Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [gothic-l] Re: New to the List, Learning Gothic

Expand Messages
  • mike r
    Greetings Francisc! Your input was most helpful. Thank you very much! Salutations! Mike ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 15, 2005
      Greetings Francisc!

      Your input was most helpful. Thank you very much!

      Salutations!

      Mike

      --- Francisc Czobor <fericzobor@...> wrote:

      > Hi Michael,
      >
      > welcome to the Gothic List!
      > Here you will find for sure people sharing your
      > interest, even
      > fascination, for the Gothic language.
      > Regarding the things that you find "confusing", they
      > are confusing
      > you just because you expect the Gothic to be a sort
      > of English in a
      > little bit different phonetic clothing. But no,
      > Gothic is not
      > English. It is a Germanic language indeed, but
      > structurally it stays
      > closer (from the modern Germanic languages) to
      > German and Icelandic
      > than to English.
      > So, for instance, Modern English uses a single form
      > of the definite
      > artice: "the", regardless gender, number and case,
      > unlike Old English
      > and the other Germanic languages, including Gothic.
      > "Sa" is the
      > Gothic definite article for masculine, singular,
      > nominative,
      > whereas "thai" is the definite article for
      > masculine, plural,
      > nominative.
      > "Do not" or "does not" are typical English
      > expressions, you won't
      > find anything similar in any other Germanic
      > language, including
      > Gothic. Thus, "the hound doesn't bite" is in Gothic
      > "The hound not
      > bite" (Sa hunds ni beitith). In German there is
      > still another
      > construction: "The hound bites not" (Der Hund beisst
      > nicht).
      > Regarding verb endings, Gothic has a conjugation
      > with different
      > endings for different persons and numbers; thus, "to
      > bite" in
      > indicative present is:
      > ik beita "I bite"
      > thu beitis "thou bite"
      > is/si/ita beitith "he/she/it bites"
      > wit beitos "we two bite"
      > jut beitats "you two bite"
      > weis beitan "we bite"
      > jus beitith "you bite"
      > eis/ijos/ija beitand "they bite".
      >
      > beitan is the infinitive form of the verb (like in
      > German beissen,
      > for instance, corresponding to the English "to
      > bite"); "beit" is just
      > a word root, it never occurs independently (i.e.
      > without any ending)
      > in Gothic.
      >
      > Good luck with your Gothic studies!
      >
      > Francisc
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Mike"
      > <raging_viking@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Greetings!
      > >
      > > I am new to the list and I joined because of my
      > research into the
      > > Gothic language. I think that it is a very
      > beautiful, fascinating,
      > and
      > > complex language and I am having alot of fun
      > learning it.
      > >
      > > I am amazed by how many modern english words can
      > be transmuted into
      > > Gothic with a high degree of accuracy, and I am
      > even taking some
      > > amusing liberties with it, for an example I turned
      > the word "jive"
      > > into a gothic equivalant: jeivan just by following
      > the rules of the
      > > ablaut (i turns into ei and the e at the end is
      > dropped and is
      > > replaced with -an).
      > >
      > > This is the very first language that I have ever
      > attempted outside
      > of
      > > English. Some of it is a bit confusing, for an
      > example, they use the
      > > word "the" in two different contextes, for an
      > example:
      > >
      > > Example of Sa used:
      > > Sa hunds ni beitith
      > > The hound [do]not bite.
      > >
      > > Example of Thai used:
      > > Thai wulfos beitand
      > > The wolves bite
      > >
      > > And if you look above, "ni" means "do not" or
      > "does not", yet the
      > word
      > > "does" is not in front of "ni"! Why is this?
      > >
      > > And for some reason, if the noun is singular, the
      > verb ends with -
      > ith,
      > > but if the noun being referred to is plural, the
      > verb ends with -
      > and.
      > > I am also wondering why the present singular
      > strong verb "beitan"
      > ends
      > > with -an, why not just "beit"?
      > >
      > > Just so many questions....I'm hoping that there
      > will be someone who
      > > will be willing to answer some of my questions.
      > >
      > > Salutations!
      > > Michael
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com
    • Neo Intelligencer
      Thank you for the great Tutorial, Francisc Czobor! Frohe Feiertage, Jeder! Lyckliga Ferier, Alla! Happy Holidays, Everyone! Sincerely, Neo Intelligencer
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 15, 2005
        Thank you for the great Tutorial, Francisc Czobor!

        Frohe Feiertage, Jeder!

