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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Poety to translate?

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  • Guenther Ramm
    Golja Thuk, Thiudan! Thanks for your reply. *Fifald(r)o is great! Talking about this, is the first syllable a reduplication? If so, the spelling should be
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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      Golja Thuk, Thiudan!

      Thanks for your reply. *Fifald(r)o is great! Talking about this, is the first syllable a reduplication? If so, the spelling should be *faifaldro (with ai [e]) perhaps. But as far as I know (and that’s not a long distance) there are no nouns with a (vivid) reduplication attested in Gothic, are they? And how is it (if it is) connected with the stem represented in Gothic falthan (cf. nhd. Falter : falten – maybe a later association?). The verb at least IS a reduplicative one (Past tense: faifalth).
      About the “Grail” it might be of some interest to speculate.
      If we postulate a loanword from MLatin, then forms like *gradels, *gradaleis or whatever more would do. But if trying to “find” a Gothic pendant the foremost question that arises is what the Grail actually was (is) – a cup, a stone, a gem etc. Here we are threatened to get lost in a rather off-topic discussion that traces down to the Middle Age, moreover this vagueness seems to be an integral part of the legend.
      Let us proceed from the offered text © Michael Adams where it is a cup. Then stikls is the first that comes to the mind. Checking up its attestations in Ulfilan codices we come across both sacral and profane usages (cf. John 18:11 “stikl thanei gaf mis atta, niu drigkau thana?” and esp. Cor. I. 10:16 ff. “stikls thiuthiqissais thanei gaweiham, niu gamainduths blothis fraujins ist?” versus Mk. 7:4 “daupeinins stikle jah aurkje jah katile jah ligre” et sim.). I guess, to refer more precisely to the denotate we could try and “find” some composita with -stikls as the second element, e. g.:
      *weihastikls “the holy cup”,
      *xristustikls “Christ’s cup”, or even
      *blothastikls “blood cup” though the latter sounds somewhat “vampiric”, doesn’t it? Cf. however Cor. I. 11:25 “sa stikls so niujo triggwa ist in meinamma blotha“ > *triggwastikls?
      Could we then draw hence some parallels to Pre-Christian items attested in other Germanic areas, e. g. ON. (Eyrbyggja saga) hlautbolli “cup of sacrificial blood used in rituals” etc. and thus make our reconstruction more “historically verifiable”?

      Now let me offer you my attempt to translate the whole verse (I’m afraid I again digressed too far from the original)

      THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
      one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
      for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
      sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
      and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
      I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
      shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
      sweet, and to know this, I quest.

      STIKLIS SOKNS
      Ungastoths hvarbo [ik] bi hveilain ni saurgands
      Sinteino sokjands stilk thana weihan
      *Laiwin galeiks saei laisteith tho stairnon
      Merjandein *mariwig faura maurginis uhtwon
      – Swiknana stikl ni bisauleith manna
      Afguths jah unwairths, arwjo skal sokjan –
      Framis nu farja bi fulginai mundrein
      Und thana andi, than aggiljus haitand mik
      Skaunjaim stibnom. Stikl than andnima
      Dragk thata *diurjo drigka us thamma
      Junda tho aiweinon aigi sa wairtha
      Libains galauba – laun this sokjandins


      Some remarks

      *laiwin is Dat. Sg. from *laiwa M. -an “boat”, “small ship” – a hypothetical Finnish borrowing (Fin. laiva, Est. laev “idem”) into Gothic when crossing the Baltic Sea. In fact it’s highly improbable that Goths being evidently a sea-shore nation experienced in seafaring already before the migration started would adopt marine terminology from elsewhere. Here it’s just for the sake of rhyme.
      To compare the seeker with a ship that follows its way through the dark of the night guided by the Pole Star (here “so stairno”) would seem to fit the supposed “language consciousness” of Viking Goths better than the “Knight on a Quest” motive which is rather medieval. All the above-said can easily be nonsense since I know too little about the subject.

      *mariwigs “sea-way” (for mari- as the first element cf. mari-saiws).
      “merjan wig” for “to show the way” sounds somewhat alien. A variant is “Mundondein mans sis faura maurginis uhtwon”, i.e. “that (sc. the Star) looks down upon humans before the day is breaking” (problems with word-order, I see).

      *diureis adj. -ja “precious” (= ME dear)

      Excuse my limited vocabulary, up to the nearest time all I disposed of was a brief glossary in W. Braune’s Gotische Grammatik (13. Auflage. – Halle/Saale: Max Niemeyer Verlag, 1952). Now looking into Streitberg’s (best thanks to Project Wulfila) I tell to myself “And you thought you know the language!”

      Craving for your opinions and comments
      Ualarauans

      P. S. By the way, I heard there were authors that assumed a closer bond between actual Visigoths and the Grail legends. Since I did not read the books I can not judge if this idea is scientifically grounded or is it just a fancy of historical fiction writers.


      thiudans <thiudans@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:

      Hails!

