Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Neologisms....

Expand Messages
  • Fredrik
    Hails! I ve made some neologisms that I would like you to comment. Some of them am I not that vary happy about and I ll mark a ¤ infront of em. I also want to
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 8, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Hails!

      I've made some neologisms that I would like you to comment. Some of
      them am I not that vary happy about and I'll mark a ¤ infront of em.
      I also want to have some suggestions of words that I haven't found
      any good words for. So if you have the time, give me some
      suggestions, plese.

      Here they are:
      swikunthi (sn) - manifesto
      hiuhma (wm) - political party (icel. flokkur = heap, crowd, party)
      baúrgeinei (wf) - bourgeoisie
      aihtiláus (adj) - proletarian (unpropertied person)
      stass (sf) - class (of society)
      dêdiwaíhts (sf) - fact (germ. tatsache = fact)
      spill (sn) - history (icel. saga = saga, story, history)
      us-waltjands (adj) - revolutionary
      uf-thrukjan (wv1) - oppress (germ. unterdrücken)
      gridjan (wv1) - gradate (from griths = grade)
      spapitha (sf) - form
      áin-falthjan (wv1) - simplify (from áin-falths = simply)
      sik and-wáibjan (wv1) - develop
      grundu-stoma (wm) - element, component
      und-thakjan (wv1) - discover (germ. entdecken)
      landa-nem (sn) - colonisation (icel. landnám = colonisation)
      ¤niujalandi (sn) - colony (icel. nýlenda = colony)
      ¤gilda (wm) - guild
      ¤us-dáudei (wf) - industry (from usdáuths = energetic, industrious?)
      and-waírths (adj) - modern (also means present, right?)

      Here are some words I want suggestions for:
      feudal, manufacture, corporation, condition/stipulation, steam.

      /Fredrik
    • OSCAR HERRERA
      these are mine for feudal---midjaima ewan --middle ages, manufacture- mannatawaida-man made, corporation-- haubitha stada---head quarters,
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 8, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        these are mine for feudal---midjaima ewan --middle ages, manufacture- mannatawaida-man made, corporation-- haubitha stada---head quarters, condition/stipulation--tilsa--for tils which means fit in condition, steam---watoges-- wato-water and ges-gas......

        Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote:Hails!

        I've made some neologisms that I would like you to comment. Some of
        them am I not that vary happy about and I'll mark a ¤ infront of em.
        I also want to have some suggestions of words that I haven't found
        any good words for. So if you have the time, give me some
        suggestions, plese.

        Here they are:
        swikunthi (sn) - manifesto
        hiuhma (wm) - political party (icel. flokkur = heap, crowd, party)
        baúrgeinei (wf) - bourgeoisie
        aihtiláus (adj) - proletarian (unpropertied person)
        stass (sf) - class (of society)
        dêdiwaíhts (sf) - fact (germ. tatsache = fact)
        spill (sn) - history (icel. saga = saga, story, history)
        us-waltjands (adj) - revolutionary
        uf-thrukjan (wv1) - oppress (germ. unterdrücken)
        gridjan (wv1) - gradate (from griths = grade)
        spapitha (sf) - form
        áin-falthjan (wv1) - simplify (from áin-falths = simply)
        sik and-wáibjan (wv1) - develop
        grundu-stoma (wm) - element, component
        und-thakjan (wv1) - discover (germ. entdecken)
        landa-nem (sn) - colonisation (icel. landnám = colonisation)
        ¤niujalandi (sn) - colony (icel. nýlenda = colony)
        ¤gilda (wm) - guild
        ¤us-dáudei (wf) - industry (from usdáuths = energetic, industrious?)
        and-waírths (adj) - modern (also means present, right?)

        Here are some words I want suggestions for:
        feudal, manufacture, corporation, condition/stipulation, steam.

        /Fredrik






        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
        Yahoo! Groups Links











        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • thiudans
        For steam, I would suggest *damps, steam, vapor For Feudal I would suggest rediscovering the original word, that is, base it on faihu- + a dental nominal
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 11, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          For steam, I would suggest *damps, 'steam, vapor'

          For Feudal I would suggest rediscovering the original word, that is, base it on faihu- + a
          dental nominal suffix, with an old -ja- adjective ending = ?
          *faih-u-th, n., 'feudal property, feudum'
          *faih-u-d-s, adj. ia-stem, 'feudal'
          *faih-u-d-ein-s, f., 'feudalism'

          For condition (i.e. stipulation, which is essentially, an agreement or a speaking together),
          one might use the extant (sama-)ga-qiss*.

          I will comment on others in due time.








