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  • dciurchea
    Dear all, happy to meet you. I am D. Ciurchea from Romania, I am a physicist and a beginner historian having a few fresh look ideeas about Gets(and perhaps
    Message 1 of 5 , May 10, 2006
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      Dear all, happy to meet you.
      I am D. Ciurchea from Romania, I am a physicist and a beginner
      historian having a few fresh look ideeas about Gets(and perhaps
      Goths) living in Transylvania. I have posted some ideas on the Skadi
      forum.
      I am not in agreement nor with Romanian historians, nor with
      Hungarian historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery.
      Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german.
      Please see my Skadi postings. I could repost them here if necessary;
      nothing offensive.
      The Gepid fonem in Jordannes(Ce piz... or Ce pid.. in Romanian ) is
      actuall an insult, "what the heck" in Romanian, addressed by the two
      brothers to the third, more slow.
      I have already find an interesting thread in this group, the gothic
      religion, less centered on language. This is important as I see the
      gothic mythology derived from the Getic customs, i.e. the mythology
      of my ancestors, now lost.

      If I can be of assistance please let me know.

      Sincerely,
      D. Ciurchea
    • Guenther Ramm
      ... Hungarian historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery. Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german. Dear Ciurchea, I
      Message 2 of 5 , May 13, 2006
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        dciurchea <dciurchea@...> wrote:
        > I am not in agreement nor with Romanian historians, nor with

        Hungarian historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery.

        Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german.


        Dear Ciurchea, I wonder is there any strong reason to so unconditionally associate Old Thracian and today’s Romanian which is all Romance and no way other? It is Albanian (Shqiptar), I guess, which may nowadays claim (linguistically) an Illyro-Thracian origin. Were Dacians Thracian? Anyway, to say Romanians are pure descendants of them would mean to ignore the Roman, Greek, Slavic, Magyar etc. inputs. Even East-Germanic tribes paid their contribution, as is seen from a number of Gothic loanwords in today’s Romanian (I mean Gothic in broader sense – they can be Gepidic as well). The Gut-thiuda of the Calendar was most likely situated north of the Danube (ripa Gothica of contemporary historiographs) in what is now Muntenia. The word that the Goths seemingly used to refer to the natives of the land was *Walhos M. –a Pl., which is common Germanic name of Celtic and Romance peoples (up to NE Wales and NHG welsch) and indicates pretty well that this post-Dacian population had
        been already Romanized after less than 200 years of the Imperial Rule. Being borrowed by succeeding Slavs as vlakhu (see also BLACOI in medieval Byzantine sources) it produced Walachia which was changed to Romania as a name of the land only in the 19th century, perhaps to emphasize the Roman heritage after gaining the independence. If I error please correct me.


        > The Gepid fonem in Jordannes(Ce piz... or Ce pid.. in Romanian ) is

        actuall an insult, "what the heck" in Romanian, addressed by the two

        brothers to the third, more slow.


        Again, is this phrase Romanian or reconstructed Thracian? (and what do we know then about Old-Thracian?) If it is Modern Romanian, how about the fact that Jordanes wrote in the 6th century when the East-Romance dialects were probably not more than a sort of vernacular not much different from the Vulgar Latin spoken throughout the Empire? I can easily mistake here since I’m not an expert in Romanics and at any rate I hope there’s nothing offensive in what I’ve said. And how would you explain then the evidence of OE which has Gifdas?
        This etymologizing cannot help reminding of Isidor and his deriving Gepids as “Gipedes” from Lat. pes, pedis with the meaning “those preferring to walk on foot” (and therefore always slow?) or something like that. It shows well that the name of Gepids was and still is an enigma.
        The real crux about this name, I guess, is this –p- which is unanimously fixed by Roman and Greek writers while the OE form presumes Gothic –b-. Be it *Gibidos or *Gabideis – why > Gepides et sim.? And the form Gepedoios in Getica – doesn’t it speak in favor of Gothic –p-?


        > This is important as I see the

        gothic mythology derived from the Getic customs, i.e. the mythology

        of my ancestors, now lost.



        That’s interesting. Is there any evidence for it? And how much is known of what the Goths REALLY believed in, besides the ethnogenetic myth around *Gauts (I’m sorry still failing to get to Ingemar Nordgren’s book dealing with the subject). Of cause we can reconstruct names like *Wodans, *Thunr(u)s, *Friddi and the like, but were they familiar to Goths? Their wanderings and intercourse with many non-Germanic tribes and cultures must have left a definite stamp on their beliefs. I read somewhere that those of them who had wandered deep into Hellas started to adore its old pagan altars rather than become Christian, it being their way to get naturalized in the new homeland. Does anybody know something about it?

