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Wanna share your ambitions and intenstions?

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  • Fredrik
    Hi! I guess everyone here have some intentions and reasons why you wanna learn gothic. One could be a general interest in languages and specially in gothic,
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 2, 2006
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      Hi!

      I guess everyone here have some intentions and reasons why you wanna
      learn gothic. One could be a general interest in languages and
      specially in gothic, but why is that?

      Different from other languages like english, german and spanish which
      people learn (mostly) because it could be useful in their work.
      Gothic is not that useful, coz nobody uses it.

      So why do you wanna learn it/did you learn it?
      Was it maybe because you wanna know how to speak it, of some reason
      or was it coz you wanna understand germanic hostory more??

      Myself I have changed my reasons during the time. First of all I have
      a interest in languages and especially in germanic ones. When I
      first, long ago, found out that there was a third branch of the
      germanic family, the eastern this become my main interest, so I began
      to study it as much as possible. First just to learn a little about
      it and see what this east germanic branch was like, and what was
      different between this and the west and noth germanic branches.

      Later I got a book with some basic grammar, a tiny dictionary and
      some text samples from the bible. Since that time I have been trying
      to learn gothic. Mostly when it comes to understanding those texts.
      It's kinda hard to learn speaking it when it lacks so much (attested)
      words.

      Do you also wanna share your ambitions and dreams/thoughts?

      Mine is to learn to speak gothic fluently and with a much better
      pronunciation then I have now. (It's still a long way to go...my
      grammar kinda sucks for now). This means that my vocabulary has to
      expand but also that the total gothic vocabulary has to that too.
      That's why I'm tryin to collect neologisms in a dictionary. My
      present goal is to reach 30 000 words, which is the average number of
      words is a pocket dictionary.
      I don't think it's total necessary that all these neologisms is
      standard for all gothic speakers, if some one like to use other words
      I think thats OK. For example we can say that I prefer a puristic
      vocabulary so a word like republic should be thiudawaihts, but if
      some one like raípubleik (to remind of other germanic languages) or
      smth like that...go for it.

      My dreams and (utopic) thought is that I should be able to use it in
      daily speech. For that I probably need some one or two in my life
      that also know how to speak it, (and that's not like it today).

      I think it would be interesting to know a little about you and what's
      on your mind about all this...so plz share your thought.

      /Fredrik
    • OSCAR HERRERA
      i agree with all that you said.....a national revival is needed...weis skuld alla distaida gutrazda.....ulfila gaf unsara tho mahtiega du anastodja gutrazda
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 2, 2006
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        i agree with all that you said.....a national revival is needed...weis skuld alla distaida gutrazda.....ulfila gaf unsara tho mahtiega du anastodja gutrazda aftra......is gaskeirandan fram tho boko xristana ist tho luknith faur tho andawairth.....oscar

        Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi!

        I guess everyone here have some intentions and reasons why you wanna
        learn gothic. One could be a general interest in languages and
        specially in gothic, but why is that?

        Different from other languages like english, german and spanish which
        people learn (mostly) because it could be useful in their work.
        Gothic is not that useful, coz nobody uses it.

        So why do you wanna learn it/did you learn it?
        Was it maybe because you wanna know how to speak it, of some reason
        or was it coz you wanna understand germanic hostory more??

        Myself I have changed my reasons during the time. First of all I have
        a interest in languages and especially in germanic ones. When I
        first, long ago, found out that there was a third branch of the
        germanic family, the eastern this become my main interest, so I began
        to study it as much as possible. First just to learn a little about
        it and see what this east germanic branch was like, and what was
        different between this and the west and noth germanic branches.

        Later I got a book with some basic grammar, a tiny dictionary and
        some text samples from the bible. Since that time I have been trying
        to learn gothic. Mostly when it comes to understanding those texts.
        It's kinda hard to learn speaking it when it lacks so much (attested)
        words.

        Do you also wanna share your ambitions and dreams/thoughts?

        Mine is to learn to speak gothic fluently and with a much better
        pronunciation then I have now. (It's still a long way to go...my
        grammar kinda sucks for now). This means that my vocabulary has to
        expand but also that the total gothic vocabulary has to that too.
        That's why I'm tryin to collect neologisms in a dictionary. My
        present goal is to reach 30 000 words, which is the average number of
        words is a pocket dictionary.
        I don't think it's total necessary that all these neologisms is
        standard for all gothic speakers, if some one like to use other words
        I think thats OK. For example we can say that I prefer a puristic
        vocabulary so a word like republic should be thiudawaihts, but if
        some one like raípubleik (to remind of other germanic languages) or
        smth like that...go for it.

        My dreams and (utopic) thought is that I should be able to use it in
        daily speech. For that I probably need some one or two in my life
        that also know how to speak it, (and that's not like it today).

        I think it would be interesting to know a little about you and what's
        on your mind about all this...so plz share your thought.

