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Some questions for you who might know

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  • Fredrik
    Hi fellas...hope you are reading this. The activity ain t on top nowadays. What is the real meaning of the word aiz? I have seen both brass, bronze and
    Message 1 of 8 , May 11, 2006
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      Hi fellas...hope you are reading this.
      The activity ain't on top nowadays.

      What is the real meaning of the word aiz?

      I have seen both brass, bronze and coin/money.
      Perhaps also metal and ore.

      As you know there's a difference between brass and bronze and if the
      meaning is some of em it couldnt also be metal.

      What ever you think it mean, I'd like you to come up with some ideas of
      the other words.




      /Fredrik
    • llama_nom
      Go. aiz (i.e. *ais) occurs just once (Mk 6:8). jah faurbauþ im ei waiht ni nemeina in wig, niba hrugga aina, nih matibalg nih hlaif nih in gairdos aiz
      Message 2 of 8 , May 11, 2006
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        Go. 'aiz' (i.e. *ais) occurs just once (Mk 6:8).

        jah faurbauþ im ei waiht ni nemeina in wig, niba hrugga aina, nih
        matibalg nih hlaif nih in gairdos aiz

        "forbade them to take anything on the way, except one staff, neither
        a bag for food, nor bread, nor money in their belts"

        According to Strong's bible dictionary, CALKOS means "copper (the
        substance, or some implement or coin made of it)" or "brass"
        or "money" [
        http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRGRK54.htm ]
        . The Gothic word is given as a neuter a-stem by Streitberg, on the
        basis of cognates, although from this one example the declension and
        gender aren't clear. The OED gives the meaning of the Old English
        cognate as "brass, bronze, copper", which are indeed different
        things, but presumably the word could be used for any of them:

        "Old English âr brass, bronze, copper, is cognate with Middle Dutch
        eer, ere copper, metal, Old Saxon êr brass (Middle Low German êr, re
        metal, copper, brass), Old High German êr brass (Middle High German
        êr brass, iron), Old Icelandic eir brass, copper, Old Swedish ér
        copper, bronze, early modern Danish eer copper, ore, Gothic aiz
        money, metal coin < the same Indo-European base as Sanskrit ayas
        (base) metal, classical Latin aer-, aes brass."




        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi fellas...hope you are reading this.
        > The activity ain't on top nowadays.
        >
        > What is the real meaning of the word aiz?
        >
        > I have seen both brass, bronze and coin/money.
        > Perhaps also metal and ore.
        >
        > As you know there's a difference between brass and bronze and if
        the
        > meaning is some of em it couldnt also be metal.
        >
        > What ever you think it mean, I'd like you to come up with some
        ideas of
        > the other words.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > /Fredrik
        >
      • Fredrik
        So what you re saying is that the only attested meaning is money . And only by comparison with other languages we can suppose the meaning also could be brass,
        Message 3 of 8 , May 12, 2006
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          So what you're saying is that the only attested meaning is 'money'.
          And only by comparison with other languages we can suppose the
          meaning also could be brass, bronze and copper.
          Is the meaning metal not an option?


          I was in a hurry before so I forgot some of my questions so here are
          some of those:

          I need a word for period, and have a suggestion.
          I know there are some attested words already but maybe not in exactly
          this meaning.
          We have mêl, hveila, stunda and era.
          Era btw semms to be cognate to ore, aiz and aes.
          I don't wanna use era coz it's a loan word.
          Some of the other might work but what about teiþs (i-stem).
          The pgcm word tîðiz I think means 'division of time' or 'point or
          portion of time'. This is similar to the meaning period I think.
          What I mean by period is a specific part of the time. Like the cold
          war was a period of the 20th century.

          I also wanna know if there are any attested word for the rivers in
          Europe. Especially any for Rhine?
          If not attested could it have been smth like Rein?
          The word comes from gaulish Renos so the extra h, is that from the
          latin form Rhenus?


          What about the word watô in compound words?
          Some one gave a suggestion for nominative as namnadrusts.
          If namô makes namna- then watô should make watna-.
          So e.g. lack of water = watnawan (or wan watins).


