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Re: [gothic-l] Poety to translate?

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  • OSCAR HERRERA
    what are they....oscar Michael Adams wrote: If anyone is game, I have some small simple poems that might be easy to translate into Gothic?
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 18, 2006
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      what are they....oscar

      Michael Adams <abrigon@...> wrote: If anyone is game, I have some small simple poems that might be easy to translate into Gothic?

      Mike


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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    • Michael Adams
      I am learning to ask first, so I do not waste peoples bandwidth to much.. Here goes: (two or more) BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 19, 2006
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        I am learning to ask first, so I do not waste peoples bandwidth
        to much..

        Here goes: (two or more)

        BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
        ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
        you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
        currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
        hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
        held but never let free.

        THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
        one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
        for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
        sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
        and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
        I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
        shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
        sweet, and to know this, I quest.

        VASHTI OF THE FLAME RED TRESSES: Oh my dearest lady mine, for
        your passing has emptied my heart, but the memories of you will
        be with me forever. The joy we felt in our youth, the times we
        spent in our middle years. The things we did here, there and
        all. Friends we made, times we spent, even when angry we did it
        in love. How the feeling I do feel at your passing, for you my
        lady of hair so red was me, and I you, a half has gone away and
        left me with feelings of what now, not to replace but the
        feeling of what now? Who can I turn to when I need love,
        carrying, a gentle hand a soft caress, to be told I was wrong
        and the love to show me gently. To be there for me, and I for
        you. Bye my dear lady of flaming hair that lighted up the
        darkness of my life, for before you there was darkness and now
        what? Farewell my dear until that day with Gods/fates grace I
        can join you once again, to walk hand in hand, arm in arm,
        carress to carress, feel to feel and knowing we will be together
        always..

        Mike Adams
      • OSCAR HERRERA
        my version for butterflies are free---- ah wulthein malo, swaswe tho windo ju reidan,fahana ju kunn ju ist,auk in sah allata ik tawei slaha ist ju jah haldan
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 19, 2006
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          my version for butterflies are free---- ah wulthein malo, swaswe tho windo ju reidan,fahana ju kunn ju ist,auk in sah allata ik tawei slaha ist ju jah haldan ju frahunthans, malaim sind fries, ufkunn tho runs fram wind,du fliug fairrapro,ni ewa du wisa hildun af diwaim handaim,faur innana tho haldjandan tho ubil waurthano ist, faur wha sind drauman hildun,auk ni ewa aflets fries...oscar

          Michael Adams <abrigon@...> wrote: I am learning to ask first, so I do not waste peoples bandwidth
          to much..

          Here goes: (two or more)

          BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
          ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
          you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
          currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
          hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
          held but never let free.

          THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
          one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
          for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
          sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
          and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
          I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
          shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
          sweet, and to know this, I quest.

          VASHTI OF THE FLAME RED TRESSES: Oh my dearest lady mine, for
          your passing has emptied my heart, but the memories of you will
          be with me forever. The joy we felt in our youth, the times we
          spent in our middle years. The things we did here, there and
          all. Friends we made, times we spent, even when angry we did it
          in love. How the feeling I do feel at your passing, for you my
          lady of hair so red was me, and I you, a half has gone away and
          left me with feelings of what now, not to replace but the
          feeling of what now? Who can I turn to when I need love,
          carrying, a gentle hand a soft caress, to be told I was wrong
          and the love to show me gently. To be there for me, and I for
          you. Bye my dear lady of flaming hair that lighted up the
          darkness of my life, for before you there was darkness and now
          what? Farewell my dear until that day with Gods/fates grace I
          can join you once again, to walk hand in hand, arm in arm,
          carress to carress, feel to feel and knowing we will be together
          always..

          Mike Adams






          You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
          Yahoo! Groups Links









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • thiudans
          Koebler: Schmetterling: germ. *fifaldæ-, *fifaldæn, *fifaldræ-, *fifaldræn, germ., sw. F. (n): nhd. Falter, Schmetterling what appears as æ in this
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 20, 2006
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            Koebler: "Schmetterling: germ. *fifaldæ-, *fifaldæn, *fifaldræ-,
            *fifaldræn, germ., sw. F. (n): nhd. Falter, Schmetterling "

            what appears as "æ" in this quotation above is supposed to be long o
            (=ô).
            A gothic version might be "fifaldo" or "fifaldro"

            There are some grammatical errors. To begin, you would be 'thu', not
            ju. Also, the verbs should coordinate with the subject.

            Incidentally, it might be a good idea for those asking for
            translations to attempt one first. The attempt as well as the ensuing
            corrections and discussions would be very helpful for improving their
            own understanding of the language.

            Cheers,
            Thiudans



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@...> wrote:
            >
            > my version for butterflies are free---- ah wulthein malo, swaswe tho
            windo ju reidan,fahana ju kunn ju ist,auk in sah allata ik tawei slaha
            ist ju jah haldan ju frahunthans, malaim sind fries, ufkunn tho runs
            fram wind,du fliug fairrapro,ni ewa du wisa hildun af diwaim
            handaim,faur innana tho haldjandan tho ubil waurthano ist, faur wha
            sind drauman hildun,auk ni ewa aflets fries...oscar
            >
            > Michael Adams <abrigon@...> wrote: I am learning to ask first, so I
            do not waste peoples bandwidth
            > to much..
            >
            > Here goes: (two or more)
            >
            > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
            > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
            > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
            > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
            > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
            > held but never let free.
          • Guenther Ramm
            Hails, *Garazdans! Would you mind another translation attempt? Not always a word-for-word one, of cause, but instead I tried to “reconstruct” here and
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 20, 2006
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              Hails, *Garazdans!
              Would you mind another translation attempt? Not always a word-for-word one, of cause, but instead I tried to “reconstruct” here and there some of alliterative rhyme. All those clumsy “neologisms” are mine (just slapdash invented and without any claim to get into the waurdahuzd).
              By the way, I would be very thankful for every hint about what Gothic “butterfly” or rather “Grail” be like.

              BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
              ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
              you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
              currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
              hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
              held but never let free.


              O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis
              Ibai sa fahands thuk frathjan duginnith
              Hva maht ist haldis nibai hafta thuk fastan
              Frijos sind *fliugons, thozei fairrathro brahtedun
              Windos thai waiandans fram waihstam this midjungardis
              Ni du fragiban thos gumane handum
              Wai thamma wiljandin winda gatamjan
              Draum faurdammjan in daubithos hairtins

              Looking forward a scornful sneer of connoisseurs

              Ualarauans

              Michael Adams <abrigon@...> wrote: I am learning to ask first, so I do not waste peoples bandwidth
              to much..

