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Aiwropais Ahvos

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  • ualarauans
    ... devoicing rule (Auslautsverhärtung) doesn t apply when b , g , d follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular would be *Albs.
    Message 1 of 27 , May 14, 2006
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      In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
      > the final
      devoicing rule (Auslautsverhärtung) doesn't apply when 'b', 'g', 'd'
      follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
      would be *Albs.

      Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce this:
      [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic –b- I like most to
      have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We have
      Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like Liuva,
      Erelieva etc., but what about –b- in the position you described,
      i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS – leaning
      on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as
      Silva... Does the rule work only when –b- stands between two
      consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it could be
      again a question of chronology.
      Talking about rivers I think we should not at once translate or
      transliterate their present name, but to look first if there's any
      possible evidence of how the river was called at the time the actual
      Goths could reach, or hear of, it.
      For example, French Seine was Lat.-Celt. Sequana. Was it still so in
      the 5th century when Alareiks sa Fruma and his Visigoths came first
      to the West? Or maybe it was already some compromise late-Latin /
      early-Romance form (*Seghwana?) which could be adopted by them
      undergoing some folk-etymological changes? Or perhaps there had been
      a West-Germanic name of the river which the Goths received from
      their Frankish and Alemannic cousins and rivals? I'm tempted to call
      it *Saihvana F. –o (with a consonant shift), but firstly, if my
      Latin dictionary doesn't lie, the –e- in Sequana was a long one;
      secondly, the time of the shift was long over; and, thirdly, wasu so
      ahva bi sunjai SAIHVANA? (was this river really SEEN by them?). So,
      *Seqana, *Se(g)wana or something like?
      Here's another question. As you know continental Gaulish was mostly
      a p-Celtic language (i.e. every PIE kw- turned to p- unlike q-
      Celtic). The PIE stem *sekw- "to follow", represented by Lat. sequor
      and Goth. saihvan (lit. "to follow with the eyes"), as it is
      commonly held, was additionally borrowed by Goths from some p-Celtic
      dialect as siponeis "a disciple" < "a follower". Is Sequana of the
      same family? And why not *Sepana? I see it's Gothic not "Celtic"
      list, but if this name belongs to the same stem, it could perhaps be
      possible to postulate some parallel, not borrowed, form in Germanic
      and, thus, Gothic.
      Let's travel over to another side of Europe and consider Volga. It
      seems to me very probable that the Goths, this time the Ostrogoths,
      had all chances to see it or at least to know about it at the time
      of Ermanaricus' Greater Gothic Reich (((smile))). Maybe the trace of
      it is ON Dylgja (Hlöðskviða 26, 28) < Goth. *Dulgjo F. –on, which
      could be a phonetically correct borrowing of a supposed Old Slavic
      alternative name *Dlgaja (l is vocalic), lit. "the long (river)".
      The actual Russian Volga is sometimes supposed to be borrowed from
      Baltic *Ilga with the same meaning ("long"). Well, that seems rather
      complicated... As a variant we could use a partly etymologized
      loanword from Russian like *Wulgi F. –jo (cf. ON ylgr "she-wolf").
      Ualarauans
    • llama_nom
      ... when b , g , d ... to ... have ... leaning ... be ... The final devoicing is prevented whenever b , d , g come after another consonant. Although I
      Message 2 of 27 , May 14, 2006
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
        >
        > In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
        > > the final
        > devoicing rule (Auslautsverhärtung) doesn't apply
        when 'b', 'g', 'd'
        > follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
        > would be *Albs.
        >
        > Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce this:
        > [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic –b- I like most
        to
        > have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We
        have
        > Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like Liuva,
        > Erelieva etc., but what about –b- in the position you described,
        > i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS –
        leaning
        > on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as
        > Silva... Does the rule work only when –b- stands between two
        > consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it could
        be
        > again a question of chronology.

        The final devoicing is prevented whenever 'b', 'd', 'g' come after
        another consonant. Although I don't know any examples of the
        combination 'lbs', I think it can be assumed to have existed on the
        basis of words like 'skulds', 'gaþaurbs', 'gazds'.

        According to Marchand, the Greek letter beta was a voiced bilabial
        fricative in the 4th c. But a voiced bilabial plosive after [m]?
        The Gothic 'b' is modelled on this letter and used to transcribe
        beta in names. Go. naubaimbair for Lat. november is consistent with
        the possibility that Go. 'b' was a fricative between vowels. To be
        more cautious, we can probably assume at least that Go. 'b' was the
        closest thing to Lat. 'v' at the time the word was borrowed,
        although we can't tell whether they were an exact match. If Gothic
        had no inervocalic [v], a bilabial fricative [B] may have been
        substituted. If Gothic had neither intervocalic [v] nor [B], the
        closest match may have been a plosive, perhaps [b] or even [p]
        (depending on how Go. /b/ and /p/ were distinguished).

        Latin transcriptions of Gothic names aren't very useful for this
        question, since medial 'b' and 'v' had fell together as a fricative
        in Vulgar Latin. I don't know if this was generally bilabial (as
        still in the Iberian peninsula) or had become labio-dental (as in
        other modern Romance languages). Presumably Gk. SILOUANOS reflects
        the ealier Latin pronunciation of 'v' as [w]. Either way, I think
        unfortunately we have to discount the evidence of spellings like
        Liuva (*Liuba), Erelieva (*Haíru-liuba?), Recciverga (?-*baírga).
        Similarly, the contraction of Go. *Sigis- to Lat. and Romance sis-
        can be explained in terms of Latin/Romance sound changes, cf. Lat.
        Arge- for Go. *Harja-. Still, it might be reasonable to exclude a
        voiceless stop for Go. intervocalic 'g', cf. the transcription of
        Langobardic Sikenolf.

        Initial 'b' seems not to be confused, but consistently spelt 'b', as
        far as I know, in Latin transcriptions of Gothic names. This
        suggests that initially 'b' was a stop, something like [b] in
        Gothic. This would agree with the treatment of Gothic initial 'g'
        and 'd', which are transcribed as Latin 'g' or 'c', on the one hand,
        and 'd' on the other.

        Conclusion so far. Comparison with other Germanic languages points
        to a phoneme /b/ realised as a voiced bilabial fricative [B] between
        vowels in Pre-Gothic, but [b] after a nasal [m]. The Latin evidence
        suggests that /b/ was also realised [b] in Gothic initially.
        Internal evidence (the regular alternation 'b' : 'f') suggests that
        some sound change affected /b/ after other consonants which
        prevented it in these positions from undergoing a later sound
        change, the final devoicing of [B]. This is usually considered to
        have been a change of Consonant + [B] > Consonant + [b]. This idea
        has the advantage of symmetry, at least. Alternatively it's been
        proposed that final devoicing was prevented by some other mechanism,
        e.g. the voiced quality of the preceding consonant.

        Short answer. At the moment I'd say *Albs [alps], *Alb [alb], and
        Naubaimber ["nOBEmbEr], rabbei ["rab:i:], bindan ["bindan], bnauan
        ["bnO:.an] or maybe ["bnO.an]. Using a full stop to represent a
        hiatus or syllable break. I've changed a lot of my ideas about
        Gothic pronunciation recently after the reading I've been doing, and
        am liable to change them further if I find a better explanation.
      • Егоров Владимир
        Hi Ualarauans! With the long river Volga there are two aberrations, both spatial and temporal. The name Volga related initially only to the upper part of the
        Message 3 of 27 , May 14, 2006
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          Hi Ualarauans!

          With the "long river" Volga there are two aberrations,
          both spatial and temporal. The name Volga related initially
          only to the upper part of the river and was etymologically
          close to the name of another river of that region Volhov.
          However, the etymology is not defined exactly. The most
          probable supposition is a Finnish word with meaning moisture,
          which was also borrowed by Russian as _vlaga_. Extension of
          the name Volga to the downer river named earlier Itil took
          place somewhere in the 16-17 centuries. Hermanaricus and his
          subjects had to be very sagacious to foreknow this for
          thousand years ahead. Anyhow, the origin of the name Volga
          is not Slavic.

          Btw. I seem _Albs_ should be pronounced [alfs] with declension
          changes to [alvis] etc.

          Regards,
          Vladimir


          -----Original Message-----
          From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
          Behalf Of ualarauans
          Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:31 AM
          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos


          In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
          > the final
          devoicing rule (Auslautsverhдrtung) doesn't apply when 'b', 'g', 'd'
          follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
          would be *Albs.

          Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce this:
          [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic -b- I like most to
          have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We have
          Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like Liuva,
          Erelieva etc., but what about -b- in the position you described,
          i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS - leaning
          on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as
          Silva... Does the rule work only when -b- stands between two
          consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it could be
          again a question of chronology.
          Talking about rivers I think we should not at once translate or
          transliterate their present name, but to look first if there's any
          possible evidence of how the river was called at the time the actual
          Goths could reach, or hear of, it.
          For example, French Seine was Lat.-Celt. Sequana. Was it still so in
          the 5th century when Alareiks sa Fruma and his Visigoths came first
          to the West? Or maybe it was already some compromise late-Latin /
          early-Romance form (*Seghwana?) which could be adopted by them
          undergoing some folk-etymological changes? Or perhaps there had been
          a West-Germanic name of the river which the Goths received from
          their Frankish and Alemannic cousins and rivals? I'm tempted to call
          it *Saihvana F. -o (with a consonant shift), but firstly, if my
          Latin dictionary doesn't lie, the -e- in Sequana was a long one;
          secondly, the time of the shift was long over; and, thirdly, wasu so
          ahva bi sunjai SAIHVANA? (was this river really SEEN by them?). So,
          *Seqana, *Se(g)wana or something like?
          Here's another question. As you know continental Gaulish was mostly
          a p-Celtic language (i.e. every PIE kw- turned to p- unlike q-
          Celtic). The PIE stem *sekw- "to follow", represented by Lat. sequor
          and Goth. saihvan (lit. "to follow with the eyes"), as it is
          commonly held, was additionally borrowed by Goths from some p-Celtic
          dialect as siponeis "a disciple" < "a follower". Is Sequana of the
          same family? And why not *Sepana? I see it's Gothic not "Celtic"
          list, but if this name belongs to the same stem, it could perhaps be
          possible to postulate some parallel, not borrowed, form in Germanic
          and, thus, Gothic.
          Let's travel over to another side of Europe and consider Volga. It
          seems to me very probable that the Goths, this time the Ostrogoths,
          had all chances to see it or at least to know about it at the time
          of Ermanaricus' Greater Gothic Reich (((smile))). Maybe the trace of
          it is ON Dylgja (Hlöðskviða 26, 28) < Goth. *Dulgjo F. -on, which
          could be a phonetically correct borrowing of a supposed Old Slavic
          alternative name *Dlgaja (l is vocalic), lit. "the long (river)".
          The actual Russian Volga is sometimes supposed to be borrowed from
          Baltic *Ilga with the same meaning ("long"). Well, that seems rather
          complicated... As a variant we could use a partly etymologized
          loanword from Russian like *Wulgi F. -jo (cf. ON ylgr "she-wolf").
          Ualarauans







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        • Fredrik
          Would you say similar rules could go for d as well? Like d in hunds doesnt become th (like hunths), becoz of it follows a consonant. Initally is is [d] and
          Message 4 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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            Would you say similar rules could go for d as well?
            Like d in hunds doesnt become th (like hunths), becoz of it follows a
            consonant. Initally is is [d] and intervocalic like [D].
            If b is [p] in albs, (becoz of ending in s?) then d in hunds should
            be [t]?
            And what about g? Is it [g] initially, [G] intervocalic and [k] in
            endings before s?


            Now when talking bout pronunciation I must ask about something I
            really dont know anything about, and therefor not any terminology.
            It is about tones.

            Coz I dont know any names for tones I try to describe it and hope you
            know enough swedish to understand me :)

            In swedish there are these two word "stället" and "stället" which are
            pronounced almost the same. The only difference is the tones.
            Both words are singular definite forms and the first is definite form
            of "ställ" ( = rack) and the second of "ställe" ( = place).

            If you know the difference of the tones in these definite forms which
            one is used in gothic.
            I think I pronounce gothic very much as how it would be in swedish,
            with the tones I mean.


