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  • Ingemar Nordgren
    ... Hi Michalcigan, It depends on what sense you give the name Goths. If you regard the Vistula Goths as a single tribe/people with no connection to
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 23, 2006
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "michalcigan" <michalcigan@...> wrote:

      > 2/And secon one, from wikipedia I have an information, that old
      > english Geates/jeates/- in Beowulf located in Scandinavia - are Goths
      > /it should be a reminiscence on their original homeland befor "the
      > exodus" southward from south scandinavia/.
      > Can I Belive this idea?


      Hi Michalcigan,

      It depends on what sense you give the name Goths. If you regard the
      Vistula Goths as a single tribe/people with no connection to
      neighbouring peoples/tribes the answer is no. If however you regard
      all peoples/tribes claiming ancestry from Gaut as Gothic peoples the
      answer must be yes. I have stated in my doctoral dissertation that the
      name is teophoric regardless if you use the local names of
      Gudones/Gotones, Goutai,Gutar, Gauter, Geatas, Gotnar or
      Jutar/Ýtar/Ýtas/Eudozes since they all have the meaning 'the
      outpoured, men'.Geatas could be either Gauter or Jutar. The Gothic
      ethnicity is in my view primarily religious and not nessecarily
      linguistic even if the Gothic language later is identified with the
      Continental Goths. It is still not known when Gothic/Eastgermanic
      became an own branch but in any case that must have happened before
      the Scandinavian dialects started to develope. Some claim a
      relationship between Eastgermanic and Northgermanic, other mean
      Northgermanic is part of Northwestgermanic and not related to
      Eastgermanic. In any case religion presumably is older than the
      different later languages. I know this is a wasps nest on this list
      and I do not intend to involve myself into a linguistic discussion
      that can go on for ever and for which I lack competence. I stick to
      religion as a safer card. I have elaborated on these things in my
      book, The Well Spring of the Goths, that is available at Amazon and
      other netshops, and it is quite nessecary to read that book to really
      understand what I say and why. (The English is, I am sorry to say, of
      neither fluent US or GB standard but rather mixed since I translated
      it myself, but in any case understandable).

      Best
      Ingemar
    • Michal Cigan
      Hallo to You, Ingemar, first, thanx a lot for Your answer. It s quite interesting... So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no lineal
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 24, 2006
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        Hallo to You,
        Ingemar,
        first, thanx a lot for Your answer.
        It's quite interesting...

        So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no lineal connection between
        "gothic homeland" - at least I heard so but im not a specialist on this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there is a connection, than of what kind?

        What exactly do You mean by term "teophoric" - Gaut is some kind of mythical ancestor?

        Michal

        Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "michalcigan" <michalcigan@...> wrote:

        > 2/And secon one, from wikipedia I have an information, that old
        > english Geates/jeates/- in Beowulf located in Scandinavia - are Goths
        > /it should be a reminiscence on their original homeland befor "the
        > exodus" southward from south scandinavia/.
        > Can I Belive this idea?


        Hi Michalcigan,

        It depends on what sense you give the name Goths. If you regard the
        Vistula Goths as a single tribe/people with no connection to
        neighbouring peoples/tribes the answer is no. If however you regard
        all peoples/tribes claiming ancestry from Gaut as Gothic peoples the
        answer must be yes. I have stated in my doctoral dissertation that the
        name is teophoric regardless if you use the local names of
        Gudones/Gotones, Goutai,Gutar, Gauter, Geatas, Gotnar or
        Jutar/Ýtar/Ýtas/Eudozes since they all have the meaning 'the
        outpoured, men'.Geatas could be either Gauter or Jutar. The Gothic
        ethnicity is in my view primarily religious and not nessecarily
        linguistic even if the Gothic language later is identified with the
        Continental Goths. It is still not known when Gothic/Eastgermanic
        became an own branch but in any case that must have happened before
        the Scandinavian dialects started to develope. Some claim a
        relationship between Eastgermanic and Northgermanic, other mean
        Northgermanic is part of Northwestgermanic and not related to
        Eastgermanic. In any case religion presumably is older than the
        different later languages. I know this is a wasps nest on this list
        and I do not intend to involve myself into a linguistic discussion
        that can go on for ever and for which I lack competence. I stick to
        religion as a safer card. I have elaborated on these things in my
        book, The Well Spring of the Goths, that is available at Amazon and
        other netshops, and it is quite nessecary to read that book to really
        understand what I say and why. (The English is, I am sorry to say, of
        neither fluent US or GB standard but rather mixed since I translated
        it myself, but in any case understandable).