              Here goes: (two or more)

              BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
              ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
              you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
              currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
              hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
              held but never let free.

              THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
              one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
              for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
              sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
              and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
              I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
              shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
              sweet, and to know this, I quest.

              VASHTI OF THE FLAME RED TRESSES: Oh my dearest lady mine, for
              your passing has emptied my heart, but the memories of you will
              be with me forever. The joy we felt in our youth, the times we
              spent in our middle years. The things we did here, there and
              all. Friends we made, times we spent, even when angry we did it
              in love. How the feeling I do feel at your passing, for you my
              lady of hair so red was me, and I you, a half has gone away and
              left me with feelings of what now, not to replace but the
              feeling of what now? Who can I turn to when I need love,
              carrying, a gentle hand a soft caress, to be told I was wrong
              and the love to show me gently. To be there for me, and I for
              you. Bye my dear lady of flaming hair that lighted up the
              darkness of my life, for before you there was darkness and now
              what? Farewell my dear until that day with Gods/fates grace I
              can join you once again, to walk hand in hand, arm in arm,
              carress to carress, feel to feel and knowing we will be together
              always..

              Mike Adams






              You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



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            • thiudans
              ... Hails! Nice translation & alliteration! No grammar comments now. I like flower-fly, nice invention. The first line has many syllables so I will offer a
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 22, 2006
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                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:

                Hails!

                Nice translation & alliteration!
                No grammar comments now.
                I like flower-fly, nice invention.
                The first line has many syllables so I will offer a shorter one for
                possibility of longer notes:

                > O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis

                O *fifaldo waliso, (hwaiwa) theinamma winda-staigon galeiko

                "how like that wind-road (you ride)". I thought riding is implicit in
                "road" perhaps.

                If Grail shall be a borrowing = Gradéls-. Else, the attested word
                Stikls will do fine.



                cheers,
                The Moderator






                > Hails, *Garazdans!
                > Would you mind another translation attempt? Not always a
                word-for-word one, of cause, but instead I tried to "reconstruct" here
                and there some of alliterative rhyme. All those clumsy "neologisms"
                are mine (just slapdash invented and without any claim to get into the
                waurdahuzd).
                > By the way, I would be very thankful for every hint about what
                Gothic "butterfly" or rather "Grail" be like.
                >
                > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
                > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
                > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
                > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
                > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
                > held but never let free.
                >
                >
                > O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis
                > Ibai sa fahands thuk frathjan duginnith
                > Hva maht ist haldis nibai hafta thuk fastan
                > Frijos sind *fliugons, thozei fairrathro brahtedun
                > Windos thai waiandans fram waihstam this midjungardis
                > Ni du fragiban thos gumane handum
                > Wai thamma wiljandin winda gatamjan
                > Draum faurdammjan in daubithos hairtins
                >
                > Looking forward a scornful sneer of connoisseurs
                >
                > Ualarauans
                >
                > Michael Adams <abrigon@...> wrote: I am learning to ask first, so I
                do not waste peoples bandwidth
                > to much..
                >
                > Here goes: (two or more)
                >
                > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
                > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
                > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
                > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
                > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
                > held but never let free.
                >
                > THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
                > one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
                > for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
                > sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
                > and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
                > I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
                > shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
                > sweet, and to know this, I quest.
                >
                > VASHTI OF THE FLAME RED TRESSES: Oh my dearest lady mine, for
                > your passing has emptied my heart, but the memories of you will
                > be with me forever. The joy we felt in our youth, the times we
                > spent in our middle years. The things we did here, there and
                > all. Friends we made, times we spent, even when angry we did it
                > in love. How the feeling I do feel at your passing, for you my
                > lady of hair so red was me, and I you, a half has gone away and
                > left me with feelings of what now, not to replace but the
                > feeling of what now? Who can I turn to when I need love,
                > carrying, a gentle hand a soft caress, to be told I was wrong
                > and the love to show me gently. To be there for me, and I for
                > you. Bye my dear lady of flaming hair that lighted up the
                > darkness of my life, for before you there was darkness and now
                > what? Farewell my dear until that day with Gods/fates grace I
                > can join you once again, to walk hand in hand, arm in arm,
                > carress to carress, feel to feel and knowing we will be together
                > always..
                >
                > Mike Adams
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                >
                >
                >
                > SPONSORED LINKS
                > Dvd region free All regions dvd player
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                >
                > Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Send instant messages to your online friends
                http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Guenther Ramm
                Golja Thuk, Thiudan! Thanks for your reply. *Fifald(r)o is great! Talking about this, is the first syllable a reduplication? If so, the spelling should be
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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                  Golja Thuk, Thiudan!

                  Thanks for your reply. *Fifald(r)o is great! Talking about this, is the first syllable a reduplication? If so, the spelling should be *faifaldro (with ai [e]) perhaps. But as far as I know (and that’s not a long distance) there are no nouns with a (vivid) reduplication attested in Gothic, are they? And how is it (if it is) connected with the stem represented in Gothic falthan (cf. nhd. Falter : falten – maybe a later association?). The verb at least IS a reduplicative one (Past tense: faifalth).
                  About the “Grail” it might be of some interest to speculate.
                  If we postulate a loanword from MLatin, then forms like *gradels, *gradaleis or whatever more would do. But if trying to “find” a Gothic pendant the foremost question that arises is what the Grail actually was (is) – a cup, a stone, a gem etc. Here we are threatened to get lost in a rather off-topic discussion that traces down to the Middle Age, moreover this vagueness seems to be an integral part of the legend.
                  Let us proceed from the offered text © Michael Adams where it is a cup. Then stikls is the first that comes to the mind. Checking up its attestations in Ulfilan codices we come across both sacral and profane usages (cf. John 18:11 “stikl thanei gaf mis atta, niu drigkau thana?” and esp. Cor. I. 10:16 ff. “stikls thiuthiqissais thanei gaweiham, niu gamainduths blothis fraujins ist?” versus Mk. 7:4 “daupeinins stikle jah aurkje jah katile jah ligre” et sim.). I guess, to refer more precisely to the denotate we could try and “find” some composita with -stikls as the second element, e. g.:
                  *weihastikls “the holy cup”,
                  *xristustikls “Christ’s cup”, or even
                  *blothastikls “blood cup” though the latter sounds somewhat “vampiric”, doesn’t it? Cf. however Cor. I. 11:25 “sa stikls so niujo triggwa ist in meinamma blotha“ > *triggwastikls?
                  Could we then draw hence some parallels to Pre-Christian items attested in other Germanic areas, e. g. ON. (Eyrbyggja saga) hlautbolli “cup of sacrificial blood used in rituals” etc. and thus make our reconstruction more “historically verifiable”?