        Hlutramma hairtin

        Walahrabns

        Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • llama_nom
        ... unanimously fixed by Roman and Greek writers while the OE form presumes Gothic –b-. Be it *Gibidos or *Gabideis – why Gepides et sim.? And the form
        Message 3 of 5 , May 14, 2006
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...>
          wrote:

          > The real crux about this name, I guess, is this –p- which is
          unanimously fixed
          by Roman and Greek writers while the OE form presumes Gothic –b-. Be
          it *Gibidos
          or *Gabideis – why > Gepides et sim.? And the form Gepedoios in
          Getica – doesn't
          it speak in favor of Gothic –p-?


          There a handful of Gothic names transcribed in Latin with 'p' where
          the proposed reconstruction has /f/.

          Paria : *Farja
          Pantardus : *Fant(a-h)ardus
          Optila : *Uftila (cf. Ufita-hari in the Naples deed)
          Optarit : *Ufta-reþs

          More often Go. /f/ is transcribed as Lat. 'f' or 'ph'. The latter
          was also used to transcribe Greek phi, which is supposed to have
          been a voiceless bilabial fricative at this time. OE -f- could
          correspond to either Go. /f/ or /b/.
        • dciurchea
          I thank you for reading my post. The first (visible) benefit of analysis of gothic language is the link and relationship with today s German. Thus one may
          Message 4 of 5 , May 14, 2006
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            I thank you for reading my post. The first (visible) benefit of analysis
            of 'gothic' language is the link and relationship with today's German.
            Thus one may hope that other antic data of known origin may be debugged
            by using today's fonems also. Since I can't post pictures and docs in
            the Files folder, in the following days I shall develop posts with
            pictures in my personal forum
            (http://duci.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~72.asp-now
            <http://duci.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~72.asp-now> in romanian will be
            doubbed as 'the gothic connection'). I invite you to see the arguments
            and pictures there.

            I am not recomposing old Thracian, but using local fonems; my point is
            that:

            a) in Transylvania (antic Dacia - not all Romania) the person's family
            name is formed as a derivate of the village;

            b) toponimics are conserved through time by shepherds

            This is a way to order some hystorical data and to identify some useful
            fonems.

            With respect to the Dacian's (Getic) religion little is known, except
            for Zalmoxis (the chief god) and Kogaion (the sacred mountain).
            Trajan's Column presents Dacians with some boxes in hand, which should
            be the 'ancestor's relics boxes' - essential in christianism and the
            basics of gothic ancestry. The cult of ancestors should have been very
            powerfull. Still today the orhodoxian Church is organising 6-7 days of
            pilgrimage to the saint remains of local saints. The Dacians chiefs had
            a phrygian cap-indicating again their thracian origin.

            I shall post an exercept of the classics: Strabo ("Getae were
            Thracians") and Jordannes ( "Getae and Gepidae are kinsmen"). Please
            observe the cathegory of Getae 'basileians', which are exactly the
            dacians-with huge gold mines- conquered by Trajan in 106AD.

            ----------------
            The Geography of Strabo , published in the Loeb Classical Library, 1924
            , Book VII, Chapter 3

            2 Now the Greeks used to suppose that the Getae were Thracians; and the
            Getae lived on either side the Ister, as did also the Mysi, these also
            being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi;
            from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians
            and the Phrygians and Trojans. And the Phrygians themselves are
            Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians,
            the Medobithynians,59 the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think,
            also the Mariandynians.
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
            -------------------------------

            Folklore (from N. Savescu "Noi nu suntem urmasii Romei"):

            Macedonean Dialect Romanian
            Cari-n'i bati, noaptea Cine-mi bate noaptea
            La firida mea, moi? La fereastra mea, mai?
            Io huia, msata Marioara Eu sunt, frumoasa Marioara
            Nu-n'i ti-aspirea, moi. Nu te speria, mai.
            Scoal aprond'i lampa Scoala de-aprinde lampa
            S-ti vedua fata ta, Sa-ti vad fata ta
            Fata ta tea alb-arosi Fata ta cea alb`-rosie
            Ca trandafila. Ca de trandafir.