      Nice translation & alliteration!
      No grammar comments now.
      I like flower-fly, nice invention.
      The first line has many syllables so I will offer a shorter one for
      possibility of longer notes:

      > O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis

      O *fifaldo waliso, (hwaiwa) theinamma winda-staigon galeiko

      "how like that wind-road (you ride)". I thought riding is implicit in
      "road" perhaps.

      If Grail shall be a borrowing = Gradéls-. Else, the attested word
      Stikls will do fine.



      cheers,
      The Moderator






      > Hails, *Garazdans!
      > Would you mind another translation attempt? Not always a
      word-for-word one, of cause, but instead I tried to "reconstruct" here
      and there some of alliterative rhyme. All those clumsy "neologisms"
      are mine (just slapdash invented and without any claim to get into the
      waurdahuzd).
      > By the way, I would be very thankful for every hint about what
      Gothic "butterfly" or rather "Grail" be like.
      >
      > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
      > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
      > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
      > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
      > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
      > held but never let free.
      >
      >
      > O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis
      > Ibai sa fahands thuk frathjan duginnith
      > Hva maht ist haldis nibai hafta thuk fastan
      > Frijos sind *fliugons, thozei fairrathro brahtedun
      > Windos thai waiandans fram waihstam this midjungardis
      > Ni du fragiban thos gumane handum
      > Wai thamma wiljandin winda gatamjan
      > Draum faurdammjan in daubithos hairtins
      >
      > Looking forward a scornful sneer of connoisseurs
      >
      > Ualarauans
      >
      > Michael Adams <abrigon@...> wrote: I am learning to ask first, so I
      do not waste peoples bandwidth
      > to much..
      >
      > Here goes: (two or more)
      >
      > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
      > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
      > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
      > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
      > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
      > held but never let free.
      >
      > THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
      > one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
      > for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
      > sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
      > and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
      > I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
      > shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
      > sweet, and to know this, I quest.
      >
      > VASHTI OF THE FLAME RED TRESSES: Oh my dearest lady mine, for
      > your passing has emptied my heart, but the memories of you will
      > be with me forever. The joy we felt in our youth, the times we
      > spent in our middle years. The things we did here, there and
      > all. Friends we made, times we spent, even when angry we did it
      > in love. How the feeling I do feel at your passing, for you my
      > lady of hair so red was me, and I you, a half has gone away and
      > left me with feelings of what now, not to replace but the
      > feeling of what now? Who can I turn to when I need love,
      > carrying, a gentle hand a soft caress, to be told I was wrong
      > and the love to show me gently. To be there for me, and I for
      > you. Bye my dear lady of flaming hair that lighted up the
      > darkness of my life, for before you there was darkness and now
      > what? Farewell my dear until that day with Gods/fates grace I
      > can join you once again, to walk hand in hand, arm in arm,
      > carress to carress, feel to feel and knowing we will be together
      > always..
      >
      > Mike Adams
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
      email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
      >
      >
      >
      > SPONSORED LINKS
      > Dvd region free All regions dvd player
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      >
      > Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service.
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Send instant messages to your online friends
      http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >






      You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



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    • thiudans
      Hái Guenther, Great job on the Grail! German indeed has a word Falter, which shows lack of reduplicated syllable in the noun (if that s what it is here). Here
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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        Hái Guenther,

        Great job on the Grail!

        German indeed has a word Falter, which shows lack of reduplicated
        syllable in the noun (if that's what it is here). Here is a somewhat
        interesting discussion of the word on a conlang archive which draws
        many comparisons highlighting the repetitive tendencies for this word
        in various human languages:
        http://www.mail-archive.com/conlang@yahoogroups.com/msg00517.html

        Incidentally, I found in Orel's work that he suggests the original
        form was "fenfe-faldjan", i.e. "Fivefolder" which strikes me as rather
        more difficult to connect semantically.

        I cannot speculate on what the Gothic form may have been for this old
        Germanic vocabular asset which succumbed to replacement quite early
        on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that, whatever
        its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight, capable of
        flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the poem, if we
        take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
        *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go. *THlugi
        < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we cannot know
        precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-, Koebler
        seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).