          /Fredrik


          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Go. 'aiz' (i.e. *ais) occurs just once (Mk 6:8).
          >
          > jah faurbauþ im ei waiht ni nemeina in wig, niba hrugga aina, nih
          > matibalg nih hlaif nih in gairdos aiz
          >
          > "forbade them to take anything on the way, except one staff,
          neither
          > a bag for food, nor bread, nor money in their belts"
          >
          > According to Strong's bible dictionary, CALKOS means "copper (the
          > substance, or some implement or coin made of it)" or "brass"
          > or "money" [
          >
          http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRGRK54.htm ]
          > . The Gothic word is given as a neuter a-stem by Streitberg, on
          the
          > basis of cognates, although from this one example the declension
          and
          > gender aren't clear. The OED gives the meaning of the Old English
          > cognate as "brass, bronze, copper", which are indeed different
          > things, but presumably the word could be used for any of them:
          >
          > "Old English âr brass, bronze, copper, is cognate with Middle Dutch
          > eer, ere copper, metal, Old Saxon êr brass (Middle Low German êr,
          re
          > metal, copper, brass), Old High German êr brass (Middle High German
          > êr brass, iron), Old Icelandic eir brass, copper, Old Swedish ér
          > copper, bronze, early modern Danish eer copper, ore, Gothic aiz
          > money, metal coin < the same Indo-European base as Sanskrit ayas
          > (base) metal, classical Latin aer-, aes brass."
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi fellas...hope you are reading this.
          > > The activity ain't on top nowadays.
          > >
          > > What is the real meaning of the word aiz?
          > >
          > > I have seen both brass, bronze and coin/money.
          > > Perhaps also metal and ore.
          > >
          > > As you know there's a difference between brass and bronze and if
          > the
          > > meaning is some of em it couldnt also be metal.
          > >
          > > What ever you think it mean, I'd like you to come up with some
          > ideas of
          > > the other words.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > /Fredrik
          > >
          >
        • Guenther Ramm
          Hails, Frithureik! Don’t you forget aiza-smitha which translates Greek CALKEUS with a certain reference to a metal? About “period”. I don’t know
          Message 4 of 8 , May 12, 2006
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            Hails, Frithureik!
            Don’t you forget aiza-smitha which translates Greek CALKEUS with a certain reference to a metal?
            About “period”. I don’t know whether Koebler had sufficient reasons to postulate *era and *stunda as possible existent Gothic words. The first could easily be a misspelling (and a typical one for Middle Latin) in the Latin-written Lex and Chronica Regum Visigothorum (I must confess I did not see these primary sources) of the ordinary Latin aera and so have nothing to do with Gothic. If borrowed maybe it would rather look like *aira (cf. kaisar < Caesar, but at the same time there is Kreks < Graecus)? Btw, is there any rule of reflecting Latin –ae- / Greek –ai- in Gothic depending on chronology and the way (oral or scribal) of borrowing? I wonder if it could be connected with that discussion on the phonetic value of Gothic digraphs we had here lately.
            The second (*stunda) is based on Provencal estona, but are we quite sure that all earlier Germanic loans in Provencal and Ibero-Romance are unexceptionally to be ascribed to Visigoths? Could not some of them come e.g. via Old French ultimately from Frankish or Old Low German?
            If I were asked about a word for “period”, so of the attested words I would prefer hveila and, if constructed, something like *hveilalaggei “a definite length of time” – we have these stems used together in a sort of a stable combination Mk. 2:19 swa lagga hveila swe mith sis haband bruthfad, ni magun fastan – in a sense “in the period of the presence of the bridegroom…”, Rom. 7:1 s<wa> lagga hveila swe libaith – “in the period of his life on earth”.
            Another word-monster of mine is *hveiladrauhsna, but that must be a very short period:)
            To say “in the period of the cold war” could be something like: swa lagga hveila swe waihun inuh wepna, lit. “as long as they (who? – *Airminareiki and *Raudareiki?) fought each other without (using their) weapons” (pity we have no dual in the 3rd person). Or, with a more modern syntax, “[at] hveilalaggein waihjons thizos kaldons”.
            Here I’d like to ask what would be a Gothic word to precisely denote “war”. I mean “war” (bellum, polemos), and not a fight (waihjo) or military service (drauhtinassus). Maybe it could be *unfrithus (after ON ófriðr) or even ungawairthi (with implicit hue of something un-worthy). How they called a period (hvaiwa tho hveilalaggein haihaitun) when their current peace treaty with the Roman Empire expired or was broken and there was again time to cross the Danube, to rob and rape? And how we would call now, for example, the WWII? Anthar Unfrithus this Airmingrundaus (just to keep the vowel alliteration, for *airmingrundus cf. OE eormengrund et sim.)? And, is Alabrunsts really an appropriate word for the Holocaust?
            The problem with the Rhine, I think, is its gender: masculine in German and neutral in ON. Latin Rhenus comes perhaps not directly from Gaulish, but through Greek to which it owes initial Rh-, or maybe it’s a later orthographic influence (like in English and German). The fact is that the Celtic and the Germanic forms are two independent developments of the same PIE river name *reinos (Celtic regularly has long [e:] for PIE diphthong [ei]): *Renos and *Reinaz, later *Riinaz respectively. The proto-meaning could be something like “flowing (water)” (the same root PIE rei- “to flow” in Lat. riuus > NE river, the difference is only in suffixes: *reinos - *reiwos).
            Still, *Rein or *Reins? I would vote for the latter (masculine).
            Of other rivers in Europe we can with some grade of certainty reconstruct *Donawi F. -jo (Gen. Donaujos) for the Danube proceeding from OHG Tuoniouui and Common Slav borrowing Dunavъ. Btw it also seems an originally Celtic word, and in this case Germanic forms seem to be borrowed from Celtic *Danuvios, where long [a:] of the first syllable goes regularly to long Germanic [o:], and the suffix –uvio- is adopted as a typical Germanic river name *agwjo.
            As you know, the Rhine and the Danube were two principal rivers that divided Pax Romana and Barbaricum. Notice that the Rhine is (most probably) male and the Danube female – could there be some mythological background of this gender distribution? A myth of brother and sister running away from parents home (their sources are comparatively close to each other) and from each other after having committed incest (an Indo-European mythological pattern)? Well, that’s all my fancy, but we have here experts on mythology, maybe they know some about it?
            Another German river is the Elbe, which is Albis in Latin < Celtic and *Albiz in PG, literally “the white (river)”. In ON we have quite a common noun elfr “river” and a lot of hydronyms in Sweden ending on –aelven. In fact, that’s a perfect “river-word” for reconstructed Gothic. The form would be Alfs F. –i (Gen. Albais) and in compounds like *Austradalalfs for Swedish Oesterdalaelven (-en is a reflex of the post-positive article?).
            Jordanes has uiscla alongside with Vistula and it is supposed to be corrupted Gothic. Is it *Weisla, or *Weihsla (to the stem weih- “holy” or weihs “village”)?
            “Dan ok Danpr” of the Edda (Rígsþula 48) allow us to speculate what Gothic names of Don and Dnepr were. *Danus jah *Danaprus? Both have the same IE root as the Danube.
            The river flowing through Prague (Czech Republic) had a German name Moldau (Chech Vltava). Could it be *Muldawi (the same word which you proposed for Moldova, this latter was also called Moldau in German). Or maybe *Wulthawi “a glorious river” (see Vltava)?
            To continue I must get a map of Europe at hand.
            Still thinking on “China”…
            Ualarauans


            Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: So what you're saying is that the only attested meaning is 'money'.
            And only by comparison with other languages we can suppose the
            meaning also could be brass, bronze and copper.
            Is the meaning metal not an option?


            I was in a hurry before so I forgot some of my questions so here are
            some of those:

            I need a word for period, and have a suggestion.
            I know there are some attested words already but maybe not in exactly
            this meaning.
            We have mêl, hveila, stunda and era.
            Era btw semms to be cognate to ore, aiz and aes.
            I don't wanna use era coz it's a loan word.
            Some of the other might work but what about teiþs (i-stem).
            The pgcm word tîðiz I think means 'division of time' or 'point or
            portion of time'. This is similar to the meaning period I think.
            What I mean by period is a specific part of the time. Like the cold
            war was a period of the 20th century.

            I also wanna know if there are any attested word for the rivers in
            Europe. Especially any for Rhine?
            If not attested could it have been smth like Rein?
            The word comes from gaulish Renos so the extra h, is that from the
            latin form Rhenus?


            What about the word watô in compound words?
            Some one gave a suggestion for nominative as namnadrusts.
            If namô makes namna- then watô should make watna-.
            So e.g. lack of water = watnawan (or wan watins).


            /Fredrik


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:


            ---------------------------------




            Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Kiltz
            ... Given the distribution of the IE word _*ayos_ or _*Hayos_ the original meaning can hardly be anything other than copper . The meanings bronze and
            Message 5 of 8 , May 12, 2006
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              On 12.05.2006, at 09:01, Fredrik wrote:

              > So what you're saying is that the only attested meaning is 'money'.
              > And only by comparison with other languages we can suppose the
              > meaning also could be brass, bronze and copper.
              > Is the meaning metal not an option?

              Given the distribution of the IE word _*ayos_ or _*Hayos_ the
              original meaning can hardly be anything other than 'copper'. The
              meanings 'bronze' and (later) 'brass' flow naturally from the first,
              as bronze is an alloy made of copper and tin (with some bits of
              arsenic). Brass, on the other hand, is made from copper with zinc.
              Unprocessed bronze is also found in nature, as 'arsenic bronze' but
              its occurance is very rare. Copper is found 'native', that is in a
              rather pure, readily workable state or as ore. As ore, it must be
              cleaned before further use.

              It seems, then, that the word for the unworked, raw metal was in
              extension also used for various alloys. As iron is found almost
              exclusively as ore, it seems natural that the word could be used as
              refering to iron ore as well and (in Indo-Iranian) to processed iron.
              Indeed, in Old Germanic the meaning 'ore' is prominent. OHG _êr_
              (occurring once in Otfrid) doesn't mean 'brass' but 'ore'. The
              primary meaning in MHG is also 'ore'. OE _âr_ and _â/ær(a)_ can,
              AFAIK have the same meaning, the latter (with -a) being the precursor
              of NE _ore_. The same is true for OIc, _eir_.

              If we're looking for a parallel to Goth. _aiz_ as (small) money, we
              need not look further than Latin. In Latin _aes, aeris_ means 'ore,
              copper, bronze'. But it's also used as 'money', more specifically a
              coin 'ass' that was worth a quarter to a tenth of a (silver)
              sestertius. Given the closeness of the Goths to Roman culture (as
              evidenced in quite a few loanwords and also the fact, that Greek
              names etc. normally appear in their Latin form) it may not be totally
              implausible to assume for the Goths to have adopted Roman usage.

