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[gothic-l] Hansa

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  • Bertil Häggman
    Indeed hansa is a very interesting word. In Gothic hansa means, as you write, party, in the meaning of a number of peoples, skara in modern Swedish. It would
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 14, 1999
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      Indeed hansa is a very interesting word.
      In Gothic hansa means, as you write,
      party, in the meaning of a number of peoples,
      "skara" in modern Swedish. It would be interesting
      to research how this old Gothic word came
      to be the name for the powerful Hansa
      trade organisation with its powercenter
      in Luebeck.

      Other words of interest which can be
      found in Swedish is:

      barn (Sw, barn) = child
      fagr (Sw. fager) = beautiful
      tuggl (Sw, dialect,
      province of Dalarna, tungel) = moon

      Best Gothic-Gotlandic greetings

      Bertil Haggman
      >Yes, Hansa is a word that also was used by the originally german
      >trade organisation in Lubeck. Before them Visby on Gotland was one
      >of the biggest and most well organised merchant organisations in the
      >Baltic sea. There are a number of farms called "Unghanse". My theory
      >is that they mean, young organised merchant. The gotlanders("gutar")had
      >their
      >own storage magasin in Novgorod, by the germans called "gotenhof".
      >Because of breaking of an earlier agreement between emperor Lothar and
      >Gotland about non-taxing, there was a war between Heinrich Löwe(Henry
      >the Lion)of Sassony(Lubeck,1159-the foundation year). It ends with the
      >gotlanders getting their will and germans are allowed to settle in
      >Visby(1161). AFTER this they began to dominate. I also have written
      >about pure gothic-like forms surviving on Gotland until the 14th and
      >15th c. On a runinscription on a baptist funt:"ladon", which is gothic
      >and means invite. A lot of placenames ending on-garn(Ljugarn,
      >Östergarn), and all of them are old marketplaces. "Ga-runs", means in
      >gothic marketplace, street and square. A silverchurchlamp from the 12c
      >containing "kuning"-king. A gotlander says "je hait", for my name is,
      >"ek hait" in gothic etc. So I think that it is possible that the
      >germans borrowed the name from the gotlanders trade organisation. Do
      >anybody know if germans on that time were familiar with gothic sources?
      >The silverbible was possibly in Aachen then, but otherwise Gotland is a
      >possible explonation, with their surviving gothicisms.
    • Bertil Häggman
      It is not the party you think it is. Bertil Haggman
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 14, 1999
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        It is not the party you think it is.

        Bertil Haggman

        >> hansa, sf. “party” (extended meaning)
        >
        > Bah, I guess we don't have the party where Jesus does the water to
        >wine thing?
      • Terje Ellefsen
        Hello! I m working on a school paper about the Hansa organisation, and I ve found texts that say that Hanse means group of armed men , obviously in German.
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 17, 2004
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          Hello!


          I'm working on a school paper about the Hansa organisation, and I've found
          texts that say that "Hanse" means "group of armed men", obviously in German.
          I'd like to know if there are any cognates in other Germanic languages.
          Words from the middle ages or earlier is what I'm aiming for, but later
          words might also come in handy. So I'm basically looking for the origin of
          the word and its relatives, as it were.

          Terje

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        • Tore Gannholm
          Hi! Uwe Ziegler in Die Hanse says: Ebenfalls in einer englischen Königsurkunde taucht 1267 erstmals der Begriff Hansa in der schriftlichen Überlieferung
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 17, 2004
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            Hi!
            Uwe Ziegler in "Die Hanse" says:
            Ebenfalls in einer englischen K�nigsurkunde taucht 1267 erstmals der
            Begriff Hansa in der schriftlichen �berlieferung auf als Bezeichnung
            f�r die Osterlinge, die l�bischen Kaufleute also. Die Engl�nder kannten
            diese Bezeichnung freliich schon viel l�nger als Bezeichnung f�r
            freiwillige Zusammenschl�sse von H�ndlern auf fremden M�rkten: In der
            �flandrischen Hanse von London� hatten sich Kaufleute aus Ypern,
            Br�gge, Lille und anderen fl�nnschen St�dten zusammengeschlossen.

