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  • dciurchea
    I thank you for reading my post. The first (visible) benefit of analysis of gothic language is the link and relationship with today s German. Thus one may
    Message 1 of 5 , May 14, 2006
      I thank you for reading my post. The first (visible) benefit of analysis
      of 'gothic' language is the link and relationship with today's German.
      Thus one may hope that other antic data of known origin may be debugged
      by using today's fonems also. Since I can't post pictures and docs in
      the Files folder, in the following days I shall develop posts with
      pictures in my personal forum
      <http://duci.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~72.asp-now> in romanian will be
      doubbed as 'the gothic connection'). I invite you to see the arguments
      and pictures there.

      I am not recomposing old Thracian, but using local fonems; my point is

      a) in Transylvania (antic Dacia - not all Romania) the person's family
      name is formed as a derivate of the village;

      b) toponimics are conserved through time by shepherds

      This is a way to order some hystorical data and to identify some useful

      With respect to the Dacian's (Getic) religion little is known, except
      for Zalmoxis (the chief god) and Kogaion (the sacred mountain).
      Trajan's Column presents Dacians with some boxes in hand, which should
      be the 'ancestor's relics boxes' - essential in christianism and the
      basics of gothic ancestry. The cult of ancestors should have been very
      powerfull. Still today the orhodoxian Church is organising 6-7 days of
      pilgrimage to the saint remains of local saints. The Dacians chiefs had
      a phrygian cap-indicating again their thracian origin.

      I shall post an exercept of the classics: Strabo ("Getae were
      Thracians") and Jordannes ( "Getae and Gepidae are kinsmen"). Please
      observe the cathegory of Getae 'basileians', which are exactly the
      dacians-with huge gold mines- conquered by Trajan in 106AD.

      The Geography of Strabo , published in the Loeb Classical Library, 1924
      , Book VII, Chapter 3

      2 Now the Greeks used to suppose that the Getae were Thracians; and the
      Getae lived on either side the Ister, as did also the Mysi, these also
      being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi;
      from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians
      and the Phrygians and Trojans. And the Phrygians themselves are
      Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians,
      the Medobithynians,59 the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think,
      also the Mariandynians.

      Folklore (from N. Savescu "Noi nu suntem urmasii Romei"):

      Macedonean Dialect Romanian
      Cari-n'i bati, noaptea Cine-mi bate noaptea
      La firida mea, moi? La fereastra mea, mai?
      Io huia, msata Marioara Eu sunt, frumoasa Marioara
      Nu-n'i ti-aspirea, moi. Nu te speria, mai.
      Scoal aprond'i lampa Scoala de-aprinde lampa
      S-ti vedua fata ta, Sa-ti vad fata ta
      Fata ta tea alb-arosi Fata ta cea alb`-rosie
      Ca trandafila. Ca de trandafir.

      See also:

      12 But there is also another division of the country which has endured
      from early times, for some of the people are called Daci, whereas others
      are called Getae — Getae, those who incline towards the Pontus and
      the east, and Daci, those who incline in the opposite direction towards
      Germany and the sources of the Ister. The Daci, I think, were called
      Daï in early times; whence the slave names "Geta" and "Daüs"156
      which prevailed among the Attic people; for this is more probable than
      that "Daüs" is from those Scythians who are called "Daae," for they
      live far away in the neighbourhood of Hyrcania, and it is not reasonable
      to suppose that slaves were brought into Attica from there…
      13. … Be that as it may, although the Getae and Daci once attained
      to very great power, so that they actually could send forth an
      expedition of two hundred thousand men, they now find themselves reduced
      to as few as forty thousand, and they have come close to the point of
      yielding obedience to the Romans, though as yet they are not absolutely
      submissive, because of the hopes which they base on the Germans, who are
      enemies to the Romans.
      17 … seaboard between the Borysthenes and the Ister consists,
      first, of the Desert of the Getae; Today Dobrudja
      then the country of the Tyregetans;  Today Moldavia and Muntenia
      and after it the country of the Iazygian Sarmatians  Today North
      and East Transylvania
      and that of the people called the Basileians  Today Banat and The
      East Carpathians and The Somes Valley, around the gold mines = Dacia =
      what Trajan Conquered in 106AD. See the (basileus) adoration of Trajan
      on the Column
      and that of the Urgi, who in general are nomads,
      though a few are interested also in farming; these people, it is said,
      dwell also along the Ister, often on both sides. In the interior dwell,
      first, those Bastarnians whose country borders on that of the Tyregetans
      and Germans — they also being, one might say, of Germanic stock; and
      they are divided up into several tribes, for a part of them are called
      Atmoni and Sidoni, while those who took possession of Peuce, the island
      in the Ister, are called "Peucini," whereas the "Roxolani" (the most
      northerly of them all) roam the plains between the Tanaïs and the
      Borysthenes. In fact, the whole country towards the north from Germany
      as far as the Caspian Sea is, so far as we know it, a plain, but whether
      any people dwell beyond the Roxolani we do not know. Now the Roxolani,
      under the leadership of Tasius, carried on war even with the generals of
      Mithridates Eupator; they came for the purpose of assisting Palacus, the
      son of Scilurus, as his allies, and they had the reputation of being
      warlike; ..……..