          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
          >
          > these are mine for feudal---midjaima ewan --middle ages, manufacture-
          mannatawaida-man made, corporation-- haubitha stada---head quarters, condition/
          stipulation--tilsa--for tils which means fit in condition, steam---watoges-- wato-water
          and ges-gas......
          >
          > Fredrik <gadrauhts@h...> wrote:Hails!
          >
          > I've made some neologisms that I would like you to comment. Some of
          > them am I not that vary happy about and I'll mark a ¤ infront of em.
          > I also want to have some suggestions of words that I haven't found
          > any good words for. So if you have the time, give me some
          > suggestions, plese.
          >
          > Here they are:
          > swikunthi (sn) - manifesto
          > hiuhma (wm) - political party (icel. flokkur = heap, crowd, party)
          > baúrgeinei (wf) - bourgeoisie
          > aihtiláus (adj) - proletarian (unpropertied person)
          > stass (sf) - class (of society)
          > dêdiwaíhts (sf) - fact (germ. tatsache = fact)
          > spill (sn) - history (icel. saga = saga, story, history)
          > us-waltjands (adj) - revolutionary
          > uf-thrukjan (wv1) - oppress (germ. unterdrücken)
          > gridjan (wv1) - gradate (from griths = grade)
          > spapitha (sf) - form
          > áin-falthjan (wv1) - simplify (from áin-falths = simply)
          > sik and-wáibjan (wv1) - develop
          > grundu-stoma (wm) - element, component
          > und-thakjan (wv1) - discover (germ. entdecken)
          > landa-nem (sn) - colonisation (icel. landnám = colonisation)
          > ¤niujalandi (sn) - colony (icel. nýlenda = colony)
          > ¤gilda (wm) - guild
          > ¤us-dáudei (wf) - industry (from usdáuths = energetic, industrious?)
          > and-waírths (adj) - modern (also means present, right?)
          >
          > Here are some words I want suggestions for:
          > feudal, manufacture, corporation, condition/stipulation, steam.
          >
          > /Fredrik
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • thiudans
          For Manufacture, one should expect not manna- but handu-, thus handu-gawaurki or handu-gawaurkeins (the abstract manufacture ), handu-gawaurkjan (the verb, to
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 11, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            For Manufacture, one should expect not manna- but handu-, thus handu-gawaurki or
            handu-gawaurkeins (the abstract 'manufacture'), handu-gawaurkjan (the verb, to
            manufacture).

            For Corporation, let us follow the sense of 'body-ment' with *leikinassus, perhaps better
            as *in-ga- or just *ga-leikinassus.



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@h...> wrote:
            >
            > Hails!
            >
            > I've made some neologisms that I would like you to comment. Some of
            > them am I not that vary happy about and I'll mark a ¤ infront of em.
            > I also want to have some suggestions of words that I haven't found
            > any good words for. So if you have the time, give me some
            > suggestions, plese.
            >
            > Here they are:
            > swikunthi (sn) - manifesto
            > hiuhma (wm) - political party (icel. flokkur = heap, crowd, party)
            > baúrgeinei (wf) - bourgeoisie
            > aihtiláus (adj) - proletarian (unpropertied person)
            > stass (sf) - class (of society)
            > dêdiwaíhts (sf) - fact (germ. tatsache = fact)
            > spill (sn) - history (icel. saga = saga, story, history)
            > us-waltjands (adj) - revolutionary
            > uf-thrukjan (wv1) - oppress (germ. unterdrücken)
            > gridjan (wv1) - gradate (from griths = grade)
            > spapitha (sf) - form
            > áin-falthjan (wv1) - simplify (from áin-falths = simply)
            > sik and-wáibjan (wv1) - develop
            > grundu-stoma (wm) - element, component
            > und-thakjan (wv1) - discover (germ. entdecken)
            > landa-nem (sn) - colonisation (icel. landnám = colonisation)
            > ¤niujalandi (sn) - colony (icel. nýlenda = colony)
            > ¤gilda (wm) - guild
            > ¤us-dáudei (wf) - industry (from usdáuths = energetic, industrious?)
            > and-waírths (adj) - modern (also means present, right?)
            >
            > Here are some words I want suggestions for:
            > feudal, manufacture, corporation, condition/stipulation, steam.
            >
            > /Fredrik
            >
          • llama_nom
            Hails Fredrik! Some convincing suggestions there. We could go for a calque of the Latinate corporation , *leikoþus, mu (or yes, *ga-leikinassus, although
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 11, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Hails Fredrik!

              Some convincing suggestions there. We could go for a calque of the
              Latinate "corporation", *leikoþus, mu (or yes, *ga-leikinassus,
              although that sounds very much like `lekinessus' "healing", actually
              spelt `leikinassus' at L 9,15), but I personally would favour a more
              internally self-explicable compound. How about something like: *ga-
              waurki-hansa "profit company/band/cohort"? `hansa' is a cohort, a
              body of men/soldiers in Gothic, but in Middle German was applied to
              a group of people joined for business purposes, the Hanse (Hanseatic
              League).