        Best
        Ingemar






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      • Guenther Ramm
        Hi! I will try to answer both, but you should look in other replies cause I am not most competent here. 1. I am not sure Erpr is referred to as Jörmunreks son
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 24, 2006
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          Hi!
          I will try to answer both, but you should look in other replies cause I am not most competent here.
          1. I am not sure Erpr is referred to as Jörmunreks son in any of the existing sources. In Guðrunarhvöt he is a son of Guðrún and king Jónakr. In Hamðismál you can meet two distinct persons called Erpr – Erpr Jónakrs sonr ok Guðrunar (together with Sörli and Hamðir) and Erpr Atla sonr (together with Eitill his brother). The latters were killed by Guðrún herself to make Atli suffer for the murder of her kin as it is said in Atlakviða (“Kallar-a þú síðan / til knéa þinna / Erp né Eitil / ölreifa tvᔠAk. 38) and Hamðismál (“Atla þóttisk þú stríða / at Erps morði / ok at Eitils aldrlagi” Hm. 8). If you mean them or those three brothers (Erpr, Sörli and Hamðir), who in Hamðismál rode out to kill Jörmunrekr and thus avenge their sister Svanhildr (“at hefna Svanhildar” Hm. 2), I can offer following ideas (sorry for eventual absence of proper references as I have no large library at hand in the moment):
          PG. *erpaz meant “brown”, swarthy”, “dark-haired” (of persons), cf. OE eorp; OHG erpf etc. In Old Norse jarpr (e > ja) was the common form. Erpr as a name seems to have been borrowed from the continent as well as the whole plot of the story, where this name was originally applied to one of the sons of Attila (ON Atli). Erpr and Eitill are most often supposed to be Germanic substitutes for actual names of Attila’s sons as recorded by Jordanes ([H]ernac and Ellac – Getica 266 resp. 262) and Priscus (’Ηρνάχ – Fragmenta 36). What these had meant to Huns or rather Alans (if Iranic as I heard) I don’t know (it would be very interesting to learn). But Erpr was definitely given the meaning “swarthy”, “dark-haired” with special reference to anthropological peculiarities of Huns as compared with contemporary Teutons. This can be seen from calling Erpr “swarthy boy” (“jarpskammr” Hm. 12) and “bastard” (“hornungr” Hm. 14) by his brethren before they slew him. Note that
          he was born “of another mother” (“inn sundrmæðri” Hm. 13), maybe she was thought to be of Hunnish origin.
          Sörli and Hamðir are also mentioned by Jordanes as Sarus and Ammius (Getica 129). These at least seem to be Germanic. G. Köbler (Köbler Gerhard. Gotisches Wörterbuch. – 2. Auflage, 1989 at http://www.koeblergerhard.de/) derives lat.-germ. Sarus from Gothic sarwa pl. “arms”, “war equipment”. If so, it would be *Sarws (?) in Gothic. Diminutive *Sarwila would regularly produce Sörli in ON.
          Ammius is supposed to be *Hamjis (ibidem). Somewhere else I saw *Hamathius (from non-attested *hama- “cloth”, “body” and thius “servant”) that would better correspond with ON Hamðir.

          2. OE Geatas (= ON Gautar) are NOT Goths though relative to them. Gautar were a tribe that did not move from Sweden. The names *Gauta- and *Guta- are certainly close cognate but still distinct (different stages of the second Ablaut class – is this the proper English terminology?)

          By the way, colleagues, did anyone try to reconstruct Gothic “liuth” of that sad story about Sarus and Ammius and their sister?

          Best regards
          Ualarauans


          michalcigan <michalcigan@...> wrote: Could someone help me?
          I have two questions, problems...
          1/I search for the meaning, or ethymology of the names of Jormunrek's
          sons, especially Erpr. Any ideas?
          2/And secon one, from wikipedia I have an information, that old
          english Geates/jeates/- in Beowulf located in Scandinavia - are Goths
          /it should be a reminiscence on their original homeland befor "the
          exodus" southward from south scandinavia/.
          Can I Belive this idea?








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        • Ingemar Nordgren
          Hi Michal, ... lineal connection between ... this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there is a connection, than of what kind? There is
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 24, 2006
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            Hi Michal,

            > So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no
            lineal connection between
            > "gothic homeland" - at least I heard so but im not a specialist on
            this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there
            is a connection, than of what kind?