      Jordannes (The Project Gutenberg eBook, The Origin and Deeds of the
      Goths, by Jordanes, Translated by Charles C. Mierow):

      XVII ........ Should you ask how the Getae and Gepidae are kinsmen, I
      can tell you in a few words. You surely remember that in the beginning I
      said the Goths went forth from the bosom of the island of Scandza with
      Berig, their king, sailing in only three ships toward the hither shore
      of Ocean, namely to Gothiscandza. One of these three ships proved to be
      slower than the others, as is usually the case, and thus is said to have
      given the tribe their name, for in their language _gepanta_ means slow.
      Hence it came to pass that gradually and by corruption the name Gepidae
      was coined for them by way of reproach. For undoubtedly they too trace
      their origin from the stock of the Goths, but because, as I have said,
      _gepanta_ means something slow and stolid, the word Gepidae arose as a
      gratuitous name of reproach. I do not believe this is very far wrong,
      for they are slow of thought and too sluggish for quick movement of
      their bodies.

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com> ,
      Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:
      > dciurchea <dciurchea@...> wrote:
      > > I am not in agreement nor with Romanian historians, nor with
      > Hungarian historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery.
      > Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german.
      > Dear Ciurchea, I wonder is there any strong reason to so
      unconditionally associate Old Thracian and today's Romanian which is
      all Romance and no way other? It is Albanian (Shqiptar), I guess, which
      may nowadays claim (linguistically) an Illyro-Thracian origin. Were
      Dacians Thracian? Anyway, to say Romanians are pure descendants of them
      would mean to ignore the Roman, Greek, Slavic, Magyar etc. inputs. Even
      East-Germanic tribes paid their contribution, as is seen from a number
      of Gothic loanwords in today's Romanian (I mean Gothic in broader
      sense – they can be Gepidic as well). The Gut-thiuda of the Calendar
      was most likely situated north of the Danube (ripa Gothica of
      contemporary historiographs) in what is now Muntenia. The word that the
      Goths seemingly used to refer to the natives of the land was *Walhos M.
      –a Pl., which is common Germanic name of Celtic and Romance peoples
      (up to NE Wales and NHG welsch) and indicates pretty well that this
      post-Dacian population had
      > been already Romanized after less than 200 years of the Imperial
      Rule. Being borrowed by succeeding Slavs as vlakhu (see also BLACOI in
      medieval Byzantine sources) it produced Walachia which was changed to
      Romania as a name of the land only in the 19th century, perhaps to
      emphasize the Roman heritage after gaining the independence. If I error
      please correct me.
      > > The Gepid fonem in Jordannes(Ce piz... or Ce pid.. in Romanian ) is
      > actuall an insult, "what the heck" in Romanian, addressed by the two
      > brothers to the third, more slow.
      > Again, is this phrase Romanian or reconstructed Thracian? (and what
      do we know then about Old-Thracian?) If it is Modern Romanian, how about
      the fact that Jordanes wrote in the 6th century when the East-Romance
      dialects were probably not more than a sort of vernacular not much
      different from the Vulgar Latin spoken throughout the Empire? I can
      easily mistake here since I'm not an expert in Romanics and at any
      rate I hope there's nothing offensive in what I've said. And how
      would you explain then the evidence of OE which has Gifdas?
      > This etymologizing cannot help reminding of Isidor and his deriving
      Gepids as "Gipedes" from Lat. pes, pedis with the meaning
      "those preferring to walk on foot" (and therefore always slow?)
      or something like that. It shows well that the name of Gepids was and
      still is an enigma.
      > The real crux about this name, I guess, is this –p- which is
      unanimously fixed by Roman and Greek writers while the OE form presumes
      Gothic –b-. Be it *Gibidos or *Gabideis – why > Gepides et sim.?
      And the form Gepedoios in Getica – doesn't it speak in favor of
      Gothic –p-?
      > > This is important as I see the
      > gothic mythology derived from the Getic customs, i.e. the mythology
      > of my ancestors, now lost.
      > That's interesting. Is there any evidence for it? And how much is
      known of what the Goths REALLY believed in, besides the ethnogenetic
      myth around *Gauts (I'm sorry still failing to get to Ingemar
      Nordgren's book dealing with the subject). Of cause we can
      reconstruct names like *Wodans, *Thunr(u)s, *Friddi and the like, but
      were they familiar to Goths? Their wanderings and intercourse with many
      non-Germanic tribes and cultures must have left a definite stamp on
      their beliefs. I read somewhere that those of them who had wandered deep
      into Hellas started to adore its old pagan altars rather than become
      Christian, it being their way to get naturalized in the new homeland.
      Does anybody know something about it?
      > Hlutramma hairtin
      > Walahrabns
      > Send instant messages to your online friends
      http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com <http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>
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