                  Now let me offer you my attempt to translate the whole verse (I’m afraid I again digressed too far from the original)

                  THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
                  one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
                  for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
                  sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
                  and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
                  I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
                  shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
                  sweet, and to know this, I quest.

                  STIKLIS SOKNS
                  Ungastoths hvarbo [ik] bi hveilain ni saurgands
                  Sinteino sokjands stilk thana weihan
                  *Laiwin galeiks saei laisteith tho stairnon
                  Merjandein *mariwig faura maurginis uhtwon
                  – Swiknana stikl ni bisauleith manna
                  Afguths jah unwairths, arwjo skal sokjan –
                  Framis nu farja bi fulginai mundrein
                  Und thana andi, than aggiljus haitand mik
                  Skaunjaim stibnom. Stikl than andnima
                  Dragk thata *diurjo drigka us thamma
                  Junda tho aiweinon aigi sa wairtha
                  Libains galauba – laun this sokjandins


                  Some remarks

                  *laiwin is Dat. Sg. from *laiwa M. -an “boat”, “small ship” – a hypothetical Finnish borrowing (Fin. laiva, Est. laev “idem”) into Gothic when crossing the Baltic Sea. In fact it’s highly improbable that Goths being evidently a sea-shore nation experienced in seafaring already before the migration started would adopt marine terminology from elsewhere. Here it’s just for the sake of rhyme.
                  To compare the seeker with a ship that follows its way through the dark of the night guided by the Pole Star (here “so stairno”) would seem to fit the supposed “language consciousness” of Viking Goths better than the “Knight on a Quest” motive which is rather medieval. All the above-said can easily be nonsense since I know too little about the subject.

                  *mariwigs “sea-way” (for mari- as the first element cf. mari-saiws).
                  “merjan wig” for “to show the way” sounds somewhat alien. A variant is “Mundondein mans sis faura maurginis uhtwon”, i.e. “that (sc. the Star) looks down upon humans before the day is breaking” (problems with word-order, I see).

                  *diureis adj. -ja “precious” (= ME dear)

                  Excuse my limited vocabulary, up to the nearest time all I disposed of was a brief glossary in W. Braune’s Gotische Grammatik (13. Auflage. – Halle/Saale: Max Niemeyer Verlag, 1952). Now looking into Streitberg’s (best thanks to Project Wulfila) I tell to myself “And you thought you know the language!”

                  Craving for your opinions and comments
                  Ualarauans

                  P. S. By the way, I heard there were authors that assumed a closer bond between actual Visigoths and the Grail legends. Since I did not read the books I can not judge if this idea is scientifically grounded or is it just a fancy of historical fiction writers.


                  thiudans <thiudans@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:

                  Hails!

                  Nice translation & alliteration!
                  No grammar comments now.
                  I like flower-fly, nice invention.
                  The first line has many syllables so I will offer a shorter one for
                  possibility of longer notes:

                  > O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis

                  O *fifaldo waliso, (hwaiwa) theinamma winda-staigon galeiko

                  "how like that wind-road (you ride)". I thought riding is implicit in
                  "road" perhaps.

                  If Grail shall be a borrowing = Gradéls-. Else, the attested word
                  Stikls will do fine.



                  cheers,
                  The Moderator






                  > Hails, *Garazdans!
                  > Would you mind another translation attempt? Not always a
                  word-for-word one, of cause, but instead I tried to "reconstruct" here
                  and there some of alliterative rhyme. All those clumsy "neologisms"
                  are mine (just slapdash invented and without any claim to get into the
                  waurdahuzd).
                  > By the way, I would be very thankful for every hint about what
                  Gothic "butterfly" or rather "Grail" be like.
                  >
                  > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
                  > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
                  > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
                  > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
                  > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
                  > held but never let free.
                  >
                  >
                  > O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis
                  > Ibai sa fahands thuk frathjan duginnith
                  > Hva maht ist haldis nibai hafta thuk fastan
                  > Frijos sind *fliugons, thozei fairrathro brahtedun
                  > Windos thai waiandans fram waihstam this midjungardis
                  > Ni du fragiban thos gumane handum
                  > Wai thamma wiljandin winda gatamjan
                  > Draum faurdammjan in daubithos hairtins
                  >
                  > Looking forward a scornful sneer of connoisseurs
                  >
                  > Ualarauans
                  >
                  > Michael Adams <abrigon@...> wrote: I am learning to ask first, so I
                  do not waste peoples bandwidth
                  > to much..
                  >
                  > Here goes: (two or more)
                  >
                  > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
                  > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
                  > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
                  > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
                  > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
                  > held but never let free.
                  >
                  > THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
                  > one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
                  > for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
                  > sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
                  > and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
                  > I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
                  > shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
                  > sweet, and to know this, I quest.
                  >
                  > VASHTI OF THE FLAME RED TRESSES: Oh my dearest lady mine, for
                  > your passing has emptied my heart, but the memories of you will
                  > be with me forever. The joy we felt in our youth, the times we
                  > spent in our middle years. The things we did here, there and
                  > all. Friends we made, times we spent, even when angry we did it
                  > in love. How the feeling I do feel at your passing, for you my
                  > lady of hair so red was me, and I you, a half has gone away and
                  > left me with feelings of what now, not to replace but the
                  > feeling of what now? Who can I turn to when I need love,
                  > carrying, a gentle hand a soft caress, to be told I was wrong
                  > and the love to show me gently. To be there for me, and I for
                  > you. Bye my dear lady of flaming hair that lighted up the
                  > darkness of my life, for before you there was darkness and now
                  > what? Farewell my dear until that day with Gods/fates grace I
                  > can join you once again, to walk hand in hand, arm in arm,
                  > carress to carress, feel to feel and knowing we will be together
                  > always..
                  >
                  > Mike Adams
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • thiudans
                  Hái Guenther, Great job on the Grail! German indeed has a word Falter, which shows lack of reduplicated syllable in the noun (if that s what it is here). Here
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 23, 2006
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                    Hái Guenther,

                    Great job on the Grail!