            Hanse ist ein gemeingermanisches Wort. Schon Wulfila benutzt es in
            seiner gotischen Bibel�bersetzung (um 370) bei Markus 15, 16
            (Gefangennahme Christi): gahaltan alla hansa. Martin Luther �bersetzt
            diese Stelle mit: ... und riefen zusammen die ganze Schar (der
            Kriegsknechte). Sp�ter bezeichnet es allgemein eine Personengruppe, die
            sich auf Zeit und zu einem bestiminten Zweck zusammenfindet. In der
            engeren, uns gel�ufigeren Bedeutung als Gruppe von Kaufleuten, die auf
            ausl�ndischen M�rkten Handel treibt, wird das Wort seit dem fr�hen 12.
            Jahrhundert verwendet. Die Forschung erkl�rt den Wortinhalt heute mit
            �Rechtsbindung und -sicherung von Fernh�ndlergruppen, die sich im
            Nordwesten und hin zum Osten Europas zweckbestimmt zusammentaten und
            dar�ber hinaus in dauernden, bruderschaftlichen Bindungen zu einer
            Stadt oder elner st�dtischen Gilde standen� (Klaus Friedland). In der
            KanzIei Ferdinand I. (das ist der deutsche K�nig, der den Augsburger
            Religionsfrieden 1555 zustande brachte) deutete man das Wort
            etymologisch als: An-See(-St�dte).

            Tore


            On Nov 17, 2004, at 3:00 PM, Terje Ellefsen wrote:

            > Hello!
            >
            >
            > I'm working on a school paper about the Hansa organisation, and I've
            > found
            > texts that say that "Hanse" means "group of armed men", obviously in
            > German.
            > I'd like to know if there are any cognates in other Germanic
            > languages.
            > Words from the middle ages or earlier is what I'm aiming for, but
            > later
            > words might also come in handy. So I'm basically looking for the
            > origin of
            > the word and its relatives, as it were.
            >
            > Terje
            >
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          • Francisc Czobor
            Hi, Terje, as Tore already pointed out, Hansa is a common Germanic word, the reconstructed form being *hanso: The origin of German Hanse is MLG hanse
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 18, 2004
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              Hi, Terje,

              as Tore already pointed out, "Hansa" is a common Germanic word, the
              reconstructed form being *hanso:
              The origin of German "Hanse" is MLG hanse "fellowship, merchants'
              guild", cognate with OHG hansa "military troop, band, company".
              In Gothic "hansa" means, according to Koebler, "cohort, battalion,
              maniple, crowd, troop". According to the same source, the IE root of
              this common Germanic word is unclear.
              The word was borrowed in early times by Finnic and Slavic.
              So, for instance, in Finnish "kansa" means "people, nation".
              In Polish "cha,sa" (a, = the Polish nasal a vowel) means "theft",
              having, according to Czarnecki, cognates with the same meaning in
              other Slavic languages (Old Russian, Slovintz, Serbo-Croatian,
              Slovenian).
              The source for Finnic is Proto-Nordic, whereas for Slavic is either
              Gothic or OHG.

              Francisc
            • WILHELM OTTO
              Hi Terje, Cabor wrote: as Tore already pointed out, Hansa is a common Germanic word, the reconstructed form being *hanso Tore Gannholm wrote: Die Engländer
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 18, 2004
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                Hi Terje,
                Cabor wrote:
                as Tore already pointed out, "Hansa" is a common Germanic word, the
                reconstructed form being *hanso

                Tore Gannholm wrote:
                Die Engländer kannten
                diese Bezeichnung freliich schon viel länger als Bezeichnung für
                freiwillige Zusammenschlüsse von Händlern auf fremden Märkten: In der
                «flandrischen Hanse von London» hatten sich Kaufleute aus Ypern,
                Brügge, Lille und anderen flännschen Städten zusammengeschlossen.

                The word is common, it is known "all over the world", and still does not pop
                up until 1267 and does so in London. It is connected with trade, German
                Handel (m), and eventually the Lübeck organisation of tradesmen. Roman
                Catholic tradesmen from the Baltic, Germans, Danes and others were organised
                in crafts, very close to the guilds. The craft seems to organise the
                business aspect and the guild handled the more social aspects. The crafts
                and the guilds cooperated close to groups of churches. Such a group is in
                Denmark called St. Hans Churches, and consequently there were St. Hans
                Guilds.

                An example of this closeness is that the Churches were used as storage for
                the tradesmen. You may still see the crane to handle the gods in the tower
                of the German church in Visby. And during winter, when the Novgorod fair
                area was evacuated, the relevant documents were stored in the same church,
                although the keys were kept in different places.

                This was a long journey through the trade quarters in the middle Ages. My
                point is that Hanse, Hansa may derive from Hans i.e. Johannes, St. John, as
                a collective name for tradesmen organised closely to those churches and
                guilds. What do you say?
                Wilhelm

                -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                Från: Terje Ellefsen [mailto:radiorabia@...]
                Skickat: den 17 november 2004 15:00
                Till: Germanic-L@yahoogroups.com; norse_course@yahoogroups.com;
                Old_English@yahoogroups.com; gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                Ämne: [gothic-l] Hansa

                Hello!