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@> wrote:
            > >
            > > In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
            > > > the final
            > > devoicing rule (Auslautsverhärtung) doesn't apply
            > when 'b', 'g', 'd'
            > > follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
            > > would be *Albs.
            > >
            > > Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce this:
            > > [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic –b- I like most
            > to
            > > have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We
            > have
            > > Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like
            Liuva,
            > > Erelieva etc., but what about –b- in the position you described,
            > > i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS –
            > leaning
            > > on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as
            > > Silva... Does the rule work only when –b- stands between two
            > > consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it could
            > be
            > > again a question of chronology.
            >
            > The final devoicing is prevented whenever 'b', 'd', 'g' come after
            > another consonant. Although I don't know any examples of the
            > combination 'lbs', I think it can be assumed to have existed on the
            > basis of words like 'skulds', 'gaþaurbs', 'gazds'.
            >
            > According to Marchand, the Greek letter beta was a voiced bilabial
            > fricative in the 4th c. But a voiced bilabial plosive after [m]?
            > The Gothic 'b' is modelled on this letter and used to transcribe
            > beta in names. Go. naubaimbair for Lat. november is consistent
            with
            > the possibility that Go. 'b' was a fricative between vowels. To be
            > more cautious, we can probably assume at least that Go. 'b' was the
            > closest thing to Lat. 'v' at the time the word was borrowed,
            > although we can't tell whether they were an exact match. If Gothic
            > had no inervocalic [v], a bilabial fricative [B] may have been
            > substituted. If Gothic had neither intervocalic [v] nor [B], the
            > closest match may have been a plosive, perhaps [b] or even [p]
            > (depending on how Go. /b/ and /p/ were distinguished).
            >
            > Latin transcriptions of Gothic names aren't very useful for this
            > question, since medial 'b' and 'v' had fell together as a fricative
            > in Vulgar Latin. I don't know if this was generally bilabial (as
            > still in the Iberian peninsula) or had become labio-dental (as in
            > other modern Romance languages). Presumably Gk. SILOUANOS reflects
            > the ealier Latin pronunciation of 'v' as [w]. Either way, I think
            > unfortunately we have to discount the evidence of spellings like
            > Liuva (*Liuba), Erelieva (*Haíru-liuba?), Recciverga (?-*baírga).
            > Similarly, the contraction of Go. *Sigis- to Lat. and Romance sis-
            > can be explained in terms of Latin/Romance sound changes, cf. Lat.
            > Arge- for Go. *Harja-. Still, it might be reasonable to exclude a
            > voiceless stop for Go. intervocalic 'g', cf. the transcription of
            > Langobardic Sikenolf.
            >
            > Initial 'b' seems not to be confused, but consistently spelt 'b',
            as
            > far as I know, in Latin transcriptions of Gothic names. This
            > suggests that initially 'b' was a stop, something like [b] in
            > Gothic. This would agree with the treatment of Gothic initial 'g'
            > and 'd', which are transcribed as Latin 'g' or 'c', on the one
            hand,
            > and 'd' on the other.
            >
            > Conclusion so far. Comparison with other Germanic languages points
            > to a phoneme /b/ realised as a voiced bilabial fricative [B]
            between
            > vowels in Pre-Gothic, but [b] after a nasal [m]. The Latin
            evidence
            > suggests that /b/ was also realised [b] in Gothic initially.
            > Internal evidence (the regular alternation 'b' : 'f') suggests that
            > some sound change affected /b/ after other consonants which
            > prevented it in these positions from undergoing a later sound
            > change, the final devoicing of [B]. This is usually considered to
            > have been a change of Consonant + [B] > Consonant + [b]. This idea
            > has the advantage of symmetry, at least. Alternatively it's been
            > proposed that final devoicing was prevented by some other
            mechanism,
            > e.g. the voiced quality of the preceding consonant.
            >
            > Short answer. At the moment I'd say *Albs [alps], *Alb [alb], and
            > Naubaimber ["nOBEmbEr], rabbei ["rab:i:], bindan ["bindan], bnauan
            > ["bnO:.an] or maybe ["bnO.an]. Using a full stop to represent a
            > hiatus or syllable break. I've changed a lot of my ideas about
            > Gothic pronunciation recently after the reading I've been doing,
            and
            > am liable to change them further if I find a better explanation.
            >
          • Guenther Ramm
            Hails, Vladimir! Thanks a lot for your correction! I feel defeated at the “Long River” :) The form Itil as far as I know is Turkic (?) and therefore also
            Message 5 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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              Hails, Vladimir!
              Thanks a lot for your correction! I feel defeated at the “Long River” :)
              The form Itil as far as I know is Turkic (?) and therefore also too late to get into Gothic. What was the population of the Lower Volga basin in the 3rd – 4th centuries? Some place Alans east of Ostrogoths up to the time of the Hunnish invasion – could not they intermediate between whatever name of Volga and Ermanaricus’ “sagacious mapmakers”? You know there’s the people of the Ossets in North Caucasus which are direct linguistic descendants of East Alans and which are said to still keep in their epics reminiscences of their fights with a people “GUT”. Does anybody know how they call Volga? The names of Don, Dnepr and Dnestr (and maybe Danube) at least, seem to come from North-Iranian, i.e. Scytho-Sarmatian and Alanic speech, and, note, today’s Ossetic _don_ means just “river” or “water”. This river row could be Gothic *Danus, *Danaprus, *Danastrus (in fact there’s no sure evidence of u-stems for any of them, Jordanes has Danaper, Danaster and similarly other writers of
              the time, IE proto-form *danu- could not be of any effect here, unless we presume there were “sagacious Gothic linguists” at work as well :)
              Still, I’d like *Dulgjo to be used for any of the East-European rivers and surely there’s a lot of scholarly literature on the Eddic Dylgja and the precise localization of that legendary battle between Angantyr and Hloedhr. I thought they fought (I mean the proto-event of the saga) somewhere between Don and Volga, on the Eastern frontier of the Ostrogothic sphere, and the Goths had actually to lose that battle (ca. 375 AD). This Volga-Don “Mesopotamia” could be called there Dunheidhr, Gothic *Dunahaithi...
              I know a Finnish word valkea “white”. Is Russian vlaga not rather to be connected with NHG Wolke “cloud”, Lett. velgme “moisture” etc.? The Finnish form of Volkhov seems to look like Olhava, and that could be Gothicized into *Alhawi “a river of a sacred place” (?), of cause, without claiming to be a possible historic name (that was too far even for Ermanaricus :)
              Ualarauans

              åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@...> wrote:
              Hi Ualarauans!

              With the "long river" Volga there are two aberrations,
              both spatial and temporal. The name Volga related initially
              only to the upper part of the river and was etymologically
              close to the name of another river of that region Volhov.
              However, the etymology is not defined exactly. The most
              probable supposition is a Finnish word with meaning moisture,
              which was also borrowed by Russian as _vlaga_. Extension of
              the name Volga to the downer river named earlier Itil took
              place somewhere in the 16-17 centuries. Hermanaricus and his
              subjects had to be very sagacious to foreknow this for
              thousand years ahead. Anyhow, the origin of the name Volga
              is not Slavic.

              Btw. I seem _Albs_ should be pronounced [alfs] with declension
              changes to [alvis] etc.

              Regards,
              Vladimir


              -----Original Message-----
              From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
              Behalf Of ualarauans
              Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:31 AM
              To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos


              In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
              > the final
              devoicing rule (AuslautsverhÄrtung) doesn't apply when 'b', 'g', 'd'
              follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
              would be *Albs.

              Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce this:
              [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic -b- I like most to
              have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We have
              Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like Liuva,
              Erelieva etc., but what about -b- in the position you described,
              i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS - leaning
              on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as
              Silva... Does the rule work only when -b- stands between two
              consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it could be
              again a question of chronology.
              Talking about rivers I think we should not at once translate or
              transliterate their present name, but to look first if there's any
              possible evidence of how the river was called at the time the actual
              Goths could reach, or hear of, it.
              For example, French Seine was Lat.-Celt. Sequana. Was it still so in
              the 5th century when Alareiks sa Fruma and his Visigoths came first
              to the West? Or maybe it was already some compromise late-Latin /
              early-Romance form (*Seghwana?) which could be adopted by them
              undergoing some folk-etymological changes? Or perhaps there had been
              a West-Germanic name of the river which the Goths received from
              their Frankish and Alemannic cousins and rivals? I'm tempted to call
              it *Saihvana F. -o (with a consonant shift), but firstly, if my
              Latin dictionary doesn't lie, the -e- in Sequana was a long one;
              secondly, the time of the shift was long over; and, thirdly, wasu so
              ahva bi sunjai SAIHVANA? (was this river really SEEN by them?). So,
              *Seqana, *Se(g)wana or something like?
              Here's another question. As you know continental Gaulish was mostly
              a p-Celtic language (i.e. every PIE kw- turned to p- unlike q-
              Celtic). The PIE stem *sekw- "to follow", represented by Lat. sequor
              and Goth. saihvan (lit. "to follow with the eyes"), as it is
              commonly held, was additionally borrowed by Goths from some p-Celtic
              dialect as siponeis "a disciple" < "a follower". Is Sequana of the
              same family? And why not *Sepana? I see it's Gothic not "Celtic"
              list, but if this name belongs to the same stem, it could perhaps be
              possible to postulate some parallel, not borrowed, form in Germanic
              and, thus, Gothic.
              Let's travel over to another side of Europe and consider Volga. It
              seems to me very probable that the Goths, this time the Ostrogoths,
              had all chances to see it or at least to know about it at the time
              of Ermanaricus' Greater Gothic Reich (((smile))). Maybe the trace of
              it is ON Dylgja (Hlöðskviða 26, 28) < Goth. *Dulgjo F. -on, which
              could be a phonetically correct borrowing of a supposed Old Slavic
              alternative name *Dlgaja (l is vocalic), lit. "the long (river)".
              The actual Russian Volga is sometimes supposed to be borrowed from
              Baltic *Ilga with the same meaning ("long"). Well, that seems rather
              complicated... As a variant we could use a partly etymologized
              loanword from Russian like *Wulgi F. -jo (cf. ON ylgr "she-wolf").
              Ualarauans







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            • Fredrik
              Does the name bulgar has anything to do with the river name Volga? If I remember right the bulgars came from volga. If this is so, when did the bulgars occur
              Message 6 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                Does the name bulgar has anything to do with the river name Volga?
                If I remember right the bulgars came from volga.
                If this is so, when did the bulgars occur in history? At the time of
                the goths, and did the bulgars and goths ever seen eachother?
                What would Bulgaria be in gothic?
                (One etymology of bulgar is turkic bulgha = sable.)


                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hails, Vladimir!
                > Thanks a lot for your correction! I feel defeated at the "Long
                River" :)
                > The form Itil as far as I know is Turkic (?) and therefore also
                too late to get into Gothic. What was the population of the Lower
                Volga basin in the 3rd – 4th centuries? Some place Alans east of
                Ostrogoths up to the time of the Hunnish invasion – could not they
                intermediate between whatever name of Volga and
                Ermanaricus' "sagacious mapmakers"? You know there's the people of
                the Ossets in North Caucasus which are direct linguistic descendants
                of East Alans and which are said to still keep in their epics
                reminiscences of their fights with a people "GUT". Does anybody know
                how they call Volga? The names of Don, Dnepr and Dnestr (and maybe
                Danube) at least, seem to come from North-Iranian, i.e. Scytho-
                Sarmatian and Alanic speech, and, note, today's Ossetic _don_ means
                just "river" or "water". This river row could be Gothic *Danus,
                *Danaprus, *Danastrus (in fact there's no sure evidence of u-stems
                for any of them, Jordanes has Danaper, Danaster and similarly other
                writers of
                > the time, IE proto-form *danu- could not be of any effect here,
                unless we presume there were "sagacious Gothic linguists" at work as
                well :)
                > Still, I'd like *Dulgjo to be used for any of the East-European
                rivers and surely there's a lot of scholarly literature on the Eddic
                Dylgja and the precise localization of that legendary battle between
                Angantyr and Hloedhr. I thought they fought (I mean the proto-event
                of the saga) somewhere between Don and Volga, on the Eastern frontier
                of the Ostrogothic sphere, and the Goths had actually to lose that
                battle (ca. 375 AD). This Volga-Don "Mesopotamia" could be called
                there Dunheidhr, Gothic *Dunahaithi...
                > I know a Finnish word valkea "white". Is Russian vlaga not rather
                to be connected with NHG Wolke "cloud", Lett. velgme "moisture" etc.?
                The Finnish form of Volkhov seems to look like Olhava, and that could
                be Gothicized into *Alhawi "a river of a sacred place" (?), of cause,
                without claiming to be a possible historic name (that was too far
                even for Ermanaricus :)
                > Ualarauans
                >
                > åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@...> wrote:
                > Hi Ualarauans!
                >
                > With the "long river" Volga there are two aberrations,
                > both spatial and temporal. The name Volga related initially
                > only to the upper part of the river and was etymologically
                > close to the name of another river of that region Volhov.
                > However, the etymology is not defined exactly. The most
                > probable supposition is a Finnish word with meaning moisture,
                > which was also borrowed by Russian as _vlaga_. Extension of
                > the name Volga to the downer river named earlier Itil took
                > place somewhere in the 16-17 centuries. Hermanaricus and his
                > subjects had to be very sagacious to foreknow this for
                > thousand years ahead. Anyhow, the origin of the name Volga
                > is not Slavic.
                >
                > Btw. I seem _Albs_ should be pronounced [alfs] with declension
                > changes to [alvis] etc.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Vladimir
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                > Behalf Of ualarauans
                > Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:31 AM
                > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos
                >
                >
                > In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                > > the final
                > devoicing rule (AuslautsverhÄrtung) doesn't apply when 'b', 'g', 'd'
                > follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
                > would be *Albs.
                >
                > Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce this:
                > [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic -b- I like most
                to
                > have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We have
                > Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like Liuva,
                > Erelieva etc., but what about -b- in the position you described,
                > i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS -
                leaning
                > on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as
                > Silva... Does the rule work only when -b- stands between two
                > consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it could be
                > again a question of chronology.
                > Talking about rivers I think we should not at once translate or
                > transliterate their present name, but to look first if there's any
                > possible evidence of how the river was called at the time the
                actual
                > Goths could reach, or hear of, it.
                > For example, French Seine was Lat.-Celt. Sequana. Was it still so
                in
                > the 5th century when Alareiks sa Fruma and his Visigoths came first
                > to the West? Or maybe it was already some compromise late-Latin /
                > early-Romance form (*Seghwana?) which could be adopted by them
                > undergoing some folk-etymological changes? Or perhaps there had
                been
                > a West-Germanic name of the river which the Goths received from
                > their Frankish and Alemannic cousins and rivals? I'm tempted to
                call
                > it *Saihvana F. -o (with a consonant shift), but firstly, if my
                > Latin dictionary doesn't lie, the -e- in Sequana was a long one;
                > secondly, the time of the shift was long over; and, thirdly, wasu
                so
                > ahva bi sunjai SAIHVANA? (was this river really SEEN by them?). So,
                > *Seqana, *Se(g)wana or something like?
                > Here's another question. As you know continental Gaulish was mostly
                > a p-Celtic language (i.e. every PIE kw- turned to p- unlike q-
                > Celtic). The PIE stem *sekw- "to follow", represented by Lat.
                sequor
                > and Goth. saihvan (lit. "to follow with the eyes"), as it is
                > commonly held, was additionally borrowed by Goths from some p-
                Celtic
                > dialect as siponeis "a disciple" < "a follower". Is Sequana of the
                > same family? And why not *Sepana? I see it's Gothic not "Celtic"
                > list, but if this name belongs to the same stem, it could perhaps
                be
                > possible to postulate some parallel, not borrowed, form in Germanic
                > and, thus, Gothic.
                > Let's travel over to another side of Europe and consider Volga. It
                > seems to me very probable that the Goths, this time the Ostrogoths,
                > had all chances to see it or at least to know about it at the time
                > of Ermanaricus' Greater Gothic Reich (((smile))). Maybe the trace
                of
                > it is ON Dylgja (Hlöðskviða 26, 28) < Goth. *Dulgjo F. -on, which
                > could be a phonetically correct borrowing of a supposed Old Slavic
                > alternative name *Dlgaja (l is vocalic), lit. "the long (river)".
                > The actual Russian Volga is sometimes supposed to be borrowed from
                > Baltic *Ilga with the same meaning ("long"). Well, that seems
                rather
                > complicated... As a variant we could use a partly etymologized
                > loanword from Russian like *Wulgi F. -jo (cf. ON ylgr "she-wolf").
                > Ualarauans
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Fredrik
                ... Just had some new thoughts. Maybe intervocalic g ain t [G] but [M ] instead? Would you pronounce these words smth like this?: dags [daxs] dag [dax] daga
                Message 7 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
                  >
                  Just had some new thoughts.
                  Maybe intervocalic g ain't [G] but [M\] instead?

