Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Help

Expand Messages
  • michalcigan
    Could someone help me? I have two questions, problems... 1/I search for the meaning, or ethymology of the names of Jormunrek s sons, especially Erpr. Any
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 23, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Could someone help me?
      I have two questions, problems...
      1/I search for the meaning, or ethymology of the names of Jormunrek's
      sons, especially Erpr. Any ideas?
      2/And secon one, from wikipedia I have an information, that old
      english Geates/jeates/- in Beowulf located in Scandinavia - are Goths
      /it should be a reminiscence on their original homeland befor "the
      exodus" southward from south scandinavia/.
      Can I Belive this idea?
    • Ingemar Nordgren
      ... Hi Michalcigan, It depends on what sense you give the name Goths. If you regard the Vistula Goths as a single tribe/people with no connection to
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 23, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "michalcigan" <michalcigan@...> wrote:

        > 2/And secon one, from wikipedia I have an information, that old
        > english Geates/jeates/- in Beowulf located in Scandinavia - are Goths
        > /it should be a reminiscence on their original homeland befor "the
        > exodus" southward from south scandinavia/.
        > Can I Belive this idea?


        Hi Michalcigan,

        It depends on what sense you give the name Goths. If you regard the
        Vistula Goths as a single tribe/people with no connection to
        neighbouring peoples/tribes the answer is no. If however you regard
        all peoples/tribes claiming ancestry from Gaut as Gothic peoples the
        answer must be yes. I have stated in my doctoral dissertation that the
        name is teophoric regardless if you use the local names of
        Gudones/Gotones, Goutai,Gutar, Gauter, Geatas, Gotnar or
        Jutar/Ýtar/Ýtas/Eudozes since they all have the meaning 'the
        outpoured, men'.Geatas could be either Gauter or Jutar. The Gothic
        ethnicity is in my view primarily religious and not nessecarily
        linguistic even if the Gothic language later is identified with the
        Continental Goths. It is still not known when Gothic/Eastgermanic
        became an own branch but in any case that must have happened before
        the Scandinavian dialects started to develope. Some claim a
        relationship between Eastgermanic and Northgermanic, other mean
        Northgermanic is part of Northwestgermanic and not related to
        Eastgermanic. In any case religion presumably is older than the
        different later languages. I know this is a wasps nest on this list
        and I do not intend to involve myself into a linguistic discussion
        that can go on for ever and for which I lack competence. I stick to
        religion as a safer card. I have elaborated on these things in my
        book, The Well Spring of the Goths, that is available at Amazon and
        other netshops, and it is quite nessecary to read that book to really
        understand what I say and why. (The English is, I am sorry to say, of
        neither fluent US or GB standard but rather mixed since I translated
        it myself, but in any case understandable).

        Best
        Ingemar
      • Michal Cigan
        Hallo to You, Ingemar, first, thanx a lot for Your answer. It s quite interesting... So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no lineal
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 24, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Hallo to You,
          Ingemar,
          first, thanx a lot for Your answer.
          It's quite interesting...

          So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no lineal connection between
          "gothic homeland" - at least I heard so but im not a specialist on this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there is a connection, than of what kind?

          What exactly do You mean by term "teophoric" - Gaut is some kind of mythical ancestor?

          Michal

          Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "michalcigan" <michalcigan@...> wrote:

          > 2/And secon one, from wikipedia I have an information, that old
          > english Geates/jeates/- in Beowulf located in Scandinavia - are Goths
          > /it should be a reminiscence on their original homeland befor "the
          > exodus" southward from south scandinavia/.
          > Can I Belive this idea?


          Hi Michalcigan,

          It depends on what sense you give the name Goths. If you regard the
          Vistula Goths as a single tribe/people with no connection to
          neighbouring peoples/tribes the answer is no. If however you regard
          all peoples/tribes claiming ancestry from Gaut as Gothic peoples the
          answer must be yes. I have stated in my doctoral dissertation that the
          name is teophoric regardless if you use the local names of
          Gudones/Gotones, Goutai,Gutar, Gauter, Geatas, Gotnar or
          Jutar/Ýtar/Ýtas/Eudozes since they all have the meaning 'the
          outpoured, men'.Geatas could be either Gauter or Jutar. The Gothic
          ethnicity is in my view primarily religious and not nessecarily
          linguistic even if the Gothic language later is identified with the
          Continental Goths. It is still not known when Gothic/Eastgermanic
          became an own branch but in any case that must have happened before
          the Scandinavian dialects started to develope. Some claim a
          relationship between Eastgermanic and Northgermanic, other mean
          Northgermanic is part of Northwestgermanic and not related to
          Eastgermanic. In any case religion presumably is older than the
          different later languages. I know this is a wasps nest on this list
          and I do not intend to involve myself into a linguistic discussion
          that can go on for ever and for which I lack competence. I stick to
          religion as a safer card. I have elaborated on these things in my
          book, The Well Spring of the Goths, that is available at Amazon and
          other netshops, and it is quite nessecary to read that book to really
          understand what I say and why. (The English is, I am sorry to say, of
          neither fluent US or GB standard but rather mixed since I translated
          it myself, but in any case understandable).