              So, given the evidence of other Germanic languages, Goth. _aiz_ may
              have meant _ore, copper, bronze_. This deriving from an IE
              designation for the first metal known (with later extensions). The
              meaning 'money, copper coin' parallels Latin.

              David Kiltz

              Addendum: I just read Günther's post. _Aiza-smitha_ indeed quite
              clearly points to some 'metal' meaning.
            • llama_nom
              Hails, Wal(h?)ahrabn! Thanks for pointing out aizasmiþa . I d forgotten that! I m sure d Alquen and Marchand must mention kaisar and kreks somewhere;
              Message 6 of 8 , May 13, 2006
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                Hails, Wal(h?)ahrabn!

                Thanks for pointing out 'aizasmiþa'. I'd forgotten that! I'm sure
                d'Alquen and Marchand must mention 'kaisar' and 'kreks' somewhere;
                I'll have to look that up. From the different forms it looks as
                if 'kaisar' was an earlier loan. Presumably a diphthong in Pre-
                Gothic at least, if ON keisari, OE cásere are anything to go by. It
                might be impossible to tell with loans from Greek, since an older
                Greek/Gothic diphthong would be spelt the same as the later Greek
                monophthong in Gothic.

                At L 14:31 there may be a word for "war" which translates Gk.
                POLEMON. Wright takes it to be a noun 'wigana', the dative of
                either 'wigan' or 'wigans'. But Streitberg prints 'wigan ina',
                supposing that 'wigan' is a verb and that an 'i' has been left out
                accidentally by the scribe. The Codex Argenteus has 'wiga' + the
                nasal abbreviation mark for 'n', followed by 'na' on the next line [
                http://www.ub.uu.se/arv/codex/faksimiledition/jpg_files/235lc14f.html
                ]. See end of line 6. Probably simplest to see the Gothic word as
                a noun, 'wigan' (neuter suffix as 'aljan'?), related to the
                verb 'weihan' by ablaut and Verner's Law.

                > The form would be Alfs F. –i (Gen. Albais)

                I like your river name suggestions. Just one point, the final
                devoicing rule (Auslautsverhärtung) doesn't apply when 'b', 'g', 'd'
                follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
                would be *Albs.

                > but through Greek to which it owes initial Rh-, or maybe it's a
                later orthographic influence (like in English and German).

                According to Priebsch & Collinson (The German Language) the 'h' in
                Rhein is just a modern affectation of recent centuries, like the 'h'
                in 'Thames'.