                I'm working on a school paper about the Hansa organisation, and I've found
                texts that say that "Hanse" means "group of armed men", obviously in German.
                I'd like to know if there are any cognates in other Germanic languages.
                Words from the middle ages or earlier is what I'm aiming for, but later
                words might also come in handy. So I'm basically looking for the origin of
                the word and its relatives, as it were.

                Terje

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              • llama_nom
                Hi Terje, The Old English form is _hós_. It is used in Beowulf (line 924) of a large group of women accompanying Queen Wealhþeow. That etymology deriving
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 18, 2004
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                  Hi Terje,

                  The Old English form is _hós_. It is used in Beowulf (line 924) of a
                  large group of women accompanying Queen Wealhþeow. That etymology
                  deriving the German name from "an-See" is obviously a pre-scientific
                  idea, and nothing to do with the true etymology -- whatever that
                  might be... Koebler's Germanic dictionary mentions the cognates in
                  Old English, Old High German & Gothic, but doesn't cite any Indo-
                  European roots.

                  Llama Nom




                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@g...> wrote:
                  > Hi!
                  > Uwe Ziegler in "Die Hanse" says:
                  > Ebenfalls in einer englischen Königsurkunde taucht 1267 erstmals
                  der
                  > Begriff Hansa in der schriftlichen Überlieferung auf als
                  Bezeichnung
                  > für die Osterlinge, die lübischen Kaufleute also. Die Engländer
                  kannten
                  > diese Bezeichnung freliich schon viel länger als Bezeichnung für
                  > freiwillige Zusammenschlüsse von Händlern auf fremden Märkten: In
                  der
                  > «flandrischen Hanse von London» hatten sich Kaufleute aus Ypern,
                  > Brügge, Lille und anderen flännschen Städten zusammengeschlossen.
                  >
                  > Hanse ist ein gemeingermanisches Wort. Schon Wulfila benutzt es in
                  > seiner gotischen Bibelübersetzung (um 370) bei Markus 15, 16
                  > (Gefangennahme Christi): gahaltan alla hansa. Martin Luther
                  übersetzt
                  > diese Stelle mit: ... und riefen zusammen die ganze Schar (der
                  > Kriegsknechte). Später bezeichnet es allgemein eine
                  Personengruppe, die
                  > sich auf Zeit und zu einem bestiminten Zweck zusammenfindet. In
                  der
                  > engeren, uns geläufigeren Bedeutung als Gruppe von Kaufleuten, die
                  auf
                  > ausländischen Märkten Handel treibt, wird das Wort seit dem frühen
                  12.
                  > Jahrhundert verwendet. Die Forschung erklärt den Wortinhalt heute
                  mit
                  > «Rechtsbindung und -sicherung von Fernhändlergruppen, die sich im
                  > Nordwesten und hin zum Osten Europas zweckbestimmt zusammentaten
                  und
                  > darüber hinaus in dauernden, bruderschaftlichen Bindungen zu einer
                  > Stadt oder elner städtischen Gilde standen» (Klaus Friedland). In
                  der
                  > KanzIei Ferdinand I. (das ist der deutsche König, der den
                  Augsburger
                  > Religionsfrieden 1555 zustande brachte) deutete man das Wort
                  > etymologisch als: An-See(-Städte).
                  >
                  > Tore
                  >
                  >
                  > On Nov 17, 2004, at 3:00 PM, Terje Ellefsen wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hello!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I'm working on a school paper about the Hansa organisation, and
                  I've
                  > > found
                  > > texts that say that "Hanse" means "group of armed men",
                  obviously in
                  > > German.
                  > > I'd like to know if there are any cognates in other Germanic
                  > > languages.
                  > > Words from the middle ages or earlier is what I'm aiming for,
                  but
                  > > later
                  > > words might also come in handy. So I'm basically looking for
                  the
                  > > origin of
                  > > the word and its relatives, as it were.
                  > >
                  > > Terje
                  > >
                  > >
                  _________________________________________________________________
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                  mellom
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                  blank
                  > > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
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                • faltin2001
                  ... der ... does not pop ... That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier, the word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 19, 2004
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                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "WILHELM OTTO" <wilhelm.otto@s...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Terje,
                    > Cabor wrote:
                    > as Tore already pointed out, "Hansa" is a common Germanic word, the
                    > reconstructed form being *hanso
                    >
                    > Tore Gannholm wrote:
                    > Die Engländer kannten
                    > diese Bezeichnung freliich schon viel länger als Bezeichnung für
                    > freiwillige Zusammenschlüsse von Händlern auf fremden Märkten: In
                    der
                    > «flandrischen Hanse von London» hatten sich Kaufleute aus Ypern,
                    > Brügge, Lille und anderen flännschen Städten zusammengeschlossen.
                    >
                    > The word is common, it is known "all over the world", and still
                    does not pop
                    > up until 1267 and does so in London.