                  Would you pronounce these words smth like this?:

                  dags [daxs]
                  dag [dax]
                  daga [daGa] or [daM\a]
                  giba [gIBa]
                  bairgs [bErks]

                  Maybe it could work if I use a little spannish pronunciation to get
                  it more right?

                  I have been thinking of a word for elk or moose.
                  If the pgmc word was *algiz then gothic would be algs [alks] right?


                  > Would you say similar rules could go for d as well?
                  > Like d in hunds doesnt become th (like hunths), becoz of it follows
                  a
                  > consonant. Initally is is [d] and intervocalic like [D].
                  > If b is [p] in albs, (becoz of ending in s?) then d in hunds should
                  > be [t]?
                  > And what about g? Is it [g] initially, [G] intervocalic and [k] in
                  > endings before s?
                  >
                  >
                  > Now when talking bout pronunciation I must ask about something I
                  > really dont know anything about, and therefor not any terminology.
                  > It is about tones.
                  >
                  > Coz I dont know any names for tones I try to describe it and hope
                  you
                  > know enough swedish to understand me :)
                  >
                  > In swedish there are these two word "stället" and "stället" which
                  are
                  > pronounced almost the same. The only difference is the tones.
                  > Both words are singular definite forms and the first is definite
                  form
                  > of "ställ" ( = rack) and the second of "ställe" ( = place).
                  >
                  > If you know the difference of the tones in these definite forms
                  which
                  > one is used in gothic.
                  > I think I pronounce gothic very much as how it would be in swedish,
                  > with the tones I mean.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                  > > > > the final
                  > > > devoicing rule (Auslautsverhärtung) doesn't apply
                  > > when 'b', 'g', 'd'
                  > > > follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative
                  singular
                  > > > would be *Albs.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce
                  this:
                  > > > [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic –b- I like
                  most
                  > > to
                  > > > have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We
                  > > have
                  > > > Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like
                  > Liuva,
                  > > > Erelieva etc., but what about –b- in the position you
                  described,
                  > > > i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS –
                  > > leaning
                  > > > on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as
                  > > > Silva... Does the rule work only when –b- stands between two
                  > > > consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it
                  could
                  > > be
                  > > > again a question of chronology.
                  > >
                  > > The final devoicing is prevented whenever 'b', 'd', 'g' come
                  after
                  > > another consonant. Although I don't know any examples of the
                  > > combination 'lbs', I think it can be assumed to have existed on
                  the
                  > > basis of words like 'skulds', 'gaþaurbs', 'gazds'.
                  > >
                  > > According to Marchand, the Greek letter beta was a voiced
                  bilabial
                  > > fricative in the 4th c. But a voiced bilabial plosive after
                  [m]?
                  > > The Gothic 'b' is modelled on this letter and used to transcribe
                  > > beta in names. Go. naubaimbair for Lat. november is consistent
                  > with
                  > > the possibility that Go. 'b' was a fricative between vowels. To
                  be
                  > > more cautious, we can probably assume at least that Go. 'b' was
                  the
                  > > closest thing to Lat. 'v' at the time the word was borrowed,
                  > > although we can't tell whether they were an exact match. If
                  Gothic
                  > > had no inervocalic [v], a bilabial fricative [B] may have been
                  > > substituted. If Gothic had neither intervocalic [v] nor [B], the
                  > > closest match may have been a plosive, perhaps [b] or even [p]
                  > > (depending on how Go. /b/ and /p/ were distinguished).
                  > >
                  > > Latin transcriptions of Gothic names aren't very useful for this
                  > > question, since medial 'b' and 'v' had fell together as a
                  fricative
                  > > in Vulgar Latin. I don't know if this was generally bilabial (as
                  > > still in the Iberian peninsula) or had become labio-dental (as in
                  > > other modern Romance languages). Presumably Gk. SILOUANOS
                  reflects
                  > > the ealier Latin pronunciation of 'v' as [w]. Either way, I
                  think
                  > > unfortunately we have to discount the evidence of spellings like
                  > > Liuva (*Liuba), Erelieva (*Haíru-liuba?), Recciverga (?-
                  *baírga).
                  > > Similarly, the contraction of Go. *Sigis- to Lat. and Romance sis-

                  > > can be explained in terms of Latin/Romance sound changes, cf.
                  Lat.
                  > > Arge- for Go. *Harja-. Still, it might be reasonable to exclude
                  a
                  > > voiceless stop for Go. intervocalic 'g', cf. the transcription of
                  > > Langobardic Sikenolf.
                  > >
                  > > Initial 'b' seems not to be confused, but consistently spelt 'b',
                  > as
                  > > far as I know, in Latin transcriptions of Gothic names. This
                  > > suggests that initially 'b' was a stop, something like [b] in
                  > > Gothic. This would agree with the treatment of Gothic
                  initial 'g'
                  > > and 'd', which are transcribed as Latin 'g' or 'c', on the one
                  > hand,
                  > > and 'd' on the other.
                  > >
                  > > Conclusion so far. Comparison with other Germanic languages
                  points
                  > > to a phoneme /b/ realised as a voiced bilabial fricative [B]
                  > between
                  > > vowels in Pre-Gothic, but [b] after a nasal [m]. The Latin
                  > evidence
                  > > suggests that /b/ was also realised [b] in Gothic initially.
                  > > Internal evidence (the regular alternation 'b' : 'f') suggests
                  that
                  > > some sound change affected /b/ after other consonants which
                  > > prevented it in these positions from undergoing a later sound
                  > > change, the final devoicing of [B]. This is usually considered
                  to
                  > > have been a change of Consonant + [B] > Consonant + [b]. This
                  idea
                  > > has the advantage of symmetry, at least. Alternatively it's been
                  > > proposed that final devoicing was prevented by some other
                  > mechanism,
                  > > e.g. the voiced quality of the preceding consonant.
                  > >
                  > > Short answer. At the moment I'd say *Albs [alps], *Alb [alb],
                  and
                  > > Naubaimber ["nOBEmbEr], rabbei ["rab:i:], bindan ["bindan],
                  bnauan
                  > > ["bnO:.an] or maybe ["bnO.an]. Using a full stop to represent a
                  > > hiatus or syllable break. I've changed a lot of my ideas about
                  > > Gothic pronunciation recently after the reading I've been doing,
                  > and
                  > > am liable to change them further if I find a better explanation.
                  > >
                  >
                • Егоров Владимир
                  Ualarauans, The name Itil was known at least since the Khazar times, as one of their capitals disposed on Volga (more exactly modern Akhtuba) was called also
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                    Ualarauans,
                    The name Itil was known at least since the Khazar times, as one of their capitals disposed on Volga (more exactly modern Akhtuba) was called also Itil. In particular, Ibn-Fadlan knew in the early 10 c. both the river and town Itil. However, origins of the name itself are veiled in obscurity, though Turkic sources are commonly accepted.
                    According to Gumilev, the Hunns inhabited the steppes on the left Volga's bank as early as in the 3rd c., with the Alans interlaid between the Hunns and Ostrogoths. Maybe Volga had those times another name, something like Ra or Ras of an unknown origin, perhaps Alanic.
                    The Ossetins, having a powerful Caucasian substrate, are not so direct descendants from the Alans, but their language preserves some features and lexical borrowings from Alanic, _don_ as running water in particular. Nevertheless, "epics reminiscences of their fights with a people GUT" look as a big overstatement.
                    Yes, Finnish _valkea_ is also one of conjectural etymological derivations for Volga. Note that the region of the upper Volga knows the White lake (_Beloozero_) and the White river -- the left confluent of Kama (Belaya i.e. White [river] in Russian or Ag-Idel i.e. White Itil in Bashkir).
                    Derivation of Volhov from East Germanic is very interesting for me. Could you add anything on this topic?

                    Vladimir


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                    Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 2:10 PM
                    To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos


                    Hails, Vladimir!
                    Thanks a lot for your correction! I feel defeated at the "Long River" :)
                    The form Itil as far as I know is Turkic (?) and therefore also too late to get into Gothic. What was the population of the Lower Volga basin in the 3rd - 4th centuries? Some place Alans east of Ostrogoths up to the time of the Hunnish invasion - could not they intermediate between whatever name of Volga and Ermanaricus' "sagacious mapmakers"? You know there's the people of the Ossets in North Caucasus which are direct linguistic descendants of East Alans and which are said to still keep in their epics reminiscences of their fights with a people "GUT". Does anybody know how they call Volga? The names of Don, Dnepr and Dnestr (and maybe Danube) at least, seem to come from North-Iranian, i.e. Scytho-Sarmatian and Alanic speech, and, note, today's Ossetic _don_ means just "river" or "water". This river row could be Gothic *Danus, *Danaprus, *Danastrus (in fact there's no sure evidence of u-stems for any of them, Jordanes has Danaper, Danaster and similarly other writers of
                    the time, IE proto-form *danu- could not be of any effect here, unless we presume there were "sagacious Gothic linguists" at work as well :)
                    Still, I'd like *Dulgjo to be used for any of the East-European rivers and surely there's a lot of scholarly literature on the Eddic Dylgja and the precise localization of that legendary battle between Angantyr and Hloedhr. I thought they fought (I mean the proto-event of the saga) somewhere between Don and Volga, on the Eastern frontier of the Ostrogothic sphere, and the Goths had actually to lose that battle (ca. 375 AD). This Volga-Don "Mesopotamia" could be called there Dunheidhr, Gothic *Dunahaithi...
                    I know a Finnish word valkea "white". Is Russian vlaga not rather to be connected with NHG Wolke "cloud", Lett. velgme "moisture" etc.? The Finnish form of Volkhov seems to look like Olhava, and that could be Gothicized into *Alhawi "a river of a sacred place" (?), of cause, without claiming to be a possible historic name (that was too far even for Ermanaricus :)
                    Ualarauans

                    еЗПТПЧ чМБДЙНЙТ <vegorov@...> wrote:
                    Hi Ualarauans!

                    With the "long river" Volga there are two aberrations,
                    both spatial and temporal. The name Volga related initially
                    only to the upper part of the river and was etymologically
                    close to the name of another river of that region Volhov.
                    However, the etymology is not defined exactly. The most
                    probable supposition is a Finnish word with meaning moisture,
                    which was also borrowed by Russian as _vlaga_. Extension of
                    the name Volga to the downer river named earlier Itil took
                    place somewhere in the 16-17 centuries. Hermanaricus and his
                    subjects had to be very sagacious to foreknow this for
                    thousand years ahead. Anyhow, the origin of the name Volga
                    is not Slavic.

                    Btw. I seem _Albs_ should be pronounced [alfs] with declension
                    changes to [alvis] etc.

                    Regards,
                    Vladimir


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                    Behalf Of ualarauans
                    Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:31 AM
                    To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos


                    In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                    > the final
                    devoicing rule (AuslautsverhДrtung) doesn't apply when 'b', 'g', 'd'
                    follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
                    would be *Albs.