          Best
          Ingemar






          You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



          ---------------------------------
          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


          Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          ---------------------------------





          ---------------------------------
          Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Guenther Ramm
          Hi! I will try to answer both, but you should look in other replies cause I am not most competent here. 1. I am not sure Erpr is referred to as Jörmunreks son
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 24, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi!
            I will try to answer both, but you should look in other replies cause I am not most competent here.
            1. I am not sure Erpr is referred to as Jörmunreks son in any of the existing sources. In Guðrunarhvöt he is a son of Guðrún and king Jónakr. In Hamðismál you can meet two distinct persons called Erpr – Erpr Jónakrs sonr ok Guðrunar (together with Sörli and Hamðir) and Erpr Atla sonr (together with Eitill his brother). The latters were killed by Guðrún herself to make Atli suffer for the murder of her kin as it is said in Atlakviða (“Kallar-a þú síðan / til knéa þinna / Erp né Eitil / ölreifa tvᔠAk. 38) and Hamðismál (“Atla þóttisk þú stríða / at Erps morði / ok at Eitils aldrlagi” Hm. 8). If you mean them or those three brothers (Erpr, Sörli and Hamðir), who in Hamðismál rode out to kill Jörmunrekr and thus avenge their sister Svanhildr (“at hefna Svanhildar” Hm. 2), I can offer following ideas (sorry for eventual absence of proper references as I have no large library at hand in the moment):
            PG. *erpaz meant “brown”, swarthy”, “dark-haired” (of persons), cf. OE eorp; OHG erpf etc. In Old Norse jarpr (e > ja) was the common form. Erpr as a name seems to have been borrowed from the continent as well as the whole plot of the story, where this name was originally applied to one of the sons of Attila (ON Atli). Erpr and Eitill are most often supposed to be Germanic substitutes for actual names of Attila’s sons as recorded by Jordanes ([H]ernac and Ellac – Getica 266 resp. 262) and Priscus (’Ηρνάχ – Fragmenta 36). What these had meant to Huns or rather Alans (if Iranic as I heard) I don’t know (it would be very interesting to learn). But Erpr was definitely given the meaning “swarthy”, “dark-haired” with special reference to anthropological peculiarities of Huns as compared with contemporary Teutons. This can be seen from calling Erpr “swarthy boy” (“jarpskammr” Hm. 12) and “bastard” (“hornungr” Hm. 14) by his brethren before they slew him. Note that
            he was born “of another mother” (“inn sundrmæðri” Hm. 13), maybe she was thought to be of Hunnish origin.
            Sörli and Hamðir are also mentioned by Jordanes as Sarus and Ammius (Getica 129). These at least seem to be Germanic. G. Köbler (Köbler Gerhard. Gotisches Wörterbuch. – 2. Auflage, 1989 at http://www.koeblergerhard.de/) derives lat.-germ. Sarus from Gothic sarwa pl. “arms”, “war equipment”. If so, it would be *Sarws (?) in Gothic. Diminutive *Sarwila would regularly produce Sörli in ON.
            Ammius is supposed to be *Hamjis (ibidem). Somewhere else I saw *Hamathius (from non-attested *hama- “cloth”, “body” and thius “servant”) that would better correspond with ON Hamðir.

            2. OE Geatas (= ON Gautar) are NOT Goths though relative to them. Gautar were a tribe that did not move from Sweden. The names *Gauta- and *Guta- are certainly close cognate but still distinct (different stages of the second Ablaut class – is this the proper English terminology?)

            By the way, colleagues, did anyone try to reconstruct Gothic “liuth” of that sad story about Sarus and Ammius and their sister?

            Best regards
            Ualarauans


            michalcigan <michalcigan@...> wrote: Could someone help me?
            I have two questions, problems...
            1/I search for the meaning, or ethymology of the names of Jormunrek's
            sons, especially Erpr. Any ideas?
            2/And secon one, from wikipedia I have an information, that old
            english Geates/jeates/- in Beowulf located in Scandinavia - are Goths
            /it should be a reminiscence on their original homeland befor "the
            exodus" southward from south scandinavia/.
            Can I Belive this idea?








            You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



            ---------------------------------
            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


            Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            ---------------------------------




            Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ingemar Nordgren
            Hi Michal, ... lineal connection between ... this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there is a connection, than of what kind? There is
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 24, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Michal,

              > So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no
              lineal connection between
              > "gothic homeland" - at least I heard so but im not a specialist on
              this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there
              is a connection, than of what kind?

