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Re: Emigration av (some) Goths

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  • Ingemar Nordgren
    Hear, hear! At last a sensible voice. Thank you Konrad.As you know I have already stated since long both gutar, gautar and possibly ýtar (Eutoz) and many
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 10, 2006
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      Hear, hear!
      At last a sensible voice. Thank you Konrad.As you know I have already
      stated since long both gutar, gautar and possibly ýtar (Eutoz) and
      many Norwegians are Gothic or kindred folks (e.g. Rugii) and a large
      quantity of them remains. The Gutar probably might have been more
      directly involved with the Continental Goths because of geographical
      reasons but also other Scandinavians are Gothic or else e.g.
      Gautland/Götaland should not exist. Well, I know there is opposition
      by certain members tovards my theories and I do not intend to try to
      convert them. The easiest way to understand what I claim is, for those
      other interested, to buy and read my dissertation that is published as
      'The Well Spring of the Goths' by iUniverse and available at every
      major netbookstore as paperback or e-book.

      Best
      Ingemar

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:

      Thus, I will grant the Gotlanders the same rights
      > as other folks to define their own culture and see it as they will,
      > without too much interference from the rest of us. Stating things
      > like 'you are not a Goth' or 'this list has nothing to do with your
      > culture' to living Goths would be like telling an Irish person that
      > he need no apply to a list about ancient Irish or Celts, as he is
      > neither Irish nor Celtic. Therefore, I simply offer these words in
      > the hope that academics, and others, interested in Goths, show the
      > living the same respect as the dead.
      >
      > Sincerely,
      > Konrad
    • macmaster@riseup.net
      Actually, Galician (or Gallego as it is called) is a Romance language closely related to Portuguese (it s sometimes considered a dialect of Portuguese) and is
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 10, 2006
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        Actually, Galician (or Gallego as it is called) is a Romance language
        closely related to Portuguese (it's sometimes considered a dialect of
        Portuguese) and is spoken in the northwest corner of Spain, immediately
        'above' Portugal.

        It's actually a good example of my point of how names move around.
        There's also a Galicia divided between Poland and the Ukraine and formerly
        a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that happens to have the same name
        (it's a latinization of the name "Halych" and has nothing to do with
        Celts. The region around Ankara in Turkey used to be called Galatia (iit
        appears in the New Testament as such) due to Celtic settlers.

        Northern Italy was Cisalpine Gaul in Roman times and France was Gaul, of
        course. All but the Polish region do show a relation with the ancient
        Celts but not so much with modern speakers of Gaelic (except that all come
        from the same source).

        As has been pointed out, there are several place names/peoples in what are
        now Sweden and Denmark that look a lot like "Goths" - Geats, Gotlanders,
        Jutes and so on. Are they all the same people? maybe but maybe not.

        There are also "Danes" scattered all over the Indo-European diaspora, from
        the Hebrew Tribe of Dan that seems to have been one of the "sea-peoples"
        initially through the Greek Danaans of Homer and the Irish Tuatha de
        Danann to the Don Cossacks and so. Are they all one people? Of course
        not ...

        While it's nice to imagine ourselves as descended from magnificent ancient
        peoples, sticking to the actual stuff of history is more convincing and
        sometimes more exciting. With the Goths, let's try to stick to what is
        actually known from the written sources and from archaeology. To me,
        that's fascinating enough.

        Tom macMaster


        joe wrote:
        > In the March 2006 edition of National Geographic there is an article
        > on the Celts, their history and culture. It includes a map showing
        > where Celtic people currently live in Western Europe..and it includes
        > Brittany in France and Galicia in Spain.
        >
        > akoddsson wrote:
        > Yes, but France is, admittedly, a rather large nation. Perhaps one
        > should look at provincial populations more closely, as several
        > groups in France would seem to exist as smaller cultural groupings,
        > common language aside (Basks an exception here). Consider, for
        > instance, the Gaelic population of Galitia (wrong spelling, no
        > doubt ;) From what I understand, they still speak a kind of Gaelic.
        > I discovered on a radio program that they also play some fierce and
        > beautiful Gaelic music, closely related to Irish. There are likely
        > numerous other links. Thus, I don't believe that cultures simply
        > disappear due to emigration by some members.
        >
        >
        >
      • OSCAR HERRERA
        the other speakers seem to be on track, pretty much......tho faura rodaizaim atsaila fagra god laistjana......oscar macmaster@riseup.net wrote: Actually,
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 11, 2006
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          the other speakers seem to be on track, pretty much......tho faura rodaizaim atsaila fagra god laistjana......oscar

          macmaster@... wrote:
          Actually, Galician (or Gallego as it is called) is a Romance language
          closely related to Portuguese (it's sometimes considered a dialect of
          Portuguese) and is spoken in the northwest corner of Spain, immediately
          'above' Portugal.

          It's actually a good example of my point of how names move around.
          There's also a Galicia divided between Poland and the Ukraine and formerly
          a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that happens to have the same name
          (it's a latinization of the name "Halych" and has nothing to do with
          Celts. The region around Ankara in Turkey used to be called Galatia (iit
          appears in the New Testament as such) due to Celtic settlers.

          Northern Italy was Cisalpine Gaul in Roman times and France was Gaul, of
          course. All but the Polish region do show a relation with the ancient
          Celts but not so much with modern speakers of Gaelic (except that all come
          from the same source).

          As has been pointed out, there are several place names/peoples in what are
          now Sweden and Denmark that look a lot like "Goths" - Geats, Gotlanders,
          Jutes and so on. Are they all the same people? maybe but maybe not.