        /Fredrik





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      • llama_nom
        I have an ambition to work out some basic things about Gothic word order, which isn t so easy, because Gothic Bible is in most ways a word for word translation
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 12, 2006
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          I have an ambition to work out some basic things about Gothic word
          order, which isn't so easy, because Gothic Bible is in most ways a
          word for word translation from the Greek, so you have to look out
          for those specific ways in which it differs. It's also complicated
          by the fact that the exact text of the Greek original that it was
          based on is not known. Wilhelm Streitberg printed a reconstructed
          version of the Greek, which appears at the Wulfila Project site and
          at TITUS, but very often other Greek versions offer a better match
          for the Gothic, so these have to be ckecked too. Useful are regular
          deviations, such as 'iþ' almost always being placed first in the
          clause, in contrast to Greek DE, which comes second. Likewise
          Go. 'unte' for Gk. GAR. Also where Gothic needs two or more words
          to translate a single Greek word, although even here you have to be
          careful because given half a chance the Gothic will imitate the
          order of morphemes in the Greek word! Occasional and arbitrary
          differences are always suspect, especially where they can be
          paralleled elsewhere in the Greek. Modern researchers are sometimes
          a bit erratic about this, but really you have to be strict in what
          evidence is allowed, otherwise there's no way of establishing what
          is a genuine Gothic usage, and what is really a feature of Greek
          syntax.

          It's fiddly and time-consuming work, and short of more texts being
          discovered, there'll always be mysteries. But the payoff is a
          glimpse into the syntax of an early Germanic language, in some ways
          like its later kin, in other ways intriguingly different. I'd also
          like to learn more about syntactical theory, because this could
          offer a way of deducing generalised rules from the scant evidence.
          But it's important to establish what that evidence is first before
          resorting to theory.

          This had impications for anyone who wants to write or speak in a
          reconstructed Gothic. I think it would be good to establish all
          that can be established about the historical language, otherwise any
          reconstruction would tend to take the form of people expressing
          their thoughts in modern ways but just using Gothic words, whereas a
          language is more than just vocabulary. But then any living laguage
          is going to develop in its own way in any case, so maybe this
          wouldn't seem so important to other people.

          I also have a Secret Plan to write something on pronunciation.
          Having read (and ranted at!) the rather chaotic and contradictory
          Wikipedia entry a couple of months back, and then this new Gothic
          Online Course, I've finally been galled into starting a file on the
          matter. That could take ages too, but I'm concentrating to begin
          with on the thorny issue of <ai> and <au>. Again, a lot of problems
          will never be solved, but I reckon I can narrow down the
          possibilities a bit with logic. For example, some scolars have
          suggested that each digraph stood for a single phoneme, but the loss
          of final inflectional -s only after a short syllable implies that
          <ai> and <au> probably had both short and long variants. Loanwords
          and the spelling of personal names in Latin and Greek texts suggests
          that the old Germanic diphthings were preserved well after Wulfila's
          time in some dialects, but lost in others, though it may not be
          possible to make a simple division between "Visigoths"
          and "Ostrogoths" on this point.




          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi!
          >
          > I guess everyone here have some intentions and reasons why you
          wanna
          > learn gothic. One could be a general interest in languages and
          > specially in gothic, but why is that?
          >
          > Different from other languages like english, german and spanish
          which
          > people learn (mostly) because it could be useful in their work.
          > Gothic is not that useful, coz nobody uses it.
          >
          > So why do you wanna learn it/did you learn it?
          > Was it maybe because you wanna know how to speak it, of some
          reason
          > or was it coz you wanna understand germanic hostory more??
          >
          > Myself I have changed my reasons during the time. First of all I
          have
          > a interest in languages and especially in germanic ones. When I
          > first, long ago, found out that there was a third branch of the
          > germanic family, the eastern this become my main interest, so I
          began
          > to study it as much as possible. First just to learn a little
          about
          > it and see what this east germanic branch was like, and what was
          > different between this and the west and noth germanic branches.
          >
          > Later I got a book with some basic grammar, a tiny dictionary and
          > some text samples from the bible. Since that time I have been
          trying
          > to learn gothic. Mostly when it comes to understanding those texts.
          > It's kinda hard to learn speaking it when it lacks so much
          (attested)
          > words.
          >
          > Do you also wanna share your ambitions and dreams/thoughts?
          >
          > Mine is to learn to speak gothic fluently and with a much better
          > pronunciation then I have now. (It's still a long way to go...my
          > grammar kinda sucks for now). This means that my vocabulary has to
          > expand but also that the total gothic vocabulary has to that too.
          > That's why I'm tryin to collect neologisms in a dictionary. My
          > present goal is to reach 30 000 words, which is the average number
          of
          > words is a pocket dictionary.
          > I don't think it's total necessary that all these neologisms is
          > standard for all gothic speakers, if some one like to use other
          words
          > I think thats OK. For example we can say that I prefer a puristic
          > vocabulary so a word like republic should be thiudawaihts, but if
          > some one like raí°µbleik (to remind of other germanic languages) or
          > smth like that...go for it.
          >
          > My dreams and (utopic) thought is that I should be able to use it
          in
          > daily speech. For that I probably need some one or two in my life
          > that also know how to speak it, (and that's not like it today).
          >
          > I think it would be interesting to know a little about you and
          what's
          > on your mind about all this...so plz share your thought.
          >
          > /Fredrik
          >
        • akoddsson
          ... reconstructed Gothic. I think it would be good to establish all that can be established about the historical language, otherwise any reconstruction would
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 13, 2006
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            > This had impications for anyone who wants to write or speak in a
            reconstructed Gothic. I think it would be good to establish all
            that can be established about the historical language, otherwise any
            reconstruction would tend to take the form of people expressing
            their thoughts in modern ways but just using Gothic words, whereas a
            language is more than just vocabulary.