              There is a connection as far as I see. The wandering Vistula Goths
              might be a mixture of indigenous Wielbark people with roots from the
              Oxhöfde and other local cultures with adding of people from all over
              Scandinavia and Gotland. Whether the religious origin is from
              Scandinavia or if it is common is unclear but regarding the remaining
              geographical names and my analysis of the developement in Scandinavia
              from the last part of the bronze age and during the pre-Roman Iron Age
              this origin is probably Scandinavian. The Scandinavian immigrants are
              however seemingly a minority having imposed their belief by means of
              Gefolgschaft groups according to the model of Pritsak and his
              carismatic clans. This have taken place during a longer period from
              about 350 BC to around beginning of CE and the last addment is with
              the forming of the Gepids around 200 CE. Heather regards Wielbark as a
              not homogenous group archaeologically but giving the impression of a
              cultic league. The contacts between these peoples probably were upheld
              also during the Gothic wars and finds in Scandinavia suggest that
              Scandinavians took part in the wars and the finds increase after the
              defeat of the Huns when seemingly som groups returned up here. There
              is local tales of the 'Hunahär'-the Hunnic army or Hunnerheere. Anders
              Kaliff in his Gothic Connections also has shown intensive contacts
              between chieftains in Scandinavia and the Vistula area alredy during
              late Bronze Age. Hence the Geats are related to the Gautar or Jutar
              and so indirectly to the Goths, but they never took part of the Gothic
              wars or cooperated with the Continental Goths.

              >
              > What exactly do You mean by term "teophoric" - Gaut is some kind
              of mythical ancestor?

              Gaut is evidently an original creator god from whom both the peoples
              and also the royal families descend. All Gothic tribes/peoples have
              taken their name after the god-hence teophoric. Later he was combined
              with Óðinn to Óðinn-Gaut. It means those royal families of both the
              Goths, The Jutes and other AS royal families begin with a semi-god - a
              son of a human and a god. The Gothic kings were just regarded as
              heroes- i.e. semi-gods. Note that all people that claim ancestry from
              Gaut and all royal families who do that are either provenly come from
              Scandinavia or claim to do so. Hence Gaut was a Scandinavian
              predecessor to the later continental cult of Óðinn which took power in
              Scandinavia finally around 500 CE.

              I do not know where you live, but I can inform that there will be a
              symposion in Sweden in august this year where I am moderator. There
              the leading Scandinavian and North German researchers will lecture for
              three days about the topic 'Cult, Gold and Power' and these topics
              above will be treated among else. We have 21 lecturers and it will all
              be published later with English summaries in a book that I will edit.
              But till then I suggest you read my book, because the arguments I can
              give in this discussion are not sufficiently convincing without the
              hard background-stuff of details.

              Best
              Ingemar
            • Tore Gannholm
              Ingemar, Thank you. This is the best way I have seen this explained. It also fits very well in with our earlier discussions. I hope Dirk reads it also. Tore
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 24, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Ingemar,
                Thank you.
                This is the best way I have seen this explained. It also fits very
                well in with our earlier discussions. I hope Dirk reads it also.

                Tore

                On Mar 25, 2006, at 12:41 AM, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