                    Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce this:
                    [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic -b- I like most to
                    have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We have
                    Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like Liuva,
                    Erelieva etc., but what about -b- in the position you described,
                    i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS - leaning
                    on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as
                    Silva... Does the rule work only when -b- stands between two
                    consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it could be
                    again a question of chronology.
                    Talking about rivers I think we should not at once translate or
                    transliterate their present name, but to look first if there's any
                    possible evidence of how the river was called at the time the actual
                    Goths could reach, or hear of, it.
                    For example, French Seine was Lat.-Celt. Sequana. Was it still so in
                    the 5th century when Alareiks sa Fruma and his Visigoths came first
                    to the West? Or maybe it was already some compromise late-Latin /
                    early-Romance form (*Seghwana?) which could be adopted by them
                    undergoing some folk-etymological changes? Or perhaps there had been
                    a West-Germanic name of the river which the Goths received from
                    their Frankish and Alemannic cousins and rivals? I'm tempted to call
                    it *Saihvana F. -o (with a consonant shift), but firstly, if my
                    Latin dictionary doesn't lie, the -e- in Sequana was a long one;
                    secondly, the time of the shift was long over; and, thirdly, wasu so
                    ahva bi sunjai SAIHVANA? (was this river really SEEN by them?). So,
                    *Seqana, *Se(g)wana or something like?
                    Here's another question. As you know continental Gaulish was mostly
                    a p-Celtic language (i.e. every PIE kw- turned to p- unlike q-
                    Celtic). The PIE stem *sekw- "to follow", represented by Lat. sequor
                    and Goth. saihvan (lit. "to follow with the eyes"), as it is
                    commonly held, was additionally borrowed by Goths from some p-Celtic
                    dialect as siponeis "a disciple" < "a follower". Is Sequana of the
                    same family? And why not *Sepana? I see it's Gothic not "Celtic"
                    list, but if this name belongs to the same stem, it could perhaps be
                    possible to postulate some parallel, not borrowed, form in Germanic
                    and, thus, Gothic.
                    Let's travel over to another side of Europe and consider Volga. It
                    seems to me very probable that the Goths, this time the Ostrogoths,
                    had all chances to see it or at least to know about it at the time
                    of Ermanaricus' Greater Gothic Reich (((smile))). Maybe the trace of
                    it is ON Dylgja (Hlцрskviрa 26, 28) < Goth. *Dulgjo F. -on, which
                    could be a phonetically correct borrowing of a supposed Old Slavic
                    alternative name *Dlgaja (l is vocalic), lit. "the long (river)".
                    The actual Russian Volga is sometimes supposed to be borrowed from
                    Baltic *Ilga with the same meaning ("long"). Well, that seems rather
                    complicated... As a variant we could use a partly etymologized
                    loanword from Russian like *Wulgi F. -jo (cf. ON ylgr "she-wolf").
                    Ualarauans







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                  • ?????? ????????
                    Fredrik, The Bulgars emerged from the West Turkic kaganate and created circa 6th c. AD a realm on the North Caucasus, actually near downer Volga, conquered
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                      Fredrik,

                      The Bulgars emerged from the West Turkic kaganate and created circa 6th c. AD a realm on the North Caucasus, actually near downer Volga, conquered later by Khasars. Pushed in the 7th c. out from the Khasar kaganate, the divided and migrated in two direction: northward to the Middle Volga (conditionally the modern Tatars) and westward to Danube (conditionally the modern Bulgarians). The latter division moved, under leadership of khan Asparukh, partially along the way passed by the Goths, but they could not come up with the Goths because were late for a couple of centuries.

                      Vladimir

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Fredrik
                      Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 2:49 PM
                      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos


                      Does the name bulgar has anything to do with the river name Volga?
                      If I remember right the bulgars came from volga.
                      If this is so, when did the bulgars occur in history? At the time of
                      the goths, and did the bulgars and goths ever seen eachother?
                      What would Bulgaria be in gothic?
                      (One etymology of bulgar is turkic bulgha = sable.)


                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hails, Vladimir!
                      > Thanks a lot for your correction! I feel defeated at the "Long
                      River" :)
                      > The form Itil as far as I know is Turkic (?) and therefore also
                      too late to get into Gothic. What was the population of the Lower
                      Volga basin in the 3rd - 4th centuries? Some place Alans east of
                      Ostrogoths up to the time of the Hunnish invasion - could not they
                      intermediate between whatever name of Volga and
                      Ermanaricus' "sagacious mapmakers"? You know there's the people of
                      the Ossets in North Caucasus which are direct linguistic descendants
                      of East Alans and which are said to still keep in their epics
                      reminiscences of their fights with a people "GUT". Does anybody know
                      how they call Volga? The names of Don, Dnepr and Dnestr (and maybe
                      Danube) at least, seem to come from North-Iranian, i.e. Scytho-
                      Sarmatian and Alanic speech, and, note, today's Ossetic _don_ means
                      just "river" or "water". This river row could be Gothic *Danus,
                      *Danaprus, *Danastrus (in fact there's no sure evidence of u-stems
                      for any of them, Jordanes has Danaper, Danaster and similarly other
                      writers of
                      > the time, IE proto-form *danu- could not be of any effect here,
                      unless we presume there were "sagacious Gothic linguists" at work as
                      well :)
                      > Still, I'd like *Dulgjo to be used for any of the East-European
                      rivers and surely there's a lot of scholarly literature on the Eddic
                      Dylgja and the precise localization of that legendary battle between
                      Angantyr and Hloedhr. I thought they fought (I mean the proto-event
                      of the saga) somewhere between Don and Volga, on the Eastern frontier
                      of the Ostrogothic sphere, and the Goths had actually to lose that
                      battle (ca. 375 AD). This Volga-Don "Mesopotamia" could be called
                      there Dunheidhr, Gothic *Dunahaithi...
                      > I know a Finnish word valkea "white". Is Russian vlaga not rather
                      to be connected with NHG Wolke "cloud", Lett. velgme "moisture" etc.?
                      The Finnish form of Volkhov seems to look like Olhava, and that could
                      be Gothicized into *Alhawi "a river of a sacred place" (?), of cause,
                      without claiming to be a possible historic name (that was too far
                      even for Ermanaricus :)
                      > Ualarauans
                      >
                      > åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@...> wrote:
                      > Hi Ualarauans!
                      >
                      > With the "long river" Volga there are two aberrations,
                      > both spatial and temporal. The name Volga related initially
                      > only to the upper part of the river and was etymologically
                      > close to the name of another river of that region Volhov.
                      > However, the etymology is not defined exactly. The most
                      > probable supposition is a Finnish word with meaning moisture,
                      > which was also borrowed by Russian as _vlaga_. Extension of
                      > the name Volga to the downer river named earlier Itil took
                      > place somewhere in the 16-17 centuries. Hermanaricus and his
                      > subjects had to be very sagacious to foreknow this for
                      > thousand years ahead. Anyhow, the origin of the name Volga
                      > is not Slavic.
                      >
                      > Btw. I seem _Albs_ should be pronounced [alfs] with declension
                      > changes to [alvis] etc.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Vladimir
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                      > Behalf Of ualarauans
                      > Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:31 AM
                      > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos
                      >
                      >
                      > In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                      > > the final
                      > devoicing rule (AuslautsverhÄrtung) doesn't apply when 'b', 'g', 'd'
                      > follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
                      > would be *Albs.
                      >
                      > Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce this:
                      > [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic -b- I like most
                      to
                      > have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We have
                      > Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like Liuva,
                      > Erelieva etc., but what about -b- in the position you described,
                      > i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS -
                      leaning
                      > on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as
                      > Silva... Does the rule work only when -b- stands between two
                      > consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it could be
                      > again a question of chronology.
                      > Talking about rivers I think we should not at once translate or
                      > transliterate their present name, but to look first if there's any
                      > possible evidence of how the river was called at the time the
                      actual
                      > Goths could reach, or hear of, it.
                      > For example, French Seine was Lat.-Celt. Sequana. Was it still so
                      in
                      > the 5th century when Alareiks sa Fruma and his Visigoths came first
                      > to the West? Or maybe it was already some compromise late-Latin /
                      > early-Romance form (*Seghwana?) which could be adopted by them
                      > undergoing some folk-etymological changes? Or perhaps there had
                      been
                      > a West-Germanic name of the river which the Goths received from
                      > their Frankish and Alemannic cousins and rivals? I'm tempted to
                      call
                      > it *Saihvana F. -o (with a consonant shift), but firstly, if my
                      > Latin dictionary doesn't lie, the -e- in Sequana was a long one;
                      > secondly, the time of the shift was long over; and, thirdly, wasu
                      so
                      > ahva bi sunjai SAIHVANA? (was this river really SEEN by them?). So,
                      > *Seqana, *Se(g)wana or something like?
                      > Here's another question. As you know continental Gaulish was mostly
                      > a p-Celtic language (i.e. every PIE kw- turned to p- unlike q-
                      > Celtic). The PIE stem *sekw- "to follow", represented by Lat.
                      sequor
                      > and Goth. saihvan (lit. "to follow with the eyes"), as it is
                      > commonly held, was additionally borrowed by Goths from some p-
                      Celtic
                      > dialect as siponeis "a disciple" < "a follower". Is Sequana of the
                      > same family? And why not *Sepana? I see it's Gothic not "Celtic"
                      > list, but if this name belongs to the same stem, it could perhaps
                      be
                      > possible to postulate some parallel, not borrowed, form in Germanic
                      > and, thus, Gothic.
                      > Let's travel over to another side of Europe and consider Volga. It
                      > seems to me very probable that the Goths, this time the Ostrogoths,
                      > had all chances to see it or at least to know about it at the time
                      > of Ermanaricus' Greater Gothic Reich (((smile))). Maybe the trace
                      of
                      > it is ON Dylgja (Hlöðskviða 26, 28) < Goth. *Dulgjo F. -on, which
                      > could be a phonetically correct borrowing of a supposed Old Slavic
                      > alternative name *Dlgaja (l is vocalic), lit. "the long (river)".
                      > The actual Russian Volga is sometimes supposed to be borrowed from
                      > Baltic *Ilga with the same meaning ("long"). Well, that seems
                      rather
                      > complicated... As a variant we could use a partly etymologized
                      > loanword from Russian like *Wulgi F. -jo (cf. ON ylgr "she-wolf").
                      > Ualarauans
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
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                      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
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                      > Send instant messages to your online friends
                      http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >








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                    • llama_nom
                      ... follows ... should ... in ... Exactly the same rule for b, d, g. They become respectively f, þ, g at the end of a word or before final s, except when
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                        > > Would you say similar rules could go for d as well?
                        > > Like d in hunds doesnt become th (like hunths), becoz of it
                        follows
                        > a
                        > > consonant. Initally is is [d] and intervocalic like [D].
                        > > If b is [p] in albs, (becoz of ending in s?) then d in hunds
                        should
                        > > be [t]?
                        > > And what about g? Is it [g] initially, [G] intervocalic and [k]
                        in
                        > > endings before s?

                        Exactly the same rule for b, d, g. They become respectively f, þ, g
                        at the end of a word or before final s, except when they follow
                        another consonant, in which case they stay b, d, g. Occasionally b,
                        d, g also appear finally or before s after a vowel. These irregular
                        spellings are found especially in certain parts of the bible. They
                        are usually considered to be just spelling variants, although a few
                        scholars have tried to find a pattern to it. But there aren't any
                        examples of the reverse confusion, e.g. *hunþs for hunds, etc.
                        Which strongly suggests that there was a real difference in
                        pronunciation between b, d, g after consonants and after vowels.

                        Here's what I do at the moment: dags [daxs], alhs [alhs], gadiliggs
                        ["gaDiliNks], gard [gard], gards [garts], gadofs/gadobs ["ga%
                        do:p\s], giba [giBa], lamb [lamb], agliþa ["aM\liTa], ubuhwopida [%
                        ubuh"wo:pida], etc. Like I say, there are other ways to interpret
                        the evidence... I'm not sure whether to stress the prefix ga- in
                        nouns and adjectives, but I am doing for the moment. It was
                        originally, as shown by OE geatwe, but later the stress shifted to
                        the root in all the better known Germanic languages.

                        > Would you pronounce these words smth like this?:
                        >
                        > dags [daxs]
                        > dag [dax]
                        > daga [daGa] or [daM\a]
                        > giba [gIBa]
                        > bairgs [bErks]

                        Yes, pretty much, including the uncertainly over 'daga'! One thing
                        in favour of a less forceful pronunciation, [M\] or at least tending
                        that way, is the fact that "breaking" of /i/ to [E] didn't happen
                        before /g/. Another clue is are spellings in the Vienna-Salzburg
                        codex such as 'haal' *hagl, 'laaz' *lagus, 'daaz' *dags. I try to
                        say [giBa], but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of [gIBa].
                        If 'i' and 'ei' represent long and short variants of the same vowel,
                        it's strange that this should be the only vowel for which length is
                        marked in the writing system; why not 'ou' for [u:]. Still, it's
                        quite possible that such quirks could exists. One idea I've changed
                        since we last discussed this, is to pronounce /h/ as [h] in all
                        positions, rather than as [x] finally and before consonants. That's
                        because (1) it's never confused with final /g/. (2) the
                        forms 'magt' and 'maht' are never mixed up. (3) /h/ is often
                        assimilated to a following consonant, sometimes elided, suggesting a
                        less forceful pronunciation.

                        > I have been thinking of a word for elk or moose.
                        > If the pgmc word was *algiz then gothic would be algs [alks] right?