                    German indeed has a word Falter, which shows lack of reduplicated
                    syllable in the noun (if that's what it is here). Here is a somewhat
                    interesting discussion of the word on a conlang archive which draws
                    many comparisons highlighting the repetitive tendencies for this word
                    in various human languages:
                    http://www.mail-archive.com/conlang@yahoogroups.com/msg00517.html

                    Incidentally, I found in Orel's work that he suggests the original
                    form was "fenfe-faldjan", i.e. "Fivefolder" which strikes me as rather
                    more difficult to connect semantically.

                    I cannot speculate on what the Gothic form may have been for this old
                    Germanic vocabular asset which succumbed to replacement quite early
                    on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that, whatever
                    its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight, capable of
                    flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the poem, if we
                    take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
                    *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go. *THlugi
                    < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we cannot know
                    precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-, Koebler
                    seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).


                    -Moderator


                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Golja Thuk, Thiudan!
                    >
                    > Thanks for your reply. *Fifald(r)o is great! Talking about this,
                    is the first syllable a reduplication? If so, the spelling should be
                    *faifaldro (with ai [e]) perhaps. But as far as I know (and that's not
                    a long distance) there are no nouns with a (vivid) reduplication
                    attested in Gothic, are they? And how is it (if it is) connected with
                    the stem represented in Gothic falthan (cf. nhd. Falter : falten –
                    maybe a later association?). The verb at least IS a reduplicative one
                    (Past tense: faifalth).
                    > About the "Grail" it might be of some interest to speculate.
                    > If we postulate a loanword from MLatin, then forms like *gradels,
                    *gradaleis or whatever more would do. But if trying to "find" a Gothic
                    pendant the foremost question that arises is what the Grail actually
                    was (is) – a cup, a stone, a gem etc. Here we are threatened to get
                    lost in a rather off-topic discussion that traces down to the Middle
                    Age, moreover this vagueness seems to be an integral part of the legend.
                    > Let us proceed from the offered text © Michael Adams where it is a
                    cup. Then stikls is the first that comes to the mind. Checking up its
                    attestations in Ulfilan codices we come across both sacral and profane
                    usages (cf. John 18:11 "stikl thanei gaf mis atta, niu drigkau thana?"
                    and esp. Cor. I. 10:16 ff. "stikls thiuthiqissais thanei gaweiham, niu
                    gamainduths blothis fraujins ist?" versus Mk. 7:4 "daupeinins stikle
                    jah aurkje jah katile jah ligre" et sim.). I guess, to refer more
                    precisely to the denotate we could try and "find" some composita with
                    -stikls as the second element, e. g.:
                    > *weihastikls "the holy cup",
                    > *xristustikls "Christ's cup", or even
                    > *blothastikls "blood cup" though the latter sounds somewhat
                    "vampiric", doesn't it? Cf. however Cor. I. 11:25 "sa stikls so niujo
                    triggwa ist in meinamma blotha" > *triggwastikls?
                    > Could we then draw hence some parallels to Pre-Christian items
                    attested in other Germanic areas, e. g. ON. (Eyrbyggja saga)
                    hlautbolli "cup of sacrificial blood used in rituals" etc. and thus
                    make our reconstruction more "historically verifiable"?
                    >
                    > Now let me offer you my attempt to translate the whole verse (I'm
                    afraid I again digressed too far from the original)
                    >
                    > THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
                    > one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
                    > for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
                    > sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
                    > and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
                    > I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
                    > shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
                    > sweet, and to know this, I quest.
                    >
                    > STIKLIS SOKNS
                    > Ungastoths hvarbo [ik] bi hveilain ni saurgands
                    > Sinteino sokjands stilk thana weihan
                    > *Laiwin galeiks saei laisteith tho stairnon
                    > Merjandein *mariwig faura maurginis uhtwon
                    > – Swiknana stikl ni bisauleith manna
                    > Afguths jah unwairths, arwjo skal sokjan –
                    > Framis nu farja bi fulginai mundrein
                    > Und thana andi, than aggiljus haitand mik
                    > Skaunjaim stibnom. Stikl than andnima
                    > Dragk thata *diurjo drigka us thamma
                    > Junda tho aiweinon aigi sa wairtha
                    > Libains galauba – laun this sokjandins
                    >
                    >
                    > Some remarks
                    >
                    > *laiwin is Dat. Sg. from *laiwa M. -an "boat", "small ship" – a
                    hypothetical Finnish borrowing (Fin. laiva, Est. laev "idem") into
                    Gothic when crossing the Baltic Sea. In fact it's highly improbable
                    that Goths being evidently a sea-shore nation experienced in seafaring
                    already before the migration started would adopt marine terminology
                    from elsewhere. Here it's just for the sake of rhyme.
                    > To compare the seeker with a ship that follows its way through the
                    dark of the night guided by the Pole Star (here "so stairno") would
                    seem to fit the supposed "language consciousness" of Viking Goths
                    better than the "Knight on a Quest" motive which is rather medieval.
                    All the above-said can easily be nonsense since I know too little
                    about the subject.
                    >
                    > *mariwigs "sea-way" (for mari- as the first element cf. mari-saiws).
                    > "merjan wig" for "to show the way" sounds somewhat alien. A
                    variant is "Mundondein mans sis faura maurginis uhtwon", i.e. "that
                    (sc. the Star) looks down upon humans before the day is breaking"
                    (problems with word-order, I see).
                    >
                    > *diureis adj. -ja "precious" (= ME dear)
                    >
                    > Excuse my limited vocabulary, up to the nearest time all I
                    disposed of was a brief glossary in W. Braune's Gotische Grammatik
                    (13. Auflage. – Halle/Saale: Max Niemeyer Verlag, 1952). Now looking
                    into Streitberg's (best thanks to Project Wulfila) I tell to myself
                    "And you thought you know the language!"
                    >
                    > Craving for your opinions and comments
                    > Ualarauans
                    >
                    > P. S. By the way, I heard there were authors that assumed a closer
                    bond between actual Visigoths and the Grail legends. Since I did not
                    read the books I can not judge if this idea is scientifically grounded
                    or is it just a fancy of historical fiction writers.
                    >
                    >
                    > thiudans <thiudans@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com,
                    Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hails!
                    >
                    > Nice translation & alliteration!
                    > No grammar comments now.
                    > I like flower-fly, nice invention.
                    > The first line has many syllables so I will offer a shorter one for
                    > possibility of longer notes:
                    >
                    > > O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis
                    >
                    > O *fifaldo waliso, (hwaiwa) theinamma winda-staigon galeiko
                    >
                    > "how like that wind-road (you ride)". I thought riding is implicit in
                    > "road" perhaps.
                    >
                    > If Grail shall be a borrowing = Gradéls-. Else, the attested word
                    > Stikls will do fine.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > cheers,
                    > The Moderator
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Hails, *Garazdans!
                    > > Would you mind another translation attempt? Not always a
                    > word-for-word one, of cause, but instead I tried to "reconstruct" here
                    > and there some of alliterative rhyme. All those clumsy "neologisms"
                    > are mine (just slapdash invented and without any claim to get into the
                    > waurdahuzd).
                    > > By the way, I would be very thankful for every hint about what
                    > Gothic "butterfly" or rather "Grail" be like.
                    > >
                    > > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
                    > > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
                    > > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
                    > > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
                    > > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
                    > > held but never let free.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis
                    > > Ibai sa fahands thuk frathjan duginnith
                    > > Hva maht ist haldis nibai hafta thuk fastan
                    > > Frijos sind *fliugons, thozei fairrathro brahtedun
                    > > Windos thai waiandans fram waihstam this midjungardis
                    > > Ni du fragiban thos gumane handum
                    > > Wai thamma wiljandin winda gatamjan
                    > > Draum faurdammjan in daubithos hairtins
                    > >
                    > > Looking forward a scornful sneer of connoisseurs
                    > >
                    > > Ualarauans
                    > >
                    > > Michael Adams <abrigon@> wrote: I am learning to ask first, so I
                    > do not waste peoples bandwidth
                    > > to much..
                    > >
                    > > Here goes: (two or more)
                    > >
                    > > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
                    > > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
                    > > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
                    > > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
                    > > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
                    > > held but never let free.
                    > >
                    > > THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
                    > > one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
                    > > for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
                    > > sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
                    > > and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
                    > > I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
                    > > shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
                    > > sweet, and to know this, I quest.
                    > >
                    > > VASHTI OF THE FLAME RED TRESSES: Oh my dearest lady mine, for
                    > > your passing has emptied my heart, but the memories of you will
                    > > be with me forever. The joy we felt in our youth, the times we
                    > > spent in our middle years. The things we did here, there and
                    > > all. Friends we made, times we spent, even when angry we did it
                    > > in love. How the feeling I do feel at your passing, for you my
                    > > lady of hair so red was me, and I you, a half has gone away and
                    > > left me with feelings of what now, not to replace but the
                    > > feeling of what now? Who can I turn to when I need love,
                    > > carrying, a gentle hand a soft caress, to be told I was wrong
                    > > and the love to show me gently. To be there for me, and I for
                    > > you. Bye my dear lady of flaming hair that lighted up the
                    > > darkness of my life, for before you there was darkness and now
                    > > what? Farewell my dear until that day with Gods/fates grace I
                    > > can join you once again, to walk hand in hand, arm in arm,
                    > > carress to carress, feel to feel and knowing we will be together
                    > > always..
                    > >
                    > > Mike Adams
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
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                  • John Stewart
                    Hails Thiudans! I haven t read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed awkward to me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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                      Hails Thiudans!