            There is a connection as far as I see. The wandering Vistula Goths
            might be a mixture of indigenous Wielbark people with roots from the
            Oxhöfde and other local cultures with adding of people from all over
            Scandinavia and Gotland. Whether the religious origin is from
            Scandinavia or if it is common is unclear but regarding the remaining
            geographical names and my analysis of the developement in Scandinavia
            from the last part of the bronze age and during the pre-Roman Iron Age
            this origin is probably Scandinavian. The Scandinavian immigrants are
            however seemingly a minority having imposed their belief by means of
            Gefolgschaft groups according to the model of Pritsak and his
            carismatic clans. This have taken place during a longer period from
            about 350 BC to around beginning of CE and the last addment is with
            the forming of the Gepids around 200 CE. Heather regards Wielbark as a
            not homogenous group archaeologically but giving the impression of a
            cultic league. The contacts between these peoples probably were upheld
            also during the Gothic wars and finds in Scandinavia suggest that
            Scandinavians took part in the wars and the finds increase after the
            defeat of the Huns when seemingly som groups returned up here. There
            is local tales of the 'Hunahär'-the Hunnic army or Hunnerheere. Anders
            Kaliff in his Gothic Connections also has shown intensive contacts
            between chieftains in Scandinavia and the Vistula area alredy during
            late Bronze Age. Hence the Geats are related to the Gautar or Jutar
            and so indirectly to the Goths, but they never took part of the Gothic
            wars or cooperated with the Continental Goths.

            >
            > What exactly do You mean by term "teophoric" - Gaut is some kind
            of mythical ancestor?

            Gaut is evidently an original creator god from whom both the peoples
            and also the royal families descend. All Gothic tribes/peoples have
            taken their name after the god-hence teophoric. Later he was combined
            with Óðinn to Óðinn-Gaut. It means those royal families of both the
            Goths, The Jutes and other AS royal families begin with a semi-god - a
            son of a human and a god. The Gothic kings were just regarded as
            heroes- i.e. semi-gods. Note that all people that claim ancestry from
            Gaut and all royal families who do that are either provenly come from
            Scandinavia or claim to do so. Hence Gaut was a Scandinavian
            predecessor to the later continental cult of Óðinn which took power in
            Scandinavia finally around 500 CE.

            I do not know where you live, but I can inform that there will be a
            symposion in Sweden in august this year where I am moderator. There
            the leading Scandinavian and North German researchers will lecture for
            three days about the topic 'Cult, Gold and Power' and these topics
            above will be treated among else. We have 21 lecturers and it will all
            be published later with English summaries in a book that I will edit.
            But till then I suggest you read my book, because the arguments I can
            give in this discussion are not sufficiently convincing without the
            hard background-stuff of details.

            Best
            Ingemar
          • Tore Gannholm
            Ingemar, Thank you. This is the best way I have seen this explained. It also fits very well in with our earlier discussions. I hope Dirk reads it also. Tore
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 24, 2006
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              Ingemar,
              Thank you.
              This is the best way I have seen this explained. It also fits very
              well in with our earlier discussions. I hope Dirk reads it also.

              Tore

              On Mar 25, 2006, at 12:41 AM, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

              > Hi Michal,
              >
              >> So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no
              > lineal connection between
              >> "gothic homeland" - at least I heard so but im not a specialist on
              > this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there
              > is a connection, than of what kind?
              >
              > There is a connection as far as I see. The wandering Vistula Goths
              > might be a mixture of indigenous Wielbark people with roots from the
              > Oxhöfde and other local cultures with adding of people from all over
              > Scandinavia and Gotland. Whether the religious origin is from
              > Scandinavia or if it is common is unclear but regarding the remaining
              > geographical names and my analysis of the developement in Scandinavia
              > from the last part of the bronze age and during the pre-Roman Iron Age
              > this origin is probably Scandinavian. The Scandinavian immigrants are
              > however seemingly a minority having imposed their belief by means of
              > Gefolgschaft groups according to the model of Pritsak and his
              > carismatic clans. This have taken place during a longer period from
              > about 350 BC to around beginning of CE and the last addment is with
              > the forming of the Gepids around 200 CE. Heather regards Wielbark as a
              > not homogenous group archaeologically but giving the impression of a
              > cultic league. The contacts between these peoples probably were upheld
              > also during the Gothic wars and finds in Scandinavia suggest that
              > Scandinavians took part in the wars and the finds increase after the
              > defeat of the Huns when seemingly som groups returned up here. There
              > is local tales of the 'Hunahär'-the Hunnic army or Hunnerheere. Anders
              > Kaliff in his Gothic Connections also has shown intensive contacts
              > between chieftains in Scandinavia and the Vistula area alredy during
              > late Bronze Age. Hence the Geats are related to the Gautar or Jutar
              > and so indirectly to the Goths, but they never took part of the Gothic
              > wars or cooperated with the Continental Goths.
              >
              >>
              >> What exactly do You mean by term "teophoric" - Gaut is some kind
              > of mythical ancestor?
              >
              > Gaut is evidently an original creator god from whom both the peoples
              > and also the royal families descend. All Gothic tribes/peoples have
              > taken their name after the god-hence teophoric. Later he was combined
              > with Óðinn to Óðinn-Gaut. It means those royal families of both the
              > Goths, The Jutes and other AS royal families begin with a semi-god - a
              > son of a human and a god. The Gothic kings were just regarded as
              > heroes- i.e. semi-gods. Note that all people that claim ancestry from
              > Gaut and all royal families who do that are either provenly come from
              > Scandinavia or claim to do so. Hence Gaut was a Scandinavian
              > predecessor to the later continental cult of Óðinn which took power in
              > Scandinavia finally around 500 CE.
              >
              > I do not know where you live, but I can inform that there will be a
              > symposion in Sweden in august this year where I am moderator. There
              > the leading Scandinavian and North German researchers will lecture for
              > three days about the topic 'Cult, Gold and Power' and these topics
              > above will be treated among else. We have 21 lecturers and it will all
              > be published later with English summaries in a book that I will edit.
              > But till then I suggest you read my book, because the arguments I can
              > give in this discussion are not sufficiently convincing without the
              > hard background-stuff of details.
              >
              > Best
              > Ingemar
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • OSCAR HERRERA
              my rendition of the grail.........weihagragl.......ik gawigan thuts af stoth du stoth,ni ewa aflifnandan in stoth ain, ewa soknjandan, galeikaida knauts
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 26, 2006
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                my rendition of the grail.........weihagragl.......ik gawigan thuts af stoth du stoth,ni ewa aflifnandan in stoth ain, ewa soknjandan, galeikaida knauts gasoknjana, faur tho gragl swaswe luif, swe nehwa auk swaswe fairrapro,nehwajaba in siuna, auk ni ewa siunitha, ik gag ana jah ana, unte tho anda ist nehwa ina, jah ik mag hausjan aggilus wulthein haitadam, ik skal drigk fram tho stikl, skal wisa gabigein jah silds thai thaurba, faur in tho anda, tho stikl libain wilja haldan, jah libain wulthein ist, jah gakunnan sah, ik gasoknjan.......oscar

                Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote: Ingemar,
                Thank you.
                This is the best way I have seen this explained. It also fits very
                well in with our earlier discussions. I hope Dirk reads it also.

                Tore

                On Mar 25, 2006, at 12:41 AM, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

                > Hi Michal,
                >
                >> So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no
                > lineal connection between
                >> "gothic homeland" - at least I heard so but im not a specialist on
                > this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there
                > is a connection, than of what kind?
                >
                > There is a connection as far as I see. The wandering Vistula Goths
                > might be a mixture of indigenous Wielbark people with roots from the
                > Oxhöfde and other local cultures with adding of people from all over
                > Scandinavia and Gotland. Whether the religious origin is from
                > Scandinavia or if it is common is unclear but regarding the remaining
                > geographical names and my analysis of the developement in Scandinavia
                > from the last part of the bronze age and during the pre-Roman Iron Age
                > this origin is probably Scandinavian. The Scandinavian immigrants are
                > however seemingly a minority having imposed their belief by means of
                > Gefolgschaft groups according to the model of Pritsak and his
                > carismatic clans. This have taken place during a longer period from
                > about 350 BC to around beginning of CE and the last addment is with
                > the forming of the Gepids around 200 CE. Heather regards Wielbark as a
                > not homogenous group archaeologically but giving the impression of a
                > cultic league. The contacts between these peoples probably were upheld
                > also during the Gothic wars and finds in Scandinavia suggest that
                > Scandinavians took part in the wars and the finds increase after the
                > defeat of the Huns when seemingly som groups returned up here. There
                > is local tales of the 'Hunahär'-the Hunnic army or Hunnerheere. Anders
                > Kaliff in his Gothic Connections also has shown intensive contacts
                > between chieftains in Scandinavia and the Vistula area alredy during
                > late Bronze Age. Hence the Geats are related to the Gautar or Jutar
                > and so indirectly to the Goths, but they never took part of the Gothic
                > wars or cooperated with the Continental Goths.
                >
                >>
                >> What exactly do You mean by term "teophoric" - Gaut is some kind
                > of mythical ancestor?
                >
                > Gaut is evidently an original creator god from whom both the peoples
                > and also the royal families descend. All Gothic tribes/peoples have
                > taken their name after the god-hence teophoric. Later he was combined
                > with Óðinn to Óðinn-Gaut. It means those royal families of both the
                > Goths, The Jutes and other AS royal families begin with a semi-god - a
                > son of a human and a god. The Gothic kings were just regarded as
                > heroes- i.e. semi-gods. Note that all people that claim ancestry from
                > Gaut and all royal families who do that are either provenly come from
                > Scandinavia or claim to do so. Hence Gaut was a Scandinavian
                > predecessor to the later continental cult of Óðinn which took power in
                > Scandinavia finally around 500 CE.
                >
                > I do not know where you live, but I can inform that there will be a
                > symposion in Sweden in august this year where I am moderator. There
                > the leading Scandinavian and North German researchers will lecture for
                > three days about the topic 'Cult, Gold and Power' and these topics
                > above will be treated among else. We have 21 lecturers and it will all
                > be published later with English summaries in a book that I will edit.
                > But till then I suggest you read my book, because the arguments I can
                > give in this discussion are not sufficiently convincing without the
                > hard background-stuff of details.
                >
                > Best
                > Ingemar
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Michal Cigan
                Zdravim Ta, My mistake, of course, i ment Jonakr as their father not Jormunrek... Anyway, I thing that etymology -especially in the case of Erpr - which You
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 27, 2006
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                  Zdravim Ta,

