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  • Guenther Ramm
    ... Hungarian historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery. Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german. Dear Ciurchea, I
    Message 1 of 5 , May 13, 2006
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      dciurchea <dciurchea@...> wrote:
      > I am not in agreement nor with Romanian historians, nor with

      Hungarian historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery.

      Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german.


      Dear Ciurchea, I wonder is there any strong reason to so unconditionally associate Old Thracian and today’s Romanian which is all Romance and no way other? It is Albanian (Shqiptar), I guess, which may nowadays claim (linguistically) an Illyro-Thracian origin. Were Dacians Thracian? Anyway, to say Romanians are pure descendants of them would mean to ignore the Roman, Greek, Slavic, Magyar etc. inputs. Even East-Germanic tribes paid their contribution, as is seen from a number of Gothic loanwords in today’s Romanian (I mean Gothic in broader sense – they can be Gepidic as well). The Gut-thiuda of the Calendar was most likely situated north of the Danube (ripa Gothica of contemporary historiographs) in what is now Muntenia. The word that the Goths seemingly used to refer to the natives of the land was *Walhos M. –a Pl., which is common Germanic name of Celtic and Romance peoples (up to NE Wales and NHG welsch) and indicates pretty well that this post-Dacian population had
      been already Romanized after less than 200 years of the Imperial Rule. Being borrowed by succeeding Slavs as vlakhu (see also BLACOI in medieval Byzantine sources) it produced Walachia which was changed to Romania as a name of the land only in the 19th century, perhaps to emphasize the Roman heritage after gaining the independence. If I error please correct me.


      > The Gepid fonem in Jordannes(Ce piz... or Ce pid.. in Romanian ) is

      actuall an insult, "what the heck" in Romanian, addressed by the two

      brothers to the third, more slow.


      Again, is this phrase Romanian or reconstructed Thracian? (and what do we know then about Old-Thracian?) If it is Modern Romanian, how about the fact that Jordanes wrote in the 6th century when the East-Romance dialects were probably not more than a sort of vernacular not much different from the Vulgar Latin spoken throughout the Empire? I can easily mistake here since I’m not an expert in Romanics and at any rate I hope there’s nothing offensive in what I’ve said. And how would you explain then the evidence of OE which has Gifdas?
      This etymologizing cannot help reminding of Isidor and his deriving Gepids as “Gipedes” from Lat. pes, pedis with the meaning “those preferring to walk on foot” (and therefore always slow?) or something like that. It shows well that the name of Gepids was and still is an enigma.
      The real crux about this name, I guess, is this –p- which is unanimously fixed by Roman and Greek writers while the OE form presumes Gothic –b-. Be it *Gibidos or *Gabideis – why > Gepides et sim.? And the form Gepedoios in Getica – doesn’t it speak in favor of Gothic –p-?


      > This is important as I see the

      gothic mythology derived from the Getic customs, i.e. the mythology

      of my ancestors, now lost.



      That’s interesting. Is there any evidence for it? And how much is known of what the Goths REALLY believed in, besides the ethnogenetic myth around *Gauts (I’m sorry still failing to get to Ingemar Nordgren’s book dealing with the subject). Of cause we can reconstruct names like *Wodans, *Thunr(u)s, *Friddi and the like, but were they familiar to Goths? Their wanderings and intercourse with many non-Germanic tribes and cultures must have left a definite stamp on their beliefs. I read somewhere that those of them who had wandered deep into Hellas started to adore its old pagan altars rather than become Christian, it being their way to get naturalized in the new homeland. Does anybody know something about it?

      Hlutramma hairtin

      Walahrabns

      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • llama_nom
      ... unanimously fixed by Roman and Greek writers while the OE form presumes Gothic –b-. Be it *Gibidos or *Gabideis – why Gepides et sim.? And the form
      Message 2 of 5 , May 14, 2006
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...>
        wrote:

        > The real crux about this name, I guess, is this –p- which is
        unanimously fixed
        by Roman and Greek writers while the OE form presumes Gothic –b-. Be
        it *Gibidos
        or *Gabideis – why > Gepides et sim.? And the form Gepedoios in
        Getica – doesn't
        it speak in favor of Gothic –p-?


        There a handful of Gothic names transcribed in Latin with 'p' where
        the proposed reconstruction has /f/.