            In my opinion, thou hast hit the nail on the head here. What is most
            important is understanding and reconstructing the historical tongue
            itself. Inventing new words for things non-existed in the historical
            language may be fun, but reconstructing the historical vocabulary is
            much more important. Essentially, learning an histrical tongue has a
            lot to do with learning historical words ;) In the case of Gothic,
            so much of the basic vocabulary has been lost (i.e. is unattested)
            that in order for the language to be usable, vocabulary must be re-
            constructed. This is where prioritization needs to occur if Gothic
            is to approach usablity in modern times, whether as a purley written
            or spoken langauge. There is little talk or writing if no one knows
            what words to use. Furthermore, a focus on historical vocabulary is
            consistent with typical reasons why a person might choose to study
            Gothic, such as understanding an early germanic tongue. Thus, words
            like *grôneis (green) and *aihvs (horse) or much more important than
            new words for democracy or the stock market, for example. Likewise,
            historical syntax is what we should be after, rather than learning
            how to use Gothic words with foreign syntax. These two points are
            especially relevant in the case of Gothic, I think, as attestation
            of syntax is through a translation of a foreign book (rather than
            via the speech of a native speaker) and attestation of vocabulary
            largely limited to words (some even foreign) needed to translated a
            book containing culture, concepts, geograpy, history, etc. which
            have no roots in native Gothic culture. Thus, the syntax and choice
            of words may or may not closely reflect native speech. What is then
            needed is a focus on native speech, in as much as this is possible
            with a dead language - making a concerted effort to reconstuct what,
            in all likelihood, was the vocabulary and manner of daily speech.
            Now, if this sounds easy, try the following exercise and ask which
            of the two you found easier:

            Translate in Gothic:
            1. Hello, John. It is good to see you. How have you been?
            2. ME words 'casino' and 'telephone' (using Gothic roots)

            Now, number 2 could prove a fun competition for those of us who
            perhaps think we know what we are doing, but it is not likely going
            to help get gothic back on its feet. Number one, on the other hand,
            poses deeply challenging problems for us, as simply translating the
            English words is out of the question. Simply put, we know that they
            do not represent Gothic syntax or vocabulary.

            Regards,
            Konrad

            > I also have a Secret Plan to write something on pronunciation.
            Having read (and ranted at!) the rather chaotic and contradictory
            Wikipedia entry a couple of months back, and then this new Gothic
            Online Course, I've finally been galled into starting a file on the
            matter. That could take ages too, but I'm concentrating to begin
            with on the thorny issue of <ai> and <au>. Again, a lot of problems
            will never be solved, but I reckon I can narrow down the
            possibilities a bit with logic. For example, some scolars have
            suggested that each digraph stood for a single phoneme, but the loss
            of final inflectional -s only after a short syllable implies that
            <ai> and <au> probably had both short and long variants. Loanwords
            and the spelling of personal names in Latin and Greek texts suggests
            that the old Germanic diphthings were preserved well after Wulfila's
            time in some dialects, but lost in others, though it may not be
            possible to make a simple division between "Visigoths"
            and "Ostrogoths" on this point.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi!
            > >
            > > I guess everyone here have some intentions and reasons why you
            > wanna
            > > learn gothic. One could be a general interest in languages and
            > > specially in gothic, but why is that?
            > >
            > > Different from other languages like english, german and spanish
            > which
            > > people learn (mostly) because it could be useful in their work.
            > > Gothic is not that useful, coz nobody uses it.
            > >
            > > So why do you wanna learn it/did you learn it?
            > > Was it maybe because you wanna know how to speak it, of some
            > reason
            > > or was it coz you wanna understand germanic hostory more??
            > >
            > > Myself I have changed my reasons during the time. First of all I
            > have
            > > a interest in languages and especially in germanic ones. When I
            > > first, long ago, found out that there was a third branch of the
            > > germanic family, the eastern this become my main interest, so I
            > began
            > > to study it as much as possible. First just to learn a little
            > about
            > > it and see what this east germanic branch was like, and what was
            > > different between this and the west and noth germanic branches.
            > >
            > > Later I got a book with some basic grammar, a tiny dictionary
            and
            > > some text samples from the bible. Since that time I have been
            > trying
            > > to learn gothic. Mostly when it comes to understanding those
            texts.
            > > It's kinda hard to learn speaking it when it lacks so much
            > (attested)
            > > words.
            > >
            > > Do you also wanna share your ambitions and dreams/thoughts?
            > >
            > > Mine is to learn to speak gothic fluently and with a much better
            > > pronunciation then I have now. (It's still a long way to go...my
            > > grammar kinda sucks for now). This means that my vocabulary has
            to
            > > expand but also that the total gothic vocabulary has to that
            too.
            > > That's why I'm tryin to collect neologisms in a dictionary. My
            > > present goal is to reach 30 000 words, which is the average
            number
            > of
            > > words is a pocket dictionary.
            > > I don't think it's total necessary that all these neologisms is
            > > standard for all gothic speakers, if some one like to use other
            > words
            > > I think thats OK. For example we can say that I prefer a
            puristic
            > > vocabulary so a word like republic should be thiudawaihts, but
            if
            > > some one like raí°µbleik (to remind of other germanic languages)
            or
            > > smth like that...go for it.
            > >
            > > My dreams and (utopic) thought is that I should be able to use
            it
            > in
            > > daily speech. For that I probably need some one or two in my
            life
            > > that also know how to speak it, (and that's not like it today).
            > >
            > > I think it would be interesting to know a little about you and
            > what's
            > > on your mind about all this...so plz share your thought.
            > >
            > > /Fredrik
            > >
            >
          • OSCAR HERRERA
            language is language.....i mean english is probably spoiken different today than say 1000 yrs ago.../.we can only go word for word...meaning sometimes a
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 13, 2006
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              language is language.....i mean english is probably spoiken different today than say 1000 yrs ago.../.we can only go word for word...meaning sometimes a translation in english might be helpful when speaking in gothic.....or whatever language were using besides english....i also have talkin to people in northern spain and some in andorra still speak gothic and what is left of it....oscar

