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dative & accusative subjects

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  • llama_nom
    ... oscilation ... involvement ... In Modern Icelandic there s a frowned-upon tendency (called þágufallssýki dative sickness ) to use the dative with
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@g...> wrote:
      > Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
      > construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
      > (such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of
      > between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, it
      > doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
      > native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
      > Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active
      > of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir träumt' in
      > German, I'd go for an accusative as well.

      In Modern Icelandic there's a frowned-upon tendency
      (called 'þágufallssýki' "dative sickness") to use the dative with some
      verbs that traditionally took an accusative subject. Especially where
      there are synonyms or near synonyms that do traditionally have a
      dative subject. Maybe the dative is favoured because it's the more
      common oblique subject.

      Interesting comment about accusative indicating a more active
      involvement. Possible exception: verbs to do with suffering pain or
      deprivation. In Icelandic: hunger, thirst, sickness, ticklishness,
      lack, want, desire. In Gothic: hunger, thirst, care/concern.
      Icelandic: mér er kald, NHG mir ist (es) kalt "I´m cold" (i.e. I feel
      cold); but with a more serious affliction, Icelandic: mig
      kell/kelur "I freeze, get frostbitten".

      Llama Nom
    • llama_nom
      Correction: m�r er kalt.
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
        Correction: mér er kalt.

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:

        > Icelandic: mér er kald,
      • David Kiltz
        Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative of _*(ga-)môt-_ to
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 18, 2005
          Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is
          distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative
          of _*(ga-)môt-_ 'to find room', or directly the cognate of MoE
          _moot_. _*(ga-)môt- seems to ultimately derive from PIE _*med-_ 'to
          measure (for), care, look after'. Maybe, _mætan_ belongs in the same
          group. There is a lengthened grade derivative Greek _mêdeô_ 'ponder,
          think out, decide'. Or it's derived from _*meh1-_ with a dental
          suffix, which would also explain the long vowel. Maybe, a dream was
          thought to be 'measured out, apportioned' to the dreamer. This is, of
          course, very speculative.

          As for _draugm-_, I never was very happy with the connection to the
          root _*dhreugh-_ 'deceive' etc. However, other connection don't seem
          really good.


          On 04.09.2005, at 15:43, llama_nom wrote:

          > (ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
          > dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
          > wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
          > cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
          > as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
          > would be *metjan.
          > ___________________________________________
          > *draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
          > be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
          > Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.
          > ___________________________________________
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