                        I think so. I don't know of any evidence about tones in Gothic.
                        I'd be interested to hear of any books or papers or ideas about the
                        origin of the tonal system in the Scandinavian languages, and
                        whether other early Germanic languages might have has something
                        similar, or if it was an innovation in North Germanic. Is there a
                        German dialect that has phonemic tones too? Do they have any
                        resemblence to the Scandinavian system, or did they evolve
                        independently?
                      • llama_nom
                        Turville-Petre has a note in his edition of Hervarar saga saying that it s not clear whether Dylgjudölum should be read as a placename, or simply the dales
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                          Turville-Petre has a note in his edition of Hervarar saga saying that
                          it's not clear whether Dylgjudölum should be read as a placename, or
                          simply "the dales of strife", "valleys of battle". But then, even if
                          it was interpreted later as a kenning, I guess it could still have
                          been based on some ancient possibly garbled memory of a placename.
                        • Manie Lombard
                          Hails! As far as I know, Bulgar is derived from Bulγar ”(of) mixed (descent)”
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                            Hails!



                            As far as I know, Bulgar is derived from Bulγar ”(of) mixed (descent)” <
                            bulγamaq ”mix”. Compare Chagatay ”بولغامق” (bulγamaq) ”make cloudy, dull,
                            make turbid”, or Turkish ”bulamak” (بوله‌مق) ”mix, stir; besmear, bedaub”.




                            Regards

                            Manie
                          • Guenther Ramm
                            Hailai jut Frithureik jah Waldamer! ... - As far as I heard the tradition of the Danubian Bulgaria connected its name with Volga, but the modern etymology
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                              Hailai jut Frithureik jah Waldamer!

                              > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
                              > Does the name bulgar has anything to do with the river name Volga?
                              > If I remember right the bulgars came from volga.
                              > If this is so, when did the bulgars occur in history? At the time of
                              > the goths, and did the bulgars and goths ever seen eachother?
                              > What would Bulgaria be in gothic?
                              > (One etymology of bulgar is turkic bulgha = sable.)

                              - As far as I heard the tradition of the Danubian Bulgaria connected its name with Volga, but the modern etymology denies it in favor of some Turkic roots (like bulgha or bulg- “to mingle” etc.– see Manie Lombard’s post 8823 if your PC decodes all those terrible symbols, unlike mine, unfortunately). I guess the today’s Slavic-speaking Bulgarians correlate to Bulgars no more than French to Franks and maybe Russians to Roslagen Vikings.
                              - Jordanes definitely mentions Bulgars telling about events of the 6th century (Get. 37: ...distendunt supra mare Ponticum Bulgarum sedes...) as one of the post-Hunnish tribes widely known (notissimos – ibidem) after their assaults on Roman Illyricum and Thracia. As Jordanes was most likely a Goth and a Gothic historiograph we can admit Goths at least heard of Bulgars and perhaps they could have seen if not Bulgars then their great-grandfathers on the camps of Champagne under Attila in 451 AD when Bulgars had not yet distinguished themselves from the mass of other Hunnish tribes.
                              - As for a name in Gothic, I’d propose Bulg(a)ros M. –a if it had come via Latin (what exactly was the Turco-Bulgarian form I don’t know). Couldn’t it acquire a folk-etymological link to the Germanic stem represented in OE belgan sv. 3 “to swell with anger”, “become enraged” (fits pretty well in with their presumable image in Roman eyes)? But for the name of today’s European country maybe we better retain *Thrakiland and *Thrakeis M. –i Pl.? It’s the same way as *Walhaland for Romania – most probable (in my opinion) name the historical Goths could have for these territories. To specially point out Romanians as distinguished from the West Romance (which might be quite easy *Walhos as well) we could perhaps use *Austra-walhos and Austra-walhaland? Then Italy could be *Wistra-walhaland (not to say *Wisuwalha- :) or even *Walhiskaland (after German Welschland). Compare it with an elder-Runic (?) kenning walha kurne “welsh corn” – “gold”, and you’ll get an idea of that
                              “terrestrial paradise” which Goths perhaps imagined Roman lands to be.
                              I understand pretty well I’m dealing here with subjects which can concern personal feelings of ethnic identity and I sincerely apologize if something seems “annoying” (it can easily be totally wrong). Anyway, I hope you know there’s no offensive intent of mine.

                              > Åúðôðþ Þíâäêîêô <vegorov@...> wrote:
                              > The name Itil was known at least since the Khazar times, as one of their
                              > capitals disposed on Volga (more exactly modern Akhtuba) was called also Itil.
                              > In particular, Ibn-Fadlan knew in the early 10 c. both the river and town Itil.
                              > However, origins of the name itself are veiled in obscurity, though Turkic
                              > sources are commonly accepted.

                              - All I read about Khazars is Arthur Koestler’s The Thirteenth Tribe and that is said to be rather belletristic. The early 10th century is still too late for Goths unless we take into consideration the Crimean Goths. I heard some Turkic words were discovered in the Busbecquian Vocabulary that means they had been borrowed by the Crimean Goths (?).

                              > According to Gumilev, the Hunns inhabited the steppes on the left Volga's bank
                              > as early as in the 3rd c., with the Alans interlaid between the Hunns and
                              > Ostrogoths. Maybe Volga had those times another name, something like Ra or Ras
                              > of an unknown origin, perhaps Alanic.

                              - I guess this Rha could be Avestan Rangha, Sanskrit Rasa – name of a mythical river – kept by Scytho-Sarmatians (= Alans) as a part of their Iranian heritage. If this North-Iranian form would be *Rah(a) (quite not sure here) > Gothic *Rah-ahva > *Rahva??? Well, to say such reconstruction procedure is arbitrary and groundless is to be too soft.

                              > The Ossetins, having a powerful Caucasian substrate, are not so direct
                              > descendants from the Alans, but their language preserves some features and
                              > lexical borrowings from Alanic, _don_ as running water in particular.
                              > Nevertheless, "epics reminiscences of their fights with a people GUT" look as a
                              > big overstatement.

                              - It’s a pity if so. You know we interested in the Goths still hope to find somewhere in far corners something living about them, or about those who saw them living :)

                              > Yes, Finnish _valkea_ is also one of conjectural etymological derivations for
                              > Volga. Note that the region of the upper Volga knows the White lake
                              (_Beloozero_) and the White river -- the left confluent of Kama (Belaya i.e.
                              > White [river] in Russian or Ag-Idel i.e. White Itil in Bashkir).

                              - I remember you wrote about it in connection with Poland and the Balts, I guess. Do you assume some toponymic substrate behind all these “white” names? Who could it be ethnically connected with? And isn’t “white river” a worldwide spread name unable to be restricted to some local area?

                              > Derivation of Volhov from East Germanic is very interesting for me. Could you
                              > add anything on this topic?

                              No, no, Gothic *Alhawi I proposed for Fin. Olhava > Rus. Volkhov is just a slapdash phonetically close construction with some meaning. It could be e.g. *Walahva “river of the slain” both for Volkhov and Volga as well (with semantics close to ON Dylgja). What is the true etymology of the Finnish name I don’t know. Maybe we could speculate whether the Goths like later Variags used that Volkhov-Dnepr way moving south and thus could leave some of their toponymics underway. If one day some scholar would prove this and suggest Volkhov < *Alhawi, we should come up and demand our share of his Nobel prize :)
                              Best Regards
                              Ualarauans

                              Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Manie Lombard
                              Hails! Then let me send my message again, seeing that some people might not have unicode: As far as I know, Bulgar is derived from Bul?ar (of) mixed
                              Message 14 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                                Hails!

                                Then let me send my message again, seeing that some people might not have
                                unicode:

                                As far as I know, Bulgar is derived from Bul?ar "(of) mixed (descent)" <
                                bul?amaq "mix". Compare Chagatay "???????" (bul?amaq) "make cloudy, dull,
                                make turbid", or Turkish "bulamak" (???????) "mix, stir; besmear, bedaub".

                                Regards
                              • David Kiltz
                                ... Hi Manie, the first message got through fine (for me). Please allow me two ensuing, somewhat off-topic questions: The formation in -r, is it singular (pl.
                                Message 15 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                                  On 15.05.2006, at 20:58, Manie Lombard wrote:

                                  > Hails!
                                  >
                                  > As far as I know, Bulgar is derived from Bulγar ”(of) mixed
                                  > (descent)” <
                                  > bulγamaq ”mix”. Compare Chagatay
                                  > ”بولغامق” (bulγamaq) ”make cloudy, dull,
                                  > make turbid”, or Turkish ”bulamak” (بوله‌مق) ”mix,
                                  > stir; besmear, bedaub”.

                                  Hi Manie,

                                  the first message got through fine (for me). Please allow me two
                                  ensuing, somewhat off-topic questions: The formation in -r, is it
                                  singular (pl. bulγarlar) and does it correspond to modern Turkish -r
                                  'aorists' ?

                                  Best regards,

                                  David
                                • Егоров Владимир
                                  Hi Ualarauans and others! Of course, rivers of various colors are scattered around the world, and the name White river is too habitual to draw with such an
                                  Message 16 of 27 , May 15, 2006
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                                    Hi Ualarauans and others!

                                    Of course, rivers of various "colors" are scattered around the world, and the name "White river" is too habitual to draw with such an argument to quick conclusions. In some cases, a "white" community may be of importance, in most cases not. For example, I guess a "white" area encompasses Baltic countries (the stem balt- means in Lithuanian white) and Belarus (the stem bel- means in Slavic same white). But I do not see reasons to expand this community up to Volga.
                                    The official Russian history considers the so called "chyud'" of Old Russian chronicles as a Finnish people that populated the territory around old Novgorod on Volkhov. Though long ago linguists derived this "chyud'" from Gothic "thiuda" (with palatalization of th and d), the official Russian science refused to admit the evident facts in its perpetual fight against the so called "normanism", i.e. participation of any Germanic components in creation of the first Russian state Kiev's Rus'. Meanwhile, if the Chernyakhov culture was Gothic, if the "chyud'" was a Germanic tribe, everything changes in the old Russian prehistory! Derivation of the name of Volkhov river from Old Germanic is therefore of great interest and importance. I would be very grateful to everybody who could clarify this point a little bit if nothing else.

                                    Vladimir


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                                    Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:03 AM
                                    To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos


                                    Hailai jut Frithureik jah Waldamer!

                                    > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
                                    > Does the name bulgar has anything to do with the river name Volga?
                                    > If I remember right the bulgars came from volga.
                                    > If this is so, when did the bulgars occur in history? At the time of
                                    > the goths, and did the bulgars and goths ever seen eachother?
                                    > What would Bulgaria be in gothic?
                                    > (One etymology of bulgar is turkic bulgha = sable.)

                                    - As far as I heard the tradition of the Danubian Bulgaria connected its name with Volga, but the modern etymology denies it in favor of some Turkic roots (like bulgha or bulg- "to mingle" etc.- see Manie Lombard's post 8823 if your PC decodes all those terrible symbols, unlike mine, unfortunately). I guess the today's Slavic-speaking Bulgarians correlate to Bulgars no more than French to Franks and maybe Russians to Roslagen Vikings.
                                    - Jordanes definitely mentions Bulgars telling about events of the 6th century (Get. 37: ...distendunt supra mare Ponticum Bulgarum sedes...) as one of the post-Hunnish tribes widely known (notissimos - ibidem) after their assaults on Roman Illyricum and Thracia. As Jordanes was most likely a Goth and a Gothic historiograph we can admit Goths at least heard of Bulgars and perhaps they could have seen if not Bulgars then their great-grandfathers on the camps of Champagne under Attila in 451 AD when Bulgars had not yet distinguished themselves from the mass of other Hunnish tribes.
                                    - As for a name in Gothic, I'd propose Bulg(a)ros M. -a if it had come via Latin (what exactly was the Turco-Bulgarian form I don't know). Couldn't it acquire a folk-etymological link to the Germanic stem represented in OE belgan sv. 3 "to swell with anger", "become enraged" (fits pretty well in with their presumable image in Roman eyes)? But for the name of today's European country maybe we better retain *Thrakiland and *Thrakeis M. -i Pl.? It's the same way as *Walhaland for Romania - most probable (in my opinion) name the historical Goths could have for these territories. To specially point out Romanians as distinguished from the West Romance (which might be quite easy *Walhos as well) we could perhaps use *Austra-walhos and Austra-walhaland? Then Italy could be *Wistra-walhaland (not to say *Wisuwalha- :) or even *Walhiskaland (after German Welschland). Compare it with an elder-Runic (?) kenning walha kurne "welsh corn" - "gold", and you'll get an idea of that
                                    "terrestrial paradise" which Goths perhaps imagined Roman lands to be.
                                    I understand pretty well I'm dealing here with subjects which can concern personal feelings of ethnic identity and I sincerely apologize if something seems "annoying" (it can easily be totally wrong). Anyway, I hope you know there's no offensive intent of mine.

                                    > Еърфрю Юнвдкокф <vegorov@...> wrote:
                                    > The name Itil was known at least since the Khazar times, as one of their
                                    > capitals disposed on Volga (more exactly modern Akhtuba) was called also Itil.
                                    > In particular, Ibn-Fadlan knew in the early 10 c. both the river and town Itil.
                                    > However, origins of the name itself are veiled in obscurity, though Turkic
                                    > sources are commonly accepted.

                                    - All I read about Khazars is Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe and that is said to be rather belletristic. The early 10th century is still too late for Goths unless we take into consideration the Crimean Goths. I heard some Turkic words were discovered in the Busbecquian Vocabulary that means they had been borrowed by the Crimean Goths (?).