              akoddsson <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote: > This had impications for anyone who wants to write or speak in a
              reconstructed Gothic. I think it would be good to establish all
              that can be established about the historical language, otherwise any
              reconstruction would tend to take the form of people expressing
              their thoughts in modern ways but just using Gothic words, whereas a
              language is more than just vocabulary.

              In my opinion, thou hast hit the nail on the head here. What is most
              important is understanding and reconstructing the historical tongue
              itself. Inventing new words for things non-existed in the historical
              language may be fun, but reconstructing the historical vocabulary is
              much more important. Essentially, learning an histrical tongue has a
              lot to do with learning historical words ;) In the case of Gothic,
              so much of the basic vocabulary has been lost (i.e. is unattested)
              that in order for the language to be usable, vocabulary must be re-
              constructed. This is where prioritization needs to occur if Gothic
              is to approach usablity in modern times, whether as a purley written
              or spoken langauge. There is little talk or writing if no one knows
              what words to use. Furthermore, a focus on historical vocabulary is
              consistent with typical reasons why a person might choose to study
              Gothic, such as understanding an early germanic tongue. Thus, words
              like *grôneis (green) and *aihvs (horse) or much more important than
              new words for democracy or the stock market, for example. Likewise,
              historical syntax is what we should be after, rather than learning
              how to use Gothic words with foreign syntax. These two points are
              especially relevant in the case of Gothic, I think, as attestation
              of syntax is through a translation of a foreign book (rather than
              via the speech of a native speaker) and attestation of vocabulary
              largely limited to words (some even foreign) needed to translated a
              book containing culture, concepts, geograpy, history, etc. which
              have no roots in native Gothic culture. Thus, the syntax and choice
              of words may or may not closely reflect native speech. What is then
              needed is a focus on native speech, in as much as this is possible
              with a dead language - making a concerted effort to reconstuct what,
              in all likelihood, was the vocabulary and manner of daily speech.
              Now, if this sounds easy, try the following exercise and ask which
              of the two you found easier:

              Translate in Gothic:
              1. Hello, John. It is good to see you. How have you been?
              2. ME words 'casino' and 'telephone' (using Gothic roots)

              Now, number 2 could prove a fun competition for those of us who
              perhaps think we know what we are doing, but it is not likely going
              to help get gothic back on its feet. Number one, on the other hand,
              poses deeply challenging problems for us, as simply translating the
              English words is out of the question. Simply put, we know that they
              do not represent Gothic syntax or vocabulary.