                    That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier, the
                    word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as
                    components in German words like Hansagraf, which was a public office
                    in the South Gemran town of Regensburg mentioned in the 12th century.

                    Cheers
                    Dirk
                  • WILHELM OTTO
                    Hi Dirk Dirk wrote: That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier, the word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as components
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 19, 2004
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                      Hi Dirk
                      Dirk wrote:
                      That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier, the
                      word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as
                      components in German words like Hansagraf, which was a public office
                      in the South Gemran town of Regensburg mentioned in the 12th century.

                      Thanks a lot. You are probably right and I am accepting your view. But,
                      being a bit stubborn, are there not a few hundred unaccounted years? St.
                      Hanse/Hans guilds in Denmark/Gothland/Visby connected with trade of furs on
                      Novgorod and Regensburg in the 12:th century. Are these two points of view
                      really excluding each other? I do not know myself.
                      Cheers
                      Wilhelm
                    • Francisc Czobor
                      ... My name is not Cabor . My first name is Francisc, and my last name is Czobor. This etymology for German Hanse (i.e., MLG hanse from Common-Gmc *hanso:,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 19, 2004
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                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "WILHELM OTTO" <wilhelm.otto@s...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Terje,
                        > Cabor wrote:
                        > as Tore already pointed out, "Hansa" is a common Germanic word, the
                        > reconstructed form being *hanso
                        > ...

                        My name is not "Cabor". My first name is Francisc, and my last name
                        is Czobor.
                        This etymology for German Hanse (i.e., MLG hanse from Common-Gmc
                        *hanso:, whence also Got. hansa, OHG hansa, OE hós, the basic meaning
                        being "group of (armed) people") I have found in several etymological
                        dictionaries. Please note that in MLG the meaning shifted
                        to "fellowship, merchants' guild". According to the "Online Etymology
                        Dictionary" (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php): "M.E. borrowed
                        hanse from O.Fr. hanse, M.L. hansa (both from O.H.G.) in sense of "a
                        company of merchants" (1199)."

                        Francisc Czobor
                      • Tore Gannholm
                        ... Please don t include Gotland, The word Hanse does not appear in the middel Baltic until after 1356 Tore ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 19, 2004
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                          On Nov 19, 2004, at 1:50 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:

                          >
                          > Hi Dirk
                          > Dirk wrote:
                          > That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier, the
                          > word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as
                          > components in German words like Hansagraf, which was a public office
                          > in the South Gemran town of Regensburg mentioned in the 12th century.
                          >
                          > Thanks a lot. You are probably right and I am accepting your view.
                          > But,
                          > being a bit stubborn, are there not a few hundred unaccounted years?�
                          > St.
                          > Hanse/Hans guilds in Denmark/Gothland/Visby

                          Please don't include Gotland, The word Hanse does not appear in the
                          middel Baltic until after 1356

                          Tore

                          > connected with trade of furs on
                          > Novgorod and Regensburg in the 12:th century. Are these two points of
                          > view
                          > really excluding each other? I do not know myself.
                          > Cheers
                          > Wilhelm
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • faltin2001
                          ... the ... office ... century. ... view. ... years?  ... Hi Tore, I don t want to repeat an old discussion, but I think it is important to note that German
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 22, 2004
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                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@g...> wrote:
                            >
                            > On Nov 19, 2004, at 1:50 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Hi Dirk
                            > > Dirk wrote:
                            > > That is not quite correct I am afraid. As pointed out earlier,
                            the
                            > > word is used in the Gothic bible and it is also mentioned as
                            > > components in German words like Hansagraf, which was a public
                            office
                            > > in the South Gemran town of Regensburg mentioned in the 12th
                            century.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks a lot. You are probably right and I am accepting your
                            view.
                            > > But,
                            > > being a bit stubborn, are there not a few hundred unaccounted
                            years? 
                            > > St.
                            > > Hanse/Hans guilds in Denmark/Gothland/Visby
                            >
                            > Please don't include Gotland, The word Hanse does not appear in the
                            > middel Baltic until after 1356
                            >
                            > Tore


                            Hi Tore,

                            I don't want to repeat an old discussion, but I think it is important
                            to note that German merchants visited Gotland since 1161, when
                            the 'Union of German merchants visiting Gotland' was founded. The
                            German word for 'union' is Hanse/Hansa and this Union of merchants
                            would certainly have been called Hansa by its members. Thus,
                            documents in Bardowik, Lueneburg and further to the west Lemgo call
                            the Union of German merchants in Gotland' 'chense/henze', i.e. Hanse
                            already in the 13th century. The town of Lemgo sought representation
                            by a chenzeman (Hansa man) in 1295 for its trade in Norrbys
                            Gotland. In 1191/92 the German merchants union set up a contor in
                            Nowgorod and this early Hansa is usually called the merchants' Hansa,
                            as opposed to the cities Hansa which was founded in 1356/58 and
                            called 'stede van der dudeschen hense', i.e. 'towns of the German
                            Hansa'.