                Llama Nom



                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hails, Frithureik!
                > Don't you forget aiza-smitha which translates Greek CALKEUS with
                a certain reference to a metal?
                > About "period". I don't know whether Koebler had sufficient
                reasons to postulate *era and *stunda as possible existent Gothic
                words. The first could easily be a misspelling (and a typical one
                for Middle Latin) in the Latin-written Lex and Chronica Regum
                Visigothorum (I must confess I did not see these primary sources) of
                the ordinary Latin aera and so have nothing to do with Gothic. If
                borrowed maybe it would rather look like *aira (cf. kaisar < Caesar,
                but at the same time there is Kreks < Graecus)? Btw, is there any
                rule of reflecting Latin –ae- / Greek –ai- in Gothic depending on
                chronology and the way (oral or scribal) of borrowing? I wonder if
                it could be connected with that discussion on the phonetic value of
                Gothic digraphs we had here lately.
                > The second (*stunda) is based on Provencal estona, but are we
                quite sure that all earlier Germanic loans in Provencal and Ibero-
                Romance are unexceptionally to be ascribed to Visigoths? Could not
                some of them come e.g. via Old French ultimately from Frankish or
                Old Low German?
                > If I were asked about a word for "period", so of the attested
                words I would prefer hveila and, if constructed, something like
                *hveilalaggei "a definite length of time" – we have these stems used
                together in a sort of a stable combination Mk. 2:19 swa lagga hveila
                swe mith sis haband bruthfad, ni magun fastan – in a sense "in the
                period of the presence of the bridegroom…", Rom. 7:1 s<wa> lagga
                hveila swe libaith – "in the period of his life on earth".
                > Another word-monster of mine is *hveiladrauhsna, but that must
                be a very short period:)
                > To say "in the period of the cold war" could be something like:
                swa lagga hveila swe waihun inuh wepna, lit. "as long as they (who? –
                *Airminareiki and *Raudareiki?) fought each other without (using
                their) weapons" (pity we have no dual in the 3rd person). Or, with a
                more modern syntax, "[at] hveilalaggein waihjons thizos kaldons".
                > Here I'd like to ask what would be a Gothic word to precisely
                denote "war". I mean "war" (bellum, polemos), and not a fight
                (waihjo) or military service (drauhtinassus). Maybe it could be
                *unfrithus (after ON ófriðr) or even ungawairthi (with implicit hue
                of something un-worthy). How they called a period (hvaiwa tho
                hveilalaggein haihaitun) when their current peace treaty with the
                Roman Empire expired or was broken and there was again time to cross
                the Danube, to rob and rape? And how we would call now, for example,
                the WWII? Anthar Unfrithus this Airmingrundaus (just to keep the
                vowel alliteration, for *airmingrundus cf. OE eormengrund et sim.)?
                And, is Alabrunsts really an appropriate word for the Holocaust?
                > The problem with the Rhine, I think, is its gender: masculine in
                German and neutral in ON. Latin Rhenus comes perhaps not directly
                from Gaulish, but through Greek to which it owes initial Rh-, or
                maybe it's a later orthographic influence (like in English and
                German). The fact is that the Celtic and the Germanic forms are two
                independent developments of the same PIE river name *reinos (Celtic
                regularly has long [e:] for PIE diphthong [ei]): *Renos and *Reinaz,
                later *Riinaz respectively. The proto-meaning could be something
                like "flowing (water)" (the same root PIE rei- "to flow" in Lat.
                riuus > NE river, the difference is only in suffixes: *reinos -
                *reiwos).
                > Still, *Rein or *Reins? I would vote for the latter (masculine).
                > Of other rivers in Europe we can with some grade of certainty
                reconstruct *Donawi F. -jo (Gen. Donaujos) for the Danube proceeding
                from OHG Tuoniouui and Common Slav borrowing Dunavъ. Btw it
                also seems an originally Celtic word, and in this case Germanic
                forms seem to be borrowed from Celtic *Danuvios, where long [a:] of
                the first syllable goes regularly to long Germanic [o:], and the
                suffix –uvio- is adopted as a typical Germanic river name *agwjo.
                > As you know, the Rhine and the Danube were two principal rivers
                that divided Pax Romana and Barbaricum. Notice that the Rhine is
                (most probably) male and the Danube female – could there be some
                mythological background of this gender distribution? A myth of
                brother and sister running away from parents home (their sources are
                comparatively close to each other) and from each other after having
                committed incest (an Indo-European mythological pattern)? Well,
                that's all my fancy, but we have here experts on mythology, maybe
                they know some about it?
                > Another German river is the Elbe, which is Albis in Latin <
                Celtic and *Albiz in PG, literally "the white (river)". In ON we
                have quite a common noun elfr "river" and a lot of hydronyms in
                Sweden ending on –aelven. In fact, that's a perfect "river-word" for
                reconstructed Gothic. The form would be Alfs F. –i (Gen. Albais) and
                in compounds like *Austradalalfs for Swedish Oesterdalaelven (-en is
                a reflex of the post-positive article?).
                > Jordanes has uiscla alongside with Vistula and it is supposed to
                be corrupted Gothic. Is it *Weisla, or *Weihsla (to the stem weih-
                "holy" or weihs "village")?
                > "Dan ok Danpr" of the Edda (Rígsþula 48) allow us to speculate
                what Gothic names of Don and Dnepr were. *Danus jah *Danaprus? Both
                have the same IE root as the Danube.
                > The river flowing through Prague (Czech Republic) had a German
                name Moldau (Chech Vltava). Could it be *Muldawi (the same word
                which you proposed for Moldova, this latter was also called Moldau
                in German). Or maybe *Wulthawi "a glorious river" (see Vltava)?
                > To continue I must get a map of Europe at hand.
                > Still thinking on "China"…
                > Ualarauans
                >
                >
                > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: So what you're saying is that the
                only attested meaning is 'money'.
                > And only by comparison with other languages we can suppose the
                > meaning also could be brass, bronze and copper.
                > Is the meaning metal not an option?
                >
                >
                > I was in a hurry before so I forgot some of my questions so here
                are
                > some of those:
                >
                > I need a word for period, and have a suggestion.
                > I know there are some attested words already but maybe not in
                exactly
                > this meaning.
                > We have mêl, hveila, stunda and era.
                > Era btw semms to be cognate to ore, aiz and aes.
                > I don't wanna use era coz it's a loan word.
                > Some of the other might work but what about teiþs (i-stem).
                > The pgcm word tîðiz I think means 'division of time' or 'point or
                > portion of time'. This is similar to the meaning period I think.
                > What I mean by period is a specific part of the time. Like the
                cold
                > war was a period of the 20th century.
                >
                > I also wanna know if there are any attested word for the rivers in
                > Europe. Especially any for Rhine?
                > If not attested could it have been smth like Rein?
                > The word comes from gaulish Renos so the extra h, is that from the
                > latin form Rhenus?
                >
                >
                > What about the word watô in compound words?
                > Some one gave a suggestion for nominative as namnadrusts.
                > If namô makes namna- then watô should make watna-.
                > So e.g. lack of water = watnawan (or wan watins).
                >
                >
                > /Fredrik
                >
                >
                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Fredrik
                ... a certain reference to a metal? ... reasons to postulate *era and *stunda as possible existent Gothic words. The first could easily be a misspelling (and a
                Message 7 of 8 , May 15, 2006
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hails, Frithureik!
                  > Don't you forget aiza-smitha which translates Greek CALKEUS with
                  a certain reference to a metal?
                  > About "period". I don't know whether Koebler had sufficient
                  reasons to postulate *era and *stunda as possible existent Gothic
                  words. The first could easily be a misspelling (and a typical one for
                  Middle Latin) in the Latin-written Lex and Chronica Regum
                  Visigothorum (I must confess I did not see these primary sources) of
                  the ordinary Latin aera and so have nothing to do with Gothic. If
                  borrowed maybe it would rather look like *aira (cf. kaisar < Caesar,
                  but at the same time there is Kreks < Graecus)? Btw, is there any
                  rule of reflecting Latin –ae- / Greek –ai- in Gothic depending on
                  chronology and the way (oral or scribal) of borrowing? I wonder if it
                  could be connected with that discussion on the phonetic value of
                  Gothic digraphs we had here lately.