                > Hi Michal,
                >
                >> So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no
                > lineal connection between
                >> "gothic homeland" - at least I heard so but im not a specialist on
                > this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there
                > is a connection, than of what kind?
                >
                > There is a connection as far as I see. The wandering Vistula Goths
                > might be a mixture of indigenous Wielbark people with roots from the
                > Oxhöfde and other local cultures with adding of people from all over
                > Scandinavia and Gotland. Whether the religious origin is from
                > Scandinavia or if it is common is unclear but regarding the remaining
                > geographical names and my analysis of the developement in Scandinavia
                > from the last part of the bronze age and during the pre-Roman Iron Age
                > this origin is probably Scandinavian. The Scandinavian immigrants are
                > however seemingly a minority having imposed their belief by means of
                > Gefolgschaft groups according to the model of Pritsak and his
                > carismatic clans. This have taken place during a longer period from
                > about 350 BC to around beginning of CE and the last addment is with
                > the forming of the Gepids around 200 CE. Heather regards Wielbark as a
                > not homogenous group archaeologically but giving the impression of a
                > cultic league. The contacts between these peoples probably were upheld
                > also during the Gothic wars and finds in Scandinavia suggest that
                > Scandinavians took part in the wars and the finds increase after the
                > defeat of the Huns when seemingly som groups returned up here. There
                > is local tales of the 'Hunahär'-the Hunnic army or Hunnerheere. Anders
                > Kaliff in his Gothic Connections also has shown intensive contacts
                > between chieftains in Scandinavia and the Vistula area alredy during
                > late Bronze Age. Hence the Geats are related to the Gautar or Jutar
                > and so indirectly to the Goths, but they never took part of the Gothic
                > wars or cooperated with the Continental Goths.
                >
                >>
                >> What exactly do You mean by term "teophoric" - Gaut is some kind
                > of mythical ancestor?
                >
                > Gaut is evidently an original creator god from whom both the peoples
                > and also the royal families descend. All Gothic tribes/peoples have
                > taken their name after the god-hence teophoric. Later he was combined
                > with Óðinn to Óðinn-Gaut. It means those royal families of both the
                > Goths, The Jutes and other AS royal families begin with a semi-god - a
                > son of a human and a god. The Gothic kings were just regarded as
                > heroes- i.e. semi-gods. Note that all people that claim ancestry from
                > Gaut and all royal families who do that are either provenly come from
                > Scandinavia or claim to do so. Hence Gaut was a Scandinavian
                > predecessor to the later continental cult of Óðinn which took power in
                > Scandinavia finally around 500 CE.
                >
                > I do not know where you live, but I can inform that there will be a
                > symposion in Sweden in august this year where I am moderator. There
                > the leading Scandinavian and North German researchers will lecture for
                > three days about the topic 'Cult, Gold and Power' and these topics
                > above will be treated among else. We have 21 lecturers and it will all
                > be published later with English summaries in a book that I will edit.
                > But till then I suggest you read my book, because the arguments I can
                > give in this discussion are not sufficiently convincing without the
                > hard background-stuff of details.
                >
                > Best
                > Ingemar
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • OSCAR HERRERA
                my rendition of the grail.........weihagragl.......ik gawigan thuts af stoth du stoth,ni ewa aflifnandan in stoth ain, ewa soknjandan, galeikaida knauts
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 26, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  my rendition of the grail.........weihagragl.......ik gawigan thuts af stoth du stoth,ni ewa aflifnandan in stoth ain, ewa soknjandan, galeikaida knauts gasoknjana, faur tho gragl swaswe luif, swe nehwa auk swaswe fairrapro,nehwajaba in siuna, auk ni ewa siunitha, ik gag ana jah ana, unte tho anda ist nehwa ina, jah ik mag hausjan aggilus wulthein haitadam, ik skal drigk fram tho stikl, skal wisa gabigein jah silds thai thaurba, faur in tho anda, tho stikl libain wilja haldan, jah libain wulthein ist, jah gakunnan sah, ik gasoknjan.......oscar

                  Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote: Ingemar,
                  Thank you.
                  This is the best way I have seen this explained. It also fits very
                  well in with our earlier discussions. I hope Dirk reads it also.

                  Tore

                  On Mar 25, 2006, at 12:41 AM, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

                  > Hi Michal,
                  >
                  >> So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no
                  > lineal connection between
                  >> "gothic homeland" - at least I heard so but im not a specialist on
                  > this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there
                  > is a connection, than of what kind?
                  >
                  > There is a connection as far as I see. The wandering Vistula Goths
                  > might be a mixture of indigenous Wielbark people with roots from the
                  > Oxhöfde and other local cultures with adding of people from all over
                  > Scandinavia and Gotland. Whether the religious origin is from
                  > Scandinavia or if it is common is unclear but regarding the remaining
                  > geographical names and my analysis of the developement in Scandinavia
                  > from the last part of the bronze age and during the pre-Roman Iron Age
                  > this origin is probably Scandinavian. The Scandinavian immigrants are
                  > however seemingly a minority having imposed their belief by means of
                  > Gefolgschaft groups according to the model of Pritsak and his
                  > carismatic clans. This have taken place during a longer period from
                  > about 350 BC to around beginning of CE and the last addment is with
                  > the forming of the Gepids around 200 CE. Heather regards Wielbark as a
                  > not homogenous group archaeologically but giving the impression of a
                  > cultic league. The contacts between these peoples probably were upheld
                  > also during the Gothic wars and finds in Scandinavia suggest that
                  > Scandinavians took part in the wars and the finds increase after the
                  > defeat of the Huns when seemingly som groups returned up here. There
                  > is local tales of the 'Hunahär'-the Hunnic army or Hunnerheere. Anders
                  > Kaliff in his Gothic Connections also has shown intensive contacts
                  > between chieftains in Scandinavia and the Vistula area alredy during
                  > late Bronze Age. Hence the Geats are related to the Gautar or Jutar
                  > and so indirectly to the Goths, but they never took part of the Gothic
                  > wars or cooperated with the Continental Goths.
                  >
                  >>
                  >> What exactly do You mean by term "teophoric" - Gaut is some kind
                  > of mythical ancestor?
                  >
                  > Gaut is evidently an original creator god from whom both the peoples
                  > and also the royal families descend. All Gothic tribes/peoples have
                  > taken their name after the god-hence teophoric. Later he was combined
                  > with Óðinn to Óðinn-Gaut. It means those royal families of both the
                  > Goths, The Jutes and other AS royal families begin with a semi-god - a
                  > son of a human and a god. The Gothic kings were just regarded as
                  > heroes- i.e. semi-gods. Note that all people that claim ancestry from
                  > Gaut and all royal families who do that are either provenly come from
                  > Scandinavia or claim to do so. Hence Gaut was a Scandinavian
                  > predecessor to the later continental cult of Óðinn which took power in
                  > Scandinavia finally around 500 CE.
                  >
                  > I do not know where you live, but I can inform that there will be a
                  > symposion in Sweden in august this year where I am moderator. There
                  > the leading Scandinavian and North German researchers will lecture for
                  > three days about the topic 'Cult, Gold and Power' and these topics
                  > above will be treated among else. We have 21 lecturers and it will all
                  > be published later with English summaries in a book that I will edit.
                  > But till then I suggest you read my book, because the arguments I can
                  > give in this discussion are not sufficiently convincing without the
                  > hard background-stuff of details.
                  >
                  > Best
                  > Ingemar
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                  Yahoo! Groups Links