                      I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed awkward to
                      me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe Wulfila
                      wrote the Gothic <f> and when it was copied, someone misread it as <Þ> (TH-)?
                      (John S.)

                      > on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that, whatever
                      > its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight, capable of
                      > flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the poem, if we
                      > take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
                      > *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go. *THlugi
                      > < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we cannot know
                      > precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-, Koebler
                      > seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).
                      >
                    • Fredrik
                      Hi! The word seems to be a reduplication of a word meaning flutter, from IE pol or pal. This is related to latin papilio but with the germanic suffix -ðr-
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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                        Hi!

                        The word seems to be a reduplication of a word meaning flutter, from
                        IE pol or pal. This is related to latin papilio but with the germanic
                        suffix -ðr- from IE -tr-.
                        The german word Falter (from OHG fîfaltra) is of same origin and not
                        related to falten but with flattern.
                        Another thing I think could be important to notice is that OHG and OE
                        has long i. Cf. fîfaltra and fífealde. Also the old nordic languages
                        seems to have a long i. I dont know why and if this is a later
                        development. But if it was like this in pgmc gothic should have
                        *feifaldrô instead.

                        (facts based on runeberg.org)

                        /Fredrik

                        *Fifald(r)o is great! Talking about this, is the first syllable a
                        reduplication? If so, the spelling should be *faifaldro (with ai [e])
                        perhaps. But as far as I know (and that's not a long distance) there
                        are no nouns with a (vivid) reduplication attested in Gothic, are
                        they? And how is it (if it is) connected with the stem represented in
                        Gothic falthan (cf. nhd. Falter : falten – maybe a later
                        association?). The verb at least IS a reduplicative one (Past tense:
                        faifalth).
                      • Guenther Ramm
                        Hails! I don’t insist on the scribal error hypothesis, but the graphical likeness of the Gothic letter for [th] and the Greek letter for [f] could speak in
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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                          Hails!
                          I don’t insist on the scribal error hypothesis, but the graphical likeness of the Gothic letter for [th] and the Greek letter for [f] could speak in its favor. We know that some earlier manuscripts have the S-letter close to the Greek one while the later manuscripts use the Latin S. Could there be a similar situation with the F? I mean some early variants of Gothic alphabet could have a Greek-like F and later when these were being rewritten by Ostrogothic scribes in Italy all the confusions were made. That this hypothetical proto-F would look almost like TH is no objection – compare the letters for U and P. Due to such a confusion of U and P by Jordanes we have Gapt instead of *Gaut in Getica 79.
                          Then the question is why this confusion affected only initial fl- ?

                          Ualarauans


                          John Stewart <john.stewart@...-heidelberg.de> wrote: Hails Thiudans!

                          I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed awkward to
                          me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe Wulfila
                          wrote the Gothic and when it was copied, someone misread it as <Þ> (TH-)?
                          (John S.)

                          > on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that, whatever
                          > its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight, capable of
                          > flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the poem, if we
                          > take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
                          > *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go. *THlugi
                          > < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we cannot know
                          > precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-, Koebler
                          > seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).
                          >




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                        • thiudans
                          Koebler s Gothic Dictionary can be seen here http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html He supports the PIE *pel- etymology. I think it was Voyles who may have
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 24, 2006
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                            Koebler's Gothic Dictionary can be seen here

                            http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html


                            He supports the PIE *pel- etymology. I think it was Voyles who may
                            have suggested PIE *tel- > Go. thliuhan. I believe he does not place
                            much weight on PIE in determining PGmc. forms.