                  I don't know when ae became e in latin and why gothic as ai in kaisar
                  but e in kreks is not anything i know. I hope somebody here has info
                  enough to clear this out.
                  But most likely all three are loan from latin, and era and kreks
                  would be later loans.
                  Might it be like caesar was a loan in pgmc time?


                  > The second (*stunda) is based on Provencal estona, but are we
                  quite sure that all earlier Germanic loans in Provencal and Ibero-
                  Romance are unexceptionally to be ascribed to Visigoths? Could not
                  some of them come e.g. via Old French ultimately from Frankish or Old
                  Low German?

                  Well, maybe. Even some germanic words in spanish ain't of gothic
                  origin but loan from old french and ultimately from frankish.
                  And some could also be loans to latin and then later it occurs in
                  spanish and provençal.
                  I guess sp. guante is a loan from mid.latin vantus or maybe frankish.
                  Both italian has it (as guanto) and french (as gant).
                  gothic would have wantus I think.

                  > And how we would call now, for example, the WWII? Anthar Unfrithus
                  this Airmingrundaus (just to keep the vowel alliteration, for
                  *airmingrundus cf. OE eormengrund et sim.)? And, is Alabrunsts really
                  an appropriate word for the Holocaust?

                  WWII, I would say Anthar Wigan Fairhvaus.
                  And the Holocaust, maybe So Qisteins.
                  (Or gataurths as a translation of german zerstörung which is a
                  translation of hebrew shoah)


                  > As you know, the Rhine and the Danube were two principal rivers
                  that divided Pax Romana and Barbaricum. Notice that the Rhine is
                  (most probably) male and the Danube female – could there be some
                  mythological background of this gender distribution? A myth of
                  brother and sister running away from parents home (their sources are
                  comparatively close to each other) and from each other after having
                  committed incest (an Indo-European mythological pattern)? Well,
                  that's all my fancy, but we have here experts on mythology, maybe
                  they know some about it?

                  I don't know about IE mythology but it sounds believable.

                  > Another German river is the Elbe, which is Albis in Latin <
                  Celtic and *Albiz in PG, literally "the white (river)".

                  If *albiz wasn't a word for river, but only as an element in river
                  names for "white rivers", then is it good to use it in gothic?

                  According to runeberg IE albhi- is a feminine form of albho- = lat.
                  albus. the pgmc masc. form would be albaz and the gothic albs (but a-
                  stem), right?

                  In ON we have quite a common noun elfr "river" and a lot of hydronyms
                  in Sweden ending on –aelven. In fact, that's a perfect "river-word"
                  for reconstructed Gothic. The form would be Alfs F. –i (Gen. Albais)
                  and in compounds like *Austradalalfs for Swedish Oesterdalaelven (-en
                  is a reflex of the post-positive article?).

                  älven is definite form of älv, one of some words in swedish for river.
                  (some others are flod and å, where å is cognate to gothic ahva.)
                  The islands of Åland is in finnish Ahvenanmaa, the first part a loan
                  from germanic language.
                  A gothic name could be Ahvaland. (sounds little weird I think)


                  > Jordanes has uiscla alongside with Vistula and it is supposed to
                  be corrupted Gothic. Is it *Weisla, or *Weihsla (to the stem weih-
                  "holy" or weihs "village")?

                  Is it a name of gothic (or germanic) origin or maybe from some other
                  language?
                  The t seems to be a part of the name in some sources.

                  Ptolemy also records the tribes around the Vistula River, which he
                  regards as the border between Germany and Sarmatia. He uses the Greek
                  spelling, "Ouistoula". Other ancient sources spell it "Istula".
                  Pomponius Mela refers to the "Visula" (Book 3) and Ammianus
                  Marcellinus to the "Bisula" (Book 22), both of which names lack the -
                  t-. The Anglo-Saxon poem Widsith refers to it as the "Wistla".


                  > The river flowing through Prague (Czech Republic) had a German
                  name Moldau (Chech Vltava). Could it be *Muldawi (the same word which
                  you proposed for Moldova, this latter was also called Moldau in
                  German). Or maybe *Wulthawi "a glorious river" (see Vltava)?

                  Maybe the original name was wulthawi which became vltava in czech
                  language. And in germanic later changed to muldawi. Or the other way?