                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michal Cigan
                  Zdravim Ta, My mistake, of course, i ment Jonakr as their father not Jormunrek... Anyway, I thing that etymology -especially in the case of Erpr - which You
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 27, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Zdravim Ta,

                    My mistake, of course, i ment Jonakr as their father not Jormunrek...
                    Anyway, I thing that etymology -especially in the case of Erpr - which You suggested seems to be reliable - at least from
                    my point of view. Im not a germanic linguist, but maybe little bit folklorist, and I thing that
                    "swarthy" in the case of Erpr reflects quite good his hypothetical structural-functional position in patterns of indoeuropean narrative tradition.
                    Thanx

                    Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote: Hi!
                    I will try to answer both, but you should look in other replies cause I am not most competent here.
                    1. I am not sure Erpr is referred to as Jörmunreks son in any of the existing sources. In Guðrunarhvöt he is a son of Guðrún and king Jónakr. In Hamðismál you can meet two distinct persons called Erpr – Erpr Jónakrs sonr ok Guðrunar (together with Sörli and Hamðir) and Erpr Atla sonr (together with Eitill his brother). The latters were killed by Guðrún herself to make Atli suffer for the murder of her kin as it is said in Atlakviða (“Kallar-a þú síðan / til knéa þinna / Erp né Eitil / ölreifa tvᔠAk. 38) and Hamðismál (“Atla þóttisk þú stríða / at Erps morði / ok at Eitils aldrlagi” Hm. 8). If you mean them or those three brothers (Erpr, Sörli and Hamðir), who in Hamðismál rode out to kill Jörmunrekr and thus avenge their sister Svanhildr (“at hefna Svanhildar” Hm. 2), I can offer following ideas (sorry for eventual absence of proper references as I have no large library at hand in the moment):
                    PG. *erpaz meant “brown”, swarthy”, “dark-haired” (of persons), cf. OE eorp; OHG erpf etc. In Old Norse jarpr (e > ja) was the common form. Erpr as a name seems to have been borrowed from the continent as well as the whole plot of the story, where this name was originally applied to one of the sons of Attila (ON Atli). Erpr and Eitill are most often supposed to be Germanic substitutes for actual names of Attila’s sons as recorded by Jordanes ([H]ernac and Ellac – Getica 266 resp. 262) and Priscus (’Ηρνάχ – Fragmenta 36). What these had meant to Huns or rather Alans (if Iranic as I heard) I don’t know (it would be very interesting to learn). But Erpr was definitely given the meaning “swarthy”, “dark-haired” with special reference to anthropological peculiarities of Huns as compared with contemporary Teutons. This can be seen from calling Erpr “swarthy boy” (“jarpskammr” Hm. 12) and “bastard” (“hornungr” Hm. 14) by his brethren before they
                    slew him. Note that
                    he was born “of another mother” (“inn sundrmæðri” Hm. 13), maybe she was thought to be of Hunnish origin.
                    Sörli and Hamðir are also mentioned by Jordanes as Sarus and Ammius (Getica 129). These at least seem to be Germanic. G. Köbler (Köbler Gerhard. Gotisches Wörterbuch. – 2. Auflage, 1989 at http://www.koeblergerhard.de/) derives lat.-germ. Sarus from Gothic sarwa pl. “arms”, “war equipment”. If so, it would be *Sarws (?) in Gothic. Diminutive *Sarwila would regularly produce Sörli in ON.
                    Ammius is supposed to be *Hamjis (ibidem). Somewhere else I saw *Hamathius (from non-attested *hama- “cloth”, “body” and thius “servant”) that would better correspond with ON Hamðir.

                    2. OE Geatas (= ON Gautar) are NOT Goths though relative to them. Gautar were a tribe that did not move from Sweden. The names *Gauta- and *Guta- are certainly close cognate but still distinct (different stages of the second Ablaut class – is this the proper English terminology?)

                    By the way, colleagues, did anyone try to reconstruct Gothic “liuth” of that sad story about Sarus and Ammius and their sister?