                            http://www.dsm.de/Pubs/20_18.htm

                            The Luebeck merchants guilt financed the founding of many Baltic
                            cities like Riga (1201) and Reval. It had set up its own contor in
                            Nowgorod in 1191/92 and founded the Peterhof there in the first
                            decades of the 13th century. When the merchants Hansa was transformed
                            into a cities' Hansa in 1356/58 the assets of the merchants Hansa
                            formed the basis for the new union (hansa) of cities.

                            Again, I know Tore does not agree and he argues that the German word
                            Hansa was used for German merchants in the Baltic sea only since 1358
                            and was thus limited only for German merchants operating in the North
                            Sea, London, Paris, Flanders etc..

                            Cheers
                            Dirk
                          • WILHELM OTTO
                            Dear Francisc, Tore, Dirk and others, Let us sum up our position of the word Hansa/Hanse. The word is used in the Gothic Bible translated by Wulfila about 370
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 22, 2004
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                              Dear Francisc, Tore, Dirk and others,
                              Let us sum up our position of the word Hansa/Hanse.

                              The word is used in the Gothic Bible translated by Wulfila about 370
                              The word is used in the title Hansa Graf in Regensburg 12 century
                              The word is used in London in connection with a Flemish Hanse from London
                              1267
                              The word Hanse does not appear in the middle Baltic until after 1356
                              So far the Gothic list members. Thanks a lot for the help.

                              There are a few complicating factors.
                              One is that at first it is used of tradesmen, and later as a groupword for
                              merchant towns. Some towns contained hanseatic tradesmen, and did a lot of
                              trade, but were not hanseatic towns, Bergen, Stockholm. Later a group of
                              towns were formally organised as a Hanse, with an organisational
                              constitution and such paraphernalia.
                              "London's Cannon Street Station was formerly the site of the hanseatic
                              steel-yard, and remained hanseatic property until 1853." (Heer p. 64.) So it
                              was a long-lived organisation.
                              The origin seems to be a company of traders calling themselves "Gotland
                              merchants of the Holy Roman German Empire or something the like. In the
                              beginning they cooperated with the Gotland farming merchants (farbönder) on
                              the Novgorod trade.
                              There are traces in Visby of an old wall encircling at least three church
                              ruins, and two profane buildings, an old town hall and the oldest profane
                              building in Scandinavia, the "Gunpowder tower" just at the entrance of the
                              harbour. This small town is conservatively dated about 1000. It is probable
                              that there lived Gotland tradesmen, Russians and Germans. The Germans built
                              their quarters to the south.
                              1293 was the office for Novgorod trade moved from Visby to Lübeck.

                              Here were a lot of people doing a lot of work and by no means keeping to
                              themselves. And people are usually called something. There are two
                              descriptive names for these traders. They differ those who stayed the winter
                              from them coming back next season; mercatrores frequentes and mercatores
                              manentes respectively.

                              I am telling this because if you should happen to see The Lone Trader, on a
                              bench in a bierstube or a tap hall, giving such an impression of extreme
                              honesty and trustworthiness that you might be tempted to give him your
                              account number of your Cayman Island Bank, don't do it. Instead you should
                              ask the landlord what he called; not by what name, but by what profession.
                              Even if you have to pay for his bier, it could be worth it.

                              Cheers
                              Wilhelm
                            • Tore Gannholm
                              ... The correct name of that tower is Torres lambitus ... First of all there was no office for Novgorod trade in Visby. When Lübeck was populated from
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 22, 2004
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                                On Nov 22, 2004, at 8:55 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:

                                >
                                > Dear Francisc, Tore, Dirk and others,
                                > Let us sum up our position of the word Hansa/Hanse.
                                >
                                > The word is used in the Gothic Bible translated by Wulfila about 370
                                > The word is used in the title Hansa Graf in Regensburg 12 century
                                > The word is used in London in connection with a Flemish Hanse from
                                > London
                                > 1267
                                > The word Hanse does not appear in the middle Baltic until after 1356
                                > So far the Gothic list members. Thanks a lot for the help.
                                >
                                > There are a few complicating factors.
                                > One is that at first it is used of tradesmen, and later as a
                                > groupword for
                                > merchant towns. Some towns contained hanseatic tradesmen, and did a
                                > lot of
                                > trade, but were not hanseatic towns, Bergen, Stockholm. Later a group
                                > of
                                > towns were formally organised as a Hanse, with an organisational
                                > constitution and such paraphernalia.
                                > "London's Cannon Street Station was formerly the site of the hanseatic
                                > steel-yard, and remained hanseatic property until 1853." (Heer p.
                                > 64.) So it
                                > was a long-lived organisation.
                                > The origin seems to be a company of traders calling themselves
                                > "Gotland
                                > merchants of the Holy Roman German Empire or something the like. In
                                > the
                                > beginning they cooperated with the Gotland farming merchants
                                > (farb�nder) on
                                > the Novgorod trade.
                                > There are traces in Visby of an old wall encircling at least three
                                > church
                                > ruins, and two profane buildings, an old town hall and the oldest
                                > profane
                                > building in Scandinavia, the "Gunpowder tower"


                                The correct name of that tower is "Torres lambitus"


                                > just at the entrance of the
                                > harbour. This small town is conservatively dated about 1000. It is
                                > probable
                                > that there lived Gotland tradesmen, Russians and Germans. The Germans
                                > built
                                > their quarters to the south.
                                > 1293 was the office for Novgorod trade moved from Visby to L�beck.

                                First of all there was no office for Novgorod trade in Visby. When
                                L�beck was populated from Westphalia in the second half of the 12th
                                century also Visby got their part of Westphalians. At the Civil war in
                                Gotland 1288 when Visby broke away from Gotland and formed their own
                                City republic about half of the population was German speaking and the
                                other half Gotlandic speaking.

                                Where did you find that date 1293? It is not true. It was an only an
                                attempt by L�beck to move the court handling disputes on the Novgorod
                                trade from Visby to L�beck. However that attempt failed.

                                All disputes for trade on Novgorod was handled at the court in Visby.
                                In the 1290's L�beck tried to have these disputes moved to a court in
                                L�beck. In 1299 L�beck managed to prohibit the seal of "Mercantores" to
                                be used any longer. Probably in the 1320 L�beck managed to also accept
                                L�beck together with Visby as places for the court to handle disputes
                                on the Novgorod trade. However disputes handled in L�beck had to be
                                approve by the court in Visby.
                                As you can see there was a struggle between Visby and L�beck for the
                                dominance of the important Novgorod trade.

                                A common meeting in Novgorod where merchants from L�beck and Visby
                                were present announced that "de menen stede" on May 1st 1373 in L�beck
                                had agreed that the court for disputes on the Novgorod trade should be
                                moved to L�beck.

                                However it was not the Novgorod trade that had any influence on the
                                formning of the "Dudeschen Hanse" in 1356.
                                It was the problems that were in Br�gge as the visiting merchats did
                                not have a working organization there. Therefore when the cities from
                                whom merchants traded in Br�gge commonly took control of the Br�gge
                                office a Hanse organization was formed.

                                Tore



                                >
                                > Here were a lot of people doing a lot of work and by no means keeping
                                > to
                                > themselves. And people are usually called something. There are two
                                > descriptive names for these traders. They differ those who stayed the
                                > winter
                                > from them coming back next season; mercatrores frequentes and
                                > mercatores
                                > manentes respectively.
                                >
                                > I am telling this because if you should happen to see The Lone
                                > Trader, on a
                                > bench in a bierstube or a tap hall, giving such an impression of
                                > extreme
                                > honesty and trustworthiness that you might be tempted to give him your
                                > account number of your Cayman Island Bank, don't do it. Instead you
                                > should
                                > ask the landlord what he called; not by what name, but by what
                                > profession.
                                > Even if you have to pay for his bier, it could be worth it.
                                >
                                > Cheers
                                > Wilhelm
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > You are a member of the Gothic-L list.� To unsubscribe, send a blank
                                > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • WILHELM OTTO
                                Dear Dirk and Francisc. I note that Dirk refers to an earlier discussion with Tore about Hansa. I only have followed the list for a year or so, and did not
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 24, 2004
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                                  Dear Dirk and Francisc.
                                  I note that Dirk refers to an earlier discussion with Tore about Hansa. I
                                  only have followed the list for a year or so, and did not know about this.
                                  Sorry.
                                  Most of our knowledge, and especially scientific knowledge, is mainstream.
                                  Social communication would not work otherwise. But as our knowledge is not
                                  static, we have to try to expand it a little now and then. It was what I
                                  tried to do when I started the discussion with Terje. It was not a planned
                                  assault from my part. I just drifted into it.
                                  But the thoughts I have hade for some time is that the victorious writes the
                                  history. The Lübeck Germans were very successful for a long time. And the
                                  Baltic trade is old. Kjell Kumlien points out that the Danes plans for an
                                  emporium were lost 1227 in a battle at "Bornhoeved". Does that mean
                                  Bornholm? From around 1000, when Canute became the absolute power in
                                  Scandinavia until then the Danes had an upper hand. There are a lot of St
                                  Canute and St. Hans guilds and their churches around.