        -Moderator


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:
        >
        > Golja Thuk, Thiudan!
        >
        > Thanks for your reply. *Fifald(r)o is great! Talking about this,
        is the first syllable a reduplication? If so, the spelling should be
        *faifaldro (with ai [e]) perhaps. But as far as I know (and that's not
        a long distance) there are no nouns with a (vivid) reduplication
        attested in Gothic, are they? And how is it (if it is) connected with
        the stem represented in Gothic falthan (cf. nhd. Falter : falten –
        maybe a later association?). The verb at least IS a reduplicative one
        (Past tense: faifalth).
        > About the "Grail" it might be of some interest to speculate.
        > If we postulate a loanword from MLatin, then forms like *gradels,
        *gradaleis or whatever more would do. But if trying to "find" a Gothic
        pendant the foremost question that arises is what the Grail actually
        was (is) – a cup, a stone, a gem etc. Here we are threatened to get
        lost in a rather off-topic discussion that traces down to the Middle
        Age, moreover this vagueness seems to be an integral part of the legend.
        > Let us proceed from the offered text © Michael Adams where it is a
        cup. Then stikls is the first that comes to the mind. Checking up its
        attestations in Ulfilan codices we come across both sacral and profane
        usages (cf. John 18:11 "stikl thanei gaf mis atta, niu drigkau thana?"
        and esp. Cor. I. 10:16 ff. "stikls thiuthiqissais thanei gaweiham, niu
        gamainduths blothis fraujins ist?" versus Mk. 7:4 "daupeinins stikle
        jah aurkje jah katile jah ligre" et sim.). I guess, to refer more
        precisely to the denotate we could try and "find" some composita with
        -stikls as the second element, e. g.:
        > *weihastikls "the holy cup",
        > *xristustikls "Christ's cup", or even
        > *blothastikls "blood cup" though the latter sounds somewhat
        "vampiric", doesn't it? Cf. however Cor. I. 11:25 "sa stikls so niujo
        triggwa ist in meinamma blotha" > *triggwastikls?
        > Could we then draw hence some parallels to Pre-Christian items
        attested in other Germanic areas, e. g. ON. (Eyrbyggja saga)
        hlautbolli "cup of sacrificial blood used in rituals" etc. and thus
        make our reconstruction more "historically verifiable"?
        >
        > Now let me offer you my attempt to translate the whole verse (I'm
        afraid I again digressed too far from the original)
        >
        > THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
        > one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
        > for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
        > sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
        > and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
        > I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
        > shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
        > sweet, and to know this, I quest.
        >
        > STIKLIS SOKNS
        > Ungastoths hvarbo [ik] bi hveilain ni saurgands
        > Sinteino sokjands stilk thana weihan
        > *Laiwin galeiks saei laisteith tho stairnon
        > Merjandein *mariwig faura maurginis uhtwon
        > – Swiknana stikl ni bisauleith manna
        > Afguths jah unwairths, arwjo skal sokjan –
        > Framis nu farja bi fulginai mundrein
        > Und thana andi, than aggiljus haitand mik
        > Skaunjaim stibnom. Stikl than andnima
        > Dragk thata *diurjo drigka us thamma
        > Junda tho aiweinon aigi sa wairtha
        > Libains galauba – laun this sokjandins
        >
        >
        > Some remarks
        >
        > *laiwin is Dat. Sg. from *laiwa M. -an "boat", "small ship" – a
        hypothetical Finnish borrowing (Fin. laiva, Est. laev "idem") into
        Gothic when crossing the Baltic Sea. In fact it's highly improbable
        that Goths being evidently a sea-shore nation experienced in seafaring
        already before the migration started would adopt marine terminology
        from elsewhere. Here it's just for the sake of rhyme.
        > To compare the seeker with a ship that follows its way through the
        dark of the night guided by the Pole Star (here "so stairno") would
        seem to fit the supposed "language consciousness" of Viking Goths
        better than the "Knight on a Quest" motive which is rather medieval.
        All the above-said can easily be nonsense since I know too little
        about the subject.
        >
        > *mariwigs "sea-way" (for mari- as the first element cf. mari-saiws).
        > "merjan wig" for "to show the way" sounds somewhat alien. A
        variant is "Mundondein mans sis faura maurginis uhtwon", i.e. "that
        (sc. the Star) looks down upon humans before the day is breaking"
        (problems with word-order, I see).
        >
        > *diureis adj. -ja "precious" (= ME dear)
        >
        > Excuse my limited vocabulary, up to the nearest time all I
        disposed of was a brief glossary in W. Braune's Gotische Grammatik
        (13. Auflage. – Halle/Saale: Max Niemeyer Verlag, 1952). Now looking
        into Streitberg's (best thanks to Project Wulfila) I tell to myself
        "And you thought you know the language!"
        >
        > Craving for your opinions and comments
        > Ualarauans
        >
        > P. S. By the way, I heard there were authors that assumed a closer
        bond between actual Visigoths and the Grail legends. Since I did not
        read the books I can not judge if this idea is scientifically grounded
        or is it just a fancy of historical fiction writers.
        >
        >
        > thiudans <thiudans@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com,
        Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@> wrote:
        >
        > Hails!
        >
        > Nice translation & alliteration!
        > No grammar comments now.
        > I like flower-fly, nice invention.
        > The first line has many syllables so I will offer a shorter one for
        > possibility of longer notes:
        >
        > > O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis
        >
        > O *fifaldo waliso, (hwaiwa) theinamma winda-staigon galeiko
        >
        > "how like that wind-road (you ride)". I thought riding is implicit in
        > "road" perhaps.
        >
        > If Grail shall be a borrowing = Gradéls-. Else, the attested word
        > Stikls will do fine.
        >
        >
        >
        > cheers,
        > The Moderator
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > Hails, *Garazdans!
        > > Would you mind another translation attempt? Not always a
        > word-for-word one, of cause, but instead I tried to "reconstruct" here
        > and there some of alliterative rhyme. All those clumsy "neologisms"
        > are mine (just slapdash invented and without any claim to get into the
        > waurdahuzd).
        > > By the way, I would be very thankful for every hint about what
        > Gothic "butterfly" or rather "Grail" be like.
        > >
        > > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
        > > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
        > > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
        > > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
        > > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
        > > held but never let free.
        > >
        > >
        > > O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis
        > > Ibai sa fahands thuk frathjan duginnith
        > > Hva maht ist haldis nibai hafta thuk fastan
        > > Frijos sind *fliugons, thozei fairrathro brahtedun
        > > Windos thai waiandans fram waihstam this midjungardis
        > > Ni du fragiban thos gumane handum
        > > Wai thamma wiljandin winda gatamjan
        > > Draum faurdammjan in daubithos hairtins
        > >
        > > Looking forward a scornful sneer of connoisseurs
        > >
        > > Ualarauans
        > >
        > > Michael Adams <abrigon@> wrote: I am learning to ask first, so I
        > do not waste peoples bandwidth
        > > to much..
        > >
        > > Here goes: (two or more)
        > >
        > > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
        > > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
        > > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
        > > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
        > > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
        > > held but never let free.
        > >
        > > THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
        > > one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
        > > for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
        > > sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
        > > and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
        > > I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
        > > shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
        > > sweet, and to know this, I quest.
        > >
        > > VASHTI OF THE FLAME RED TRESSES: Oh my dearest lady mine, for
        > > your passing has emptied my heart, but the memories of you will
        > > be with me forever. The joy we felt in our youth, the times we
        > > spent in our middle years. The things we did here, there and
        > > all. Friends we made, times we spent, even when angry we did it
        > > in love. How the feeling I do feel at your passing, for you my
        > > lady of hair so red was me, and I you, a half has gone away and
        > > left me with feelings of what now, not to replace but the
        > > feeling of what now? Who can I turn to when I need love,
        > > carrying, a gentle hand a soft caress, to be told I was wrong
        > > and the love to show me gently. To be there for me, and I for
        > > you. Bye my dear lady of flaming hair that lighted up the
        > > darkness of my life, for before you there was darkness and now
        > > what? Farewell my dear until that day with Gods/fates grace I
        > > can join you once again, to walk hand in hand, arm in arm,
        > > carress to carress, feel to feel and knowing we will be together
        > > always..
        > >
        > > Mike Adams
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
        > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > SPONSORED LINKS
        > > Dvd region free All regions dvd player
        > >
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        > >
        > > Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service.
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        > > ---------------------------------
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        > >
        > >
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        > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
        email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
        >
        >
        >
        > SPONSORED LINKS
        > Dvd region free All regions dvd player
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >
        > Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Send instant messages to your online friends
        http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • John Stewart
        Hails Thiudans! I haven t read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed awkward to me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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          Hails Thiudans!