                  The word awi is cognate to ahva which means flowing water/river. But
                  can awi be used in the same meaning?

                  Isn't it also used as steppe/meadow?
                  As I might have said before, the scythian steppe which included the
                  area of Moldova was oium (aujom) in gothic, from awi.
                  So was awi used for steppe?
                  Then Muldawi would be a good name for Moldova.
                  I don't know if i've said it but in swedish M. is Moldavien.


                  >
                  >
                  > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: So what you're saying is that the
                  only attested meaning is 'money'.
                  > And only by comparison with other languages we can suppose the
                  > meaning also could be brass, bronze and copper.
                  > Is the meaning metal not an option?
                  >
                  >
                  > I was in a hurry before so I forgot some of my questions so here
                  are
                  > some of those:
                  >
                  > I need a word for period, and have a suggestion.
                  > I know there are some attested words already but maybe not in
                  exactly
                  > this meaning.
                  > We have mêl, hveila, stunda and era.
                  > Era btw semms to be cognate to ore, aiz and aes.
                  > I don't wanna use era coz it's a loan word.
                  > Some of the other might work but what about teiþs (i-stem).
                  > The pgcm word tîðiz I think means 'division of time' or 'point or
                  > portion of time'. This is similar to the meaning period I think.
                  > What I mean by period is a specific part of the time. Like the cold
                  > war was a period of the 20th century.
                  >
                  > I also wanna know if there are any attested word for the rivers in
                  > Europe. Especially any for Rhine?
                  > If not attested could it have been smth like Rein?
                  > The word comes from gaulish Renos so the extra h, is that from the
                  > latin form Rhenus?
                  >
                  >
                  > What about the word watô in compound words?
                  > Some one gave a suggestion for nominative as namnadrusts.
                  > If namô makes namna- then watô should make watna-.
                  > So e.g. lack of water = watnawan (or wan watins).
                  >
                  >
                  > /Fredrik
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Send instant messages to your online friends
                  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Guenther Ramm
                  Hails, Frithureik! Nice to get your reply ... reasons to postulate *era and *stunda as possible existent Gothic words. The first could easily be a misspelling
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 15, 2006
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                    Hails, Frithureik!
                    Nice to get your reply


                    Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:



                    > About "period". I don't know whether Koebler had sufficient

                    reasons to postulate *era and *stunda as possible existent Gothic

                    words. The first could easily be a misspelling (and a typical one for

                    Middle Latin) in the Latin-written Lex and Chronica Regum

                    Visigothorum (I must confess I did not see these primary sources) of

                    the ordinary Latin aera and so have nothing to do with Gothic. If

                    borrowed maybe it would rather look like *aira (cf. kaisar < Caesar,

                    but at the same time there is Kreks < Graecus)? Btw, is there any

                    rule of reflecting Latin –ae- / Greek –ai- in Gothic depending on

                    chronology and the way (oral or scribal) of borrowing? I wonder if it

                    could be connected with that discussion on the phonetic value of

                    Gothic digraphs we had here lately.



                    I don't know when ae became e in latin and why gothic as ai in kaisar

                    but e in kreks is not anything i know. I hope somebody here has info

                    enough to clear this out.

                    But most likely all three are loan from latin, and era and kreks

                    would be later loans.

                    Might it be like caesar was a loan in pgmc time?


                    - I agree about kaisar, and L. N. has promised us his opinion on this topic, detailed and elegant as usual (excuse my reminder :). In the meanwhile I’d suppose Kreks could have been borrowed not directly from Latin, but maybe through some medium of Thracian, Sarmatian or whatever origin whose phonetic peculiarities and processes are known as much as not at all. Besides, Braune/Helm (Gotische Grammatik 1952: 8) adduce Kreks along with a few other words as an example of the so-called e2 (“das zweite e (= ahd. ea, ia)”). Indeed, OHG has Griahhi, but are Kreks and Griahhi not two different traditions (independent borrowings – cf. the Anlaut consonant and the stem vowel)? And were there any real phonologic difference between e1 and e2 in Gothic? Then why not two different letters?..


                    Even some germanic words in spanish ain't of gothic

                    origin but loan from old french and ultimately from frankish.

                    And some could also be loans to latin and then later it occurs in

                    spanish and provenзal.

                    - Yes, but even if we accept *era and *stunda were Gothic, what are they better to be specialized for “period” than any of the really attested words meaning “time” or “some time”?


                    And the Holocaust, maybe So Qisteins.

                    (Or gataurths as a translation of german zerstцrung which is a

                    translation of hebrew shoah)

                    - I also was in doubt about alabrunsts which is though close to what the word Holocaust originally meant (Streitberg’s dictionary says it translated Greek HOLOKAUTWMA in Mk. 12:33), still doesn’t fully reflect, without additional comments, what we mean now with the Holocaust. I have been thinking about it some time and now I would offer a compound *alamaurthr N. –a, where ala- is an emphasizing prefix (like in ON) and not literally “all”. You know regicide is a murder of a king, but genocide is most often only an attempt, bloody and horrible, to murder a nation. To say in Gothic *kunja-maurthr (< Late Lat. genocidium) would literally mean, I suppose, not more than an extermination of a particular clan (like what Ermanaricus tried to do to Rosomonians) that demands a vendetta (he got it finally). *Ala-maurthr (Iudaie) would accent that systematic and “unexceptionally devouring” side of the terror machinery aimed at total extermination. To have alabrunsts for “whole burnt
                    offering” and *alamaurthr for the “Holocaust” would correspond with Modern Hebrew ‘ola “sacrifice” resp. sho’a “the Catastrophe of the European Jewry”.