                                    > According to Gumilev, the Hunns inhabited the steppes on the left Volga's bank
                                    > as early as in the 3rd c., with the Alans interlaid between the Hunns and
                                    > Ostrogoths. Maybe Volga had those times another name, something like Ra or Ras
                                    > of an unknown origin, perhaps Alanic.

                                    - I guess this Rha could be Avestan Rangha, Sanskrit Rasa - name of a mythical river - kept by Scytho-Sarmatians (= Alans) as a part of their Iranian heritage. If this North-Iranian form would be *Rah(a) (quite not sure here) > Gothic *Rah-ahva > *Rahva??? Well, to say such reconstruction procedure is arbitrary and groundless is to be too soft.

                                    > The Ossetins, having a powerful Caucasian substrate, are not so direct
                                    > descendants from the Alans, but their language preserves some features and
                                    > lexical borrowings from Alanic, _don_ as running water in particular.
                                    > Nevertheless, "epics reminiscences of their fights with a people GUT" look as a
                                    > big overstatement.

                                    - It's a pity if so. You know we interested in the Goths still hope to find somewhere in far corners something living about them, or about those who saw them living :)

                                    > Yes, Finnish _valkea_ is also one of conjectural etymological derivations for
                                    > Volga. Note that the region of the upper Volga knows the White lake
                                    (_Beloozero_) and the White river -- the left confluent of Kama (Belaya i.e.
                                    > White [river] in Russian or Ag-Idel i.e. White Itil in Bashkir).

                                    - I remember you wrote about it in connection with Poland and the Balts, I guess. Do you assume some toponymic substrate behind all these "white" names? Who could it be ethnically connected with? And isn't "white river" a worldwide spread name unable to be restricted to some local area?

                                    > Derivation of Volhov from East Germanic is very interesting for me. Could you
                                    > add anything on this topic?

                                    No, no, Gothic *Alhawi I proposed for Fin. Olhava > Rus. Volkhov is just a slapdash phonetically close construction with some meaning. It could be e.g. *Walahva "river of the slain" both for Volkhov and Volga as well (with semantics close to ON Dylgja). What is the true etymology of the Finnish name I don't know. Maybe we could speculate whether the Goths like later Variags used that Volkhov-Dnepr way moving south and thus could leave some of their toponymics underway. If one day some scholar would prove this and suggest Volkhov < *Alhawi, we should come up and demand our share of his Nobel prize :)
                                    Best Regards
                                    Ualarauans

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                                  • Guenther Ramm
                                    ... conclusions. In some cases, a white community may be of importance, in most cases not. For example, I guess a white area encompasses Baltic countries
                                    Message 17 of 27 , May 16, 2006
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                                      åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@...> wrote:
                                      > Hi Ualarauans and others!



                                      > Of course, rivers of various "colors" are scattered around the world, and the

                                      > name "White river" is too habitual to draw with such an argument to quick

                                      conclusions. In some cases, a "white" community may be of importance, in most

                                      cases not. For example, I guess a "white" area encompasses Baltic countries (the

                                      > stem balt- means in Lithuanian white) and Belarus (the stem bel- means in Slavic

                                      > same white). But I do not see reasons to expand this community up to Volga.

                                      The official Russian history considers the so called "chyud'" of Old Russian

                                      chronicles as a Finnish people that populated the territory around old Novgorod

                                      > on Volkhov. Though long ago linguists derived this "chyud'" from Gothic "thiuda"

                                      > (with palatalization of th and d), the official Russian science refused to admit

                                      > the evident facts in its perpetual fight against the so called "normanism", i.e.

                                      > participation of any Germanic components in creation of the first Russian state

                                      > Kiev's Rus'. Meanwhile, if the Chernyakhov culture was Gothic, if the "chyud'"

                                      > was a Germanic tribe, everything changes in the old Russian prehistory!

                                      Derivation of the name of Volkhov river from Old Germanic is therefore of great

                                      > interest and importance. I would be very grateful to everybody who could clarify

                                      > this point a little bit if nothing else.



                                      > Vladimir


                                      - So you think (if I understood right) this “white” proto-people of the Northeast Europe were Goths? I guess the word tchiud’ (singulative tchiudinu) meant something like “ancient giant”, “Rephaim” in Old Church Slavonic and is really a reflex of borrowed thiuda, this latter being an auto-ethnonym of some part of East-Germanic wandering communities (cf. analogical development in NHG Huene “giant” < OHG Hu:ni “Huns” – is there in Russian some tchiud’-derived pendant to German Huenenbett or Huenengrab referring to prehistoric mounds?). That the East-Slavic (= Old Russian) annals applied this term to some of Baltic Finns may stand in witness of the fact that some Gothic Gefolgschafts having went too far east finally dissolved among Finns bringing that layer of Germanic loanwords into Baltic Finnish which is usually connected with East-Germanic, e.g. miekka < mekeis, niekla < nethla etc. Given this we could seriously discuss the problem of possible Gothic toponymics in
                                      Northwest Russia.
                                      That involves also the question of Gothic “landing points” – was it the Vistula mouth (Goth. *Gutiskandi / *Gipidaujos?) only or maybe some other parts of the South Baltic coast as well? Perhaps the Gulf of Riga and even the Gulf of Finland?
                                      You know there’s Peipus lake between Russia and Estonia which is Tchiudskoye ozero in Russian – could it have been once and be again *Thiudisks saiws (Max Vasmer’s old hypothesis)?

                                      Ualarauans

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                                    • Manie Lombard
                                      Hails Daweid In Turkish you get the aorist participle -r (after vowels), which is quite productive (the same form is used for the 3rd person sg aorist):
                                      Message 18 of 27 , May 16, 2006
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                                        Hails Daweid

                                        In Turkish you get the aorist participle "-r" (after vowels), which is quite
                                        productive (the same form is used for the 3rd person sg aorist):

                                        "güler yüzlü": merry, cherrful, affable
                                        "akar su": running water
                                        "gelir": income; revenue; rent
                                        "gider": expenditure, expense

                                        The singular would of course be bulγar.

                                        Greetings

                                        Manie

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "David Kiltz" <derdron@...>
                                        To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:24 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos



                                        On 15.05.2006, at 20:58, Manie Lombard wrote:

                                        > Hails!
                                        >
                                        > As far as I know, Bulgar is derived from Bulγar ”(of) mixed
                                        > (descent)” <
                                        > bulγamaq ”mix”. Compare Chagatay
                                        > ”بولغامق” (bulγamaq) ”make cloudy, dull,
                                        > make turbid”, or Turkish ”bulamak” (بوله‌مق) ”mix,
                                        > stir; besmear, bedaub”.

                                        Hi Manie,

                                        the first message got through fine (for me). Please allow me two
                                        ensuing, somewhat off-topic questions: The formation in -r, is it
                                        singular (pl. bulγarlar) and does it correspond to modern Turkish -r
                                        'aorists' ?

                                        Best regards,

                                        David




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                                      • Егоров Владимир
                                        Hi Ualarauans! You understood wrong. I never connected the hypothetic white community with the Goths. More probably they were Baltic or Venedic people. You
                                        Message 19 of 27 , May 21, 2006
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                                          Hi Ualarauans!

                                          You understood wrong. I never connected the hypothetic "white community" with the Goths. More probably they were Baltic or Venedic people.
                                          You are wrong also regarding another your statement. "Chyud" means nothing in Old Church Slavonic, neither "ancient giants" nor anything else. In Old Russian "Chyud" is used exclusively as an ethnonym with undefined ethnicity. Never and nowhere the old Russian annals defined "Chyud" as the Baltic Finns (nor the Balts, nor Finns). The Finnish attribution of "Chyud" is only a tradition of the Russian historiography with no real grounds.
                                          I do not believe "some Gothic Gefolgschafts having went too far east finally dissolved among Finns bringing that layer of Germanic loanwords into Baltic Finnish". Vice versa. It seems more likely that the Finnish tribes populated neighborhoods of Chyudskoye lake in the middle of the first millennium AD, only a little bit earlier than the Slavs. And the main question is: Who were the aborigines here? According to Tacitus, the entire southern coast of Baltic See was Germanic in the first centuries AD. I do not see reasons to deny the Germanic substrate for the mentioned region as well. I would not risk contending that there were the Goths, as we understand them nowadays, but some unknown East Germanic people looks very probable. I guess it were forefathers of the so-called Izhora (i.e. Ingermanni).

                                          Vladimir


                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                                          Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                                          Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:11 PM
                                          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos




                                          еЗПТПЧ чМБДЙНЙТ <vegorov@...> wrote:
                                          > Hi Ualarauans and others!



                                          > Of course, rivers of various "colors" are scattered around the world, and the

                                          > name "White river" is too habitual to draw with such an argument to quick

                                          conclusions. In some cases, a "white" community may be of importance, in most

                                          cases not. For example, I guess a "white" area encompasses Baltic countries (the

                                          > stem balt- means in Lithuanian white) and Belarus (the stem bel- means in Slavic

                                          > same white). But I do not see reasons to expand this community up to Volga.

                                          The official Russian history considers the so called "chyud'" of Old Russian

                                          chronicles as a Finnish people that populated the territory around old Novgorod

                                          > on Volkhov. Though long ago linguists derived this "chyud'" from Gothic "thiuda"

                                          > (with palatalization of th and d), the official Russian science refused to admit

                                          > the evident facts in its perpetual fight against the so called "normanism", i.e.

                                          > participation of any Germanic components in creation of the first Russian state

                                          > Kiev's Rus'. Meanwhile, if the Chernyakhov culture was Gothic, if the "chyud'"

                                          > was a Germanic tribe, everything changes in the old Russian prehistory!

                                          Derivation of the name of Volkhov river from Old Germanic is therefore of great

                                          > interest and importance. I would be very grateful to everybody who could clarify

                                          > this point a little bit if nothing else.



                                          > Vladimir


                                          - So you think (if I understood right) this "white" proto-people of the Northeast Europe were Goths? I guess the word tchiud' (singulative tchiudinu) meant something like "ancient giant", "Rephaim" in Old Church Slavonic and is really a reflex of borrowed thiuda, this latter being an auto-ethnonym of some part of East-Germanic wandering communities (cf. analogical development in NHG Huene "giant" < OHG Hu:ni "Huns" - is there in Russian some tchiud'-derived pendant to German Huenenbett or Huenengrab referring to prehistoric mounds?). That the East-Slavic (= Old Russian) annals applied this term to some of Baltic Finns may stand in witness of the fact that some Gothic Gefolgschafts having went too far east finally dissolved among Finns bringing that layer of Germanic loanwords into Baltic Finnish which is usually connected with East-Germanic, e.g. miekka < mekeis, niekla < nethla etc. Given this we could seriously discuss the problem of possible Gothic toponymics in
                                          Northwest Russia.
                                          That involves also the question of Gothic "landing points" - was it the Vistula mouth (Goth. *Gutiskandi / *Gipidaujos?) only or maybe some other parts of the South Baltic coast as well? Perhaps the Gulf of Riga and even the Gulf of Finland?
                                          You know there's Peipus lake between Russia and Estonia which is Tchiudskoye ozero in Russian - could it have been once and be again *Thiudisks saiws (Max Vasmer's old hypothesis)?

                                          Ualarauans

                                          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                        • Guenther Ramm
                                          åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ wrote: You are wrong also regarding another your statement. Chyud means nothing in Old Church
                                          Message 20 of 27 , May 22, 2006
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                                            åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@...> wrote: > You are wrong also regarding another your statement. "Chyud" means nothing in Old Church Slavonic, neither "ancient giants" nor anything else.

                                            - Dear Vladimir, I suspect it’s not me but the Russian Academy of Sciences which you can address that. In 1994 it issued Staroslov’yanski Slovar’ (10-11 cc.) where it’s asserted (I’m citing out of memory so there may be errors) that the noun _sht’yud’i_ (don’t know the right way to transliterate that) as well as the derivative adjective _sht’yuzhd’i_ ARE attested in Old Church Slavonic, what answers the traditional view of it as a Common Slavic epoch borrowing from Germanic, most probably East-Germanic. The latter adjective still lives in the most Slavic languages meaning “foreign”, “alien” and the like. I doubt very much that it could spread from Russian into the rest of Slavia as late as the 8th-9th cc. (supposed time of East-Slavs approaching the Baltic area) when the Common Slavic language processes had been long over. This is more likely to mean that the East-Slavs reached the region where their later annals localize this mysterious people already bearing in mouth
                                            the word _chud’_ (< PSl *t’jud’i < Goth. thiuda) of an “unknown, foreign people”, which they specified for the Baltic Finns as the only non-Slavic folk they encountered there. The word itself seems to go back to that stormy epoch of 2nd-6th cc. when very active contacts were being maintained between the would-be Slavs and the Goths during the Chernyakhov time and later within the Hunnish “coalition”. You know chud’ is far from being the only Gothic loanword in Slavic, and there’s a couple of words in attested Gothic which are supposed of a Slavic origin (I know of the verb plinsjan “to dance” < PSl. plesati (nasal _e_), and if “my” idea of connecting Goth. slawan “to be silent” with the name of Slavs I posted here before be right (?), then that’s another one).
                                            - As for the chronology and precise meaning (let alone the very existence) of the word _sht’yud’i_ in Old Church Slavonic so I’ll have a look in the said Slovar’ or in Vasmer’s Russisches etymologisches Wörterbuch and post it with an accurate up-to-the-page-number reference as soon as I can. Until then I beg your trust that this “ancient giant” is not a product of my imagination (what of course does happen sometimes, but I hope not this time). There can easily be some other errors thereabout in the meanwhile.
                                            - Actually, I guess the view on this stem as a Common Slav borrowing is to be found in every academic etymological dictionary of Slavic languages, and the Russian ones are no exception. But if you believe that the Russian science “refuses to admit evident facts” or is based on “traditions with no real grounds” then maybe it’s no argument. But then, who launched the first manned spaceship? shall I ask :)

                                            > Never and nowhere the old Russian annals defined "Chyud" as the Baltic Finns (nor the Balts, nor Finns).