          I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed awkward to
          me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe Wulfila
          wrote the Gothic <f> and when it was copied, someone misread it as <Þ> (TH-)?
          (John S.)

          > on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that, whatever
          > its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight, capable of
          > flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the poem, if we
          > take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
          > *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go. *THlugi
          > < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we cannot know
          > precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-, Koebler
          > seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).
          >
        • Fredrik
          Hi! The word seems to be a reduplication of a word meaning flutter, from IE pol or pal. This is related to latin papilio but with the germanic suffix -ðr-
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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            Hi!

            The word seems to be a reduplication of a word meaning flutter, from
            IE pol or pal. This is related to latin papilio but with the germanic
            suffix -ðr- from IE -tr-.
            The german word Falter (from OHG fîfaltra) is of same origin and not
            related to falten but with flattern.
            Another thing I think could be important to notice is that OHG and OE
            has long i. Cf. fîfaltra and fífealde. Also the old nordic languages
            seems to have a long i. I dont know why and if this is a later
            development. But if it was like this in pgmc gothic should have
            *feifaldrô instead.

            (facts based on runeberg.org)

            /Fredrik

            *Fifald(r)o is great! Talking about this, is the first syllable a
            reduplication? If so, the spelling should be *faifaldro (with ai [e])
            perhaps. But as far as I know (and that's not a long distance) there
            are no nouns with a (vivid) reduplication attested in Gothic, are
            they? And how is it (if it is) connected with the stem represented in
            Gothic falthan (cf. nhd. Falter : falten – maybe a later
            association?). The verb at least IS a reduplicative one (Past tense:
            faifalth).
          • Guenther Ramm
            Hails! I don’t insist on the scribal error hypothesis, but the graphical likeness of the Gothic letter for [th] and the Greek letter for [f] could speak in
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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              Hails!
              I don’t insist on the scribal error hypothesis, but the graphical likeness of the Gothic letter for [th] and the Greek letter for [f] could speak in its favor. We know that some earlier manuscripts have the S-letter close to the Greek one while the later manuscripts use the Latin S. Could there be a similar situation with the F? I mean some early variants of Gothic alphabet could have a Greek-like F and later when these were being rewritten by Ostrogothic scribes in Italy all the confusions were made. That this hypothetical proto-F would look almost like TH is no objection – compare the letters for U and P. Due to such a confusion of U and P by Jordanes we have Gapt instead of *Gaut in Getica 79.
              Then the question is why this confusion affected only initial fl- ?

              Ualarauans


              John Stewart <john.stewart@...-heidelberg.de> wrote: Hails Thiudans!