        Lyckliga Ferier, Alla!

        Happy Holidays, Everyone!

        Sincerely,

        Neo Intelligencer


        Francisc Czobor <fericzobor@...> wrote:
        Hi Michael,

        welcome to the Gothic List!
        Here you will find for sure people sharing your interest, even
        fascination, for the Gothic language.
        Regarding the things that you find "confusing", they are confusing
        you just because you expect the Gothic to be a sort of English in a
        little bit different phonetic clothing. But no, Gothic is not
        English. It is a Germanic language indeed, but structurally it stays
        closer (from the modern Germanic languages) to German and Icelandic
        than to English.
        So, for instance, Modern English uses a single form of the definite
        artice: "the", regardless gender, number and case, unlike Old English
        and the other Germanic languages, including Gothic. "Sa" is the
        Gothic definite article for masculine, singular, nominative,
        whereas "thai" is the definite article for masculine, plural,
        nominative.
        "Do not" or "does not" are typical English expressions, you won't
        find anything similar in any other Germanic language, including
        Gothic. Thus, "the hound doesn't bite" is in Gothic "The hound not
        bite" (Sa hunds ni beitith). In German there is still another
        construction: "The hound bites not" (Der Hund beisst nicht).
        Regarding verb endings, Gothic has a conjugation with different
        endings for different persons and numbers; thus, "to bite" in
        indicative present is:
        ik beita "I bite"
        thu beitis "thou bite"
        is/si/ita beitith "he/she/it bites"
        wit beitos "we two bite"
        jut beitats "you two bite"
        weis beitan "we bite"
        jus beitith "you bite"
        eis/ijos/ija beitand "they bite".

        beitan is the infinitive form of the verb (like in German beissen,
        for instance, corresponding to the English "to bite"); "beit" is just
        a word root, it never occurs independently (i.e. without any ending)
        in Gothic.

        Good luck with your Gothic studies!

        Francisc

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <raging_viking@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings!
        >
        > I am new to the list and I joined because of my research into the
        > Gothic language. I think that it is a very beautiful, fascinating,
        and
        > complex language and I am having alot of fun learning it.
        >
        > I am amazed by how many modern english words can be transmuted into
        > Gothic with a high degree of accuracy, and I am even taking some
        > amusing liberties with it, for an example I turned the word "jive"
        > into a gothic equivalant: jeivan just by following the rules of the
        > ablaut (i turns into ei and the e at the end is dropped and is
        > replaced with -an).
        >
        > This is the very first language that I have ever attempted outside
        of
        > English. Some of it is a bit confusing, for an example, they use the
        > word "the" in two different contextes, for an example:
        >
        > Example of Sa used:
        > Sa hunds ni beitith
        > The hound [do]not bite.
        >
        > Example of Thai used:
        > Thai wulfos beitand
        > The wolves bite
        >
        > And if you look above, "ni" means "do not" or "does not", yet the
        word
        > "does" is not in front of "ni"! Why is this?
        >
        > And for some reason, if the noun is singular, the verb ends with -
        ith,
        > but if the noun being referred to is plural, the verb ends with -
        and.
        > I am also wondering why the present singular strong verb "beitan"
        ends
        > with -an, why not just "beit"?
        >
        > Just so many questions....I'm hoping that there will be someone who
        > will be willing to answer some of my questions.
        >
        > Salutations!
        > Michael
        >






        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.



        SPONSORED LINKS
        Dvd region free All regions dvd player

        ---------------------------------
        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


        Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        ---------------------------------







        ---------------------------------
        Yahoo! Shopping
        Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • llama_nom
        ... Excellent answer from Francisc. I would just point out that beit on its own could be used; it would be the imperative singular. That means the form of
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 15, 2005
          > > [...] "beit" is just
          > > a word root, it never occurs independently (i.e.
          > > without any ending)
          > > in Gothic.

          Excellent answer from Francisc. I would just point out that 'beit'
          on its own could be used; it would be the imperative singular. That
          means the form of the verb used in commands or instructions or
          requests directed at one person; if you want to tell someone to
          bite, you would say "Beit!".