                            - In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hails!
                            > I don�t insist on the scribal error hypothesis, but the graphical
                            likeness of the Gothic letter for [th] and the Greek letter for [f]
                            could speak in its favor. We know that some earlier manuscripts have
                            the S-letter close to the Greek one while the later manuscripts use
                            the Latin S. Could there be a similar situation with the F? I mean
                            some early variants of Gothic alphabet could have a Greek-like F and
                            later when these were being rewritten by Ostrogothic scribes in Italy
                            all the confusions were made. That this hypothetical proto-F would
                            look almost like TH is no objection � compare the letters for U and P.
                            Due to such a confusion of U and P by Jordanes we have Gapt instead of
                            *Gaut in Getica 79.
                            > Then the question is why this confusion affected only initial fl- ?
                            >
                            > Ualarauans
                            >
                            >
                            > John Stewart <john.stewart@...> wrote: Hails Thiudans!
                            >
                            > I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed
                            awkward to
                            > me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe
                            Wulfila
                            > wrote the Gothic and when it was copied, someone misread it as <�>
                            (TH-)?
                            > (John S.)
                            >
                            > > on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that, whatever
                            > > its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight, capable of
                            > > flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the poem, if we
                            > > take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
                            > > *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go. *THlugi
                            > > < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we cannot know
                            > > precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-, Koebler
                            > > seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • David Kiltz
                            ... It seems rather typically Wulfilan to me. Cf. such forms as _thlauhs_ flight belonging to the same root as thliuhan. Also, e.g. _ga- thlaihan_ vs OE/OHG
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 26, 2006
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                              On 24.03.2006, at 09:13, John Stewart wrote:

                              > I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed
                              > awkward to
                              > me

                              It seems rather typically Wulfilan to me. Cf. such forms as _thlauhs_
                              'flight' belonging to the same root as thliuhan. Also, e.g. _ga-
                              thlaihan_ vs OE/OHG _flehan_, _flehon_ ...thlaqus 'tender, supple' is
                              another example if it belongs with PGM *_flakuz_ 'flat, NHG flach'.

                              So, PGM *_fl-_ > _thl-_ is pretty common in Wulfilan Gothic.

                              -David
                            • llama_nom
                              D Alquen on the Gothic letter f: One s suspicion is roused in this case. A runic letter ousting a Greek runs counter to expectation. Latin F has been
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 8 4:19 PM
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                                D'Alquen on the Gothic letter f: "One's suspicion is roused in this
                                case. A runic letter ousting a Greek runs counter to expectation.
                                Latin F has been suggested as the model (e.g. Luft 1898, 61ff.) or
                                runic under Latin influence (Mensel 1903, 463). The reason for the
                                change must have been confusion with Go. þ [i.e. the phi-like sign
                                used in the Codex Argenteus] and could have been introduced by
                                Wulfila himself." (D'Alquen 1974, p. 47, para. 2.4.31).

                                This view is criticised by Marchand on the grounds that the phi-like
                                Codex Argenteus form of Go. þ may (or as he puts it "must") be
                                itself an innovation on the original Gothic letter. Other forms
                                that occur include a letter rather like the phi-like one, but with
                                the left handle joined to the stem at both ends and the right handle
                                just a stump; a symbol like an ampersand; and Marchand's preferred
                                original, a kind of backwards c which slopes slightly to the right
                                with a little loop in the top. This is the form used by Wiljariþ;
                                it also appears in the Vienna-Salzburg Codex. He would derive it
                                from a Greek form of theta current in the 4th century. The Go. f
                                might still have been changed by post-Wulfilan scribes to avoid
                                confusion with their þ. (Marchand 1973, p. 35, para. 2.32.f; p. 20,
                                para. 1.14).

                                The difference of Go. f from Greek phi has, according to Marchand,
                                been used to argue that Go. f was labio-dental, in contrast to the
                                Greek bilabial phi; but more often the explanation given is the
                                desire to differentiate graphic forms. Marchand offers no
                                preferrence on the bilabial / labio-dental question, but d'Alquen
                                points to the name Dagalaiphus, as transcribed in Latin, as possibly
                                indicating a bilabial pronunciation, since Lat. ph was used to
                                transcribe bilabial Gk. phi.


                                Gmc. initial /fl/ appears in Biblical Gothic in some words as þl, in
                                others as fl (see Nordmeyer 1935 for etymologies). Four roots are
                                attested for each spelling: flahtons (1Tim 2,9), flautjan (1Cor
                                13,4), flauts (Gal 5,26), flodus (L 6,49), flokan (L 8,42). As
                                against: þlahsjan (2Cor 10,9), gaþlahsnan (L 1,29), gaþlaihan (Mk
                                10,16; 2Cor 2,7; 2Cor 5,20; 2Cor 7,6; Thess 2,11; 1Tim 5,1; 1Tim
                                5,8; 1Tim 6,2; 2Tim 3,2; Tit 1,9); þlaqus (Mk 13,28); þlauhs (Mk
                                13,18; þliuhan (Mk 10,23; L 3,7; J 10,5; 1Tim 6,11; 2Tim 2,22);
                                afþliuhan (J 10,13); gaþliuhan (Mt 8,33; Mk 5,14; Mk 14,50; Mk
                                14,52; Mk 16,8; L 8,34); unþaþliuhan (2Cor 11,33; Thess 5,3). No
                                root is attested in the Bible with both versions, but this may be
                                coincidence: compare the Rugian king's name Flaccitheus, as recorded
                                in the Life of Saint Severinus (d. 482) by Eugippius (d. after 533),
                                with Go. þlaqus `soft, ripe'.

                                It's been proposed that the assimilative change fl > þl was
                                conditioned by certain following velar consonants (Krause & Slocum
                                2006), h, and in one instance q, though not k. Even if that's so,
                                the rule isn't consistently applied: flahtom `plaits', dat.pl. The
                                inconsistency over velars, even in this small sample, makes such a
                                rule look very arbitrary; nevertheless it could represent a sound
                                change in progress, or an imperfectly completed sound change
                                according to the theory of lexical diffusion (Salmonds & Iverson
                                1993--which I haven't read unfortunately, just seen cited). Another
                                idea is that the fl spellings represent a different dialect to that
                                of the translator(s), and that they were introduced into the text by
                                later scribes (Nordmeyer 1935). Nordmeyer notes that the fl forms
                                are confined to Luke and the Epistles, precisely the areas where we
                                find most evidence of non-original features, such as confusion of
                                ei : e. But then Nordmeyer's comment that POTAMOS is normally
                                translated ahva and that flodus needed a gloss could also tie in the
                                observation that certain types of sound change begin with familiar
                                words and are slower to affect rarer words [
                                http://www.unm.edu/~jbybee/Lexical%20Diffusion.htm ], and thus
                                needn't necessarily imply a dialectal difference.