        Paria : *Farja
        Pantardus : *Fant(a-h)ardus
        Optila : *Uftila (cf. Ufita-hari in the Naples deed)
        Optarit : *Ufta-reþs

        More often Go. /f/ is transcribed as Lat. 'f' or 'ph'. The latter
        was also used to transcribe Greek phi, which is supposed to have
        been a voiceless bilabial fricative at this time. OE -f- could
        correspond to either Go. /f/ or /b/.
      • dciurchea
        I thank you for reading my post. The first (visible) benefit of analysis of gothic language is the link and relationship with today s German. Thus one may
        Message 3 of 5 , May 14, 2006
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          I thank you for reading my post. The first (visible) benefit of analysis
          of 'gothic' language is the link and relationship with today's German.
          Thus one may hope that other antic data of known origin may be debugged
          by using today's fonems also. Since I can't post pictures and docs in
          the Files folder, in the following days I shall develop posts with
          pictures in my personal forum
          (http://duci.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~72.asp-now
          <http://duci.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~72.asp-now> in romanian will be
          doubbed as 'the gothic connection'). I invite you to see the arguments
          and pictures there.

          I am not recomposing old Thracian, but using local fonems; my point is
          that:

          a) in Transylvania (antic Dacia - not all Romania) the person's family
          name is formed as a derivate of the village;

          b) toponimics are conserved through time by shepherds

          This is a way to order some hystorical data and to identify some useful
          fonems.

          With respect to the Dacian's (Getic) religion little is known, except
          for Zalmoxis (the chief god) and Kogaion (the sacred mountain).
          Trajan's Column presents Dacians with some boxes in hand, which should
          be the 'ancestor's relics boxes' - essential in christianism and the
          basics of gothic ancestry. The cult of ancestors should have been very
          powerfull. Still today the orhodoxian Church is organising 6-7 days of
          pilgrimage to the saint remains of local saints. The Dacians chiefs had
          a phrygian cap-indicating again their thracian origin.

          I shall post an exercept of the classics: Strabo ("Getae were
          Thracians") and Jordannes ( "Getae and Gepidae are kinsmen"). Please
          observe the cathegory of Getae 'basileians', which are exactly the
          dacians-with huge gold mines- conquered by Trajan in 106AD.

          ----------------
          The Geography of Strabo , published in the Loeb Classical Library, 1924
          , Book VII, Chapter 3

          2 Now the Greeks used to suppose that the Getae were Thracians; and the
          Getae lived on either side the Ister, as did also the Mysi, these also
          being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi;
          from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians
          and the Phrygians and Trojans. And the Phrygians themselves are
          Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians,
          the Medobithynians,59 the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think,
          also the Mariandynians.
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
          -------------------------------

          Folklore (from N. Savescu "Noi nu suntem urmasii Romei"):

          Macedonean Dialect Romanian
          Cari-n'i bati, noaptea Cine-mi bate noaptea
          La firida mea, moi? La fereastra mea, mai?
          Io huia, msata Marioara Eu sunt, frumoasa Marioara
          Nu-n'i ti-aspirea, moi. Nu te speria, mai.
          Scoal aprond'i lampa Scoala de-aprinde lampa
          S-ti vedua fata ta, Sa-ti vad fata ta
          Fata ta tea alb-arosi Fata ta cea alb`-rosie
          Ca trandafila. Ca de trandafir.

          See also:
          http://www.vlahoi.gr/vlahs.asp?RFRM=http://www.vlahoi.gr/history.htm
          <http://www.vlahoi.gr/vlahs.asp?RFRM=http://www.vlahoi.gr/history.htm>
          http://www.vlachs.gr/uk/index-uk.htm
          <http://www.vlachs.gr/uk/index-uk.htm>
          http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/vlachs.html
          <http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/vlachs.html>