              I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed awkward to
              me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe Wulfila
              wrote the Gothic and when it was copied, someone misread it as <Þ> (TH-)?
              (John S.)

              > on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that, whatever
              > its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight, capable of
              > flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the poem, if we
              > take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
              > *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go. *THlugi
              > < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we cannot know
              > precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-, Koebler
              > seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).
              >




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            • thiudans
              Koebler s Gothic Dictionary can be seen here http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html He supports the PIE *pel- etymology. I think it was Voyles who may have
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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                Koebler's Gothic Dictionary can be seen here

                http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html


                He supports the PIE *pel- etymology. I think it was Voyles who may
                have suggested PIE *tel- > Go. thliuhan. I believe he does not place
                much weight on PIE in determining PGmc. forms.


                - In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hails!
                > I don�t insist on the scribal error hypothesis, but the graphical
                likeness of the Gothic letter for [th] and the Greek letter for [f]
                could speak in its favor. We know that some earlier manuscripts have
                the S-letter close to the Greek one while the later manuscripts use
                the Latin S. Could there be a similar situation with the F? I mean
                some early variants of Gothic alphabet could have a Greek-like F and
                later when these were being rewritten by Ostrogothic scribes in Italy
                all the confusions were made. That this hypothetical proto-F would
                look almost like TH is no objection � compare the letters for U and P.
                Due to such a confusion of U and P by Jordanes we have Gapt instead of
                *Gaut in Getica 79.
                > Then the question is why this confusion affected only initial fl- ?
                >
                > Ualarauans
                >
                >
                > John Stewart <john.stewart@...> wrote: Hails Thiudans!
                >
                > I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed
                awkward to
                > me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe
                Wulfila
                > wrote the Gothic and when it was copied, someone misread it as <�>
                (TH-)?
                > (John S.)
                >
                > > on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that, whatever
                > > its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight, capable of
                > > flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the poem, if we
                > > take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
                > > *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go. *THlugi
                > > < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we cannot know
                > > precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-, Koebler
                > > seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                email to .
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Send instant messages to your online friends
                http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • David Kiltz
                ... It seems rather typically Wulfilan to me. Cf. such forms as _thlauhs_ flight belonging to the same root as thliuhan. Also, e.g. _ga- thlaihan_ vs OE/OHG
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 26, 2006
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                  On 24.03.2006, at 09:13, John Stewart wrote:

                  > I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed
                  > awkward to
                  > me

                  It seems rather typically Wulfilan to me. Cf. such forms as _thlauhs_
                  'flight' belonging to the same root as thliuhan. Also, e.g. _ga-
                  thlaihan_ vs OE/OHG _flehan_, _flehon_ ...thlaqus 'tender, supple' is
                  another example if it belongs with PGM *_flakuz_ 'flat, NHG flach'.

                  So, PGM *_fl-_ > _thl-_ is pretty common in Wulfilan Gothic.

                  -David
                • llama_nom
                  D Alquen on the Gothic letter f: One s suspicion is roused in this case. A runic letter ousting a Greek runs counter to expectation. Latin F has been
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 8, 2006
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                    D'Alquen on the Gothic letter f: "One's suspicion is roused in this
                    case. A runic letter ousting a Greek runs counter to expectation.
                    Latin F has been suggested as the model (e.g. Luft 1898, 61ff.) or
                    runic under Latin influence (Mensel 1903, 463). The reason for the
                    change must have been confusion with Go. þ [i.e. the phi-like sign
                    used in the Codex Argenteus] and could have been introduced by
                    Wulfila himself." (D'Alquen 1974, p. 47, para. 2.4.31).

                    This view is criticised by Marchand on the grounds that the phi-like
                    Codex Argenteus form of Go. þ may (or as he puts it "must") be
                    itself an innovation on the original Gothic letter. Other forms
                    that occur include a letter rather like the phi-like one, but with
                    the left handle joined to the stem at both ends and the right handle
                    just a stump; a symbol like an ampersand; and Marchand's preferred
                    original, a kind of backwards c which slopes slightly to the right
                    with a little loop in the top. This is the form used by Wiljariþ;
                    it also appears in the Vienna-Salzburg Codex. He would derive it
                    from a Greek form of theta current in the 4th century. The Go. f
                    might still have been changed by post-Wulfilan scribes to avoid
                    confusion with their þ. (Marchand 1973, p. 35, para. 2.32.f; p. 20,
                    para. 1.14).

                    The difference of Go. f from Greek phi has, according to Marchand,
                    been used to argue that Go. f was labio-dental, in contrast to the
                    Greek bilabial phi; but more often the explanation given is the
                    desire to differentiate graphic forms. Marchand offers no
                    preferrence on the bilabial / labio-dental question, but d'Alquen
                    points to the name Dagalaiphus, as transcribed in Latin, as possibly
                    indicating a bilabial pronunciation, since Lat. ph was used to
                    transcribe bilabial Gk. phi.