              "Steam" -- well, we´ve got `milhma' "cloud". What are the oldest
              words for mist and steam in German? We could have a German inspired
              *damps, or a English/Dutch/Frisian inspired *staums, ma, or a Norse
              + German inspired *nibls, ma. Or *rauks, mi., whose cognates
              mean "smoke" or "steam" (this has wide currency throughout the
              Germanic lands). Or as Oscar suggests, Greek via Dutch inspired
              *gas, a modern invented word. In fact, Oscar's compound idea would
              be good for specific vapours:

              wata-rauks, mi., *wata-nibls, ma. water vapour
              sunna-stabi-rauks, mi. helium (sun-element-gas), see below...
              *in-giba-nibls, ma, *aitra-rauks, mi. toxic vapour

              Oscar´s suggestion, corrected to something along the lines of `midja-
              aldeis', sounds good for the Middle Ages, which had feudal social
              structures. As for the feudal system itself, Medieval
              Latin `feudum', `feodum' is supposed to be of Germanic origin,
              swaswe þiudans unsar gemelida, but the exact etymology is
              problematic.

              under FEE, the Oxford English dictionary has:

              "a. AF. fee, fie = OF. fé, fié, *fiet (app. implied in fiez pl.),
              fief, fieu, fiu, Pr. feo, feu, fieu, It. fio (prob. from Fr. or Pr.;
              the Langobardic Lat. faderfium is a compound of Teut. fehu FEE n.1),
              med.L. feodum, feudum (first cited by Du Cange from a charter of
              Charles the Fat, A.D. 884), also fevum, feum, fedium, in Sicily
              fegum.
              The mutual relation of the various Romanic and med.L. forms is
              somewhat obscure. According to some scholars, fief is a vbl. n. f.
              fiever to grant in fee, f. fieu, which, as well as the other forms
              of the n., descends from feodum or its Teut. source. The ultimate
              etymology is uncertain. A prevalent view is that the word is f. OHG.
              fehu cattle, property, money (= FEE n.1), + ôd wealth, property.
              This must be rejected, because such an etymology could directly
              yield no other sense than that of `movable property', which is very
              remote from the sense of feodum as used in early records, viz.
              usufruct granted in requital of service (often opposed to alodis,
              originally meaning `inheritance'); cf. the synonyms, Ger. lehen, OE.
              laen (the same word as Eng. loan), and L. beneficium, i.e. something
              granted to a subject by the kindness of his lord. A more tenable
              theory is that the OF. fiu is an adoption of the Teut. fehu in the
              contextual sense of `wages, payment for service'; the Rom. word
              certainly had this meaning (see branch II below), and it is
              conceivable that the feudal sense is a specific application of it.
              The d of the L. forms, feudum, feodum, however, is left unexplained
              by this hypothesis; some regard it as a euphonic insertion
              (comparing It. chiodo nail from vulgar L. *clo-um from clavum);
              others think that it is due to the analogy of allodium; and others
              suppose feudum to be a vbl. n. f. feudare = feum dare; but each of
              these views involves serious difficulties. It is not impossible that
              two originally distinct words may have been confused. A conjecture
              proposed by Prof. Kern, and approved by some German jurists, is that
              feodum represents an OHG. *fehôd, related to the vb. fehôn, which is
              recorded only in the sense `to eat, feed upon', but is supposed on
              etymological grounds to have had the wider meaning `to take for
              one's enjoyment'. This would account fairly well for the sense, but
              involves too much hypothesis to be accepted with confidence. It is
              curious, if the word be of Teut. formation, that there is no direct
              proof of its having existed in any Teut. language, nor is it found
              even in the L. text of the Frankish laws."

              From the last suggestion, we might get Got.

              *faíhoþus, mu. fief
              *faíhoþisks, a. feudal.

              For manufacture I´ve been toying with the idea of: *handu-taui, -
              waurstw "hand-work", *handu-taweins, -waukeins "hand-
              making/working". But since the referrence to hands is just an
              accident of Latin etymology, how about *ga-smiþons,
              fi. "production, manufacture", from the attested verb `ga-smiþon'.

              "Condition, stipulation", hmm, I´m still pondering that one. To me
              the word `stipulation' implies not so much an agreement (gaqiss,
              samaqiss, trausti, triggwa) as a demand (?) or requirement (Got.
              þaurfts) or a term that must be met. But looking now, I see that
              the sense of an agreed term is given in dictionaries. Maybe that's
              more of a specialised legal sense? I was thinking of ON `kostr',
              but then that's more of a term granted, I think, than a
              requirement. What other old Germanic words can we think of?

              Yes, 'andwairþs' is "present", which might include "modern",
              although I suppose the New Testament examples tend to contrast
              present unpleasantness with future relief, whereas the English
              word "modern" contrasts the present with the past. Maybe 'niujis'
              would be a better fit in some contexts? Another possibility, 'nu'
              used as an indeclinable adjective (albeit matching Greek NUN), as at
              2Tim 4,10 'frijonds þo nu ald' "loving the present age".

              Your suggestion *andwaibjan, which sounds as if it could literally
              mean "unwind", makes a plausible calque for "develop", "entwickeln",
              etc. I would suggest that for the intransitive form, the reflexive
              pronoun would normally follow the verb, thus: *andwaibjan sik. This
              is the rule where the reflexive pronoun completes the sense of the
              verb (where the verb would have a different meaning without it) or
              where it just serves to make a verb intransitive, gafalh sik `hid
              (himself)'. The exceptional word order of 2Cor 12,10 'mis
              galeikaiþ' I suspect might be due to exceptional emphasis: "me, I
              take pleasure in illnesses [unlike other apostles who brag about
              more normal things like visions and revelations]". But reflexive
              pronouns may come before the verb where they have a full meaning of
              their own independent of the verb, corresponding to
              English "themselves", etc. Even there though, they can follow the
              verb if not emphatic: gawasida sik "dressed (clothed themselves)",
              ataugidedum sik "appeared (showed themselves)". Compare:

              ni uslaubjandein faur mel sik gahaban "not allowing himself to be
              captured prematurely"
              ungahabandans sik "without self-restraint, (morally) incontinent"

              In the first example, 'gahaban' has its ordinary meaning, and 'sik'
              is just reflexive. In the 2nd, 'sik' alters the meaning.