                    Best regards
                    Ualarauans


                    michalcigan <michalcigan@...> wrote: Could someone help me?
                    I have two questions, problems...
                    1/I search for the meaning, or ethymology of the names of Jormunrek's
                    sons, especially Erpr. Any ideas?
                    2/And secon one, from wikipedia I have an information, that old
                    english Geates/jeates/- in Beowulf located in Scandinavia - are Goths
                    /it should be a reminiscence on their original homeland befor "the
                    exodus" southward from south scandinavia/.
                    Can I Belive this idea?








                    You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



                    ---------------------------------
                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                    Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                    ---------------------------------




                    Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



                    ---------------------------------
                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                    Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                    ---------------------------------





                    ---------------------------------
                    Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michal Cigan
                    Hallo Ingemar Thanx for Your invitation , but I live in Slovakia / attention, not Slovenia :) / - so it could be little bit problem to join that action
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 28, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hallo Ingemar

                      Thanx for Your "invitation", but I live in Slovakia / attention, not Slovenia :) / - so it could be little bit problem to join that "action" for me - but I'm interested in that planned summarying book - please let me know, when it will be actual /and You wil remember :)/

                      Your "gothic concept" seems to me interesting - especially from one reason:
                      maybe this facts could be responsible for (or at least could have something to do with) the phenomenon which can be observed - more or less - across all the germanic mediaval tradition, especially in epic genre: I mean, that many of them - old english, scandinavian, german - bear something like "gothic stamp" - concerning some heroes, events, stories and so on.
                      Do You have, or anyone else, any additional idea, from what reason those traditions have such a "gothic stamp"?

                      Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote: Hi Michal,

                      > So, You mean - if I understud it correct - that there is no
                      lineal connection between
                      > "gothic homeland" - at least I heard so but im not a specialist on
                      this topic - in southern scandinavia and Vistula Goths? And if there
                      is a connection, than of what kind?

                      There is a connection as far as I see. The wandering Vistula Goths
                      might be a mixture of indigenous Wielbark people with roots from the
                      Oxhöfde and other local cultures with adding of people from all over
                      Scandinavia and Gotland. Whether the religious origin is from
                      Scandinavia or if it is common is unclear but regarding the remaining
                      geographical names and my analysis of the developement in Scandinavia
                      from the last part of the bronze age and during the pre-Roman Iron Age
                      this origin is probably Scandinavian. The Scandinavian immigrants are
                      however seemingly a minority having imposed their belief by means of
                      Gefolgschaft groups according to the model of Pritsak and his
                      carismatic clans. This have taken place during a longer period from
                      about 350 BC to around beginning of CE and the last addment is with
                      the forming of the Gepids around 200 CE. Heather regards Wielbark as a
                      not homogenous group archaeologically but giving the impression of a
                      cultic league. The contacts between these peoples probably were upheld
                      also during the Gothic wars and finds in Scandinavia suggest that
                      Scandinavians took part in the wars and the finds increase after the
                      defeat of the Huns when seemingly som groups returned up here. There
                      is local tales of the 'Hunahär'-the Hunnic army or Hunnerheere. Anders
                      Kaliff in his Gothic Connections also has shown intensive contacts
                      between chieftains in Scandinavia and the Vistula area alredy during
                      late Bronze Age. Hence the Geats are related to the Gautar or Jutar
                      and so indirectly to the Goths, but they never took part of the Gothic
                      wars or cooperated with the Continental Goths.

                      >
                      > What exactly do You mean by term "teophoric" - Gaut is some kind
                      of mythical ancestor?

                      Gaut is evidently an original creator god from whom both the peoples
                      and also the royal families descend. All Gothic tribes/peoples have
                      taken their name after the god-hence teophoric. Later he was combined
                      with Óðinn to Óðinn-Gaut. It means those royal families of both the
                      Goths, The Jutes and other AS royal families begin with a semi-god - a
                      son of a human and a god. The Gothic kings were just regarded as
                      heroes- i.e. semi-gods. Note that all people that claim ancestry from
                      Gaut and all royal families who do that are either provenly come from
                      Scandinavia or claim to do so. Hence Gaut was a Scandinavian
                      predecessor to the later continental cult of Óðinn which took power in
                      Scandinavia finally around 500 CE.

                      I do not know where you live, but I can inform that there will be a
                      symposion in Sweden in august this year where I am moderator. There
                      the leading Scandinavian and North German researchers will lecture for
                      three days about the topic 'Cult, Gold and Power' and these topics
                      above will be treated among else. We have 21 lecturers and it will all
                      be published later with English summaries in a book that I will edit.
                      But till then I suggest you read my book, because the arguments I can
                      give in this discussion are not sufficiently convincing without the
                      hard background-stuff of details.

                      Best
                      Ingemar









                      You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



                      ---------------------------------
                      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                      Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.