                    Gmc. initial /fl/ appears in Biblical Gothic in some words as þl, in
                    others as fl (see Nordmeyer 1935 for etymologies). Four roots are
                    attested for each spelling: flahtons (1Tim 2,9), flautjan (1Cor
                    13,4), flauts (Gal 5,26), flodus (L 6,49), flokan (L 8,42). As
                    against: þlahsjan (2Cor 10,9), gaþlahsnan (L 1,29), gaþlaihan (Mk
                    10,16; 2Cor 2,7; 2Cor 5,20; 2Cor 7,6; Thess 2,11; 1Tim 5,1; 1Tim
                    5,8; 1Tim 6,2; 2Tim 3,2; Tit 1,9); þlaqus (Mk 13,28); þlauhs (Mk
                    13,18; þliuhan (Mk 10,23; L 3,7; J 10,5; 1Tim 6,11; 2Tim 2,22);
                    afþliuhan (J 10,13); gaþliuhan (Mt 8,33; Mk 5,14; Mk 14,50; Mk
                    14,52; Mk 16,8; L 8,34); unþaþliuhan (2Cor 11,33; Thess 5,3). No
                    root is attested in the Bible with both versions, but this may be
                    coincidence: compare the Rugian king's name Flaccitheus, as recorded
                    in the Life of Saint Severinus (d. 482) by Eugippius (d. after 533),
                    with Go. þlaqus `soft, ripe'.

                    It's been proposed that the assimilative change fl > þl was
                    conditioned by certain following velar consonants (Krause & Slocum
                    2006), h, and in one instance q, though not k. Even if that's so,
                    the rule isn't consistently applied: flahtom `plaits', dat.pl. The
                    inconsistency over velars, even in this small sample, makes such a
                    rule look very arbitrary; nevertheless it could represent a sound
                    change in progress, or an imperfectly completed sound change
                    according to the theory of lexical diffusion (Salmonds & Iverson
                    1993--which I haven't read unfortunately, just seen cited). Another
                    idea is that the fl spellings represent a different dialect to that
                    of the translator(s), and that they were introduced into the text by
                    later scribes (Nordmeyer 1935). Nordmeyer notes that the fl forms
                    are confined to Luke and the Epistles, precisely the areas where we
                    find most evidence of non-original features, such as confusion of
                    ei : e. But then Nordmeyer's comment that POTAMOS is normally
                    translated ahva and that flodus needed a gloss could also tie in the
                    observation that certain types of sound change begin with familiar
                    words and are slower to affect rarer words [
                    http://www.unm.edu/~jbybee/Lexical%20Diffusion.htm ], and thus
                    needn't necessarily imply a dialectal difference.

                    Given d'Alquen's Ostrogothic recension theory (see my recent post
                    summarising this), we can't be sure that the þl spellings are
                    Wulfilan while the fl spellings are an Ostrogothic innovation. It
                    could be that þl was an innovation that began in Ostrogothic but
                    didn't reach all vocabulary items; or began in Ostrogothic, was
                    never completed, and was then eroded partly or entirely by analogy
                    with the remaining fl-forms. If the þl-forms are from the original
                    translation, this would undermine the theory of an Ostrogothic
                    rewrite. Does anyone know of any other sources of evidence? Any
                    relevant East Germanic names recorded in Latin or Greek, besides
                    Flaccitheus?

                    PS. The same confusion as in Gapt for *Gauts may be seen in the
                    spelling Thraustila for Thrafstila.

                    Bibliography

                    d'Alquen, Richard JE (1974) Gothic AI and AU, Mouton, The Hague.
                    Marchand, James W (1973) The Sounds and Phonemes of Wulfila's
                    Gothic, Mouton, The Hague.
                    Nordmeyer, George (1935) `Gothic initial þl-', Language, Vol. 11,
                    No. 3. (Sep., 1935), pp. 216-219 [ http://links.jstor.org/sici?
                    sici=0097-8507%28193509%2911%3A3%3C216%3AGIP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T ].
                    Salmonds & Iverson (1993) 'Gothic fl-, þl- variation as lexical
                    diffusion', Diachronia 10, 87-96.