                                  This is not enough to make a forceful argument, but a tentative question if
                                  anyone may see a pattern I am grasping for. Sometime it is mainstream to
                                  identify a loser's history as well as the victors´!
                                  Wilhelm
                                • WILHELM OTTO
                                  Hello Tore. You have taught me a lot about Visby s relations with Lübeck. It is clear that they by no means were uncomplicated. It says a lot of Visby s
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 24, 2004
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                                    Hello Tore.
                                    You have taught me a lot about Visby's relations with Lübeck. It is clear
                                    that they by no means were uncomplicated. It says a lot of Visby's
                                    importance that it took so long for Lübeck to get the upper hand.
                                    It is right that you point out the decision to move the office of the Russia
                                    travellers (rysslandsfararnas kontor) 1293 was just a decision. Ingvar
                                    Andersson in Swedish Encyclopaedia (article on the word HANSAN) states that
                                    Visby fate was sealed as the loser in this power struggle when this decision
                                    was taken. Ingvar Andersson might be and old reference but I am quite sure
                                    he has got it right. He is, as you well know, kept in the highest regard,
                                    among Swedish historians.
                                    Concerning "the Gunpowder Tower" (Kruttornet) it is the name that is used to
                                    day. That is the name you find on maps telling you were it is. It was, once,
                                    called the "Torres lambitus", the Lamb tower. It was the correct name.
                                    Kruttornet is the correct name.

                                    Wilhelm
                                  • Tore Gannholm
                                    Wilhelm, You are quite correct that we must see the history from more sides. Lübeck was the Deutsche Hanse in the 15th century. From German point of view and
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 25, 2004
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                                      Wilhelm,
                                      You are quite correct that we must see the history from more sides.
                                      Lübeck was the Deutsche Hanse in the 15th century. From German point of
                                      view and especially with the contribution of Rörig this is the Hanse
                                      and the historian have projected the history backwards.
                                      This is very common.
                                      I attended a Hanse symposium in Lübeck some years back and brought up
                                      the background to the Hanse. Most scolars there had suppressed it or
                                      were unaware of it as it did not fit into their picture.
                                      However when we discussed the matter they agreed that the Gotlandic
                                      involvement in the early Baltic trade was gigantic and that the
                                      Westphalians had broken into that trade by settleling in the newly
                                      formed village of Lübeck and after the Artlenburg peace between
                                      Heinrich Löwe and Gotland in 1161 started to settle in Visby and
                                      forming "universitatem communium mercatorun".

                                      When I started researching the history of Gotland the mainstream was
                                      100% the Swedish view as they were the winners after annexing Gotland
                                      in 1679.

                                      Today the Gotlandic side of the history is accepted even by most Swedes.



                                      On Nov 24, 2004, at 3:01 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Dear Dirk and Francisc.
                                      > I note that Dirk refers to an earlier discussion with Tore about
                                      > Hansa. I
                                      > only have followed the list for a year or so, and did not know about
                                      > this.
                                      > Sorry.
                                      > Most of our knowledge, and especially scientific knowledge, is
                                      > mainstream.
                                      > Social communication would not work otherwise. But as our knowledge
                                      > is not
                                      > static, we have to try to expand it a little now and then. It was
                                      > what I
                                      > tried to do when I started the discussion with Terje. It was not a
                                      > planned
                                      > assault from my part. I just drifted into it.
                                      > But the thoughts I have hade for some time is that the victorious
                                      > writes the
                                      > history. The Lübeck Germans were very successful for a long time. And
                                      > the
                                      > Baltic trade is old. Kjell Kumlien points out that the Danes plans
                                      > for an
                                      > emporium were lost 1227 in a battle at "Bornhoeved".


                                      It is north to Hamburg.