                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                      ---------------------------------





                      ---------------------------------
                      Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ingemar Nordgren
                      Hi Michal, ... not Slovenia :) / - so it could be little bit problem to join that action for me - but I m interested in that planned summarying book -
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 28, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Michal,

                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Michal Cigan <michalcigan@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hallo Ingemar
                        >
                        > Thanx for Your "invitation", but I live in Slovakia / attention,
                        not Slovenia :) / - so it could be little bit problem to join that
                        "action" for me - but I'm interested in that planned summarying book
                        - please let me know, when it will be actual /and You wil remember :)/

                        Rest assured the book will be announced on this list when it is ready.
                        I fully understand that a symposion in Scandinavian languages is
                        incomprehensible to you, even if Sweden is not that far away from
                        Slovakia.If, however, someone appears from abroad there will be
                        already written English summaries at hand but we must primarily
                        satisfy the paying local public. Even the Germans lecture in
                        Scandinavian languages.

                        >
                        > Your "gothic concept" seems to me interesting - especially from
                        one reason:
                        > maybe this facts could be responsible for (or at least could have
                        something to do with) the phenomenon which can be observed - more or
                        less - across all the germanic mediaval tradition, especially in epic
                        genre: I mean, that many of them - old english, scandinavian, german
                        - bear something like "gothic stamp" - concerning some heroes,
                        events, stories and so on.
                        > Do You have, or anyone else, any additional idea, from what reason
                        those traditions have such a "gothic stamp"?

                        The normal explanation is that the Gothic deeds were that great that
                        they were remembered by all Germanic peoples and so were the Huns that
                        nominally ruled for a period all the way up to the Baltic shore- if we
                        beleive the Getica of course. The problem however is that most of this
                        knowledge is transferred from the Icelandic literature of the 12th c.
                        and later and hence it is hard to say really what remained of lore on
                        the continent before that. There are the stories of Didrik of Bern of
                        course, and the statue of Teoderik that was moved from Ravenna to
                        Aachen is referred to on the Rök-stone in Sweden in the Viking period.
                        He was known as Didrik of Bern after his death. Most continental
                        written lore however is pure medieval as far as I recall. Hence I dare
                        not say too much in this respect but you might indeed have a clue with
                        your suggestion. Most of the knowledge of lore anyway was saved up
                        North and reexported it seems. If I am wrong, which of course is
                        possible, I will quite sure be corrected by an expert on lore.

                        Best greetings
                        Ingemar
                      • Tim Caldwell
                        ... have ... or ... epic ... german ... reason ... that ... that ... if we ... this ... c. ... on ... of ... period. ... dare ... with ... Hi Ingemar and
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 28, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@...>
                          wrote:

                          > > Your "gothic concept" seems to me interesting - especially from
                          > one reason:
                          > > maybe this facts could be responsible for (or at least could
                          have
                          > something to do with) the phenomenon which can be observed - more
                          or
                          > less - across all the germanic mediaval tradition, especially in
                          epic
                          > genre: I mean, that many of them - old english, scandinavian,
                          german
                          > - bear something like "gothic stamp" - concerning some heroes,
                          > events, stories and so on.
                          > > Do You have, or anyone else, any additional idea, from what
                          reason
                          > those traditions have such a "gothic stamp"?
                          >
                          > The normal explanation is that the Gothic deeds were that great
                          that
                          > they were remembered by all Germanic peoples and so were the Huns
                          that
                          > nominally ruled for a period all the way up to the Baltic shore-
                          if we
                          > beleive the Getica of course. The problem however is that most of
                          this
                          > knowledge is transferred from the Icelandic literature of the 12th
                          c.
                          > and later and hence it is hard to say really what remained of lore
                          on
                          > the continent before that. There are the stories of Didrik of Bern
                          of
                          > course, and the statue of Teoderik that was moved from Ravenna to
                          > Aachen is referred to on the Rök-stone in Sweden in the Viking
                          period.
                          > He was known as Didrik of Bern after his death. Most continental
                          > written lore however is pure medieval as far as I recall. Hence I
                          dare
                          > not say too much in this respect but you might indeed have a clue
                          with
                          > your suggestion. Most of the knowledge of lore anyway was saved up
                          > North and reexported it seems. If I am wrong, which of course is
                          > possible, I will quite sure be corrected by an expert on lore.
                          >
                          > Best greetings
                          > Ingemar
                          >



                          Hi Ingemar and Michal,

                          I think this question about the "Gothic stamp" is very interesting-
                          hadn't really thought about it before. Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian
                          sources seem quite familiar with Goths like Ermanaric who to my
                          knowledge weren't particularly significant outside of Gothic
                          territory. So maybe there's more to it than just the Goths' great
                          deeds.

                          I'm no "expert on lore", but I thought I'd throw in another theory.
                          Tales like these tended to flow from people to people in the form of
                          alliterative songs/poems recited by professional gleemen, who
                          travelled the Germanic world learning, composing and reciting their
                          songs. If the Gothic chieftains prized these poets even more than
                          other Germanic peoples, and rewarded visiting poets particularly
                          generously, the poets would be particularly attracted to Gothic
                          lands, and learn a disproportionate amount of Gothic material.