              Regards,
              Konrad

              > I also have a Secret Plan to write something on pronunciation.
              Having read (and ranted at!) the rather chaotic and contradictory
              Wikipedia entry a couple of months back, and then this new Gothic
              Online Course, I've finally been galled into starting a file on the
              matter. That could take ages too, but I'm concentrating to begin
              with on the thorny issue of and . Again, a lot of problems
              will never be solved, but I reckon I can narrow down the
              possibilities a bit with logic. For example, some scolars have
              suggested that each digraph stood for a single phoneme, but the loss
              of final inflectional -s only after a short syllable implies that
              and probably had both short and long variants. Loanwords
              and the spelling of personal names in Latin and Greek texts suggests
              that the old Germanic diphthings were preserved well after Wulfila's
              time in some dialects, but lost in others, though it may not be
              possible to make a simple division between "Visigoths"
              and "Ostrogoths" on this point.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi!
              > >
              > > I guess everyone here have some intentions and reasons why you
              > wanna
              > > learn gothic. One could be a general interest in languages and
              > > specially in gothic, but why is that?
              > >
              > > Different from other languages like english, german and spanish
              > which
              > > people learn (mostly) because it could be useful in their work.
              > > Gothic is not that useful, coz nobody uses it.
              > >
              > > So why do you wanna learn it/did you learn it?
              > > Was it maybe because you wanna know how to speak it, of some
              > reason
              > > or was it coz you wanna understand germanic hostory more??
              > >
              > > Myself I have changed my reasons during the time. First of all I
              > have
              > > a interest in languages and especially in germanic ones. When I
              > > first, long ago, found out that there was a third branch of the
              > > germanic family, the eastern this become my main interest, so I
              > began
              > > to study it as much as possible. First just to learn a little
              > about
              > > it and see what this east germanic branch was like, and what was
              > > different between this and the west and noth germanic branches.
              > >
              > > Later I got a book with some basic grammar, a tiny dictionary
              and
              > > some text samples from the bible. Since that time I have been
              > trying
              > > to learn gothic. Mostly when it comes to understanding those
              texts.
              > > It's kinda hard to learn speaking it when it lacks so much
              > (attested)
              > > words.
              > >
              > > Do you also wanna share your ambitions and dreams/thoughts?
              > >
              > > Mine is to learn to speak gothic fluently and with a much better
              > > pronunciation then I have now. (It's still a long way to go...my
              > > grammar kinda sucks for now). This means that my vocabulary has
              to
              > > expand but also that the total gothic vocabulary has to that
              too.
              > > That's why I'm tryin to collect neologisms in a dictionary. My
              > > present goal is to reach 30 000 words, which is the average
              number
              > of
              > > words is a pocket dictionary.
              > > I don't think it's total necessary that all these neologisms is
              > > standard for all gothic speakers, if some one like to use other
              > words
              > > I think thats OK. For example we can say that I prefer a
              puristic
              > > vocabulary so a word like republic should be thiudawaihts, but
              if
              > > some one like raí°µbleik (to remind of other germanic languages)
              or
              > > smth like that...go for it.
              > >
              > > My dreams and (utopic) thought is that I should be able to use
              it
              > in
              > > daily speech. For that I probably need some one or two in my
              life
              > > that also know how to speak it, (and that's not like it today).
              > >
              > > I think it would be interesting to know a little about you and
              > what's
              > > on your mind about all this...so plz share your thought.
              > >
              > > /Fredrik
              > >
              >






              You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
              Yahoo! Groups Links










              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • llama_nom
              ... I think we re safe with *aihvs, but green could be either a ja- stem (*groneis) or an i-stem (grons). The etymological dictionaries I ve seen tend to
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 13, 2006
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                > like *grí±ºíµ©s (green) and *aihvs (horse)

                I think we're safe with *aihvs, but "green" could be either a ja-
                stem (*groneis) or an i-stem (grons). The etymological dictionaries
                I've seen tend to reconstrcut a ja-stem, perhaps because that's the
                more common declension and without evidence from Gothic or early
                runic inscriptions, there's no indication of whether it was even an
                i-stem.



                > Translate in Gothic:
                > 1. Hello, John. It is good to see you. How have you been?
                > 2. ME words 'casino' and 'telephone' (using Gothic roots)


                Ah, maybe one day all our fancy learning will help us to solve this
                embarrassingly simple, but very difficult problem. This goes beyond
                just the 'easy' problem of vocabulary, and the nightmarishly tricky
                business of syntax, and gets us into the outright fiendish realm of
                idioms and usage and how the language actually behave when it was
                alive an on its feet in a real functioning society about which we
                still have so much to learn. The Gothic Bible isn't much help here;
                we could hunt for situations in the literature of the other early
                germanic languages, especially Old English and Old Norse, where
                people meet who already know each other, and what they say. Of
                course, the style of speech there might be rather formal, or even in
                poetry, so we'd have to take that into account. But if we found
                enough examples we could maybe begin to get a feel for the sort of
                conventional exchange that might be expected to take place. I think
                the sagas might call this a 'fagnaðarfundr' "joyful meeting",
                sometimes with heart-melting understatement. A quick rumage on
                Google turns up a few happy moments, although not much non-context-
                specific small talk... Oh well, a good excuse for more reading. In
                Old English, Ælfric's Colloquy has some interesting informal
                conversation, but limited in topic.

                As for the easy question, I'm sure suggestions have already been
                made for telephone, so I'll propose 'hlaut-hus' "casino", by analogy
                with 'gudhus' and 'faurhah'. On the ommission of the stem vowel in
                these compounds, Bennett suggested that the 'h' may have been
                dropped, causing the vowel to go too, to avoid hiatus (cf. also the
                spelling 'freijhals').

