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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Neo-gothic poem needs help

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  • David Kiltz
    ... On the note of Gothic to dream . No, I can t find an attested form either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to _*draum-, draugm-_ consider derivatives
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 3, 2005
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      On 31.08.2005, at 01:05, Arthur Jones wrote:

      > Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me of
      > the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.

      On the note of Gothic 'to dream'. No, I can't find an attested form
      either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to _*draum-, draugm-_
      consider derivatives of PGerm. _*sweƀnaz_ (swebnaz_). In the OldEngl.
      poem 'Dream of the Rood' we find the expression "...swefna ... hwaet
      me gemaette", thus, a dream 'that met me'. So Arthur might, perhaps,
      as well consider using something like _*swibns_ as 'dream'. As for
      impersonal expressions like 'methinks/ mich dünkt', it should be
      noted that in (archaizing) NHGerman it's 'mir träumt' with dative,
      not accusative. In Icelandic it's the accusative e.g. 'mik dreymdi
      draum'. Languages are, of course, where the term applies -strictu
      sensu- logical. Otherwise, they wouldn't work. However, I don't see
      how the accusative is necessarily more 'logical' than the dative.
      Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
      construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
      (such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of oscilation
      between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, it
      doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
      native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
      Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active involvement
      of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir träumt' in
      German, I'd go for an accusative as well.

      -David
    • llama_nom
      Good suggestion, David. Gmc. *swebna- (cognate with Gk. hupnos) is neuter in OE, but masculine in ON, OS and OHG. Means both sleep and dream . Often
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
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        Good suggestion, David. Gmc. *swebna- (cognate with Gk. hupnos) is
        neuter in OE, but masculine in ON, OS and OHG. Means both "sleep"
        and "dream". Often plural in OE.

        SYNTAX in ON. http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?
        lemma=svefn&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m1=svefn+svefns+svefninn+sve
        fnsins+svefninum+svefni&l1=Leita&lmax=1

        er þér svefns "thou dreamest", "you´re dreaming"


        SYNTAX in OE.

        ic geseah on swefne "I saw in a dream"; ic geseah swefn "I saw a
        dream"; for ðære gesihðe ðe he on ðæm swefne geseah "for that vision
        which he saw in the dreams"; him wearþ on slæpe swefen ætywed "he
        was shown a vision in his sleep"; þa stod him sum mon æt þurh
        swefn "then some man stood by him in his dream"; Hi slepon
        swæfnum "they slept with dreams" (dormierunt somnum); oðer swefen
        hine mætte "another dream came to him".

        swefnian, 1. with acc. of dreamer "to appear to someone in a dream";
        2. with nom. of dreamer "to dream". WHAT CASE IS THE DREAM?

        (ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
        dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
        wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
        cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
        as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
        would be *metjan.
        ___________________________________________

        *draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
        be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
        Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.
        ___________________________________________

        Things our Gothic Ranilo fraujo, might say:

        Ik in swibna siun . gasahv ubils.

        Mis swibn warþ . þanei saizlep ataugida.

        Mik militonde þar . gametida hari
        swe mus malanans . in mikilaim rampom,
        gakrutodans . kattiwe haiþjos.
        Frumist Griutuggos . gafahanans wesun,
        galausidans aftra, . aftra gafahanans,
        afslahanans þan wiþra . waddjuns unsaros.

        Lama Nom
      • llama_nom
        ... oscilation ... involvement ... In Modern Icelandic there s a frowned-upon tendency (called þágufallssýki dative sickness ) to use the dative with
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@g...> wrote:
          >
          > Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
          > construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
          > (such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of
          oscilation
          > between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, it
          > doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
          > native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
          > Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active
          involvement
          > of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir träumt' in
          > German, I'd go for an accusative as well.


          In Modern Icelandic there's a frowned-upon tendency
          (called 'þágufallssýki' "dative sickness") to use the dative with some
          verbs that traditionally took an accusative subject. Especially where
          there are synonyms or near synonyms that do traditionally have a
          dative subject. Maybe the dative is favoured because it's the more
          common oblique subject.

          Interesting comment about accusative indicating a more active
          involvement. Possible exception: verbs to do with suffering pain or
          deprivation. In Icelandic: hunger, thirst, sickness, ticklishness,
          lack, want, desire. In Gothic: hunger, thirst, care/concern.
          Icelandic: mér er kald, NHG mir ist (es) kalt "I´m cold" (i.e. I feel
          cold); but with a more serious affliction, Icelandic: mig
          kell/kelur "I freeze, get frostbitten".

          Llama Nom
        • llama_nom
          Correction: m�r er kalt.
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 4, 2005
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            Correction: mér er kalt.



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:

            > Icelandic: mér er kald,
          • David Kiltz
            Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative of _*(ga-)môt-_ to
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 18, 2005
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              Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is
              distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative
              of _*(ga-)môt-_ 'to find room', or directly the cognate of MoE
              _moot_. _*(ga-)môt- seems to ultimately derive from PIE _*med-_ 'to
              measure (for), care, look after'. Maybe, _mætan_ belongs in the same
              group. There is a lengthened grade derivative Greek _mêdeô_ 'ponder,
              think out, decide'. Or it's derived from _*meh1-_ with a dental
              suffix, which would also explain the long vowel. Maybe, a dream was
              thought to be 'measured out, apportioned' to the dreamer. This is, of
              course, very speculative.

              As for _draugm-_, I never was very happy with the connection to the
              root _*dhreugh-_ 'deceive' etc. However, other connection don't seem
              really good.

              David

              On 04.09.2005, at 15:43, llama_nom wrote:

              > (ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
              > dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
              > wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
              > cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
              > as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
              > would be *metjan.
              > ___________________________________________
              >
              > *draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
              > be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
              > Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.
              > ___________________________________________
              >
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