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Re: Neo-gothic poem needs help

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  • llama_nom
    ... No, it s a Tibetan-Peruvian mix-up, a sort of dharmic Jeckel & Hyde (Ogden Nash?: one L a priest, two Ls a beast ). Originally tried to be Lama Nom
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 3 6:24 AM
      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@y...>
      wrote:
      > Dear llama_nom (is that anything like a pan-Romance "pick a name?")


      No, it's a Tibetan-Peruvian mix-up, a sort of dharmic Jeckel & Hyde
      (Ogden Nash?: "one L a priest, two Ls a beast"). Originally tried
      to be Lama Nom (after a name in a dream), but forgot my first
      password. But if Yahoo Groups was a spaghetti western (and who says
      it won't be one day?), then sure, I'd be that noted desperado [Me
      Llamo] Nombre, "the man with no name AND a name".



      > Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me
      of the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.



      My rule of thumb is, never rely on logic when it comes to human
      languages. Just look at what they do. The Gothic equivalent
      of "methinks" takes a dative object as in Icelandic, e.g. Mt 6,7
      þugkeiþ im "they think".



      > Cleasy & Vigfusson raise another topic: How does it conveniently
      happen that precisely those sections of Wulfila got lost?
      Coincidence? Methinks not. It's a conspiracy, that's what it is.



      I was just impressed by the showing off. It may not know the
      answer, but it knows where the answer WOULD HAVE BEEN. This in the
      days before computer searches. That's a lot of bible reading,
      methinks.



      > Second verse under construction:
      >
      > I dreamt of Greuthung warrior-men
      > Like mice in great cat-claws
      > First caught, then freed, then caught again
      > Then slain against our walls.


      Mik Griutugge draumida gadrauhtins, swe mus in mikilaim katturampom
      frumist gafahanans, þaþroh þan galausidans, þaþroh þan aftra
      gafahanans, jah afslahanans wiþra (baurgs)waddjuns unsaros.


      > Amal retention.


      Boh!

      Ll.N.
    • David Kiltz
      ... On the note of Gothic to dream . No, I can t find an attested form either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to _*draum-, draugm-_ consider derivatives
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 3 1:26 PM
        On 31.08.2005, at 01:05, Arthur Jones wrote:

        > Also, the accusative 'mik draumeith' was logical and reminded me of
        > the archaic NHG "mich duenkt" --methinks in English.

        On the note of Gothic 'to dream'. No, I can't find an attested form
        either in the Gothic corpus. However, next to _*draum-, draugm-_
        consider derivatives of PGerm. _*sweƀnaz_ (swebnaz_). In the OldEngl.
        poem 'Dream of the Rood' we find the expression "...swefna ... hwaet
        me gemaette", thus, a dream 'that met me'. So Arthur might, perhaps,
        as well consider using something like _*swibns_ as 'dream'. As for
        impersonal expressions like 'methinks/ mich dünkt', it should be
        noted that in (archaizing) NHGerman it's 'mir träumt' with dative,
        not accusative. In Icelandic it's the accusative e.g. 'mik dreymdi
        draum'. Languages are, of course, where the term applies -strictu
        sensu- logical. Otherwise, they wouldn't work. However, I don't see
        how the accusative is necessarily more 'logical' than the dative.
        Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
        construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
        (such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of oscilation
        between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, it
        doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
        native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
        Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active involvement
        of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir träumt' in
        German, I'd go for an accusative as well.

        -David
      • llama_nom
        Good suggestion, David. Gmc. *swebna- (cognate with Gk. hupnos) is neuter in OE, but masculine in ON, OS and OHG. Means both sleep and dream . Often
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 4 6:43 AM
          Good suggestion, David. Gmc. *swebna- (cognate with Gk. hupnos) is
          neuter in OE, but masculine in ON, OS and OHG. Means both "sleep"
          and "dream". Often plural in OE.

          SYNTAX in ON. http://www.lexis.hi.is/corpus/leit.pl?
          lemma=svefn&ofl=&leita=1&flokkar=Fornrit&m1=svefn+svefns+svefninn+sve
          fnsins+svefninum+svefni&l1=Leita&lmax=1

          er þér svefns "thou dreamest", "you´re dreaming"


          SYNTAX in OE.

          ic geseah on swefne "I saw in a dream"; ic geseah swefn "I saw a
          dream"; for ðære gesihðe ðe he on ðæm swefne geseah "for that vision
          which he saw in the dreams"; him wearþ on slæpe swefen ætywed "he
          was shown a vision in his sleep"; þa stod him sum mon æt þurh
          swefn "then some man stood by him in his dream"; Hi slepon
          swæfnum "they slept with dreams" (dormierunt somnum); oðer swefen
          hine mætte "another dream came to him".

          swefnian, 1. with acc. of dreamer "to appear to someone in a dream";
          2. with nom. of dreamer "to dream". WHAT CASE IS THE DREAM?