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
          ---------------------------------
          12 But there is also another division of the country which has endured
          from early times, for some of the people are called Daci, whereas others
          are called Getae — Getae, those who incline towards the Pontus and
          the east, and Daci, those who incline in the opposite direction towards
          Germany and the sources of the Ister. The Daci, I think, were called
          Daï in early times; whence the slave names "Geta" and "Daüs"156
          which prevailed among the Attic people; for this is more probable than
          that "Daüs" is from those Scythians who are called "Daae," for they
          live far away in the neighbourhood of Hyrcania, and it is not reasonable
          to suppose that slaves were brought into Attica from there…
          13. … Be that as it may, although the Getae and Daci once attained
          to very great power, so that they actually could send forth an
          expedition of two hundred thousand men, they now find themselves reduced
          to as few as forty thousand, and they have come close to the point of
          yielding obedience to the Romans, though as yet they are not absolutely
          submissive, because of the hopes which they base on the Germans, who are
          enemies to the Romans.
          17 … seaboard between the Borysthenes and the Ister consists,
          first, of the Desert of the Getae; Today Dobrudja
          then the country of the Tyregetans;  Today Moldavia and Muntenia
          and after it the country of the Iazygian Sarmatians  Today North
          and East Transylvania
          and that of the people called the Basileians  Today Banat and The
          East Carpathians and The Somes Valley, around the gold mines = Dacia =
          what Trajan Conquered in 106AD. See the (basileus) adoration of Trajan
          on the Column
          and that of the Urgi, who in general are nomads,
          though a few are interested also in farming; these people, it is said,
          dwell also along the Ister, often on both sides. In the interior dwell,
          first, those Bastarnians whose country borders on that of the Tyregetans
          and Germans — they also being, one might say, of Germanic stock; and
          they are divided up into several tribes, for a part of them are called
          Atmoni and Sidoni, while those who took possession of Peuce, the island
          in the Ister, are called "Peucini," whereas the "Roxolani" (the most
          northerly of them all) roam the plains between the Tanaïs and the
          Borysthenes. In fact, the whole country towards the north from Germany
          as far as the Caspian Sea is, so far as we know it, a plain, but whether
          any people dwell beyond the Roxolani we do not know. Now the Roxolani,
          under the leadership of Tasius, carried on war even with the generals of
          Mithridates Eupator; they came for the purpose of assisting Palacus, the
          son of Scilurus, as his allies, and they had the reputation of being
          warlike; ..……..

          Jordannes (The Project Gutenberg eBook, The Origin and Deeds of the
          Goths, by Jordanes, Translated by Charles C. Mierow):

          XVII ........ Should you ask how the Getae and Gepidae are kinsmen, I
          can tell you in a few words. You surely remember that in the beginning I
          said the Goths went forth from the bosom of the island of Scandza with
          Berig, their king, sailing in only three ships toward the hither shore
          of Ocean, namely to Gothiscandza. One of these three ships proved to be
          slower than the others, as is usually the case, and thus is said to have
          given the tribe their name, for in their language _gepanta_ means slow.
          Hence it came to pass that gradually and by corruption the name Gepidae
          was coined for them by way of reproach. For undoubtedly they too trace
          their origin from the stock of the Goths, but because, as I have said,
          _gepanta_ means something slow and stolid, the word Gepidae arose as a
          gratuitous name of reproach. I do not believe this is very far wrong,
          for they are slow of thought and too sluggish for quick movement of
          their bodies.



