterbuch was published in 1950-1958 in Heidelberg and re-edited in 1986-1987 by Moscow "Progress" publishing house. He asserts as well (vol. 4, p. 378) that _chud'_ is a name of the Old Finns once populating regions of Pskov, Novgorod, Archangelsk and Olonets, and that the primordial meaning of the word is usually held to be "Germanen" with its origin brought back to Gothic thiuda.
                  Regarding the "Chudskoye" (Peipus) lake, it was not his idea to explain it from Gothic *thiudisks saiws "Deutscher See" as I wrongly said but that of the "Learned Estonian Society in Dorpat" (Sitzber. der Gel. Estn. Ges., 1920: 112) which he cites (ibidem), however critically. He reports also the lake's popular name Chukhonskoye ozero.
                  Here I'd like to adduce another source. It is Russian-Estonian dictionary (Wene-Eesti SÈnaraamat. - Jurjew (Tartu): K. A. Raag'i kirjastus, 1904), p. 1015, where Russ. _chukhna_ is defined as follows: "so Russians call in general Finnish-related peoples of the Baltic Sea region - Estonians, Finns and others, including those Finns living around St.-Petersburg" (nÈnda nimetawad wenelased ØleØldse LÄÄnemere-ÄÄrseid Soomesugu rahwaid - eestlasi, soomlasi j.t., iseÄranis aga Peterburi Ømber asuwaid soomlasi); hence _chukhonets_ M., _chukhonka_ F. "Finn, Estonian" (soomlane, eestlane); _chukhonski_ Adj. "Finnish, Estonian" (Soome-, Eesti-). With regard to _chukhna_ being a debased form of _chud'_, it wouldn't look very convincing to assume that these semantics in spoken Russian could have resulted from a suspected historic prejudice in Russian scientific circles. It seems much more probable that this meaning has been retained in vulgo since the times of the first contacts
                  between the Slavs and the Finns in this region.
                  Incidentally, Vasmer denies a Finnish etymology for "Volga" (vol. 1, p. 336-7) leading it together with Czech Vlha (the Elbe basin) and Polish Wilga (the Vistula basin) back to PSl. *Vilga (reduced -i-), cognate to OChSl _vlaga_ "moisture" (different ablaut stages) and words of other IE languages with similar meanings. It's not Volga but Vologda which comes from VepsÄ vÅuged (< *valkeÒa), Fin. valkea, Est. valge "white" (p. 340)
                  Regarding that RA of Ptolemy, it was not my idea of connecting it with Avestan Rangha and Sanskrit Rasa but Vasmer's (it just remained nameless in my memory after reading it some time ago). Looking at Mordvin names of Volga - Rav, Ravo, Rava (ibidem) - one could really suppose some Gothic mediating form like *Rahva or *Rawi... Btw. Tatars use Kara Idyl ("black Itil") alongside with Idyl alone for Volga as distinguished from Ak Idyl "Kama" or "Belaya" (ibidem).
                  To finish with Vasmer, on p. 346 he tells of Swedish ålhava "Volkhov river" attested in a 16th century record < Fin. Olhavanjoki, Olhava.

                  Ualarauans

                  P.S. Didn't that nazi think-tank von Braun work for the U. S. after 1945?


                  Åúðôðþ Þíâäêîêô wrote:
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                • Егоров Владимир
                  Sorry, Ualarauans, if I accidentally touched your feelings. I dare assure you I am neither self-hating nor nazi-loving, and the topic I am interesting in is
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 24, 2006
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                    Sorry, Ualarauans, if I accidentally touched your feelings. I dare assure you I am neither self-hating nor nazi-loving, and the topic I am interesting in is rather Russian than Germanic. Anyhow, no offence was meant from my part. Excuse me once more.

                    Vladimir


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                    Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                    Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:18 PM
                    To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos jah Thiudos


                    I guess it doesn't take a genius "to clarify the matter". What so much more do you know, Vladimir, neither to respect an academic authority nor to heed a minimum etiquette in polemics? I was well aware of the existence of that kind of self-hating nazi-loving persons around Germanic topics, but I didn't expect to meet them here.

                    Ualarauans


                    еЗПТПЧ чМБДЙНЙТ <vegorov@...> wrote: Hi Ualarauans!

                    Long citations from Vasmer are hardly a best filling for the correspondence, especially if they do not clarify the matter. A lot of water has run away in Volga and Volkhov since Vasmer's times. No doubt, we know much more than Vasmer regarding the first millennium AD. I'd like to obtain some new evidences on the Germanic past of modern Northwest Russia and East Baltic region, if anybody has them.

                    Vladimir

                    P.S. Yes, same von Braun. Nazi? Maybe, but I gather not more than, for example, his Soviet colleague Korolyov was a communist. Both were first of all gifted engineers ready to tune themselves up in order to have possibility to busy with the favorite work.


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                    Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                    Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:53 PM
                    To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos jah Thiudos


                    Hi Vladimir!