            See also:
            http://www.vlahoi.gr/vlahs.asp?RFRM=http://www.vlahoi.gr/history.htm
            <http://www.vlahoi.gr/vlahs.asp?RFRM=http://www.vlahoi.gr/history.htm>
            http://www.vlachs.gr/uk/index-uk.htm
            <http://www.vlachs.gr/uk/index-uk.htm>
            http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/vlachs.html
            <http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/vlachs.html>

            ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
            ---------------------------------
            12 But there is also another division of the country which has endured
            from early times, for some of the people are called Daci, whereas others
            are called Getae — Getae, those who incline towards the Pontus and
            the east, and Daci, those who incline in the opposite direction towards
            Germany and the sources of the Ister. The Daci, I think, were called
            Daï in early times; whence the slave names "Geta" and "Daüs"156
            which prevailed among the Attic people; for this is more probable than
            that "Daüs" is from those Scythians who are called "Daae," for they
            live far away in the neighbourhood of Hyrcania, and it is not reasonable
            to suppose that slaves were brought into Attica from there…
            13. … Be that as it may, although the Getae and Daci once attained
            to very great power, so that they actually could send forth an
            expedition of two hundred thousand men, they now find themselves reduced
            to as few as forty thousand, and they have come close to the point of
            yielding obedience to the Romans, though as yet they are not absolutely
            submissive, because of the hopes which they base on the Germans, who are
            enemies to the Romans.
            17 … seaboard between the Borysthenes and the Ister consists,
            first, of the Desert of the Getae; Today Dobrudja
            then the country of the Tyregetans;  Today Moldavia and Muntenia
            and after it the country of the Iazygian Sarmatians  Today North
            and East Transylvania
            and that of the people called the Basileians  Today Banat and The
            East Carpathians and The Somes Valley, around the gold mines = Dacia =
            what Trajan Conquered in 106AD. See the (basileus) adoration of Trajan
            on the Column
            and that of the Urgi, who in general are nomads,
            though a few are interested also in farming; these people, it is said,
            dwell also along the Ister, often on both sides. In the interior dwell,
            first, those Bastarnians whose country borders on that of the Tyregetans
            and Germans — they also being, one might say, of Germanic stock; and
            they are divided up into several tribes, for a part of them are called
            Atmoni and Sidoni, while those who took possession of Peuce, the island
            in the Ister, are called "Peucini," whereas the "Roxolani" (the most
            northerly of them all) roam the plains between the Tanaïs and the
            Borysthenes. In fact, the whole country towards the north from Germany
            as far as the Caspian Sea is, so far as we know it, a plain, but whether
            any people dwell beyond the Roxolani we do not know. Now the Roxolani,
            under the leadership of Tasius, carried on war even with the generals of
            Mithridates Eupator; they came for the purpose of assisting Palacus, the
            son of Scilurus, as his allies, and they had the reputation of being
            warlike; ..……..

            Jordannes (The Project Gutenberg eBook, The Origin and Deeds of the
            Goths, by Jordanes, Translated by Charles C. Mierow):

            XVII ........ Should you ask how the Getae and Gepidae are kinsmen, I
            can tell you in a few words. You surely remember that in the beginning I
            said the Goths went forth from the bosom of the island of Scandza with
            Berig, their king, sailing in only three ships toward the hither shore
            of Ocean, namely to Gothiscandza. One of these three ships proved to be
            slower than the others, as is usually the case, and thus is said to have
            given the tribe their name, for in their language _gepanta_ means slow.
            Hence it came to pass that gradually and by corruption the name Gepidae
            was coined for them by way of reproach. For undoubtedly they too trace
            their origin from the stock of the Goths, but because, as I have said,
            _gepanta_ means something slow and stolid, the word Gepidae arose as a
            gratuitous name of reproach. I do not believe this is very far wrong,
            for they are slow of thought and too sluggish for quick movement of
            their bodies.