                                            - I see I better define the term “Baltic Finns”. It refers to Suomi, Eesti, Karjala and several smaller groups as opposed to Volgaic Finnish and Ugric. I don’t know precisely about the annals, but in spoken Russian a word “chukhna” (< chud’) was (is?) used as a derogatory slang name of Estonians.

                                            > And the main question is: Who were the aborigines here? According > to Tacitus, the entire southern coast of Baltic See was Germanic in > the first centuries AD. I do not see reasons to deny the Germanic substrate for the mentioned region as well. I would not risk contending that there were the Goths, as we understand them nowadays, but some unknown East Germanic people looks very probable. I guess it > were forefathers of the so-called Izhora (i.e. Ingermanni).


                                            - A Germanic substrate in Southeast Baltic preceding Finns? That’s interesting, but is there some more evidence besides Tacitus? According to Tacitus, the Earth is a flat disc, maybe :) The Ingermanland (Inkeri) language still lives, though close to extinction, in several villages near St.-Petersburg. It is well described in the literature and is no more Germanic than Finnish or Estonian. It belongs to the same Baltic Finnish group I said of above.
                                            - Finally, I wonder what is “Venedic” in your context?

                                            I hope our list-mates will not consider this discussion as being totally off-topic. If you nevertheless do, please give us a hint so that we could stop.

                                            Ualarauans

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                                          • Ingemar Nordgren
                                            ... interesting, but is there some more evidence besides Tacitus? According to Tacitus, the Earth is a flat disc, maybe :) The Ingermanland (Inkeri) language
                                            Message 21 of 27 , May 22, 2006
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                                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:

                                              > - A Germanic substrate in Southeast Baltic preceding Finns? That's
                                              interesting, but is there some more evidence besides Tacitus?
                                              According to Tacitus, the Earth is a flat disc, maybe :) The
                                              Ingermanland (Inkeri) language still lives, though close to
                                              extinction, in several villages near St.-Petersburg. It is well
                                              described in the literature and is no more Germanic than Finnish or
                                              Estonian. It belongs to the same Baltic Finnish group I said of above.

                                              Hi Ualarus and Vladimir,

                                              There is an earlier Germanic people according to the earlier
                                              researchers supposed to have settled the area before the Goths. This
                                              is of course before the present tendency to see a pure native
                                              developement between the different cultures in present Wielbark - a
                                              tendency which I partly oppose since it excludes any outside
                                              interference. This people is supposed to be the Bastarni and also in a
                                              discussed relation to them the Sciri.

                                              Best
                                              Ingemar
                                            • Егоров Владимир
                                              Hi Ualarauans and Ingemar! I also hope our moderators will look through their fingers at our discussion. I would readdress my claims to the Russian Academy of
                                              Message 22 of 27 , May 23, 2006
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                                                Hi Ualarauans and Ingemar!

                                                I also hope our moderators will look through their fingers at our discussion.
                                                I would readdress my claims to the Russian Academy of Sciences with pleasure but, I am sure, with no result. I myself work within that formation and do not have any illusions.
                                                Of course, all my previous remarks referred solely to the ethnonym "chyud'", not the stem, which appeared in Old Church Slavonic in the form "chuzhd-" and has derivatives in Russian (chuzhoy, chudnoy etc.), with the meaning strange, foreign as well.
                                                Note, the Baltic Finns were not the only non-Slavic folk the East-Slavs encountered on the banks of Chudskoye lake if they were at all there. At least a big Baltic tribe, the so-called Pskov's Kriviches, lived there while presence of your "Baltic Finns" is not proved archaeologically.
                                                Any contacts between the Goths and Slavs within the area of the Chernyakhov culture looks very dubious. First, the lifetime of the culture was too short. Second, existence of some Slavs (or Pre-Slavs) in that area is questionable by itself. I seem you should find other places and times for those contacts. Ingemar, the Russian archaeologist Shchukin develops an idea of Bastarnian participation in the Slavonic ethnogenesis with references to the zarubinetskaya culture. But he considers the Bastarni as rather the Celts than the Germans or, more exactly, a "third people between the Celts and Germans".
                                                Yes, the Ingermanland (Inkeri) language still lives, but the French language lives and prospers also, though it is not a German language of the original Franks. The same way the original conjectural East Germanic language of the Ingermanni was consecutively finnishized (Inger > Inkeri) and than slavonized (Inkeri > Izhora).
                                                A remark on the launch of the first manned spaceship. Again, all the same. The Soviet people did not know that the first sputnik and the first man ascended into the space using German engines of Werner von Braun and, to a significant extent, German fuel. All German sources were always concealed and never mentioned in the USSR, both in history and technology.

                                                Vladimir


                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                Behalf Of Ingemar Nordgren
                                                Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 11:26 PM
                                                To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos Thiudozuh


                                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:

                                                > - A Germanic substrate in Southeast Baltic preceding Finns? That's
                                                interesting, but is there some more evidence besides Tacitus?
                                                According to Tacitus, the Earth is a flat disc, maybe :) The
                                                Ingermanland (Inkeri) language still lives, though close to
                                                extinction, in several villages near St.-Petersburg. It is well
                                                described in the literature and is no more Germanic than Finnish or
                                                Estonian. It belongs to the same Baltic Finnish group I said of above.

                                                Hi Ualarus and Vladimir,

                                                There is an earlier Germanic people according to the earlier
                                                researchers supposed to have settled the area before the Goths. This
                                                is of course before the present tendency to see a pure native
                                                developement between the different cultures in present Wielbark - a
                                                tendency which I partly oppose since it excludes any outside
                                                interference. This people is supposed to be the Bastarni and also in a
                                                discussed relation to them the Sciri.

                                                Best
                                                Ingemar






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                                              • Guenther Ramm
                                                Hi Vladimir! As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud’... You seem to mistrust your
                                                Message 23 of 27 , May 24, 2006
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                                                  Hi Vladimir!

                                                  As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud’...
                                                  You seem to mistrust your colleagues at the Academy of Sciences, so I’ll confine myself with Max Vasmer. He’s not Russian and therefore maybe less likely to participate with that scientists’ conspiracy you told of :) His Russisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch was published in 1950-1958 in Heidelberg and re-edited in 1986-1987 by Moscow “Progress” publishing house. He asserts as well (vol. 4, p. 378) that _chud’_ is a name of the Old Finns once populating regions of Pskov, Novgorod, Archangelsk and Olonets, and that the primordial meaning of the word is usually held to be “Germanen” with its origin brought back to Gothic thiuda.
                                                  Regarding the “Chudskoye” (Peipus) lake, it was not his idea to explain it from Gothic *thiudisks saiws “Deutscher See” as I wrongly said but that of the “Learned Estonian Society in Dorpat” (Sitzber. der Gel. Estn. Ges., 1920: 112) which he cites (ibidem), however critically. He reports also the lake’s popular name Chukhonskoye ozero.
                                                  Here I’d like to adduce another source. It is Russian-Estonian dictionary (Wene-Eesti Sõnaraamat. - Jurjew (Tartu): K. A. Raag’i kirjastus, 1904), p. 1015, where Russ. _chukhna_ is defined as follows: “so Russians call in general Finnish-related peoples of the Baltic Sea region – Estonians, Finns and others, including those Finns living around St.-Petersburg” (nõnda nimetawad wenelased üleüldse Läänemere-äärseid Soomesugu rahwaid - eestlasi, soomlasi j.t., iseäranis aga Peterburi ümber asuwaid soomlasi); hence _chukhonets_ M., _chukhonka_ F. “Finn, Estonian” (soomlane, eestlane); _chukhonski_ Adj. “Finnish, Estonian” (Soome-, Eesti-). With regard to _chukhna_ being a debased form of _chud’_, it wouldn’t look very convincing to assume that these semantics in spoken Russian could have resulted from a suspected historic prejudice in Russian scientific circles. It seems much more probable that this meaning has been retained in vulgo since the times of the first contacts
                                                  between the Slavs and the Finns in this region.
                                                  Incidentally, Vasmer denies a Finnish etymology for “Volga” (vol. 1, p. 336-7) leading it together with Czech Vlha (the Elbe basin) and Polish Wilga (the Vistula basin) back to PSl. *Vilga (reduced -i-), cognate to OChSl _vlaga_ “moisture” (different ablaut stages) and words of other IE languages with similar meanings. It’s not Volga but Vologda which comes from Vepsä våuged (< *valkeða), Fin. valkea, Est. valge “white” (p. 340)
                                                  Regarding that RA of Ptolemy, it was not my idea of connecting it with Avestan Rangha and Sanskrit Rasa but Vasmer’s (it just remained nameless in my memory after reading it some time ago). Looking at Mordvin names of Volga - Rav, Ravo, Rava (ibidem) - one could really suppose some Gothic mediating form like *Rahva or *Rawi... Btw. Tatars use Kara Idyl (“black Itil”) alongside with Idyl alone for Volga as distinguished from Ak Idyl “Kama” or “Belaya” (ibidem).
                                                  To finish with Vasmer, on p. 346 he tells of Swedish Ålhava “Volkhov river” attested in a 16th century record < Fin. Olhavanjoki, Olhava.

                                                  Ualarauans

                                                  P.S. Didn’t that nazi think-tank von Braun work for the U. S. after 1945?


                                                  åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@...> wrote:
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                                                • Егоров Владимир
                                                  Hi Ualarauans! Long citations from Vasmer are hardly a best filling for the correspondence, especially if they do not clarify the matter. A lot of water has
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , May 24, 2006
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                                                    Hi Ualarauans!

                                                    Long citations from Vasmer are hardly a best filling for the correspondence, especially if they do not clarify the matter. A lot of water has run away in Volga and Volkhov since Vasmer's times. No doubt, we know much more than Vasmer regarding the first millennium AD. I'd like to obtain some new evidences on the Germanic past of modern Northwest Russia and East Baltic region, if anybody has them.

                                                    Vladimir

                                                    P.S. Yes, same von Braun. Nazi? Maybe, but I gather not more than, for example, his Soviet colleague Korolyov was a communist. Both were first of all gifted engineers ready to tune themselves up in order to have possibility to busy with the favorite work.


                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                    Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:53 PM
                                                    To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos jah Thiudos


                                                    Hi Vladimir!

                                                    As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud'...
                                                    You seem to mistrust your colleagues at the Academy of Sciences, so I'll confine myself with Max Vasmer. He's not Russian and therefore maybe less likely to participate with that scientists' conspiracy you told of :) His Russisches Etymologisches Wцrterbuch was published in 1950-1958 in Heidelberg and re-edited in 1986-1987 by Moscow "Progress" publishing house. He asserts as well (vol. 4, p. 378) that _chud'_ is a name of the Old Finns once populating regions of Pskov, Novgorod, Archangelsk and Olonets, and that the primordial meaning of the word is usually held to be "Germanen" with its origin brought back to Gothic thiuda.
                                                    Regarding the "Chudskoye" (Peipus) lake, it was not his idea to explain it from Gothic *thiudisks saiws "Deutscher See" as I wrongly said but that of the "Learned Estonian Society in Dorpat" (Sitzber. der Gel. Estn. Ges., 1920: 112) which he cites (ibidem), however critically. He reports also the lake's popular name Chukhonskoye ozero.
                                                    Here I'd like to adduce another source. It is Russian-Estonian dictionary (Wene-Eesti Sхnaraamat. - Jurjew (Tartu): K. A. Raag'i kirjastus, 1904), p. 1015, where Russ. _chukhna_ is defined as follows: "so Russians call in general Finnish-related peoples of the Baltic Sea region - Estonians, Finns and others, including those Finns living around St.-Petersburg" (nхnda nimetawad wenelased ьleьldse Lддnemere-ддrseid Soomesugu rahwaid - eestlasi, soomlasi j.t., iseдranis aga Peterburi ьmber asuwaid soomlasi); hence _chukhonets_ M., _chukhonka_ F. "Finn, Estonian" (soomlane, eestlane); _chukhonski_ Adj. "Finnish, Estonian" (Soome-, Eesti-). With regard to _chukhna_ being a debased form of _chud'_, it wouldn't look very convincing to assume that these semantics in spoken Russian could have resulted from a suspected historic prejudice in Russian scientific circles. It seems much more probable that this meaning has been retained in vulgo since the times of the first contacts
                                                    between the Slavs and the Finns in this region.
                                                    Incidentally, Vasmer denies a Finnish etymology for "Volga" (vol. 1, p. 336-7) leading it together with Czech Vlha (the Elbe basin) and Polish Wilga (the Vistula basin) back to PSl. *Vilga (reduced -i-), cognate to OChSl _vlaga_ "moisture" (different ablaut stages) and words of other IE languages with similar meanings. It's not Volga but Vologda which comes from Vepsд vеuged (< *valkeрa), Fin. valkea, Est. valge "white" (p. 340)
                                                    Regarding that RA of Ptolemy, it was not my idea of connecting it with Avestan Rangha and Sanskrit Rasa but Vasmer's (it just remained nameless in my memory after reading it some time ago). Looking at Mordvin names of Volga - Rav, Ravo, Rava (ibidem) - one could really suppose some Gothic mediating form like *Rahva or *Rawi... Btw. Tatars use Kara Idyl ("black Itil") alongside with Idyl alone for Volga as distinguished from Ak Idyl "Kama" or "Belaya" (ibidem).
                                                    To finish with Vasmer, on p. 346 he tells of Swedish Еlhava "Volkhov river" attested in a 16th century record < Fin. Olhavanjoki, Olhava.