              Other words meaning to grow: liudan, keinan, wahsjan.

              element. Your *grundu-stoma seems a fair suggestion, as far as I
              can see. Cf. also: uf stabim þis fairhvaus "under the elements of
              this world". Greek hUPO TA STOXEIA "under the letters" (which might
              be what inspired this translation) or "under the elements", or
              anything arranged in sequence. A Gothic marginal gloss
              explains 'stabim' as 'tugglam', dat.pl. of *tuggl,
              neuter--cognate with OE tungol "heavenly body", ON tungl "moon".

              I can think of a few on you list for which Gothic words are attested
              already:

              form. laudi, fjo, hiwi, nja., farw, na?, galeiki, nja
              oppress. (persecute) wrikan, sv. V., wrakjan, wv. 1.; (oppress as
              troubles) ana-praggan, sv. VII.; (oppress, burden) kaurjan, wv. 1.;
              (burden, weigh down with) af-hlaþan, sv. VI.
              oppression. (persecution) wraka, wrakja, sf., wrekei, wf.
              discover. finþan, III. (A Gothic word formed in a similar way to
              the German 'entdecken' is 'andhuljan', which Wright glosses
              as "uncover, disclose, reveal, open".)

              Some more suggestions:

              *boka-leisei, fin. literature.
              *ga-maini-hansa, fo. collective.
              *faihu-fasteis, mja. economist.
              *faihu-leisei, fin. finance, economics.
              *stoma-stafs (b), mi. chemical element.
              *tuggla-fasteis, mja. astronomer.
              *tuggla-leisei, fin. astronomy.
              *wisti-fasteis, mja. physicist.
              *wisti-leisei, fin. physics.
              *wisti-stafs (b), mi. elementary particle.
              *wokra-hansa, fo. banking company.


              Now you can write:

              Skohsl Aiwropa hvoteiþ, skohsl gamainduþiskeins. Ainhvarjizuh
              Aiwropos reike in weiha triggwa gagahaftida sik du usdreiban
              unhulþon þo: Rumos papa, Russalandis kaisar, Maitairnih jah Gizo,
              uswaltjands ana Fragkam, sahsiskai wardiferjans. Hvar ist sa
              andstandanda hiuhma, þammei fram þaim waldufni habandam andastaþjam
              seinaim, ni gasakada bi, þatei gamainduþisks sijai?

              Llama Nom
            • Fredrik
              Hi all! Thank you all for your suggestions. I guess that it doesn t takes a genius to understand what I m tryin to do...at least Llama Nom have figured it out
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 12, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi all!

                Thank you all for your suggestions. I guess that it doesn't takes a
                genius to understand what I'm tryin to do...at least Llama Nom have
                figured it out :)
                That part you translated will I compare to mine...I have done just a
                little bit of it yet, but I haven't got the time and all these lack
                of words makes it only more diffucult and takes more time.

                I see you (Llama) have written the names (like Maitairnih) in a
                gothic orthografy. I thought about it too, and czechian have Bedrech
                for german Friedrich. What do you think bout Karl Marks and
                Frithureiks Aiggels, or something like that, instead of their real
                spellings?

                About oppress I have looked at words like wrikan, wrakjan and kaurjan
                and I thought at that time that these wheren't exactly the same as
                oppress. Persecution doesn't have to be involved in oppresion, right?
                A oppressed people could just be discriminated or be cut out of some
                rights etc.

                About discover I also thought about finthan, and I might be totaly
                wrong about this but I think that is more like if you are looking
                fore something and then find it. Anyway I think andhuljan could be a
                good choice.

                Already existing words are sometimes the most difficult. Coz I think
                the definition of the words aint always the same as I'm looking for,
                even though they are very similar.