          (ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
          dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
          wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
          cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
          as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
          would be *metjan.
          ___________________________________________

          *draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
          be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
          Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.
          ___________________________________________

          Things our Gothic Ranilo fraujo, might say:

          Ik in swibna siun . gasahv ubils.

          Mis swibn warþ . þanei saizlep ataugida.

          Mik militonde þar . gametida hari
          swe mus malanans . in mikilaim rampom,
          gakrutodans . kattiwe haiþjos.
          Frumist Griutuggos . gafahanans wesun,
          galausidans aftra, . aftra gafahanans,
          afslahanans þan wiþra . waddjuns unsaros.

          Lama Nom
        • llama_nom
          ... oscilation ... involvement ... In Modern Icelandic there s a frowned-upon tendency (called þágufallssýki dative sickness ) to use the dative with
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 4 7:26 AM
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@g...> wrote:
            >
            > Germanic languages feature a certain kind of 'impersonal'
            > construction with rather complex underlying linguistic structures
            > (such as agentivity, focus etc.). There is a good deal of
            oscilation
            > between the use of accusative and dative in such cases. However, it
            > doesn't seem to be arbitrary but, at least to my sensitivity as a
            > native speaker of German, there are subtle differences in meaning.
            > Roughly speaking, the accusative indicates a more active
            involvement
            > of the logical subject. Personally, although it's 'mir träumt' in
            > German, I'd go for an accusative as well.


            In Modern Icelandic there's a frowned-upon tendency
            (called 'þágufallssýki' "dative sickness") to use the dative with some
            verbs that traditionally took an accusative subject. Especially where
            there are synonyms or near synonyms that do traditionally have a
            dative subject. Maybe the dative is favoured because it's the more
            common oblique subject.

            Interesting comment about accusative indicating a more active
            involvement. Possible exception: verbs to do with suffering pain or
            deprivation. In Icelandic: hunger, thirst, sickness, ticklishness,
            lack, want, desire. In Gothic: hunger, thirst, care/concern.
            Icelandic: mér er kald, NHG mir ist (es) kalt "I´m cold" (i.e. I feel
            cold); but with a more serious affliction, Icelandic: mig
            kell/kelur "I freeze, get frostbitten".

            Llama Nom
          • llama_nom
            Correction: m�r er kalt.
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 4 7:30 AM
              Correction: mér er kalt.



              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:

              > Icelandic: mér er kald,
            • David Kiltz
              Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative of _*(ga-)môt-_ to
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 18 1:53 AM
                Thank you for your enlightening remarks. Yes, indeed _(ge)mætan_ is
                distinct from OE _metan_. My bad. The latter is clearly a derivative
                of _*(ga-)môt-_ 'to find room', or directly the cognate of MoE
                _moot_. _*(ga-)môt- seems to ultimately derive from PIE _*med-_ 'to
                measure (for), care, look after'. Maybe, _mætan_ belongs in the same
                group. There is a lengthened grade derivative Greek _mêdeô_ 'ponder,
                think out, decide'. Or it's derived from _*meh1-_ with a dental
                suffix, which would also explain the long vowel. Maybe, a dream was
                thought to be 'measured out, apportioned' to the dreamer. This is, of
                course, very speculative.

                As for _draugm-_, I never was very happy with the connection to the
                root _*dhreugh-_ 'deceive' etc. However, other connection don't seem
                really good.

                David

                On 04.09.2005, at 15:43, llama_nom wrote:

                > (ge)mætan (long æ), "to dream", impersonal with dat. or acc. of
                > dreamer AND ACC. OF DREAM, e.g. swa his man-drihten gemæted
                > wearþ "as his lord had dreamed". Origin of this verb unknown; no
                > cognates according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Not the same
                > as metan "meet" (Go. (ga)motjan). The Gothic form, if it existed,
                > would be *metjan.
                > ___________________________________________
                >
                > *draugm- is based on an idea of Kluge, who suggested the word could
                > be related to ON draugr, an undead being, and German
                > Trug "deception". But there is no sign of /g/ in the attested forms.
                > ___________________________________________
                >
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