                                      > Does that mean
                                      > Bornholm? From around 1000, when Canute became the absolute power in
                                      > Scandinavia until then the Danes had an upper hand.  There are a lot
                                      > of St
                                      > Canute and St. Hans guilds and their churches around.
                                      >
                                      > This is not enough to make a forceful argument, but a tentative
                                      > question if
                                      > anyone may see a pattern I am grasping for. Sometime it is mainstream
                                      > to
                                      > identify a loser's history as well as the victors´!
                                      > Wilhelm
                                      >

                                      Tore



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Tore Gannholm
                                      ... Wilhelm, Torres lambitus means The tower that is licked by water It was located at the northern entrance to the harbour where the ships left the harbour.
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Nov 25, 2004
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                                        On Nov 24, 2004, at 3:01 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:

                                        >
                                        > Hello Tore.
                                        > You have taught me a lot about Visby's relations with Lübeck. It is
                                        > clear
                                        > that they by no means were uncomplicated. It says a lot of Visby's
                                        > importance that it took so long for Lübeck to get the upper hand.
                                        > It is right that you point out the decision to move the office of the
                                        > Russia
                                        > travellers (rysslandsfararnas kontor) 1293 was just a decision. Ingvar
                                        > Andersson in Swedish Encyclopaedia (article on the word HANSAN)
                                        > states that
                                        > Visby fate was sealed as the loser in this power struggle when this
                                        > decision
                                        > was taken. Ingvar Andersson might be and old reference but I am quite
                                        > sure
                                        > he has got it right. He is, as you well know, kept in the highest
                                        > regard,
                                        > among Swedish historians.
                                        > Concerning "the Gunpowder Tower" (Kruttornet) it is the name that is
                                        > used to
                                        > day. That is the name you find on maps telling you were it is. It
                                        > was, once,
                                        > called the "Torres lambitus", the Lamb tower.

                                        Wilhelm,
                                        Torres lambitus means "The tower that is licked by water"
                                        It was located at the northern entrance to the harbour where the ships
                                        left the harbour.
                                        At the southern entrace was the tower "Turris fluviatilis"

                                        Tore


                                        > It was the correct name.
                                        > Kruttornet is the correct name.
                                        >
                                        > Wilhelm




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • OSCAR HERRERA
                                        thattei alls god ist. auk weis skuld gamelid in gutrazda. Tore Gannholm wrote: Wilhelm, You are quite correct that we must see the history
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Nov 25, 2004
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                                          thattei alls god ist. auk weis skuld gamelid in gutrazda.

                                          Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
                                          Wilhelm,
                                          You are quite correct that we must see the history from more sides.
                                          L�beck was the Deutsche Hanse in the 15th century. From German point of
                                          view and especially with the contribution of R�rig this is the Hanse
                                          and the historian have projected the history backwards.
                                          This is very common.
                                          I attended a Hanse symposium in L�beck some years back and brought up
                                          the background to the Hanse. Most scolars there had suppressed it or
                                          were unaware of it as it did not fit into their picture.
                                          However when we discussed the matter they agreed that the Gotlandic
                                          involvement in the early Baltic trade was gigantic and that the
                                          Westphalians had broken into that trade by settleling in the newly
                                          formed village of L�beck and after the Artlenburg peace between
                                          Heinrich L�we and Gotland in 1161 started to settle in Visby and
                                          forming "universitatem communium mercatorun".

                                          When I started researching the history of Gotland the mainstream was
                                          100% the Swedish view as they were the winners after annexing Gotland
                                          in 1679.

                                          Today the Gotlandic side of the history is accepted even by most Swedes.



                                          On Nov 24, 2004, at 3:01 PM, WILHELM OTTO wrote:

                                          >
                                          > Dear Dirk and Francisc.
                                          > I note that Dirk refers to an earlier discussion with Tore about
                                          > Hansa. I
                                          > only have followed the list for a year or so, and did not know about
                                          > this.
                                          > Sorry.
                                          > Most of our knowledge, and especially scientific knowledge, is
                                          > mainstream.
                                          > Social communication would not work otherwise. But as our knowledge
                                          > is not
                                          > static, we have to try to expand it a little now and then. It was
                                          > what I
                                          > tried to do when I started the discussion with Terje. It was not a
                                          > planned
                                          > assault from my part. I just drifted into it.
                                          > But the thoughts I have hade for some time is that the victorious
                                          > writes the
                                          > history. The L�beck Germans were very successful for a long time. And
                                          > the
                                          > Baltic trade is old. Kjell Kumlien points out that the Danes plans
                                          > for an
                                          > emporium were lost 1227 in a battle at "Bornhoeved".


                                          It is north to Hamburg.

                                          > Does that mean
                                          > Bornholm? From around 1000, when Canute became the absolute power in
                                          > Scandinavia until then the Danes had an upper hand. There are a lot
                                          > of St
                                          > Canute and St. Hans guilds and their churches around.
                                          >
                                          > This is not enough to make a forceful argument, but a tentative
                                          > question if
                                          > anyone may see a pattern I am grasping for. Sometime it is mainstream
                                          > to
                                          > identify a loser's history as well as the victors�!
                                          > Wilhelm
                                          >

                                          Tore



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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