                  My mistake, of course, i ment Jonakr as their father not Jormunrek...
                  Anyway, I thing that etymology -especially in the case of Erpr - which You suggested seems to be reliable - at least from
                  my point of view. Im not a germanic linguist, but maybe little bit folklorist, and I thing that
                  "swarthy" in the case of Erpr reflects quite good his hypothetical structural-functional position in patterns of indoeuropean narrative tradition.
                  Thanx

                  Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote: Hi!
                  I will try to answer both, but you should look in other replies cause I am not most competent here.
                  1. I am not sure Erpr is referred to as Jörmunreks son in any of the existing sources. In Guðrunarhvöt he is a son of Guðrún and king Jónakr. In Hamðismál you can meet two distinct persons called Erpr – Erpr Jónakrs sonr ok Guðrunar (together with Sörli and Hamðir) and Erpr Atla sonr (together with Eitill his brother). The latters were killed by Guðrún herself to make Atli suffer for the murder of her kin as it is said in Atlakviða (“Kallar-a þú síðan / til knéa þinna / Erp né Eitil / ölreifa tvᔠAk. 38) and Hamðismál (“Atla þóttisk þú stríða / at Erps morði / ok at Eitils aldrlagi” Hm. 8). If you mean them or those three brothers (Erpr, Sörli and Hamðir), who in Hamðismál rode out to kill Jörmunrekr and thus avenge their sister Svanhildr (“at hefna Svanhildar” Hm. 2), I can offer following ideas (sorry for eventual absence of proper references as I have no large library at hand in the moment):
                  PG. *erpaz meant “brown”, swarthy”, “dark-haired” (of persons), cf. OE eorp; OHG erpf etc. In Old Norse jarpr (e > ja) was the common form. Erpr as a name seems to have been borrowed from the continent as well as the whole plot of the story, where this name was originally applied to one of the sons of Attila (ON Atli). Erpr and Eitill are most often supposed to be Germanic substitutes for actual names of Attila’s sons as recorded by Jordanes ([H]ernac and Ellac – Getica 266 resp. 262) and Priscus (’Ηρνάχ – Fragmenta 36). What these had meant to Huns or rather Alans (if Iranic as I heard) I don’t know (it would be very interesting to learn). But Erpr was definitely given the meaning “swarthy”, “dark-haired” with special reference to anthropological peculiarities of Huns as compared with contemporary Teutons. This can be seen from calling Erpr “swarthy boy” (“jarpskammr” Hm. 12) and “bastard” (“hornungr” Hm. 14) by his brethren before they
                  slew him. Note that
                  he was born “of another mother” (“inn sundrmæðri” Hm. 13), maybe she was thought to be of Hunnish origin.
                  Sörli and Hamðir are also mentioned by Jordanes as Sarus and Ammius (Getica 129). These at least seem to be Germanic. G. Köbler (Köbler Gerhard. Gotisches Wörterbuch. – 2. Auflage, 1989 at http://www.koeblergerhard.de/) derives lat.-germ. Sarus from Gothic sarwa pl. “arms”, “war equipment”. If so, it would be *Sarws (?) in Gothic. Diminutive *Sarwila would regularly produce Sörli in ON.
                  Ammius is supposed to be *Hamjis (ibidem). Somewhere else I saw *Hamathius (from non-attested *hama- “cloth”, “body” and thius “servant”) that would better correspond with ON Hamðir.

                  2. OE Geatas (= ON Gautar) are NOT Goths though relative to them. Gautar were a tribe that did not move from Sweden. The names *Gauta- and *Guta- are certainly close cognate but still distinct (different stages of the second Ablaut class – is this the proper English terminology?)

                  By the way, colleagues, did anyone try to reconstruct Gothic “liuth” of that sad story about Sarus and Ammius and their sister?