                --- Fredrik

                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hails Fredrik!
                >
                > Some convincing suggestions there. We could go for a calque of the
                > Latinate "corporation", *leikoþus, mu (or yes, *ga-leikinassus,
                > although that sounds very much like `lekinessus' "healing",
                actually
                > spelt `leikinassus' at L 9,15), but I personally would favour a
                more
                > internally self-explicable compound. How about something like: *ga-
                > waurki-hansa "profit company/band/cohort"? `hansa' is a cohort, a
                > body of men/soldiers in Gothic, but in Middle German was applied to
                > a group of people joined for business purposes, the Hanse
                (Hanseatic
                > League).
                >
                > "Steam" -- well, we´ve got `milhma' "cloud". What are the oldest
                > words for mist and steam in German? We could have a German
                inspired
                > *damps, or a English/Dutch/Frisian inspired *staums, ma, or a Norse
                > + German inspired *nibls, ma. Or *rauks, mi., whose cognates
                > mean "smoke" or "steam" (this has wide currency throughout the
                > Germanic lands). Or as Oscar suggests, Greek via Dutch inspired
                > *gas, a modern invented word. In fact, Oscar's compound idea would
                > be good for specific vapours:
                >
                > wata-rauks, mi., *wata-nibls, ma. water vapour
                > sunna-stabi-rauks, mi. helium (sun-element-gas), see below...
                > *in-giba-nibls, ma, *aitra-rauks, mi. toxic vapour
                >
                > Oscar´s suggestion, corrected to something along the lines of
                `midja-
                > aldeis', sounds good for the Middle Ages, which had feudal social
                > structures. As for the feudal system itself, Medieval
                > Latin `feudum', `feodum' is supposed to be of Germanic origin,
                > swaswe þiudans unsar gemelida, but the exact etymology is
                > problematic.
                >
                > under FEE, the Oxford English dictionary has:
                >
                > "a. AF. fee, fie = OF. fé, fié, *fiet (app. implied in fiez pl.),
                > fief, fieu, fiu, Pr. feo, feu, fieu, It. fio (prob. from Fr. or
                Pr.;
                > the Langobardic Lat. faderfium is a compound of Teut. fehu FEE
                n.1),
                > med.L. feodum, feudum (first cited by Du Cange from a charter of
                > Charles the Fat, A.D. 884), also fevum, feum, fedium, in Sicily
                > fegum.
                > The mutual relation of the various Romanic and med.L. forms is
                > somewhat obscure. According to some scholars, fief is a vbl. n. f.
                > fiever to grant in fee, f. fieu, which, as well as the other forms
                > of the n., descends from feodum or its Teut. source. The ultimate
                > etymology is uncertain. A prevalent view is that the word is f.
                OHG.
                > fehu cattle, property, money (= FEE n.1), + ôd wealth, property.
                > This must be rejected, because such an etymology could directly
                > yield no other sense than that of `movable property', which is very
                > remote from the sense of feodum as used in early records, viz.
                > usufruct granted in requital of service (often opposed to alodis,
                > originally meaning `inheritance'); cf. the synonyms, Ger. lehen,
                OE.
                > laen (the same word as Eng. loan), and L. beneficium, i.e.
                something
                > granted to a subject by the kindness of his lord. A more tenable
                > theory is that the OF. fiu is an adoption of the Teut. fehu in the
                > contextual sense of `wages, payment for service'; the Rom. word
                > certainly had this meaning (see branch II below), and it is
                > conceivable that the feudal sense is a specific application of it.
                > The d of the L. forms, feudum, feodum, however, is left unexplained
                > by this hypothesis; some regard it as a euphonic insertion
                > (comparing It. chiodo nail from vulgar L. *clo-um from clavum);
                > others think that it is due to the analogy of allodium; and others
                > suppose feudum to be a vbl. n. f. feudare = feum dare; but each of
                > these views involves serious difficulties. It is not impossible
                that
                > two originally distinct words may have been confused. A conjecture
                > proposed by Prof. Kern, and approved by some German jurists, is
                that
                > feodum represents an OHG. *fehôd, related to the vb. fehôn, which
                is
                > recorded only in the sense `to eat, feed upon', but is supposed on
                > etymological grounds to have had the wider meaning `to take for
                > one's enjoyment'. This would account fairly well for the sense, but
                > involves too much hypothesis to be accepted with confidence. It is
                > curious, if the word be of Teut. formation, that there is no direct
                > proof of its having existed in any Teut. language, nor is it found
                > even in the L. text of the Frankish laws."
                >
                > From the last suggestion, we might get Got.
                >
                > *faíhoþus, mu. fief
                > *faíhoþisks, a. feudal.
                >
                > For manufacture I´ve been toying with the idea of: *handu-taui, -
                > waurstw "hand-work", *handu-taweins, -waukeins "hand-
                > making/working". But since the referrence to hands is just an
                > accident of Latin etymology, how about *ga-smiþons,
                > fi. "production, manufacture", from the attested verb `ga-smiþon'.