                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Koebler's Gothic Dictionary can be seen here
                    >
                    > http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html
                    >
                    >
                    > He supports the PIE *pel- etymology. I think it was Voyles who may
                    > have suggested PIE *tel- > Go. thliuhan. I believe he does not
                    place
                    > much weight on PIE in determining PGmc. forms.
                    >
                    >
                    > - In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hails!
                    > > I don�t insist on the scribal error hypothesis, but the
                    graphical
                    > likeness of the Gothic letter for [th] and the Greek letter for [f]
                    > could speak in its favor. We know that some earlier manuscripts
                    have
                    > the S-letter close to the Greek one while the later manuscripts use
                    > the Latin S. Could there be a similar situation with the F? I mean
                    > some early variants of Gothic alphabet could have a Greek-like F
                    and
                    > later when these were being rewritten by Ostrogothic scribes in
                    Italy
                    > all the confusions were made. That this hypothetical proto-F would
                    > look almost like TH is no objection � compare the letters for U
                    and P.
                    > Due to such a confusion of U and P by Jordanes we have Gapt
                    instead of
                    > *Gaut in Getica 79.
                    > > Then the question is why this confusion affected only initial
                    fl- ?
                    > >
                    > > Ualarauans
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > John Stewart <john.stewart@> wrote: Hails Thiudans!
                    > >
                    > > I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed
                    > awkward to
                    > > me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe
                    > Wulfila
                    > > wrote the Gothic and when it was copied, someone misread it as
                    <�>
                    > (TH-)?
                    > > (John S.)
                    > >
                    > > > on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that,
                    whatever
                    > > > its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight,
                    capable of
                    > > > flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the
                    poem, if we
                    > > > take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
                    > > > *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go.
                    *THlugi
                    > > > < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we
                    cannot know
                    > > > precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-,
                    Koebler
                    > > > seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).
                  • Guenther Ramm
                    First, thanks a lot for drawing attention to D Alquen and his idea of the Gothic digraphs. For me, the view on those “earlier” borrowings (where Greek /e/
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 11, 2006
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                      First, thanks a lot for drawing attention to D'Alquen and his idea of the Gothic digraphs. For me, the view on those “earlier” borrowings (where Greek /e/ and /o/ are “gothicised” into /i/ resp. /u/) as reflexes of phonetic peculiarities of the Wulfilan dialect (if I understood it correctly) was especially enlightening. I guess it would also help to explain why the loanwords of the Greek second declension with -os in Nom. Sg. so regularly go after the Gothic u-stems. Btw, is of any effect for the topic that old opinion that a good deal of these “narrow” spellings could be results of a pseudo-etymological interpretation? - that, e.g. -i- in Makidonja was seen as a stem vowel (popularly “dismembered” in Maki-donja), -i- in aggilus as a part of the suffix -il- etc.? Cf. the seemingly deliberate rendering of Greek bEthleem as bethlahaim, where the first epsilon > a (quasi a stem vowel of the first element in the compositum), and the second > ai (a diphthong after the Germanic
                      place-names on -haim). What this bethla- could mean then?
                      To the supposed confusion of the letters *faihu and *thiuth. Reading Jordanes long ago I noticed the name Safrac (Get. 134, one of Ostrogothic “primates”), mentioned also as Saphrax by Ammianus Marcellinus and Zosimus. The name itself is most probably of Alano-Iranian descent (as so many Getica names ending on -ac are). I am almost sure that I was not the first to make the following supposition, but evidently I had missed the proper literature. In short, I supposed that all the above-mentioned authors, successively or independently of each other, somehow took this name from a written Gothic source (maybe the same source where Gapt-Gaut came from), where it stood as *Sathrak(s) < Iranian *Xshathraka- “a powerful one” from Avestan xshathra- = Sanskrit kshatra- “power”, “strength” etc. If anyone knows whether this or some other etymology of the name has already been proposed I would greatly appreciate the reference. If this one is true, then here is another case of the
                      involuntary letter replacement caused by graphical likeness (of course if we accept that Gothic [f] could ever be written with a phi-like sign).
                      What concerns our fl-/thl-, so as I understood there are etymologies assuming both PIE pl- and PIE tl- for one and the same root, aren’t there? Rather typical situation for etymologists :) Apart from the graphical question I like most the idea that thl- be a later and limited (both temporally and territorially) development, and
                      > that the assimilative change fl > þl was
                      > conditioned by certain following velar consonants (Krause & Slocum
                      > 2006), h, and in one instance q, though not k.,
                      even though
                      > the rule isn't consistently applied: flahtom `plaits', dat.pl.

                      Ualarauans


                      llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:
                      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • llama_nom
                      ... of the Gothic digraphs. For me, the view on those earlier borrowings (where Greek /e/ and /o/ are gothicised into /i/ resp. /u/) as reflexes of
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 15, 2006
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                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > First, thanks a lot for drawing attention to D'Alquen and his idea
                        of the Gothic digraphs. For me, the view on those "earlier"
                        borrowings (where Greek /e/ and /o/ are "gothicised" into /i/
                        resp. /u/) as reflexes of phonetic peculiarities of the Wulfilan
                        dialect (if I understood it correctly) was especially enlightening.


                        Yeah, it's a very interesting book. The more traditional view is
                        that these anamalous spellings point to Pre-Gothic loans, i.e. from
                        before the time of Wulfila's supposed bible translation. But
                        d'Alquen's proposal that they're relics of the original Wulfilan
                        spelling helps to explain some otherwise puzzling aspects of the
                        writing system, especially why <ai> and <au> were used instead of
                        simple letters based on epsilon and omicron. (Incidentally,
                        regarding another part of his study, I wonder if anyone has made a
                        similar assessment of Gothic names in Greek sources and loanwords
                        into Slavonic.)


                        > I guess it would also help to explain why the loanwords of the
                        Greek second declension with -os in Nom. Sg. so regularly go after
                        the Gothic u-stems.


                        Yes, although the traditional explanations are maybe adequate; even
                        with phonemic /O/, this declension might offer the closest match in
                        sound with Greek -os nouns.