                  Best regards
                  Ualarauans


                  michalcigan <michalcigan@...> wrote: Could someone help me?
                  I have two questions, problems...
                  1/I search for the meaning, or ethymology of the names of Jormunrek's
                  sons, especially Erpr. Any ideas?
                  2/And secon one, from wikipedia I have an information, that old
                  english Geates/jeates/- in Beowulf located in Scandinavia - are Goths
                  /it should be a reminiscence on their original homeland befor "the
                  exodus" southward from south scandinavia/.
                  Can I Belive this idea?








                  You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



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                • Michal Cigan
                  Hallo Ingemar Thanx for Your invitation , but I live in Slovakia / attention, not Slovenia :) / - so it could be little bit problem to join that action
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 28, 2006
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                    Hallo Ingemar

                    Thanx for Your "invitation", but I live in Slovakia / attention, not Slovenia :) / - so it could be little bit problem to join that "action" for me - but I'm interested in that planned summarying book - please let me know, when it will be actual /and You wil remember :)/

                    Your "gothic concept" seems to me interesting - especially from one reason:
                    maybe this facts could be responsible for (or at least could have something to do with) the phenomenon which can be observed - more or less - across all the germanic mediaval tradition, especially in epic genre: I mean, that many of them - old english, scandinavian, german - bear something like "gothic stamp" - concerning some heroes, events, stories and so on.
                    Do You have, or anyone else, any additional idea, from what reason those traditions have such a "gothic stamp"?

                    Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote: Hi Michal,

                    > So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no
                    lineal connection between
                    > "gothic homeland" - at least I heard so but im not a specialist on
                    this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there
                    is a connection, than of what kind?

                    There is a connection as far as I see. The wandering Vistula Goths
                    might be a mixture of indigenous Wielbark people with roots from the
                    Oxhöfde and other local cultures with adding of people from all over
                    Scandinavia and Gotland. Whether the religious origin is from
                    Scandinavia or if it is common is unclear but regarding the remaining
                    geographical names and my analysis of the developement in Scandinavia
                    from the last part of the bronze age and during the pre-Roman Iron Age
                    this origin is probably Scandinavian. The Scandinavian immigrants are
                    however seemingly a minority having imposed their belief by means of
                    Gefolgschaft groups according to the model of Pritsak and his
                    carismatic clans. This have taken place during a longer period from
                    about 350 BC to around beginning of CE and the last addment is with
                    the forming of the Gepids around 200 CE. Heather regards Wielbark as a
                    not homogenous group archaeologically but giving the impression of a
                    cultic league. The contacts between these peoples probably were upheld
                    also during the Gothic wars and finds in Scandinavia suggest that
                    Scandinavians took part in the wars and the finds increase after the
                    defeat of the Huns when seemingly som groups returned up here. There
                    is local tales of the 'Hunahär'-the Hunnic army or Hunnerheere. Anders
                    Kaliff in his Gothic Connections also has shown intensive contacts
                    between chieftains in Scandinavia and the Vistula area alredy during
                    late Bronze Age. Hence the Geats are related to the Gautar or Jutar
                    and so indirectly to the Goths, but they never took part of the Gothic
                    wars or cooperated with the Continental Goths.

                    >
                    > What exactly do You mean by term "teophoric" - Gaut is some kind
                    of mythical ancestor?

                    Gaut is evidently an original creator god from whom both the peoples
                    and also the royal families descend. All Gothic tribes/peoples have
                    taken their name after the god-hence teophoric. Later he was combined
                    with Óðinn to Óðinn-Gaut. It means those royal families of both the
                    Goths, The Jutes and other AS royal families begin with a semi-god - a
                    son of a human and a god. The Gothic kings were just regarded as
                    heroes- i.e. semi-gods. Note that all people that claim ancestry from
                    Gaut and all royal families who do that are either provenly come from
                    Scandinavia or claim to do so. Hence Gaut was a Scandinavian
                    predecessor to the later continental cult of Óðinn which took power in
                    Scandinavia finally around 500 CE.

                    I do not know where you live, but I can inform that there will be a
                    symposion in Sweden in august this year where I am moderator. There
                    the leading Scandinavian and North German researchers will lecture for
                    three days about the topic 'Cult, Gold and Power' and these topics
                    above will be treated among else. We have 21 lecturers and it will all
                    be published later with English summaries in a book that I will edit.
                    But till then I suggest you read my book, because the arguments I can
                    give in this discussion are not sufficiently convincing without the
                    hard background-stuff of details.