                >
                > "Condition, stipulation", hmm, I´m still pondering that one. To me
                > the word `stipulation' implies not so much an agreement (gaqiss,
                > samaqiss, trausti, triggwa) as a demand (?) or requirement (Got.
                > þaurfts) or a term that must be met. But looking now, I see that
                > the sense of an agreed term is given in dictionaries. Maybe that's
                > more of a specialised legal sense? I was thinking of ON `kostr',
                > but then that's more of a term granted, I think, than a
                > requirement. What other old Germanic words can we think of?
                >
                > Yes, 'andwairþs' is "present", which might include "modern",
                > although I suppose the New Testament examples tend to contrast
                > present unpleasantness with future relief, whereas the English
                > word "modern" contrasts the present with the past. Maybe 'niujis'
                > would be a better fit in some contexts? Another possibility, 'nu'
                > used as an indeclinable adjective (albeit matching Greek NUN), as
                at
                > 2Tim 4,10 'frijonds þo nu ald' "loving the present age".
                >
                > Your suggestion *andwaibjan, which sounds as if it could literally
                > mean "unwind", makes a plausible calque
                for "develop", "entwickeln",
                > etc. I would suggest that for the intransitive form, the reflexive
                > pronoun would normally follow the verb, thus: *andwaibjan sik.
                This
                > is the rule where the reflexive pronoun completes the sense of the
                > verb (where the verb would have a different meaning without it) or
                > where it just serves to make a verb intransitive, gafalh sik `hid
                > (himself)'. The exceptional word order of 2Cor 12,10 'mis
                > galeikaiþ' I suspect might be due to exceptional emphasis: "me, I
                > take pleasure in illnesses [unlike other apostles who brag about
                > more normal things like visions and revelations]". But reflexive
                > pronouns may come before the verb where they have a full meaning of
                > their own independent of the verb, corresponding to
                > English "themselves", etc. Even there though, they can follow the
                > verb if not emphatic: gawasida sik "dressed (clothed themselves)",
                > ataugidedum sik "appeared (showed themselves)". Compare:
                >
                > ni uslaubjandein faur mel sik gahaban "not allowing himself to be
                > captured prematurely"
                > ungahabandans sik "without self-restraint, (morally) incontinent"
                >
                > In the first example, 'gahaban' has its ordinary meaning, and 'sik'
                > is just reflexive. In the 2nd, 'sik' alters the meaning.
                >
                > Other words meaning to grow: liudan, keinan, wahsjan.
                >
                > element. Your *grundu-stoma seems a fair suggestion, as far as I
                > can see. Cf. also: uf stabim þis fairhvaus "under the elements of
                > this world". Greek hUPO TA STOXEIA "under the letters" (which
                might
                > be what inspired this translation) or "under the elements", or
                > anything arranged in sequence. A Gothic marginal gloss
                > explains 'stabim' as 'tugglam', dat.pl. of *tuggl,
                > neuter--cognate with OE tungol "heavenly body", ON tungl "moon".
                >
                > I can think of a few on you list for which Gothic words are
                attested
                > already:
                >
                > form. laudi, fjo, hiwi, nja., farw, na?, galeiki, nja
                > oppress. (persecute) wrikan, sv. V., wrakjan, wv. 1.; (oppress as
                > troubles) ana-praggan, sv. VII.; (oppress, burden) kaurjan, wv. 1.;
                > (burden, weigh down with) af-hlaþan, sv. VI.
                > oppression. (persecution) wraka, wrakja, sf., wrekei, wf.
                > discover. finþan, III. (A Gothic word formed in a similar way to
                > the German 'entdecken' is 'andhuljan', which Wright glosses
                > as "uncover, disclose, reveal, open".)
                >
                > Some more suggestions:
                >
                > *boka-leisei, fin. literature.
                > *ga-maini-hansa, fo. collective.
                > *faihu-fasteis, mja. economist.
                > *faihu-leisei, fin. finance, economics.
                > *stoma-stafs (b), mi. chemical element.
                > *tuggla-fasteis, mja. astronomer.
                > *tuggla-leisei, fin. astronomy.
                > *wisti-fasteis, mja. physicist.
                > *wisti-leisei, fin. physics.
                > *wisti-stafs (b), mi. elementary particle.
                > *wokra-hansa, fo. banking company.
                >
                >
                > Now you can write:
                >
                > Skohsl Aiwropa hvoteiþ, skohsl gamainduþiskeins. Ainhvarjizuh
                > Aiwropos reike in weiha triggwa gagahaftida sik du usdreiban
                > unhulþon þo: Rumos papa, Russalandis kaisar, Maitairnih jah Gizo,
                > uswaltjands ana Fragkam, sahsiskai wardiferjans. Hvar ist sa
                > andstandanda hiuhma, þammei fram þaim waldufni habandam andastaþjam
                > seinaim, ni gasakada bi, þatei gamainduþisks sijai?
                >
                > Llama Nom
                >
              • llama_nom
                ... Engels I think just means English , so you could even translate that as Friþureiks *agg(i)liska F. the English . You could also inflect Karl,
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 12, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  > What do you think bout Karl Marks and
                  > Frithureiks Aiggels, or something like that, instead of their real
                  > spellings?