                        > Btw, is of any effect for the topic that old opinion that a good
                        deal of these "narrow" spellings could be results of a pseudo-
                        etymological interpretation? - that, e.g. -i- in Makidonja was seen
                        as a stem vowel (popularly "dismembered" in Maki-donja), -i- in
                        aggilus as a part of the suffix -il- etc.? Cf. the seemingly
                        deliberate rendering of Greek bEthleem as bethlahaim, where the
                        first epsilon > a (quasi a stem vowel of the first element in the
                        compositum), and the second > ai (a diphthong after the Germanic
                        place-names on -haim). What this bethla- could mean then?


                        I guess the <o> of Makidonja, if it represents [o:], could be due
                        either to the Greek stress or a secondary stress in Gothic, if that
                        syllable was pronounced like the second part of a native compound.
                        Maybe due to a loss of distinction in unstressed vowels, or a
                        raising of [a] > [E], but <e> is very common as a stem vowel in
                        Latin transcriptions of Gothic names, cf. Suniefridus =
                        Sunjaifriþas. I wonder what bearing that could have on the question
                        of when an how [E] was phonemicised. D'Alquen saw loss and
                        assimilation of postvocalic /h/ as an important stage in this
                        process, but another factor could be the
                        prepositions/prefixes 'faur', 'faura' and the prefix 'fair-'. If
                        breaking only happened under stress (as seems likely), do these
                        represent originally stressed or half stressed forms that have been
                        extended by analogy to unstressed positions? Did analogy extend to
                        pronunciation, or is it just orthographic?



                        > To the supposed confusion of the letters *faihu and *thiuth.
                        Reading Jordanes long ago I noticed the name Safrac (Get. 134, one
                        of Ostrogothic "primates"), mentioned also as Saphrax by Ammianus
                        Marcellinus and Zosimus. The name itself is most probably of Alano-
                        Iranian descent (as so many Getica names ending on -ac are). I am
                        almost sure that I was not the first to make the following
                        supposition, but evidently I had missed the proper literature. In
                        short, I supposed that all the above-mentioned authors, successively
                        or independently of each other, somehow took this name from a
                        written Gothic source (maybe the same source where Gapt-Gaut came
                        from), where it stood as *Sathrak(s) < Iranian *Xshathraka- "a
                        powerful one" from Avestan xshathra- = Sanskrit kshatra-
                        "power", "strength" etc. If anyone knows whether this or some other
                        etymology of the name has already been proposed I would greatly
                        appreciate the reference. If this one is true, then here is another
                        case of the


                        Interesting. I haven't seen that idea before, but then I'm not all
                        that widely read. Could the change have been motivated in this case
                        by folk-etymology involving the Gothic name element Sab(a)-?



                        > involuntary letter replacement caused by graphical likeness (of
                        course if we accept that Gothic [f] could ever be written with a phi-
                        like sign).
                        > What concerns our fl-/thl-, so as I understood there are
                        etymologies assuming both PIE pl- and PIE tl- for one and the same
                        root, aren't there? Rather typical situation for etymologists :)
                        Apart from the graphical question I like most the idea that thl- be
                        a later and limited (both temporally and territorially) development,
                        and
                        > > that the assimilative change fl > þl was
                        > > conditioned by certain following velar consonants (Krause &
                        Slocum
                        > > 2006), h, and in one instance q, though not k.,
                        > even though
                        > > the rule isn't consistently applied: flahtom `plaits', dat.pl.



                        Nordmeyer certainly explained them all as from PIE *pl. Unless
                        there are strong reasons for positing *tl, the general *pl
                        explanation seems simplest. Now, a question for the statisticians
                        among us: which is the bigger coincidence, that fl- spellings are
                        confined to Luke and the Epistles (supposedly the areas with the
                        least conservative orthography)--this was the distribution that
                        Nordmeyer thought most significant--or that the two roots with a non-
                        velar consonant (out of eight roots attested) should both be among
                        the fl- spellings.

                        VELAR: 4x þl-, 2x fl-
                        DENTAL: 0x þl-, 2x fl-

                        The Slocum / Krause hypothesis that requires a special rule for the
                        single instance of 'k' seems to me inelegant and arbitrary,
                        especially when we can see that 'h' might or might not trigger fl- >
                        þl-. Simpler to suppose that it might or might not happen with any
                        velar. But this begs the question of why. What qualities would a
                        velar consonant have that could cause such a change (let alone what
                        quality 'k' would have to make it have a different effect from 'q'
                        and 'h')? It can hardly be assimilation or dissimilation.

                        Could it be that an assimalative change fl- > þl- happened
                        (sporadically? dialectally?) with any sort of consonant after the
                        next vowel, except for a dental? That a dental should block the
                        change could be explained as a case of dissmilation. Note the
                        dental after the velar also in 'flahtom'. That would leave just the
                        one anomaly of 'faiflokun', rather than the two problems
                        of 'flahtom' and 'faiflokun'.

                        Finally, does the fact that no one root is attested with both
                        spellings suggest that maybe the sound change was not in progress at
                        the time of the scribes, but already fixed (allowing the possibility
                        of doublets), whether the difference is dialectal or otherwise? Or
                        is this a coincidence (too)?

                        LN
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