                    Best
                    Ingemar









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                  • Ingemar Nordgren
                    Hi Michal, ... not Slovenia :) / - so it could be little bit problem to join that action for me - but I m interested in that planned summarying book -
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 28, 2006
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                      Hi Michal,

                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michal Cigan <michalcigan@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hallo Ingemar
                      >
                      > Thanx for Your "invitation", but I live in Slovakia / attention,
                      not Slovenia :) / - so it could be little bit problem to join that
                      "action" for me - but I'm interested in that planned summarying book
                      - please let me know, when it will be actual /and You wil remember :)/

                      Rest assured the book will be announced on this list when it is ready.
                      I fully understand that a symposion in Scandinavian languages is
                      incomprehensible to you, even if Sweden is not that far away from
                      Slovakia.If, however, someone appears from abroad there will be
                      already written English summaries at hand but we must primarily
                      satisfy the paying local public. Even the Germans lecture in
                      Scandinavian languages.

                      >
                      > Your "gothic concept" seems to me interesting - especially from
                      one reason:
                      > maybe this facts could be responsible for (or at least could have
                      something to do with) the phenomenon which can be observed - more or
                      less - across all the germanic mediaval tradition, especially in epic
                      genre: I mean, that many of them - old english, scandinavian, german
                      - bear something like "gothic stamp" - concerning some heroes,
                      events, stories and so on.
                      > Do You have, or anyone else, any additional idea, from what reason
                      those traditions have such a "gothic stamp"?

                      The normal explanation is that the Gothic deeds were that great that
                      they were remembered by all Germanic peoples and so were the Huns that
                      nominally ruled for a period all the way up to the Baltic shore- if we
                      beleive the Getica of course. The problem however is that most of this
                      knowledge is transferred from the Icelandic literature of the 12th c.
                      and later and hence it is hard to say really what remained of lore on
                      the continent before that. There are the stories of Didrik of Bern of
                      course, and the statue of Teoderik that was moved from Ravenna to
                      Aachen is referred to on the Rök-stone in Sweden in the Viking period.
                      He was known as Didrik of Bern after his death. Most continental
                      written lore however is pure medieval as far as I recall. Hence I dare
                      not say too much in this respect but you might indeed have a clue with
                      your suggestion. Most of the knowledge of lore anyway was saved up
                      North and reexported it seems. If I am wrong, which of course is
                      possible, I will quite sure be corrected by an expert on lore.

                      Best greetings
                      Ingemar
                    • Tim Caldwell
                      ... have ... or ... epic ... german ... reason ... that ... that ... if we ... this ... c. ... on ... of ... period. ... dare ... with ... Hi Ingemar and
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 28, 2006
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                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@...>
                        wrote:

                        > > Your "gothic concept" seems to me interesting - especially from
                        > one reason:
                        > > maybe this facts could be responsible for (or at least could
                        have
                        > something to do with) the phenomenon which can be observed - more
                        or
                        > less - across all the germanic mediaval tradition, especially in
                        epic
                        > genre: I mean, that many of them - old english, scandinavian,
                        german
                        > - bear something like "gothic stamp" - concerning some heroes,
                        > events, stories and so on.
                        > > Do You have, or anyone else, any additional idea, from what
                        reason
                        > those traditions have such a "gothic stamp"?
                        >
                        > The normal explanation is that the Gothic deeds were that great
                        that
                        > they were remembered by all Germanic peoples and so were the Huns
                        that
                        > nominally ruled for a period all the way up to the Baltic shore-
                        if we
                        > beleive the Getica of course. The problem however is that most of
                        this
                        > knowledge is transferred from the Icelandic literature of the 12th
                        c.
                        > and later and hence it is hard to say really what remained of lore
                        on
                        > the continent before that. There are the stories of Didrik of Bern
                        of
                        > course, and the statue of Teoderik that was moved from Ravenna to
                        > Aachen is referred to on the Rök-stone in Sweden in the Viking
                        period.
                        > He was known as Didrik of Bern after his death. Most continental
                        > written lore however is pure medieval as far as I recall. Hence I
                        dare
                        > not say too much in this respect but you might indeed have a clue
                        with
                        > your suggestion. Most of the knowledge of lore anyway was saved up
                        > North and reexported it seems. If I am wrong, which of course is
                        > possible, I will quite sure be corrected by an expert on lore.
                        >
                        > Best greetings
                        > Ingemar
                        >



                        Hi Ingemar and Michal,

                        I think this question about the "Gothic stamp" is very interesting-
                        hadn't really thought about it before. Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian
                        sources seem quite familiar with Goths like Ermanaric who to my
                        knowledge weren't particularly significant outside of Gothic
                        territory. So maybe there's more to it than just the Goths' great
                        deeds.

                        I'm no "expert on lore", but I thought I'd throw in another theory.
                        Tales like these tended to flow from people to people in the form of
                        alliterative songs/poems recited by professional gleemen, who
                        travelled the Germanic world learning, composing and reciting their
                        songs. If the Gothic chieftains prized these poets even more than
                        other Germanic peoples, and rewarded visiting poets particularly
                        generously, the poets would be particularly attracted to Gothic
                        lands, and learn a disproportionate amount of Gothic material.