                  Engels I think just means "English", so you could even translate
                  that as Friþureiks *agg(i)liska "F. the English". You could also
                  inflect Karl, nominative Karls. Under the entry for 'churl', the
                  OED has:

                  OE. ceorl:--WGer. kerl (Fris. tzerl, MDu. kerel, kerle, Du. kerel,
                  MLG. kerle, MG. kerl(e, Ger. kerl, pointing to OTeut. types *kerlo-
                  z, *kerlon-, beside *karlo-z, *karlon-, which gave ON. karl, OHG.
                  charl, charlo...)

                  The *o here in inflectional endings became *a in PrG, hence these
                  would normally be quoted as -az (a-stem) and -an (an-stem)
                  respectively.




                  > About oppress I have looked at words like wrikan, wrakjan and
                  kaurjan
                  > and I thought at that time that these wheren't exactly the same as
                  > oppress. Persecution doesn't have to be involved in oppresion,
                  right?
                  > A oppressed people could just be discriminated or be cut out of
                  some
                  > rights etc.


                  It's a slippery slope though. To me the social meanings
                  of 'persecution' and 'oppression' don't seem to be necessarily all
                  that clearly distinct from each other. Both could include physical
                  violence. Or either could refer to a combination of more subtle
                  niggling abuses. Both could be inflicted on a group of people, but
                  it would be more usual to talk about persecuting (hounding,
                  harrassing) an individual. 'repression' to me suggests something
                  more active than 'oppression', but that might just be me. You can
                  REPRESS a movement or a meeting or a rebellion or the opposition,
                  but you wouldn't normally OPPRESS a single specific event. But a
                  people generally could be 'repressed' or 'oppressed' and that might
                  amount to the same thing. They're all negative words in the sense
                  that governments wouldn't admit to such actions, even when inflicted
                  on their stated enemies, but instead talk of, for
                  instance, "controlling" or "clamping down on illegal immigration"
                  (instead of actually oppressing/persecuting, assaulting, imprisoning
                  and indeed massacring the migrants themselves). I'm afraid I can't
                  be so precise about the various Gothic words...





                  > About discover I also thought about finthan, and I might be totaly
                  > wrong about this but I think that is more like if you are looking
                  > fore something and then find it.


                  If you look at the examples, 'finþan' seems to be more restricted
                  than English "find". 'finþan' has the sense of discovering
                  information, coming to know, or learning (finding out) a
                  fact. 'fanþ' and 'ufkunnaida' both translate Greek 'egnw' "came to
                  know, learnt, discovered (information)". The more general sense
                  of "find" (e.g. find an object or encounter a person, also discover
                  someone to be something) is covered by 'bi-gitan'.

                  iþ Peilatus sildaleikida ei is juþan gaswalt; jah athaitands þana
                  hundafaþ frah ina jû~þan gadauþnodedi.
                  finþands at þamma hundafada...
                  "discovering/learning [that Jesus was indeed dead] from the
                  centurion"
                  (Mk 15,25)

                  fanþ þan manageins filu Iudaie þatei Iesus jainar ist
                  "a great multitude of the Jews than discovered/learnt that Jesus is
                  there"
                  (J 12,9)

                  bigetun þana siukan skalk hailana
                  "they found the sick servant well"
                  (L 7,10)



                  > I guess that it doesn't takes a
                  genius to understand what I'm tryin to do...at least Llama Nom have
                  figured it out :)


                  Yes, even me!

                  Llama Nom
                • Fredrik
                  My neologisms that you havent commented I guess you find quite awright...is that really so?????????? ... inflicted ... imprisoning ... I m not that good at
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 14, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    My neologisms that you havent commented I guess you find quite
                    awright...is that really so??????????
                    >
                    >
                    > It's a slippery slope though. To me the social meanings
                    > of 'persecution' and 'oppression' don't seem to be necessarily all
                    > that clearly distinct from each other. Both could include physical
                    > violence. Or either could refer to a combination of more subtle
                    > niggling abuses. Both could be inflicted on a group of people, but
                    > it would be more usual to talk about persecuting (hounding,
                    > harrassing) an individual. 'repression' to me suggests something
                    > more active than 'oppression', but that might just be me. You can
                    > REPRESS a movement or a meeting or a rebellion or the opposition,
                    > but you wouldn't normally OPPRESS a single specific event. But a
                    > people generally could be 'repressed' or 'oppressed' and that might
                    > amount to the same thing. They're all negative words in the sense
                    > that governments wouldn't admit to such actions, even when
                    inflicted
                    > on their stated enemies, but instead talk of, for
                    > instance, "controlling" or "clamping down on illegal immigration"
                    > (instead of actually oppressing/persecuting, assaulting,
                    imprisoning
                    > and indeed massacring the migrants themselves). I'm afraid I can't
                    > be so precise about the various Gothic words...
                    >

                    I'm not that good at english so I my definitions aint that good
                    either I guess...I think I'll go with your suggestions after all



                    > If you look at the examples, 'finþan' seems to be more restricted
                    > than English "find". 'finþan' has the sense of discovering
                    > information, coming to know, or learning (finding out) a
                    > fact. 'fanþ' and 'ufkunnaida' both translate Greek 'egnw' "came to
                    > know, learnt, discovered (information)". The more general sense
                    > of "find" (e.g. find an object or encounter a person, also discover
                    > someone to be something) is covered by 'bi-gitan'.

                    In the texte the sentence was to discover America...is it ok with
                    finthan there?

                    >
                    >
                    > > I guess that it doesn't takes a
                    > genius to understand what I'm tryin to do...at least Llama Nom have
                    > figured it out :)
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes, even me!
                    >
                    I hope you didnt missunderstood me!

                    /Fredrik
                  • llama_nom
                    ... Yes, I liked ainfalþjan, aihtilaus, etc. They seem very logical. And I even learnt a new English word gradate . Till now I´ve only known been familiar
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 14, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@h...> wrote:
                      >
                      > My neologisms that you havent commented I guess you find quite
                      > awright...is that really so??????????