                                                    Ualarauans

                                                    P.S. Didn't that nazi think-tank von Braun work for the U. S. after 1945?


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                                                  • Guenther Ramm
                                                    I guess it doesn’t take a genius “to clarify the matter”. What so much more do you know, Vladimir, neither to respect an academic authority nor to heed a
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , May 24, 2006
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                                                      I guess it doesn’t take a genius “to clarify the matter”. What so much more do you know, Vladimir, neither to respect an academic authority nor to heed a minimum etiquette in polemics? I was well aware of the existence of that kind of self-hating nazi-loving persons around Germanic topics, but I didn’t expect to meet them here.

                                                      Ualarauans


                                                      åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@...> wrote: Hi Ualarauans!

                                                      Long citations from Vasmer are hardly a best filling for the correspondence, especially if they do not clarify the matter. A lot of water has run away in Volga and Volkhov since Vasmer's times. No doubt, we know much more than Vasmer regarding the first millennium AD. I'd like to obtain some new evidences on the Germanic past of modern Northwest Russia and East Baltic region, if anybody has them.

                                                      Vladimir

                                                      P.S. Yes, same von Braun. Nazi? Maybe, but I gather not more than, for example, his Soviet colleague Korolyov was a communist. Both were first of all gifted engineers ready to tune themselves up in order to have possibility to busy with the favorite work.


                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                      Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:53 PM
                                                      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos jah Thiudos


                                                      Hi Vladimir!

                                                      As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud'...
                                                      You seem to mistrust your colleagues at the Academy of Sciences, so I'll confine myself with Max Vasmer. He's not Russian and therefore maybe less likely to participate with that scientists' conspiracy you told of :) His Russisches Etymologisches WÃrterbuch was published in 1950-1958 in Heidelberg and re-edited in 1986-1987 by Moscow "Progress" publishing house. He asserts as well (vol. 4, p. 378) that _chud'_ is a name of the Old Finns once populating regions of Pskov, Novgorod, Archangelsk and Olonets, and that the primordial meaning of the word is usually held to be "Germanen" with its origin brought back to Gothic thiuda.
                                                      Regarding the "Chudskoye" (Peipus) lake, it was not his idea to explain it from Gothic *thiudisks saiws "Deutscher See" as I wrongly said but that of the "Learned Estonian Society in Dorpat" (Sitzber. der Gel. Estn. Ges., 1920: 112) which he cites (ibidem), however critically. He reports also the lake's popular name Chukhonskoye ozero.
                                                      Here I'd like to adduce another source. It is Russian-Estonian dictionary (Wene-Eesti SÈnaraamat. - Jurjew (Tartu): K. A. Raag'i kirjastus, 1904), p. 1015, where Russ. _chukhna_ is defined as follows: "so Russians call in general Finnish-related peoples of the Baltic Sea region - Estonians, Finns and others, including those Finns living around St.-Petersburg" (nÈnda nimetawad wenelased ØleØldse LÄÄnemere-ÄÄrseid Soomesugu rahwaid - eestlasi, soomlasi j.t., iseÄranis aga Peterburi Ømber asuwaid soomlasi); hence _chukhonets_ M., _chukhonka_ F. "Finn, Estonian" (soomlane, eestlane); _chukhonski_ Adj. "Finnish, Estonian" (Soome-, Eesti-). With regard to _chukhna_ being a debased form of _chud'_, it wouldn't look very convincing to assume that these semantics in spoken Russian could have resulted from a suspected historic prejudice in Russian scientific circles. It seems much more probable that this meaning has been retained in vulgo since the times of the first contacts
                                                      between the Slavs and the Finns in this region.
                                                      Incidentally, Vasmer denies a Finnish etymology for "Volga" (vol. 1, p. 336-7) leading it together with Czech Vlha (the Elbe basin) and Polish Wilga (the Vistula basin) back to PSl. *Vilga (reduced -i-), cognate to OChSl _vlaga_ "moisture" (different ablaut stages) and words of other IE languages with similar meanings. It's not Volga but Vologda which comes from VepsÄ vÅuged (< *valkeÒa), Fin. valkea, Est. valge "white" (p. 340)
                                                      Regarding that RA of Ptolemy, it was not my idea of connecting it with Avestan Rangha and Sanskrit Rasa but Vasmer's (it just remained nameless in my memory after reading it some time ago). Looking at Mordvin names of Volga - Rav, Ravo, Rava (ibidem) - one could really suppose some Gothic mediating form like *Rahva or *Rawi... Btw. Tatars use Kara Idyl ("black Itil") alongside with Idyl alone for Volga as distinguished from Ak Idyl "Kama" or "Belaya" (ibidem).
                                                      To finish with Vasmer, on p. 346 he tells of Swedish ålhava "Volkhov river" attested in a 16th century record < Fin. Olhavanjoki, Olhava.

                                                      Ualarauans

                                                      P.S. Didn't that nazi think-tank von Braun work for the U. S. after 1945?


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                                                    • Егоров Владимир
                                                      Sorry, Ualarauans, if I accidentally touched your feelings. I dare assure you I am neither self-hating nor nazi-loving, and the topic I am interesting in is
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , May 24, 2006
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                                                        Sorry, Ualarauans, if I accidentally touched your feelings. I dare assure you I am neither self-hating nor nazi-loving, and the topic I am interesting in is rather Russian than Germanic. Anyhow, no offence was meant from my part. Excuse me once more.

                                                        Vladimir


                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                        Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:18 PM
                                                        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos jah Thiudos


                                                        I guess it doesn't take a genius "to clarify the matter". What so much more do you know, Vladimir, neither to respect an academic authority nor to heed a minimum etiquette in polemics? I was well aware of the existence of that kind of self-hating nazi-loving persons around Germanic topics, but I didn't expect to meet them here.

                                                        Ualarauans


                                                        еЗПТПЧ чМБДЙНЙТ <vegorov@...> wrote: Hi Ualarauans!

                                                        Long citations from Vasmer are hardly a best filling for the correspondence, especially if they do not clarify the matter. A lot of water has run away in Volga and Volkhov since Vasmer's times. No doubt, we know much more than Vasmer regarding the first millennium AD. I'd like to obtain some new evidences on the Germanic past of modern Northwest Russia and East Baltic region, if anybody has them.

                                                        Vladimir

                                                        P.S. Yes, same von Braun. Nazi? Maybe, but I gather not more than, for example, his Soviet colleague Korolyov was a communist. Both were first of all gifted engineers ready to tune themselves up in order to have possibility to busy with the favorite work.


                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                        Behalf Of Guenther Ramm
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:53 PM
                                                        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos jah Thiudos


                                                        Hi Vladimir!

                                                        As a fulfillment of my own prophecy to provide some etymologic reference on that controversial matter about chud'...
                                                        You seem to mistrust your colleagues at the Academy of Sciences, so I'll confine myself with Max Vasmer. He's not Russian and therefore maybe less likely to participate with that scientists' conspiracy you told of :) His Russisches Etymologisches WГrterbuch was published in 1950-1958 in Heidelberg and re-edited in 1986-1987 by Moscow "Progress" publishing house. He asserts as well (vol. 4, p. 378) that _chud'_ is a name of the Old Finns once populating regions of Pskov, Novgorod, Archangelsk and Olonets, and that the primordial meaning of the word is usually held to be "Germanen" with its origin brought back to Gothic thiuda.
                                                        Regarding the "Chudskoye" (Peipus) lake, it was not his idea to explain it from Gothic *thiudisks saiws "Deutscher See" as I wrongly said but that of the "Learned Estonian Society in Dorpat" (Sitzber. der Gel. Estn. Ges., 1920: 112) which he cites (ibidem), however critically. He reports also the lake's popular name Chukhonskoye ozero.
                                                        Here I'd like to adduce another source. It is Russian-Estonian dictionary (Wene-Eesti SИnaraamat. - Jurjew (Tartu): K. A. Raag'i kirjastus, 1904), p. 1015, where Russ. _chukhna_ is defined as follows: "so Russians call in general Finnish-related peoples of the Baltic Sea region - Estonians, Finns and others, including those Finns living around St.-Petersburg" (nИnda nimetawad wenelased ШleШldse LДДnemere-ДДrseid Soomesugu rahwaid - eestlasi, soomlasi j.t., iseДranis aga Peterburi Шmber asuwaid soomlasi); hence _chukhonets_ M., _chukhonka_ F. "Finn, Estonian" (soomlane, eestlane); _chukhonski_ Adj. "Finnish, Estonian" (Soome-, Eesti-). With regard to _chukhna_ being a debased form of _chud'_, it wouldn't look very convincing to assume that these semantics in spoken Russian could have resulted from a suspected historic prejudice in Russian scientific circles. It seems much more probable that this meaning has been retained in vulgo since the times of the first contacts
                                                        between the Slavs and the Finns in this region.
                                                        Incidentally, Vasmer denies a Finnish etymology for "Volga" (vol. 1, p. 336-7) leading it together with Czech Vlha (the Elbe basin) and Polish Wilga (the Vistula basin) back to PSl. *Vilga (reduced -i-), cognate to OChSl _vlaga_ "moisture" (different ablaut stages) and words of other IE languages with similar meanings. It's not Volga but Vologda which comes from VepsД vЕuged (< *valkeТa), Fin. valkea, Est. valge "white" (p. 340)
                                                        Regarding that RA of Ptolemy, it was not my idea of connecting it with Avestan Rangha and Sanskrit Rasa but Vasmer's (it just remained nameless in my memory after reading it some time ago). Looking at Mordvin names of Volga - Rav, Ravo, Rava (ibidem) - one could really suppose some Gothic mediating form like *Rahva or *Rawi... Btw. Tatars use Kara Idyl ("black Itil") alongside with Idyl alone for Volga as distinguished from Ak Idyl "Kama" or "Belaya" (ibidem).
                                                        To finish with Vasmer, on p. 346 he tells of Swedish еlhava "Volkhov river" attested in a 16th century record < Fin. Olhavanjoki, Olhava.

                                                        Ualarauans

                                                        P.S. Didn't that nazi think-tank von Braun work for the U. S. after 1945?


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                                                      • llama_nom
                                                        ... you ... are ... form ... which ... Fredrik, I just came across a paper about the origin of the tones used in modern Scandinavian languages [
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Jun 28, 2006
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                                                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:

                                                          > Now when talking bout pronunciation I must ask about something I
                                                          > really dont know anything about, and therefor not any terminology.
                                                          > It is about tones.
                                                          >
                                                          > Coz I dont know any names for tones I try to describe it and hope
                                                          you
                                                          > know enough swedish to understand me :)
                                                          >
                                                          > In swedish there are these two word "stället" and "stället" which
                                                          are
                                                          > pronounced almost the same. The only difference is the tones.
                                                          > Both words are singular definite forms and the first is definite
                                                          form
                                                          > of "ställ" ( = rack) and the second of "ställe" ( = place).
                                                          >
                                                          > If you know the difference of the tones in these definite forms
                                                          which
                                                          > one is used in gothic.
                                                          > I think I pronounce gothic very much as how it would be in swedish,
                                                          > with the tones I mean.


                                                          Fredrik, I just came across a paper about the origin of the tones used
                                                          in modern Scandinavian languages [
                                                          http://www.hum.uit.no/a/bye/Papers/pitch-accent-kluw.pdf ]. I haven't
                                                          read it all yet, but it discusses two theories. In one the two
                                                          lexical tone patterns could go back to c. 800, in the other theory to
                                                          c. 1000 or soon after. The paper argues in favour of the later date.
                                                          The reason that the system isn't thought to be earlier than this is
                                                          that the distinction in the modern Scandinavian languages corresponds
                                                          to the syllabic pattern of the word in Old Norse: words with one
                                                          syllable in Old Norse gave rise to one tone pattern, words with more
                                                          syllables to the other (the suffixed definite article isn't counted,
                                                          so words that had one syllable in Old Norse + the definite article
                                                          still have the tone of one syllable words). But in the 4th c. North
                                                          Germanic still had many unstressed syllables that had been lost by
                                                          800-1000, so the different syllabic structures which correspond to the
                                                          different tones had yet to emerge at the time when the Gothic bible
                                                          was translated. Although Gothic had lost a few more of these
                                                          unstressed syllables than North Germanic at this time (Go. hunds : NG
                                                          hundaz), it still didn't have exactly the same syllabic patterns as
                                                          Old Norse (Go. sunus : ON sonr/sunr), so presumably it didn't have
                                                          exactly the same tone distinction found nowadays in Norway and Sweden.
                                                          Of course Gothic might have distinguished words by tone using a
                                                          system of its own similar to the one that appeared later in
                                                          Scandinavia, or maybe it didn't. We'll probably never know.

                                                          Llama Nom
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