                    According to runeberg IE albhi- is a feminine form of albho- = lat.

                    albus. the pgmc masc. form would be albaz and the gothic albs (but a-

                    stem), right?

                    - If you mean the name for “Elves”, I’d also use *Albos M. –a Pl. like ON, although OE seems to have had masculine forms with –i-stems. We must be careful here since we don’t know what Gothic Albos really were – at minimum were they considered good (as Anglo-Saxon, hence all English tradition up to Tolkien) or some evil (as German Alptraum seems to hint)? Another German toponym with this stem I found is Elbing (lit. “small river”?) which is now Elblag (nasal a) in Poland (ex-Ostpreussen). The question is if this is originally Germanic (and thus = Gothic *Albiggs) or a later Germanization.


                    дlven is definite form of дlv, one of some words in swedish for river.

                    (some others are flod and е, where е is cognate to gothic ahva.)

                    The islands of Еland is in finnish Ahvenanmaa, the first part a loan

                    from germanic language.

                    A gothic name could be Ahvaland. (sounds little weird I think)

                    - I didn’t know aelv is still a quite living common word in Swedish! That’s good for proposing *albs F. –i for some sort of rivers. Thus the Elbe becomes “a river par excellence” :)
                    - *Ahvaland seems to be no more weird than Zealand (*Saiwaland) or our *Muldawi (all being a mixture of water and land).


                    > Jordanes has uiscla alongside with Vistula and it is supposed to

                    be corrupted Gothic. Is it *Weisla, or *Weihsla (to the stem weih-

                    "holy" or weihs "village")?



                    Is it a name of gothic (or germanic) origin or maybe from some other

                    language?

                    The t seems to be a part of the name in some sources.



                    Ptolemy also records the tribes around the Vistula River, which he

                    regards as the border between Germany and Sarmatia. He uses the Greek

                    spelling, "Ouistoula". Other ancient sources spell it "Istula".

                    Pomponius Mela refers to the "Visula" (Book 3) and Ammianus

                    Marcellinus to the "Bisula" (Book 22), both of which names lack the -

                    t-. The Anglo-Saxon poem Widsith refers to it as the "Wistla".

                    - The Polish name is Wisla, but what is said about its etymology I don’t know unfortunately. I just suppose this –t(u)- or –c- of Jordanes were different ways to avoid through epenthesis the unpronounceable –sl- (cf. Sclauus for Slav). At least it could have been originally Germanic (smth like proposed Gothic *Weihsla, whence NHG Weichsel) which was later borrowed by the West Slavs.


                    > The river flowing through Prague (Czech Republic) had a German

                    name Moldau (Chech Vltava). Could it be *Muldawi (the same word which

                    you proposed for Moldova, this latter was also called Moldau in

                    German). Or maybe *Wulthawi "a glorious river" (see Vltava)?



                    Maybe the original name was wulthawi which became vltava in czech

                    language. And in germanic later changed to muldawi. Or the other way?

                    - Again, it’s pretty probable. You know a lot of Central/East European toponymics went this way: Germanic > Slavic > Germanic, e.g. Gothic *Gutisk Andi (or *Gutisk-andeis) > Pol. Gdansk > German Danzig. At any rate I see -awi a nice way to Gothicize Slavic place-names on –ava, -ova and the like.


                    The word awi is cognate to ahva which means flowing water/river. But

                    can awi be used in the same meaning?



                    Isn't it also used as steppe/meadow?

                    As I might have said before, the scythian steppe which included the

                    area of Moldova was oium (aujom) in gothic, from awi.

                    So was awi used for steppe?

                    Then Muldawi would be a good name for Moldova.

                    I don't know if i've said it but in swedish M. is Moldavien.

                    - PG. *ahwo (Goth. ahva) and PG. *agwjo (Goth. *awi) differ only in suffix and pre-PG stress hence alternation of voiceless/voiced consonant according to Verner’s Law. Of cause awi was not a river but most probably something like “meadow”. There have been some hot discussions in literature about what and where Oium really were. I can’t now recollect all the arguments I was persuaded with, but I hold as most probable that it was a relatively small territory on the Eastern bank of the Lower Dnepr (just north of the Crimea). There must have been meadows, streams and marshes – shortly that what Goths could call *Aujos in a broader sense. What about “steppe” – could it better be haithi or thaurp? I was lately in Mongolia and had a chance to see steppes – there’s a real *watnawan there as you would call it. But what are they in the Ukraine?

                    Best Regards
                    Ualarauans

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