                      Yes, I liked ainfalþjan, aihtilaus, etc. They seem very logical.
                      And I even learnt a new English word "gradate". Till now I´ve only
                      known been familiar with the noun "gradation". I would just say
                      that 'usdaudei' already exists with the meaning "diligence", in
                      other words, the quality of making an effort, taking pains/care over
                      something. In modern English, the usual meaning of "industry" is a
                      sector of the economy, especially production, but people now also
                      talk about "the service industry" (shops, etc.), the airline
                      industry (transport)--so any field of official paid (and taxed)
                      employment. In slighly more old-fashioned language, "industry" can
                      also be a personal quality, and it's still normal to use the
                      adjective "industrious", meaning "hard working", something pretty
                      close to "diligent". How about:

                      us-daudei, fin. diligence, zeal, "industry" in the sense of making
                      an effort and being hard working.

                      *ga-smiþons, fi. production, manufacturing industry.

                      ? "industry" where it means a "sphere of employment, a sector of
                      the economy". Not sure about this last one. *waurstw-, *tawja-
                      kuni, nja.? *ga-waurki-asts, fi.? Or something with -fera, -
                      gawi "zone, area" used in a metaphorical way. Or *ga-waurki-
                      kreitus "profit-sphere", or *tawja-kreitus "work/job/task-sphere"?
                      At least that's bizarre enough that it won't get confused with more
                      basic concepts.


                      Also, you might want to consider the declension of "guild". The OED
                      says:

                      "Several distinct formations from the same Teut. root have here
                      coalesced. (1) The forms within initial g, y prob. represent mainly
                      OE. gild, gyld, (ield) str. neut., recorded only twice in this
                      sense, but frequent in the senses `payment, compensation, offering,
                      sacrifice, worship, idol'; corresp. to OFris. geld, ield money, OS.
                      geld payment, sacrifice, reward, OHG. gelt payment, offering,
                      tribute, money (Du., G. geld, money), ON. giald payment, Goth. gild
                      tribute:OTeut. *geldom. (2) OE. had also gegyld str. neut., where
                      the prefix ge- (see Y- prefix) expresses the notion of combined or
                      collective action. This has not been found later than OE., but as
                      the prefix ge- regularly disappeared in substantives (cf. reeve) its
                      representative in the 14th c. would coincide with that of the simple
                      gyld. (3) The pronunciation with (g) must be due to adoption of, or
                      influence from, the ON. gildi str. neut. guild, guild-feast,
                      banquet, also payment, value (Sw. gille, Da. gilde guild):OTeut.
                      *gildjom.
                      In continental Teut. the sense of `guild' was expressed by a
                      fourth formation from the same root, repr. OTeut. type *gildjôn- wk.
                      fem., and occurring as MLG., MDu. gilde fem. and neut. (Du. gild),
                      whence mod.G. gilde; in Carolingian Latin the word appears as
                      geldonia, gildonia, explained by confraternitas; the later med.Lat.
                      form is gilda; OF. had gilde, ghelde, gheude, jode, etc., in the
                      senses `guild, band of foot-soldiers.'
                      The root *geld- in these derivatives is prob. to be taken in the
                      sense `to pay, contribute', so that the n. would primarily mean an
                      association of persons contributing money for some common object.
                      As, however, the root also means `to sacrifice, worship', some have
                      supposed that guilds were so called as being combinations for
                      religious purposes, heathen or Christian.
                      The sense `member of a guild, guild-brother', was expressed by OE.
                      gylda and gegylda, MLG. gilde wk. masc.; the Teut. word appears in
                      med.L. as gild (also congild, congilda), and in OF. gelde, geldon
                      (with many variants), one of a company (gelde) of foot-soldiers."

                      Which leaves us a few possibilities for Gothic, such as:

                      *ga-gild, na. (as in OE, medieval Latin)
                      *ga-gild(a?), fo.? (medieval Latin)
                      *(ga)gildi, nja. (as in ON)
                      *gildjo, fon. (as in continental Germanic)

                      And for a guild member: ga-gilda (male), ga-gildo (female).


                      >
                      > > If you look at the examples, 'finþan' seems to be more
                      restricted
                      > > than English "find". 'finþan' has the sense of discovering
                      > > information, coming to know, or learning (finding out) a
                      > > fact. 'fanþ' and 'ufkunnaida' both translate Greek 'egnw' "came
                      to
                      > > know, learnt, discovered (information)". The more general sense
                      > > of "find" (e.g. find an object or encounter a person, also
                      discover
                      > > someone to be something) is covered by 'bi-gitan'.


                      > In the texte the sentence was to discover America...is it ok with
                      > finthan there?


                      Oh, in that case, I would go with 'bigitan'. 'finþan' is discover
                      only in the sense of learning information, e.g. if you "discovered
                      *that* America extists", that is if someone tells you about it or
                      you read about it. But for physically finding the continent itself,
                      I would expect 'bigitan'.

                      By the way, a much rarer sense of English "discover" appears in
                      Chess terminology: "discovered check", where a piece moves out of
                      the way, allowing another piece that was behind it to put the enemy
                      king in check. This is more like "uncover, reveal", 'and-huljan'.




                      > > > I guess that it doesn't takes a
                      > > genius to understand what I'm tryin to do...at least Llama Nom
                      have
                      > > figured it out :)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yes, even me!
                      > >
                      > I hope you didnt missunderstood me!


                      No, just teasing ;)

                      LN
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.