                                Given d'Alquen's Ostrogothic recension theory (see my recent post
                                summarising this), we can't be sure that the þl spellings are
                                Wulfilan while the fl spellings are an Ostrogothic innovation. It
                                could be that þl was an innovation that began in Ostrogothic but
                                didn't reach all vocabulary items; or began in Ostrogothic, was
                                never completed, and was then eroded partly or entirely by analogy
                                with the remaining fl-forms. If the þl-forms are from the original
                                translation, this would undermine the theory of an Ostrogothic
                                rewrite. Does anyone know of any other sources of evidence? Any
                                relevant East Germanic names recorded in Latin or Greek, besides
                                Flaccitheus?

                                PS. The same confusion as in Gapt for *Gauts may be seen in the
                                spelling Thraustila for Thrafstila.

                                Bibliography

                                d'Alquen, Richard JE (1974) Gothic AI and AU, Mouton, The Hague.
                                Marchand, James W (1973) The Sounds and Phonemes of Wulfila's
                                Gothic, Mouton, The Hague.
                                Nordmeyer, George (1935) `Gothic initial þl-', Language, Vol. 11,
                                No. 3. (Sep., 1935), pp. 216-219 [ http://links.jstor.org/sici?
                                sici=0097-8507%28193509%2911%3A3%3C216%3AGIP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T ].
                                Salmonds & Iverson (1993) 'Gothic fl-, þl- variation as lexical
                                diffusion', Diachronia 10, 87-96.





                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Koebler's Gothic Dictionary can be seen here
                                >
                                > http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html
                                >
                                >
                                > He supports the PIE *pel- etymology. I think it was Voyles who may
                                > have suggested PIE *tel- > Go. thliuhan. I believe he does not
                                place
                                > much weight on PIE in determining PGmc. forms.
                                >
                                >
                                > - In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hails!
                                > > I don�t insist on the scribal error hypothesis, but the
                                graphical
                                > likeness of the Gothic letter for [th] and the Greek letter for [f]
                                > could speak in its favor. We know that some earlier manuscripts
                                have
                                > the S-letter close to the Greek one while the later manuscripts use
                                > the Latin S. Could there be a similar situation with the F? I mean
                                > some early variants of Gothic alphabet could have a Greek-like F
                                and
                                > later when these were being rewritten by Ostrogothic scribes in
                                Italy
                                > all the confusions were made. That this hypothetical proto-F would
                                > look almost like TH is no objection � compare the letters for U
                                and P.
                                > Due to such a confusion of U and P by Jordanes we have Gapt
                                instead of
                                > *Gaut in Getica 79.
                                > > Then the question is why this confusion affected only initial
                                fl- ?
                                > >
                                > > Ualarauans
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > John Stewart <john.stewart@> wrote: Hails Thiudans!
                                > >
                                > > I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed
                                > awkward to
                                > > me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe
                                > Wulfila
                                > > wrote the Gothic and when it was copied, someone misread it as
                                <�>
                                > (TH-)?
                                > > (John S.)
                                > >
                                > > > on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that,
                                whatever
                                > > > its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight,
                                capable of
                                > > > flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the
                                poem, if we
                                > > > take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
                                > > > *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go.
                                *THlugi
                                > > > < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we
                                cannot know
                                > > > precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-,
                                Koebler
                                > > > seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).
                              • Guenther Ramm
                                First, thanks a lot for drawing attention to D Alquen and his idea of the Gothic digraphs. For me, the view on those “earlier” borrowings (where Greek /e/
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 11 9:29 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  First, thanks a lot for drawing attention to D'Alquen and his idea of the Gothic digraphs. For me, the view on those “earlier” borrowings (where Greek /e/ and /o/ are “gothicised” into /i/ resp. /u/) as reflexes of phonetic peculiarities of the Wulfilan dialect (if I understood it correctly) was especially enlightening. I guess it would also help to explain why the loanwords of the Greek second declension with -os in Nom. Sg. so regularly go after the Gothic u-stems. Btw, is of any effect for the topic that old opinion that a good deal of these “narrow” spellings could be results of a pseudo-etymological interpretation? - that, e.g. -i- in Makidonja was seen as a stem vowel (popularly “dismembered” in Maki-donja), -i- in aggilus as a part of the suffix -il- etc.? Cf. the seemingly deliberate rendering of Greek bEthleem as bethlahaim, where the first epsilon > a (quasi a stem vowel of the first element in the compositum), and the second > ai (a diphthong after the Germanic
                                  place-names on -haim). What this bethla- could mean then?
                                  To the supposed confusion of the letters *faihu and *thiuth. Reading Jordanes long ago I noticed the name Safrac (Get. 134, one of Ostrogothic “primates”), mentioned also as Saphrax by Ammianus Marcellinus and Zosimus. The name itself is most probably of Alano-Iranian descent (as so many Getica names ending on -ac are). I am almost sure that I was not the first to make the following supposition, but evidently I had missed the proper literature. In short, I supposed that all the above-mentioned authors, successively or independently of each other, somehow took this name from a written Gothic source (maybe the same source where Gapt-Gaut came from), where it stood as *Sathrak(s) < Iranian *Xshathraka- “a powerful one” from Avestan xshathra- = Sanskrit kshatra- “power”, “strength” etc. If anyone knows whether this or some other etymology of the name has already been proposed I would greatly appreciate the reference. If this one is true, then here is another case of the
                                  involuntary letter replacement caused by graphical likeness (of course if we accept that Gothic [f] could ever be written with a phi-like sign).
                                  What concerns our fl-/thl-, so as I understood there are etymologies assuming both PIE pl- and PIE tl- for one and the same root, aren’t there? Rather typical situation for etymologists :) Apart from the graphical question I like most the idea that thl- be a later and limited (both temporally and territorially) development, and
                                  > that the assimilative change fl > þl was
                                  > conditioned by certain following velar consonants (Krause & Slocum
                                  > 2006), h, and in one instance q, though not k.,
                                  even though
                                  > the rule isn't consistently applied: flahtom `plaits', dat.pl.

                                  Ualarauans


                                  llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:
                                  Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • llama_nom
                                  ... of the Gothic digraphs. For me, the view on those earlier borrowings (where Greek /e/ and /o/ are gothicised into /i/ resp. /u/) as reflexes of
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 15 5:35 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > First, thanks a lot for drawing attention to D'Alquen and his idea
                                    of the Gothic digraphs. For me, the view on those "earlier"
                                    borrowings (where Greek /e/ and /o/ are "gothicised" into /i/
                                    resp. /u/) as reflexes of phonetic peculiarities of the Wulfilan
                                    dialect (if I understood it correctly) was especially enlightening.