                Anyway, important is what we chose to be important, so I won't say
                the things that most interest me are more important than what
                interests someone else, just what most occupies the Gothic sections
                of my brain tonight. I think there's a lot still to be learnt from
                the surviving evidence for Gothic which can make our imaginative
                reconstructions more accurate. Basic stuff like: what exactly is
                the status of 'aspect' in Gothic verbs? What word orders were most
                likely? What word orders were permitted in natural speech? What
                constraints were placed in freedom of word order? What rhetorical
                and emphatic effects were gained from particular changes in the
                unmarked word order? What are the differences between the rules or
                tendencies affecting the placement of nouns from those affecting
                pronouns? What contexts triggered V2 (verb second word order); was
                it always triggered in such contexts; which contexts was it optional
                in; how did Gothic resemble Old English was it in this respect, and
                how did it differ? How do main clauses differ from subordinate
                clauses, for example in permitting V2, and in the placement of
                adverbs, etc.? What rules govern the use of reflexives? What rules
                govern the placement of pronouns? Does it make sense to talk about
                oblique subjects in Gothic? What is the full story about case
                attraction of relative pronouns? What is the full story with
                passives of verbs that govern oblique cases; why are they sometimes
                oblique with impersonal verbs as in other Germanic languages, but
                othertimes nominative with the verb inflected for number? Can all
                such instances be attributed to a middle, rather than a strictly
                passive meaning? Or is this a piece of Gothic 'nominative
                sickness'? And such, and such, and such.





                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > > This had impications for anyone who wants to write or speak in a
                > reconstructed Gothic. I think it would be good to establish all
                > that can be established about the historical language, otherwise
                any
                > reconstruction would tend to take the form of people expressing
                > their thoughts in modern ways but just using Gothic words, whereas
                a
                > language is more than just vocabulary.
                >
                > In my opinion, thou hast hit the nail on the head here. What is
                most
                > important is understanding and reconstructing the historical
                tongue
                > itself. Inventing new words for things non-existed in the
                historical
                > language may be fun, but reconstructing the historical vocabulary
                is
                > much more important. Essentially, learning an histrical tongue has
                a
                > lot to do with learning historical words ;) In the case of Gothic,
                > so much of the basic vocabulary has been lost (i.e. is unattested)
                > that in order for the language to be usable, vocabulary must be re-
                > constructed. This is where prioritization needs to occur if Gothic
                > is to approach usablity in modern times, whether as a purley
                written
                > or spoken langauge. There is little talk or writing if no one
                knows
                > what words to use. Furthermore, a focus on historical vocabulary
                is
                > consistent with typical reasons why a person might choose to study
                > Gothic, such as understanding an early germanic tongue. Thus,
                words
                > like *grí±ºíµ©s (green) and *aihvs (horse) or much more important than
                > new words for democracy or the stock market, for example.
                Likewise,
                > historical syntax is what we should be after, rather than learning
                > how to use Gothic words with foreign syntax. These two points are
                > especially relevant in the case of Gothic, I think, as attestation
                > of syntax is through a translation of a foreign book (rather than
                > via the speech of a native speaker) and attestation of vocabulary
                > largely limited to words (some even foreign) needed to translated
                a
                > book containing culture, concepts, geograpy, history, etc. which
                > have no roots in native Gothic culture. Thus, the syntax and
                choice
                > of words may or may not closely reflect native speech. What is
                then
                > needed is a focus on native speech, in as much as this is possible
                > with a dead language - making a concerted effort to reconstuct
                what,
                > in all likelihood, was the vocabulary and manner of daily speech.
                > Now, if this sounds easy, try the following exercise and ask which
                > of the two you found easier:
                >
                > Translate in Gothic:
                > 1. Hello, John. It is good to see you. How have you been?
                > 2. ME words 'casino' and 'telephone' (using Gothic roots)
                >
                > Now, number 2 could prove a fun competition for those of us who
                > perhaps think we know what we are doing, but it is not likely
                going
                > to help get gothic back on its feet. Number one, on the other
                hand,
                > poses deeply challenging problems for us, as simply translating
                the
                > English words is out of the question. Simply put, we know that
                they
                > do not represent Gothic syntax or vocabulary.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Konrad
              • Fredrik
                I think you re right when you say it is important to recunstruct those words which probably existed but ain t attested, before creating words for things that
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 14, 2006
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                  I think you're right when you say it is important to recunstruct
                  those words which probably existed but ain't attested, before
                  creating words for things that we know didn't exist at that time.

                  But for me it's equally important to cunstruct both kinda words.
                  To be able to use a language in daily speech today we must have all
                  those words that existed at that time and the most of thw words of
                  modern stuff.
                  So a neologism (according to me) could be both *lahs and e.g.
                  fairrasiuns. Even though lahs might have been an existing word and
                  fairrasiuns not.

                  Syntax is nothing I am that good at so I try to learn what you guys
                  find out.