          There are also "Danes" scattered all over the Indo-European diaspora, from
          the Hebrew Tribe of Dan that seems to have been one of the "sea-peoples"
          initially through the Greek Danaans of Homer and the Irish Tuatha de
          Danann to the Don Cossacks and so. Are they all one people? Of course
          not ...

          While it's nice to imagine ourselves as descended from magnificent ancient
          peoples, sticking to the actual stuff of history is more convincing and
          sometimes more exciting. With the Goths, let's try to stick to what is
          actually known from the written sources and from archaeology. To me,
          that's fascinating enough.

          Tom macMaster


          joe wrote:
          > In the March 2006 edition of National Geographic there is an article
          > on the Celts, their history and culture. It includes a map showing
          > where Celtic people currently live in Western Europe..and it includes
          > Brittany in France and Galicia in Spain.
          >
          > akoddsson wrote:
          > Yes, but France is, admittedly, a rather large nation. Perhaps one
          > should look at provincial populations more closely, as several
          > groups in France would seem to exist as smaller cultural groupings,
          > common language aside (Basks an exception here). Consider, for
          > instance, the Gaelic population of Galitia (wrong spelling, no
          > doubt ;) From what I understand, they still speak a kind of Gaelic.
          > I discovered on a radio program that they also play some fierce and
          > beautiful Gaelic music, closely related to Irish. There are likely
          > numerous other links. Thus, I don't believe that cultures simply
          > disappear due to emigration by some members.
          >
          >
          >






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        • Wilhelm Otto
          Hi Tore, Oscar, Macmaster and Konrad et al. This is about idea swapping. On one hand everyone has a right to hold any views, and on the other side if I give
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 29, 2006
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            Hi Tore, Oscar, Macmaster and Konrad et al.

            This is about idea swapping.

            On one hand everyone has a right to hold any views, and on the other side if
            I give voice to a line of thought on a mailing what I say is fair game, so
            to speak. I see such a view as unconditional. If I confront your views I
            also stake my own, i.e. if my views do not stand the test I am prepared to
            try the views of the other party, at least tentatively, and the other way
            around. It is like comparing watches in the market. The best watch wins and
            winner takes al. This applies to science matters. But how do we treat belief
            systems? And where in the grey zone do I draw the line between myth and
            science?



            There is certainly a grey zone as we know much less than we think we do.
            Much of that we take for granted is just a more or less well founded
            intellectual construction. We imply, we presume, we consider that a
            statistical probability speaks for this or that. We are actually lumbering
            about with a back pack full of myths. This is OK in everyday life. It makes
            it possible for us to navigate in life. But is it good enough when it comes
            down to science or those areas, where we apply scientific rules? And on a
            mailing list we try to apply scientific methods. The general answer to these
            and similar questions is answered by historians, who I am not, by careful
            testing of every assumption on which an idea is founded. Similar sounding
            words are not given much credit by these historians. If you pick Goth and
            Gotland you could as easily pick jute and Jutland. They contain the same
            root of the word. And why leave out Gotaland, i.e. the south of Sweden.
            There has to be a well proven binding connection. Historians of this kind
            are found in every country. In Tore’s Sweden there are among others the
            Weibull brothers, Erik Lönnroth.





            This is but an example of method to push our knowledge a bit further. Sir
            Karl Popper tells us to disprove and falsify our own views. In the wake of
            failure we might have found something useful. According to this view
            intellectual improvement is a result of consecutive failures. And history
            teaches us that what we believe in to day is to morrow probably all wrong.
            What is great and important to day will to morrow probably be forgotten.
            Admittedly we know a lot more to day about the construction of our solar
            system then we did in Kepler´s times, but we are still making great
            improvements. So your views, as well as mine, are probably tentative. There
            are indeed very few matters that can described as final. Not even the Goths
            heritage.



            This process of intellectual development is intimately connected with the
            evolution of ideas. Thomas S Kuhn came in the early 1960´s with “The
            Structure of Scientific Revolutions”. There he claimed there was a sudden
            shift of paradigms. Gradually the old dominant one was considered obsolete
            and a new one was chosen. These revolutions can be triggered by
            technological breakthroughs, such as construction of the first telescope and
            we found that the heavenly bodies were not perfect and unchanging. There can
            be a conceptual breakthrough as the invention of calculus so laws of motion
            can be formulated. And there can be a breakthrough which explains older
            ideas as when Mendel’s genetic results proved Darwins theories. Most
            researchers see this to day as a Darwinian process. Teachers, researchers
            but maybe foremost the staffs of the scientific newspapers play an important
            part. This is a very slow process, you think, when you are inside it. But
            remember that this process is still young. It is about 180 years ago that a
            young man started to organize the Kings of Denmark cabinet of curiosities.
            He then sorted the very old things in three compartments, one for things of
            stone, one for things of bronze and on for iron. Eventually the concepts of
            Stone Age, of Bronze Age and of Iron Age were born out of this. It is my
            grandparents’ time. In the history of nations it is not even yesterday. It
            is to day. Let this process then work for a notable time and you see the
            evolution of science. And in this process of change some of us are slower,
            but others are more up to change. But history can not be an isolated part of
            that process!



            So it is doubtful that we ever will find common acceptance of facts and how
            they are related from times long gone, for example the heritage of the
            Goths. Those were times when common writing seldom took place, and when it
            happened it had other purposes than finding the truth. But it seems to me,
            with all this in mind that Heathers revision of Jordanes, which is very well
            considered by the leading scientists, was not entirely out of place.

            Wilhelm




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