                                    Yeah, it's a very interesting book. The more traditional view is
                                    that these anamalous spellings point to Pre-Gothic loans, i.e. from
                                    before the time of Wulfila's supposed bible translation. But
                                    d'Alquen's proposal that they're relics of the original Wulfilan
                                    spelling helps to explain some otherwise puzzling aspects of the
                                    writing system, especially why <ai> and <au> were used instead of
                                    simple letters based on epsilon and omicron. (Incidentally,
                                    regarding another part of his study, I wonder if anyone has made a
                                    similar assessment of Gothic names in Greek sources and loanwords
                                    into Slavonic.)


                                    > I guess it would also help to explain why the loanwords of the
                                    Greek second declension with -os in Nom. Sg. so regularly go after
                                    the Gothic u-stems.


                                    Yes, although the traditional explanations are maybe adequate; even
                                    with phonemic /O/, this declension might offer the closest match in
                                    sound with Greek -os nouns.


                                    > Btw, is of any effect for the topic that old opinion that a good
                                    deal of these "narrow" spellings could be results of a pseudo-
                                    etymological interpretation? - that, e.g. -i- in Makidonja was seen
                                    as a stem vowel (popularly "dismembered" in Maki-donja), -i- in
                                    aggilus as a part of the suffix -il- etc.? Cf. the seemingly
                                    deliberate rendering of Greek bEthleem as bethlahaim, where the
                                    first epsilon > a (quasi a stem vowel of the first element in the
                                    compositum), and the second > ai (a diphthong after the Germanic
                                    place-names on -haim). What this bethla- could mean then?


                                    I guess the <o> of Makidonja, if it represents [o:], could be due
                                    either to the Greek stress or a secondary stress in Gothic, if that
                                    syllable was pronounced like the second part of a native compound.
                                    Maybe due to a loss of distinction in unstressed vowels, or a
                                    raising of [a] > [E], but <e> is very common as a stem vowel in
                                    Latin transcriptions of Gothic names, cf. Suniefridus =
                                    Sunjaifriþas. I wonder what bearing that could have on the question
                                    of when an how [E] was phonemicised. D'Alquen saw loss and
                                    assimilation of postvocalic /h/ as an important stage in this
                                    process, but another factor could be the
                                    prepositions/prefixes 'faur', 'faura' and the prefix 'fair-'. If
                                    breaking only happened under stress (as seems likely), do these
                                    represent originally stressed or half stressed forms that have been
                                    extended by analogy to unstressed positions? Did analogy extend to
                                    pronunciation, or is it just orthographic?



                                    > To the supposed confusion of the letters *faihu and *thiuth.
                                    Reading Jordanes long ago I noticed the name Safrac (Get. 134, one
                                    of Ostrogothic "primates"), mentioned also as Saphrax by Ammianus
                                    Marcellinus and Zosimus. The name itself is most probably of Alano-
                                    Iranian descent (as so many Getica names ending on -ac are). I am
                                    almost sure that I was not the first to make the following
                                    supposition, but evidently I had missed the proper literature. In
                                    short, I supposed that all the above-mentioned authors, successively
                                    or independently of each other, somehow took this name from a
                                    written Gothic source (maybe the same source where Gapt-Gaut came
                                    from), where it stood as *Sathrak(s) < Iranian *Xshathraka- "a
                                    powerful one" from Avestan xshathra- = Sanskrit kshatra-
                                    "power", "strength" etc. If anyone knows whether this or some other
                                    etymology of the name has already been proposed I would greatly
                                    appreciate the reference. If this one is true, then here is another
                                    case of the


                                    Interesting. I haven't seen that idea before, but then I'm not all
                                    that widely read. Could the change have been motivated in this case
                                    by folk-etymology involving the Gothic name element Sab(a)-?



                                    > involuntary letter replacement caused by graphical likeness (of
                                    course if we accept that Gothic [f] could ever be written with a phi-
                                    like sign).
                                    > What concerns our fl-/thl-, so as I understood there are
                                    etymologies assuming both PIE pl- and PIE tl- for one and the same
                                    root, aren't there? Rather typical situation for etymologists :)
                                    Apart from the graphical question I like most the idea that thl- be
                                    a later and limited (both temporally and territorially) development,
                                    and
                                    > > that the assimilative change fl > þl was
                                    > > conditioned by certain following velar consonants (Krause &
                                    Slocum
                                    > > 2006), h, and in one instance q, though not k.,
                                    > even though
                                    > > the rule isn't consistently applied: flahtom `plaits', dat.pl.



                                    Nordmeyer certainly explained them all as from PIE *pl. Unless
                                    there are strong reasons for positing *tl, the general *pl
                                    explanation seems simplest. Now, a question for the statisticians
                                    among us: which is the bigger coincidence, that fl- spellings are
                                    confined to Luke and the Epistles (supposedly the areas with the
                                    least conservative orthography)--this was the distribution that
                                    Nordmeyer thought most significant--or that the two roots with a non-
                                    velar consonant (out of eight roots attested) should both be among
                                    the fl- spellings.

                                    VELAR: 4x þl-, 2x fl-
                                    DENTAL: 0x þl-, 2x fl-

                                    The Slocum / Krause hypothesis that requires a special rule for the
                                    single instance of 'k' seems to me inelegant and arbitrary,
                                    especially when we can see that 'h' might or might not trigger fl- >
                                    þl-. Simpler to suppose that it might or might not happen with any
                                    velar. But this begs the question of why. What qualities would a
                                    velar consonant have that could cause such a change (let alone what
                                    quality 'k' would have to make it have a different effect from 'q'
                                    and 'h')? It can hardly be assimilation or dissimilation.

                                    Could it be that an assimalative change fl- > þl- happened
                                    (sporadically? dialectally?) with any sort of consonant after the
                                    next vowel, except for a dental? That a dental should block the
                                    change could be explained as a case of dissmilation. Note the
                                    dental after the velar also in 'flahtom'. That would leave just the
                                    one anomaly of 'faiflokun', rather than the two problems
                                    of 'flahtom' and 'faiflokun'.

                                    Finally, does the fact that no one root is attested with both
                                    spellings suggest that maybe the sound change was not in progress at
                                    the time of the scribes, but already fixed (allowing the possibility
                                    of doublets), whether the difference is dialectal or otherwise? Or
                                    is this a coincidence (too)?

                                    LN
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