                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > > This had impications for anyone who wants to write or speak in a
                  > reconstructed Gothic. I think it would be good to establish all
                  > that can be established about the historical language, otherwise
                  any
                  > reconstruction would tend to take the form of people expressing
                  > their thoughts in modern ways but just using Gothic words, whereas
                  a
                  > language is more than just vocabulary.
                  >
                  > In my opinion, thou hast hit the nail on the head here. What is
                  most
                  > important is understanding and reconstructing the historical tongue
                  > itself. Inventing new words for things non-existed in the
                  historical
                  > language may be fun, but reconstructing the historical vocabulary
                  is
                  > much more important. Essentially, learning an histrical tongue has
                  a
                  > lot to do with learning historical words ;) In the case of Gothic,
                  > so much of the basic vocabulary has been lost (i.e. is unattested)
                  > that in order for the language to be usable, vocabulary must be re-
                  > constructed. This is where prioritization needs to occur if Gothic
                  > is to approach usablity in modern times, whether as a purley
                  written
                  > or spoken langauge. There is little talk or writing if no one knows
                  > what words to use. Furthermore, a focus on historical vocabulary is
                  > consistent with typical reasons why a person might choose to study
                  > Gothic, such as understanding an early germanic tongue. Thus, words
                  > like *grôneis (green) and *aihvs (horse) or much more important
                  than
                  > new words for democracy or the stock market, for example. Likewise,
                  > historical syntax is what we should be after, rather than learning
                  > how to use Gothic words with foreign syntax. These two points are
                  > especially relevant in the case of Gothic, I think, as attestation
                  > of syntax is through a translation of a foreign book (rather than
                  > via the speech of a native speaker) and attestation of vocabulary
                  > largely limited to words (some even foreign) needed to translated a
                  > book containing culture, concepts, geograpy, history, etc. which
                  > have no roots in native Gothic culture. Thus, the syntax and choice
                  > of words may or may not closely reflect native speech. What is then
                  > needed is a focus on native speech, in as much as this is possible
                  > with a dead language - making a concerted effort to reconstuct
                  what,
                  > in all likelihood, was the vocabulary and manner of daily speech.
                  > Now, if this sounds easy, try the following exercise and ask which
                  > of the two you found easier:
                  >
                  > Translate in Gothic:
                  > 1. Hello, John. It is good to see you. How have you been?
                  > 2. ME words 'casino' and 'telephone' (using Gothic roots)
                  >
                  > Now, number 2 could prove a fun competition for those of us who
                  > perhaps think we know what we are doing, but it is not likely going
                  > to help get gothic back on its feet. Number one, on the other hand,
                  > poses deeply challenging problems for us, as simply translating the
                  > English words is out of the question. Simply put, we know that they
                  > do not represent Gothic syntax or vocabulary.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Konrad
                  >
                • thiudans
                  Hails! Thought I would bring back a piece of history (as I was perusing the archives). I wonder how you are doing on these goals, not as a matter of control,
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 19, 2007
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                    Hails!

                    Thought I would bring back a piece of history (as I was perusing the
                    archives). I wonder how you are doing on these goals, not as a matter
                    of control, but purely because I am interested in the results of these
                    efforts!

                    Cheers,
                    Th.