                    As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud'...
                    You seem to mistrust your colleagues at the Academy of Sciences, so I'll confine myself with Max Vasmer. He's not Russian and therefore maybe less likely to participate with that scientists' conspiracy you told of :) His Russisches Etymologisches WГrterbuch was published in 1950-1958 in Heidelberg and re-edited in 1986-1987 by Moscow "Progress" publishing house. He asserts as well (vol. 4, p. 378) that _chud'_ is a name of the Old Finns once populating regions of Pskov, Novgorod, Archangelsk and Olonets, and that the primordial meaning of the word is usually held to be "Germanen" with its origin brought back to Gothic thiuda.
                    Regarding the "Chudskoye" (Peipus) lake, it was not his idea to explain it from Gothic *thiudisks saiws "Deutscher See" as I wrongly said but that of the "Learned Estonian Society in Dorpat" (Sitzber. der Gel. Estn. Ges., 1920: 112) which he cites (ibidem), however critically. He reports also the lake's popular name Chukhonskoye ozero.
                    Here I'd like to adduce another source. It is Russian-Estonian dictionary (Wene-Eesti SИnaraamat. - Jurjew (Tartu): K. A. Raag'i kirjastus, 1904), p. 1015, where Russ. _chukhna_ is defined as follows: "so Russians call in general Finnish-related peoples of the Baltic Sea region - Estonians, Finns and others, including those Finns living around St.-Petersburg" (nИnda nimetawad wenelased ШleШldse LДДnemere-ДДrseid Soomesugu rahwaid - eestlasi, soomlasi j.t., iseДranis aga Peterburi Шmber asuwaid soomlasi); hence _chukhonets_ M., _chukhonka_ F. "Finn, Estonian" (soomlane, eestlane); _chukhonski_ Adj. "Finnish, Estonian" (Soome-, Eesti-). With regard to _chukhna_ being a debased form of _chud'_, it wouldn't look very convincing to assume that these semantics in spoken Russian could have resulted from a suspected historic prejudice in Russian scientific circles. It seems much more probable that this meaning has been retained in vulgo since the times of the first contacts
                    between the Slavs and the Finns in this region.
                    Incidentally, Vasmer denies a Finnish etymology for "Volga" (vol. 1, p. 336-7) leading it together with Czech Vlha (the Elbe basin) and Polish Wilga (the Vistula basin) back to PSl. *Vilga (reduced -i-), cognate to OChSl _vlaga_ "moisture" (different ablaut stages) and words of other IE languages with similar meanings. It's not Volga but Vologda which comes from VepsД vЕuged (< *valkeТa), Fin. valkea, Est. valge "white" (p. 340)
                    Regarding that RA of Ptolemy, it was not my idea of connecting it with Avestan Rangha and Sanskrit Rasa but Vasmer's (it just remained nameless in my memory after reading it some time ago). Looking at Mordvin names of Volga - Rav, Ravo, Rava (ibidem) - one could really suppose some Gothic mediating form like *Rahva or *Rawi... Btw. Tatars use Kara Idyl ("black Itil") alongside with Idyl alone for Volga as distinguished from Ak Idyl "Kama" or "Belaya" (ibidem).
                    To finish with Vasmer, on p. 346 he tells of Swedish еlhava "Volkhov river" attested in a 16th century record < Fin. Olhavanjoki, Olhava.

                    Ualarauans

                    P.S. Didn't that nazi think-tank von Braun work for the U. S. after 1945?


                    Еърфрю Юнвдкокф wrote:
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                  • llama_nom
                    ... you ... are ... form ... which ... Fredrik, I just came across a paper about the origin of the tones used in modern Scandinavian languages [
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 28, 2006
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                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:

                      > Now when talking bout pronunciation I must ask about something I
                      > really dont know anything about, and therefor not any terminology.
                      > It is about tones.
                      >
                      > Coz I dont know any names for tones I try to describe it and hope
                      you
                      > know enough swedish to understand me :)
                      >
                      > In swedish there are these two word "stället" and "stället" which
                      are
                      > pronounced almost the same. The only difference is the tones.
                      > Both words are singular definite forms and the first is definite
                      form
                      > of "ställ" ( = rack) and the second of "ställe" ( = place).
                      >
                      > If you know the difference of the tones in these definite forms
                      which
                      > one is used in gothic.
                      > I think I pronounce gothic very much as how it would be in swedish,
                      > with the tones I mean.


                      Fredrik, I just came across a paper about the origin of the tones used
                      in modern Scandinavian languages [
                      http://www.hum.uit.no/a/bye/Papers/pitch-accent-kluw.pdf ]. I haven't
                      read it all yet, but it discusses two theories. In one the two
                      lexical tone patterns could go back to c. 800, in the other theory to
                      c. 1000 or soon after. The paper argues in favour of the later date.
                      The reason that the system isn't thought to be earlier than this is
                      that the distinction in the modern Scandinavian languages corresponds
                      to the syllabic pattern of the word in Old Norse: words with one
                      syllable in Old Norse gave rise to one tone pattern, words with more
                      syllables to the other (the suffixed definite article isn't counted,
                      so words that had one syllable in Old Norse + the definite article
                      still have the tone of one syllable words). But in the 4th c. North
                      Germanic still had many unstressed syllables that had been lost by
                      800-1000, so the different syllabic structures which correspond to the
                      different tones had yet to emerge at the time when the Gothic bible
                      was translated. Although Gothic had lost a few more of these
                      unstressed syllables than North Germanic at this time (Go. hunds : NG
                      hundaz), it still didn't have exactly the same syllabic patterns as
                      Old Norse (Go. sunus : ON sonr/sunr), so presumably it didn't have
                      exactly the same tone distinction found nowadays in Norway and Sweden.
                      Of course Gothic might have distinguished words by tone using a
                      system of its own similar to the one that appeared later in
                      Scandinavia, or maybe it didn't. We'll probably never know.

                      Llama Nom
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