                        The Anglo-Saxon poem Widsið might support this idea quite well. The
                        poet who composed it, who says he hailed from the Myrging people of
                        Angeln, mentions his visit to the Gothic king Eormanric right at the
                        start of the poem, and later says:

                        "And I was with Eormanric for quite a while,
                        where the king of the Goths was graciously kind to me.
                        He, the ruler of the city-dwellers, gave me a collar
                        in which there was six hundred coins' worth
                        of pure gold, counted by shillings."

                        This generosity towards poets seems particularly significant given
                        that the poet had already described Eormanric as an oath-breaker;
                        and Anglo-Saxon tradition remembers Eormanric as a particularly
                        cruel man who in some ways represented the antithesis of the
                        Germanic kingly ideal. The poet also says:

                        "From there I travelled through the Gothic homeland --
                        I always sought out the best companions --
                        that was Eormanric's household guard!"

                        To a traveling poet, the best hosts will be the ones who are most
                        appreciative of their work, and the most open-handed!

                        It was primarily these minstrels who were responsible for recording
                        Germanic tribal "history", and their activities would be a decisive
                        factor in controling what information and news was disseminated and
                        remembered, and what was not. Whatever the explanation for
                        the "Gothic stamp" is, it's quite possible that the travelling
                        minstrels had an important part to play.

                        Cheers,
                        Tim
                      • Ingemar Nordgren
                        Hi Tim, Long time no see on this list. I think you have a point indeed since of course the minstrels were the persons spreading those poems and everyone making
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 29, 2006
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                          Hi Tim,

                          Long time no see on this list. I think you have a point indeed since
                          of course the minstrels were the persons spreading those poems and
                          everyone making his own adding to the story or own variant to suit the
                          lord he entertained. The main reason I think that so much had been
                          preserved on Iceland was the fact that most, not to say all, of the
                          leading courtminstrels at all the Scandinavian courts came from a very
                          few and selective Icelandic families who claimed just a background
                          from what the Icelanders called Eastscandinavia ,i.e. Sweden and
                          Denmark, and also had a fertility cult background from Frey and Freya
                          which was not common on Iceland. The mother was leading in those
                          families meaning the children took name after her - a matrilinear
                          tradition from the fertilitycult - and she used to be the local
                          frejadis- pristess of Freya - and the farm type they possessed was
                          called Sauerbær-farms implying that they used animal fertilizer-dunge-
                          from breeding of pigs in farming. The families stuck strong to their
                          origin and preserved and told stories from the time before landnam for
                          their children. In such way the deeds of their ancestors were never
                          totally forgotten and those traditions hence originally came from
                          Scandinavia.

                          Best wishes
                          Ingemar



                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Caldwell" <vikingtimbo650@...>
                          wrote:

                          > I'm no "expert on lore", but I thought I'd throw in another theory.
                          > Tales like these tended to flow from people to people in the form of
                          > alliterative songs/poems recited by professional gleemen, who
                          > travelled the Germanic world learning, composing and reciting their
                          > songs. If the Gothic chieftains prized these poets even more than
                          > other Germanic peoples, and rewarded visiting poets particularly
                          > generously, the poets would be particularly attracted to Gothic
                          > lands, and learn a disproportionate amount of Gothic material.
                          >
                          > The Anglo-Saxon poem Widsið might support this idea quite well. The
                          > poet who composed it, who says he hailed from the Myrging people of
                          > Angeln, mentions his visit to the Gothic king Eormanric right at the
                          > start of the poem, and later says:
                          >
                          > "And I was with Eormanric for quite a while,
                          > where the king of the Goths was graciously kind to me.
                          > He, the ruler of the city-dwellers, gave me a collar
                          > in which there was six hundred coins' worth
                          > of pure gold, counted by shillings."
                          >
                          > This generosity towards poets seems particularly significant given
                          > that the poet had already described Eormanric as an oath-breaker;
                          > and Anglo-Saxon tradition remembers Eormanric as a particularly
                          > cruel man who in some ways represented the antithesis of the
                          > Germanic kingly ideal. The poet also says:
                          >
                          > "From there I travelled through the Gothic homeland --
                          > I always sought out the best companions --
                          > that was Eormanric's household guard!"
                          >
                          > To a traveling poet, the best hosts will be the ones who are most
                          > appreciative of their work, and the most open-handed!
                          >
                          > It was primarily these minstrels who were responsible for recording
                          > Germanic tribal "history", and their activities would be a decisive
                          > factor in controling what information and news was disseminated and
                          > remembered, and what was not. Whatever the explanation for
                          > the "Gothic stamp" is, it's quite possible that the travelling
                          > minstrels had an important part to play.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > Tim
                          >
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