                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I have an ambition to work out some basic things about Gothic word
                    > order, which isn't so easy, because Gothic Bible is in most ways a
                    > word for word translation from the Greek, so you have to look out
                    > for those specific ways in which it differs. It's also complicated
                    > by the fact that the exact text of the Greek original that it was
                    > based on is not known. Wilhelm Streitberg printed a reconstructed
                    > version of the Greek, which appears at the Wulfila Project site and
                    > at TITUS, but very often other Greek versions offer a better match
                    > for the Gothic, so these have to be ckecked too. Useful are regular
                    > deviations, such as 'iþ' almost always being placed first in the
                    > clause, in contrast to Greek DE, which comes second. Likewise
                    > Go. 'unte' for Gk. GAR. Also where Gothic needs two or more words
                    > to translate a single Greek word, although even here you have to be
                    > careful because given half a chance the Gothic will imitate the
                    > order of morphemes in the Greek word! Occasional and arbitrary
                    > differences are always suspect, especially where they can be
                    > paralleled elsewhere in the Greek. Modern researchers are sometimes
                    > a bit erratic about this, but really you have to be strict in what
                    > evidence is allowed, otherwise there's no way of establishing what
                    > is a genuine Gothic usage, and what is really a feature of Greek
                    > syntax.
                    >
                    > It's fiddly and time-consuming work, and short of more texts being
                    > discovered, there'll always be mysteries. But the payoff is a
                    > glimpse into the syntax of an early Germanic language, in some ways
                    > like its later kin, in other ways intriguingly different. I'd also
                    > like to learn more about syntactical theory, because this could
                    > offer a way of deducing generalised rules from the scant evidence.
                    > But it's important to establish what that evidence is first before
                    > resorting to theory.
                    >
                    > This had impications for anyone who wants to write or speak in a
                    > reconstructed Gothic. I think it would be good to establish all
                    > that can be established about the historical language, otherwise any
                    > reconstruction would tend to take the form of people expressing
                    > their thoughts in modern ways but just using Gothic words, whereas a
                    > language is more than just vocabulary. But then any living laguage
                    > is going to develop in its own way in any case, so maybe this
                    > wouldn't seem so important to other people.
                    >
                    > I also have a Secret Plan to write something on pronunciation.
                    > Having read (and ranted at!) the rather chaotic and contradictory
                    > Wikipedia entry a couple of months back, and then this new Gothic
                    > Online Course, I've finally been galled into starting a file on the
                    > matter. That could take ages too, but I'm concentrating to begin
                    > with on the thorny issue of <ai> and <au>. Again, a lot of problems
                    > will never be solved, but I reckon I can narrow down the
                    > possibilities a bit with logic. For example, some scolars have
                    > suggested that each digraph stood for a single phoneme, but the loss
                    > of final inflectional -s only after a short syllable implies that
                    > <ai> and <au> probably had both short and long variants. Loanwords
                    > and the spelling of personal names in Latin and Greek texts suggests
                    > that the old Germanic diphthings were preserved well after Wulfila's
                    > time in some dialects, but lost in others, though it may not be
                    > possible to make a simple division between "Visigoths"
                    > and "Ostrogoths" on this point.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi!
                    > >
                    > > I guess everyone here have some intentions and reasons why you
                    > wanna
                    > > learn gothic. One could be a general interest in languages and
                    > > specially in gothic, but why is that?
                    > >
                    > > Different from other languages like english, german and spanish
                    > which
                    > > people learn (mostly) because it could be useful in their work.
                    > > Gothic is not that useful, coz nobody uses it.
                    > >
                    > > So why do you wanna learn it/did you learn it?
                    > > Was it maybe because you wanna know how to speak it, of some
                    > reason
                    > > or was it coz you wanna understand germanic hostory more??
                    > >
                    > > Myself I have changed my reasons during the time. First of all I
                    > have
                    > > a interest in languages and especially in germanic ones. When I
                    > > first, long ago, found out that there was a third branch of the
                    > > germanic family, the eastern this become my main interest, so I
                    > began
                    > > to study it as much as possible. First just to learn a little
                    > about
                    > > it and see what this east germanic branch was like, and what was
                    > > different between this and the west and noth germanic branches.
                    > >
                    > > Later I got a book with some basic grammar, a tiny dictionary and
                    > > some text samples from the bible. Since that time I have been
                    > trying
                    > > to learn gothic. Mostly when it comes to understanding those texts.
                    > > It's kinda hard to learn speaking it when it lacks so much
                    > (attested)
                    > > words.
                    > >
                    > > Do you also wanna share your ambitions and dreams/thoughts?
                    > >
                    > > Mine is to learn to speak gothic fluently and with a much better
                    > > pronunciation then I have now. (It's still a long way to go...my
                    > > grammar kinda sucks for now). This means that my vocabulary has to
                    > > expand but also that the total gothic vocabulary has to that too.
                    > > That's why I'm tryin to collect neologisms in a dictionary. My
                    > > present goal is to reach 30 000 words, which is the average number
                    > of
                    > > words is a pocket dictionary.
                    > > I don't think it's total necessary that all these neologisms is
                    > > standard for all gothic speakers, if some one like to use other
                    > words
                    > > I think thats OK. For example we can say that I prefer a puristic
                    > > vocabulary so a word like republic should be thiudawaihts, but if
                    > > some one like raí°µbleik (to remind of other germanic languages) or
                    > > smth like that...go for it.
                    > >
                    > > My dreams and (utopic) thought is that I should be able to use it
                    > in
                    > > daily speech. For that I probably need some one or two in my life
                    > > that also know how to speak it, (and that's not like it today).
                    > >
                    > > I think it would be interesting to know a little about you and
                    > what's
                    > > on your mind about all this...so plz share your thought.
                    > >
                    > > /Fredrik
                    > >
                    >
                  • Justïn
                    Hails, Well, I d say my interest in Gothic [this is going to sound pathetic] started with my fascination with Tolkien and our shared interest in dead
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 19, 2007
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                      Hails,

                      Well, I'd say my interest in Gothic [this is going to sound pathetic]
                      started with my fascination with Tolkien and our shared interest in
                      dead languages. I think I failed to realise that one could actually
                      'learn' Gothic and Old English, and I chose to learn Gothic as it
                      seems to outdate Old English, Saxon, etc. Other than that, a
                      fascination with the ancient peoples and a desire to speak a language
                      so old, and the mere æsthetic appeal of the language while written and
                      the way it sounds.

                      My goal is to learn the language well enough to be able to freely
                      journal my thoughts and daily activities in it, and write poetry and
                      music in it, being able to contribute to a language that has only
                      relatively few speakers and literary pieces in it, aside from
                      Wulfila's and Tolien's, and now a few of our members'.

                      So far my goal has struggled for attention while earning my degrees,
                      but I like to think in terms of pursuing interests this group is an
                      inspiration to take my text with me and study whenever and wherever I
                      have the chance, though it's an awkward conversation starter when one
                      asks me what I'm reading...

                      I hope I am able to contribute to our attempts in resurrecting the
                      language, it seems I at least sparked a renewed interest in
                      neologisms, hopefully we can organise our efforts in a way that bears
                      fruition...and hopefully I am able to do more than simply spur on
                      those who are so far ahead of me their knowledge of linguistics and
                      etymologies.

                      Here's to hope!

                      -Justïn
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