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com> ,
            Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > dciurchea <dciurchea@...> wrote:
            > > I am not in agreement nor with Romanian historians, nor with
            >
            > Hungarian historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery.
            >
            > Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german.
            >
            >
            > Dear Ciurchea, I wonder is there any strong reason to so
            unconditionally associate Old Thracian and today's Romanian which is
            all Romance and no way other? It is Albanian (Shqiptar), I guess, which
            may nowadays claim (linguistically) an Illyro-Thracian origin. Were
            Dacians Thracian? Anyway, to say Romanians are pure descendants of them
            would mean to ignore the Roman, Greek, Slavic, Magyar etc. inputs. Even
            East-Germanic tribes paid their contribution, as is seen from a number
            of Gothic loanwords in today's Romanian (I mean Gothic in broader
            sense – they can be Gepidic as well). The Gut-thiuda of the Calendar
            was most likely situated north of the Danube (ripa Gothica of
            contemporary historiographs) in what is now Muntenia. The word that the
            Goths seemingly used to refer to the natives of the land was *Walhos M.
            –a Pl., which is common Germanic name of Celtic and Romance peoples
            (up to NE Wales and NHG welsch) and indicates pretty well that this
            post-Dacian population had
            > been already Romanized after less than 200 years of the Imperial
            Rule. Being borrowed by succeeding Slavs as vlakhu (see also BLACOI in
            medieval Byzantine sources) it produced Walachia which was changed to
            Romania as a name of the land only in the 19th century, perhaps to
            emphasize the Roman heritage after gaining the independence. If I error
            please correct me.
            >
            >
            > > The Gepid fonem in Jordannes(Ce piz... or Ce pid.. in Romanian ) is
            >
            > actuall an insult, "what the heck" in Romanian, addressed by the two
            >
            > brothers to the third, more slow.
            >
            >
            > Again, is this phrase Romanian or reconstructed Thracian? (and what
            do we know then about Old-Thracian?) If it is Modern Romanian, how about
            the fact that Jordanes wrote in the 6th century when the East-Romance
            dialects were probably not more than a sort of vernacular not much
            different from the Vulgar Latin spoken throughout the Empire? I can
            easily mistake here since I'm not an expert in Romanics and at any
            rate I hope there's nothing offensive in what I've said. And how
            would you explain then the evidence of OE which has Gifdas?
            > This etymologizing cannot help reminding of Isidor and his deriving
            Gepids as "Gipedes" from Lat. pes, pedis with the meaning
            "those preferring to walk on foot" (and therefore always slow?)
            or something like that. It shows well that the name of Gepids was and
            still is an enigma.
            > The real crux about this name, I guess, is this –p- which is
            unanimously fixed by Roman and Greek writers while the OE form presumes
            Gothic –b-. Be it *Gibidos or *Gabideis – why > Gepides et sim.?
            And the form Gepedoios in Getica – doesn't it speak in favor of
            Gothic –p-?
            >
            >
            > > This is important as I see the
            >
            > gothic mythology derived from the Getic customs, i.e. the mythology
            >
            > of my ancestors, now lost.
            >
            >
            >
            > That's interesting. Is there any evidence for it? And how much is
            known of what the Goths REALLY believed in, besides the ethnogenetic
            myth around *Gauts (I'm sorry still failing to get to Ingemar
            Nordgren's book dealing with the subject). Of cause we can
            reconstruct names like *Wodans, *Thunr(u)s, *Friddi and the like, but
            were they familiar to Goths? Their wanderings and intercourse with many
            non-Germanic tribes and cultures must have left a definite stamp on
            their beliefs. I read somewhere that those of them who had wandered deep
            into Hellas started to adore its old pagan altars rather than become
            Christian, it being their way to get naturalized in the new homeland.
            Does anybody know something about it?
            >
            > Hlutramma hairtin
            >
            > Walahrabns
            >
            > Send instant messages to your online friends
            http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com <http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Francisc Czobor
            Bine ai venit la Lista Gotica! Ideile tale s-ar putea sa nu gaseasca prea multi admiratori pe aici, deoarece toti (inclusiv eu) stiu ca limba gotica era o
            Message 5 of 5 , May 15, 2006
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              Bine ai venit la Lista Gotica!
              Ideile tale s-ar putea sa nu gaseasca prea multi admiratori pe aici,
              deoarece toti (inclusiv eu) stiu ca limba gotica era o limba in mod
              evident germanica, pe cand getii erau traci. Au mai fost discutii de
              acest gen pe aici.

              Salutari din Bucuresti,
              Francisc

              For the other members of the Gothic-L: this is not Gothic, but
              Romanian.
              The translation is:

              Welcome to the Gothic List!
              Your ideas may not find much fans over here, because all (including
              me) know that Gothic was a Germanic language, whereas the Getae were
              Thracians. There were already such discussion on this list.



              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "dciurchea" <dciurchea@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear all, happy to meet you.
              > I am D. Ciurchea from Romania, I am a physicist and a beginner
              > historian having a few fresh look ideeas about Gets(and perhaps
              > Goths) living in Transylvania. I have posted some ideas on the
              Skadi
              > forum.
              > I am not in agreement nor with Romanian historians, nor with
              > Hungarian historians since I consider Jordannes work as a forgery.
              > Thus the fonems in Getica are pretty Romanian (Thracic) not german.
              > Please see my Skadi postings. I could repost them here if
              necessary;
              > nothing offensive.
              > The Gepid fonem in Jordannes(Ce piz... or Ce pid.. in Romanian )
              is
              > actuall an insult, "what the heck" in Romanian, addressed by the
              two
              > brothers to the third, more slow.
              > I have already find an interesting thread in this group, the gothic
              > religion, less centered on language. This is important as I see the
              > gothic mythology derived from the Getic customs, i.e. the mythology
              > of my ancestors, now lost.
              >
              > If I can be of assistance please let me know.
              >
              > Sincerely,
              > D. Ciurchea
              >
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