          The way words change their form depending on what role they're
          playing in the sentence is called "inflection". So it might help to
          look this up in encyclopedias, Google, etc. It's much easier to
          find material teaching Latin, Greek, Russian, etc., but the
          underlying principles of inflection in these languages are the same
          as in Gothic. Icelandic is the modern Germanic language that best
          preserves the old grammar. You might also find helpful the
          following online introductions to Old Norse and Old English:

          http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
          http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/research/rawl/IOE/

          It's hard learning starting to learn a new language when you've
          never tried before, and Gothic has all sorts of extra difficulties
          for the beginner. It's only recorded in a few fragments and parts
          of a bible translation from Greek. The translator(s) tried to be as
          literal as they could and to match Greek word order as far as
          possible. It's possible to get a fairly complete idea of the
          inflectional system, but the syntax is not so easy to be sure of.
          There isn't a great deal of material available for understanding
          Gothic, and so there will always be big gaps in our understanding of
          it. What evidence there is needs to be carefully considered to work
          out to what extent it reflects actual Gothic usage, and to what
          extent it is an imitation of the Greek original. Don't let me put
          you off though, it's also great fun!


          David Salo's lessons use made-up examples which will reflect his
          understanding of Gothic at the time he wrote them, some years ago.
          One recurring criticism concerns DEFINITE ARTICLES. What these
          lessons treat as "the definite article" is not really used in quite
          the same way in Gothic.

          sa, ├żai, etc. were used much less than "the" in English. With an
          unqualified noun they are perhaps more likely to mean "that"
          or "this" (demonstrative pronouns), e.g. 'sa wulfs' "that wolf"
          or "this wolf", either a wolf already mentioned or "this particular
          wolf [as opposed to some other wolf]". Even where they are
          translated "the", the usage may differ:

          jah ufkunnaith sunja, jah SO sunja frijans izwis briggith.
          "and you shall know THE truth, and THE truth shall make you free"

          Here, John 8,32, the definite article is only used to recap on
          something already mentioned, whereas English and Greek have the
          definite article both times. (The form 'so' is used because 'sunja'
          is a feminine noun.)


          With adjectives or other qualifiers, the article/demonstrative is
          often used with a meaning more like "the": sa auhumista gudja "the
          chief priest". Also where an adjective is used substantively: 'sa
          frumista' "the first [one]".


          Even with adjectives though, the "definite article" is often not
          expressed. One famous example is John 10,11:

          ik im hairdeis gods. hairdeis SA goda saiwala seina lagjith faur
          lamba.

          "I am THE good shepherd. THE good shepherd lays down his life for
          THE sheep."

          As in the truth example, only the second "the" is actually expressed
          in the Gothic.


          When you feel ready for the real thing, have a look at this: [
          http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/ ].


          Re. 'jive', you'd probably use -b- in place of English -v- in the
          middle of a word. Compare: Got. dreiban "to drive" (in the sense of
          forcing someone to go (out/away)). Of course, 'jive' isn't actually
          an ancient Germanic word... When Salome dances for King Herod's
          birthday, the verb used is 'plinsjan', a Slavonic loanword.

          Llama Nom
        • Francisc Czobor
          Hi, Llama Nom! You re right, I overlooked the imperative form of the 2nd person, singular. This happens when writing a mail in hurry. Francisc ... That
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 19, 2005
            Hi, Llama Nom!

            You're right, I overlooked the imperative form of the 2nd person,
            singular.
            This happens when writing a mail in hurry.

            Francisc

            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > > > [...] "beit" is just
            > > > a word root, it never occurs independently (i.e.
            > > > without any ending)
            > > > in Gothic.
            >
            > Excellent answer from Francisc. I would just point out that 'beit'
            > on its own could be used; it would be the imperative singular.
            That
            > means the form of the verb used in commands or instructions or
            > requests directed at one person; if you want to tell someone to
            > bite, you would say "Beit!".
            >
            >
          • Francisc Czobor
            Hi Neo! Thank you very much for your appreciation, but it was not properly a tutorial, just an answer to some questions. A very good tutorial, from my point of
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 19, 2005
              Hi Neo!

              Thank you very much for your appreciation, but it was not properly a
              tutorial, just an answer to some questions.
              A very good tutorial, from my point of view, for beginners in Gothic,
              are David Salo's lessons
              (http://members.terracom.net/~dorothea/david/gothic/index.html or
              http://yarinareth.net/David/gothic/)

              Francisc

              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Neo Intelligencer
              <neointelligencer@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you for the great Tutorial, Francisc Czobor!
              >
              > Frohe Feiertage, Jeder!
              >
              > Lyckliga Ferier, Alla!
              >
              > Happy Holidays, Everyone!
              >
              > Sincerely,
              >
              > Neo Intelligencer
              >
              >
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.