          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com> ,
          Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > dciurchea <dciurchea@...> wrote:
          > > I am not in agreement nor with Romanian historians, nor with
          >
          > Hungarian historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery.
          >
          > Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german.
          >
          >
          > Dear Ciurchea, I wonder is there any strong reason to so
          unconditionally associate Old Thracian and today's Romanian which is
          all Romance and no way other? It is Albanian (Shqiptar), I guess, which
          may nowadays claim (linguistically) an Illyro-Thracian origin. Were
          Dacians Thracian? Anyway, to say Romanians are pure descendants of them
          would mean to ignore the Roman, Greek, Slavic, Magyar etc. inputs. Even
          East-Germanic tribes paid their contribution, as is seen from a number
          of Gothic loanwords in today's Romanian (I mean Gothic in broader
          sense – they can be Gepidic as well). The Gut-thiuda of the Calendar
          was most likely situated north of the Danube (ripa Gothica of
          contemporary historiographs) in what is now Muntenia. The word that the
          Goths seemingly used to refer to the natives of the land was *Walhos M.
          –a Pl., which is common Germanic name of Celtic and Romance peoples
          (up to NE Wales and NHG welsch) and indicates pretty well that this
          post-Dacian population had
          > been already Romanized after less than 200 years of the Imperial
          Rule. Being borrowed by succeeding Slavs as vlakhu (see also BLACOI in
          medieval Byzantine sources) it produced Walachia which was changed to
          Romania as a name of the land only in the 19th century, perhaps to
          emphasize the Roman heritage after gaining the independence. If I error
          please correct me.
          >
          >
          > > The Gepid fonem in Jordannes(Ce piz... or Ce pid.. in Romanian ) is
          >
          > actuall an insult, "what the heck" in Romanian, addressed by the two
          >
          > brothers to the third, more slow.
          >
          >
          > Again, is this phrase Romanian or reconstructed Thracian? (and what
          do we know then about Old-Thracian?) If it is Modern Romanian, how about
          the fact that Jordanes wrote in the 6th century when the East-Romance
          dialects were probably not more than a sort of vernacular not much
          different from the Vulgar Latin spoken throughout the Empire? I can
          easily mistake here since I'm not an expert in Romanics and at any
          rate I hope there's nothing offensive in what I've said. And how
          would you explain then the evidence of OE which has Gifdas?
          > This etymologizing cannot help reminding of Isidor and his deriving
          Gepids as "Gipedes" from Lat. pes, pedis with the meaning
          "those preferring to walk on foot" (and therefore always slow?)
          or something like that. It shows well that the name of Gepids was and
          still is an enigma.
          > The real crux about this name, I guess, is this –p- which is
          unanimously fixed by Roman and Greek writers while the OE form presumes
          Gothic –b-. Be it *Gibidos or *Gabideis – why > Gepides et sim.?
          And the form Gepedoios in Getica – doesn't it speak in favor of
          Gothic –p-?
          >
          >
          > > This is important as I see the
          >
          > gothic mythology derived from the Getic customs, i.e. the mythology
          >
          > of my ancestors, now lost.
          >
          >
          >
          > That's interesting. Is there any evidence for it? And how much is
          known of what the Goths REALLY believed in, besides the ethnogenetic
          myth around *Gauts (I'm sorry still failing to get to Ingemar
          Nordgren's book dealing with the subject). Of cause we can
          reconstruct names like *Wodans, *Thunr(u)s, *Friddi and the like, but
          were they familiar to Goths? Their wanderings and intercourse with many
          non-Germanic tribes and cultures must have left a definite stamp on
          their beliefs. I read somewhere that those of them who had wandered deep
          into Hellas started to adore its old pagan altars rather than become
          Christian, it being their way to get naturalized in the new homeland.
          Does anybody know something about it?
          >
          > Hlutramma hairtin
          >
          > Walahrabns
          >
          > Send instant messages to your online friends
          http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com <http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Francisc Czobor
          Bine ai venit la Lista Gotica! Ideile tale s-ar putea sa nu gaseasca prea multi admiratori pe aici, deoarece toti (inclusiv eu) stiu ca limba gotica era o
          Message 4 of 5 , May 15, 2006
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            Bine ai venit la Lista Gotica!
            Ideile tale s-ar putea sa nu gaseasca prea multi admiratori pe aici,
            deoarece toti (inclusiv eu) stiu ca limba gotica era o limba in mod
            evident germanica, pe cand getii erau traci. Au mai fost discutii de
            acest gen pe aici.

            Salutari din Bucuresti,
            Francisc

            For the other members of the Gothic-L: this is not Gothic, but
            Romanian.
            The translation is:

            Welcome to the Gothic List!
            Your ideas may not find much fans over here, because all (including
            me) know that Gothic was a Germanic language, whereas the Getae were
            Thracians. There were already such discussion on this list.



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "dciurchea" <dciurchea@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear all, happy to meet you.
            > I am D. Ciurchea from Romania, I am a physicist and a beginner
            > historian having a few fresh look ideeas about Gets(and perhaps
            > Goths) living in Transylvania. I have posted some ideas on the
            Skadi
            > forum.
            > I am not in agreement nor with Romanian historians, nor with
            > Hungarian historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery.
            > Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german.
            > Please see my Skadi postings. I could repost them here if
            necessary;
            > nothing offensive.
            > The Gepid fonem in Jordannes(Ce piz... or Ce pid.. in Romanian )
            is
            > actuall an insult, "what the heck" in Romanian, addressed by the
            two
            > brothers to the third, more slow.
            > I have already find an interesting thread in this group, the gothic
            > religion, less centered on language. This is important as I see the
            > gothic mythology derived from the Getic customs, i.e. the mythology
            > of my ancestors, now lost.
            >
            > If I can be of assistance please let me know.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            > D. Ciurchea
            >
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