                          The Anglo-Saxon poem Widsið might support this idea quite well. The
                          poet who composed it, who says he hailed from the Myrging people of
                          Angeln, mentions his visit to the Gothic king Eormanric right at the
                          start of the poem, and later says:

                          "And I was with Eormanric for quite a while,
                          where the king of the Goths was graciously kind to me.
                          He, the ruler of the city-dwellers, gave me a collar
                          in which there was six hundred coins' worth
                          of pure gold, counted by shillings."

                          This generosity towards poets seems particularly significant given
                          that the poet had already described Eormanric as an oath-breaker;
                          and Anglo-Saxon tradition remembers Eormanric as a particularly
                          cruel man who in some ways represented the antithesis of the
                          Germanic kingly ideal. The poet also says:

                          "From there I travelled through the Gothic homeland --
                          I always sought out the best companions --
                          that was Eormanric's household guard!"

                          To a traveling poet, the best hosts will be the ones who are most
                          appreciative of their work, and the most open-handed!

                          It was primarily these minstrels who were responsible for recording
                          Germanic tribal "history", and their activities would be a decisive
                          factor in controling what information and news was disseminated and
                          remembered, and what was not. Whatever the explanation for
                          the "Gothic stamp" is, it's quite possible that the travelling
                          minstrels had an important part to play.

                          Cheers,
                          Tim
                        • Ingemar Nordgren
                          Hi Tim, Long time no see on this list. I think you have a point indeed since of course the minstrels were the persons spreading those poems and everyone making
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 29, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Tim,

                            Long time no see on this list. I think you have a point indeed since
                            of course the minstrels were the persons spreading those poems and
                            everyone making his own adding to the story or own variant to suit the
                            lord he entertained. The main reason I think that so much had been
                            preserved on Iceland was the fact that most, not to say all, of the
                            leading courtminstrels at all the Scandinavian courts came from a very
                            few and selective Icelandic families who claimed just a background
                            from what the Icelanders called Eastscandinavia ,i.e. Sweden and
                            Denmark, and also had a fertility cult background from Frey and Freya
                            which was not common on Iceland. The mother was leading in those
                            families meaning the children took name after her - a matrilinear
                            tradition from the fertilitycult - and she used to be the local
                            frejadis- pristess of Freya - and the farm type they possessed was
                            called Sauerbær-farms implying that they used animal fertilizer-dunge-
                            from breeding of pigs in farming. The families stuck strong to their
                            origin and preserved and told stories from the time before landnam for
                            their children. In such way the deeds of their ancestors were never
                            totally forgotten and those traditions hence originally came from
                            Scandinavia.

                            Best wishes
                            Ingemar



                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Caldwell" <vikingtimbo650@...>
                            wrote:

                            > I'm no "expert on lore", but I thought I'd throw in another theory.
                            > Tales like these tended to flow from people to people in the form of
                            > alliterative songs/poems recited by professional gleemen, who
                            > travelled the Germanic world learning, composing and reciting their
                            > songs. If the Gothic chieftains prized these poets even more than
                            > other Germanic peoples, and rewarded visiting poets particularly
                            > generously, the poets would be particularly attracted to Gothic
                            > lands, and learn a disproportionate amount of Gothic material.
                            >
                            > The Anglo-Saxon poem Widsið might support this idea quite well. The
                            > poet who composed it, who says he hailed from the Myrging people of
                            > Angeln, mentions his visit to the Gothic king Eormanric right at the
                            > start of the poem, and later says:
                            >
                            > "And I was with Eormanric for quite a while,
                            > where the king of the Goths was graciously kind to me.
                            > He, the ruler of the city-dwellers, gave me a collar
                            > in which there was six hundred coins' worth
                            > of pure gold, counted by shillings."
                            >
                            > This generosity towards poets seems particularly significant given
                            > that the poet had already described Eormanric as an oath-breaker;
                            > and Anglo-Saxon tradition remembers Eormanric as a particularly
                            > cruel man who in some ways represented the antithesis of the
                            > Germanic kingly ideal. The poet also says:
                            >
                            > "From there I travelled through the Gothic homeland --
                            > I always sought out the best companions --
                            > that was Eormanric's household guard!"
                            >
                            > To a traveling poet, the best hosts will be the ones who are most
                            > appreciative of their work, and the most open-handed!
                            >
                            > It was primarily these minstrels who were responsible for recording
                            > Germanic tribal "history", and their activities would be a decisive
                            > factor in controling what information and news was disseminated and
                            > remembered, and what was not. Whatever the explanation for
                            > the "Gothic stamp" is, it's quite possible that the travelling
                            > minstrels had an important part to play.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > Tim
                            >
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.